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  1. - Top - End - #1471
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Though one can question why a sect of monks even has a weapon that can so easily violate their own principles, given a lightsabers potential destructive capabilities like setting things on fire, seems contrary to their whole "harmony with the universe" thing and they'd be better served just using a weapon thats basically a staff but can somehow withstand lightsabers so that they can use any part of it to defend against one, but lets remember that Star Wars is all an elaborate excuse to have cool space dogfights and lightsaber duels on a big screen. the morality stuff is just there to make you root for blue, nothing deeper.
    The Jedi use lightsabers because to master such a dangerous weapon requires enormous amount of discipline and restraint.
    Is something I just made up.
    The Sith use lightsabers because it cuts through fools like nobody's business.
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  2. - Top - End - #1472
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    The Sith fighting defensively as well is kind of my point.

    Peelee brought up the destructive potential of lightsabers as a counterpoint too my argument that Dorce lightning is inherently Darkside because it has only harmful applications under normal circumstances.

    I countered with the Lightsaber's defensive applications and the fact that everyone fights defensively with them.

    As for why the Jedi have them? They're not just monks, they're peacekeepers.

    What's a better way to keep the piece than with a weapon that bypasses most defenses while allowing you to easily parry, block, deflect, or reflect the troublemaker's own weapon.

    And if someone is too dangerous to bring in alive? It might not be pretty, but it'll be quick.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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  3. - Top - End - #1473
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    What's a better way to keep the piece than with a weapon that bypasses most defenses while allowing you to easily parry, block, deflect, or reflect the troublemaker's own weapon.
    Sitting at a table with the parties involved.

    If things have gone tonthe point where you're swinging a weapon around, you've failed as a peacekeeper.
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  4. - Top - End - #1474
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The Sith fighting defensively as well is kind of my point.

    Peelee brought up the destructive potential of lightsabers as a counterpoint too my argument that Dorce lightning is inherently Darkside because it has only harmful applications under normal circumstances.

    I countered with the Lightsaber's defensive applications and the fact that everyone fights defensively with them.

    As for why the Jedi have them? They're not just monks, they're peacekeepers.

    What's a better way to keep the piece than with a weapon that bypasses most defenses while allowing you to easily parry, block, deflect, or reflect the troublemaker's own weapon.

    And if someone is too dangerous to bring in alive? It might not be pretty, but it'll be quick.
    ah yes. "Keep the peace". with deadly force. All your enemies dead in half burnt bloody corpses with no one to disagree with you, real peaceful.

    everyone fights defensively Rater, because Star Wars is a movie franchise trying to keep a certain rating for its ideal audience. if they happened logically, we'd quickly get more things like Darth Maul getting cut in half but with more blood. Thats why the prequels threw so many droids at jedi to get around having to having to depict that.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2021-05-27 at 03:02 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #1475
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Sitting at a table with the parties involved.

    If things have gone tonthe point where you're swinging a weapon around, you've failed as a peacekeeper.
    I was using "keep the peace" euphemistically.

    Think of it more like a Police or Military action someone is intent on violence and can't or won't be walked down, so you send in someone with appropriate weapons and training either to deescalate the situation or... manage the situation.

    Granted, the Jedi also engage in negotiation on behalf of the republic, but if you're sending the space-wizards who deliberately alienate themselves from political matters and who all carry dangerous weapons to keep the peace, it's pretty clear that just talking it out has failed.

    Requesting Jedi intervention in diplomatic matters is, at best, flashing the stick as you try to entice the other side with a carrot and at worst you fully expecting the other side to turn violent and are preemptively sending people who can handle it in case it does.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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  6. - Top - End - #1476
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Sitting at a table with the parties involved.

    If things have gone to the point where you're swinging a weapon around, you've failed as a peacekeeper.
    You could also build a big, spherical... let's call it a planetoid base... with a huge, huge weapon that could obliterate planets.

    Deflect that, Obi.

    My theory for why everyone fights defensively: they like their body parts. And you can easily lose some with a sharp sword if you don't know what you're doing, so why risk with a feather-light-cut-through-with-no-resistance lightsaber...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kol Korran View Post
    Instead of having an adventure, from which a cool unexpected story may rise, you had a story, with an adventure built and designed to enable the story, but also ensure (or close to ensure) it happens.

  7. - Top - End - #1477
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The Sith fighting defensively as well is kind of my point.

    Peelee brought up the destructive potential of lightsabers as a counterpoint too my argument that Dorce lightning is inherently Darkside because it has only harmful applications under normal circumstances.
    Yes, the deadly potential of lightsabers was a counterpoint. An additional counterpoint was that Force lightning does not only have harmful applications. Both counterpoints work in tandem.
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  8. - Top - End - #1478
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by lacco36 View Post
    Deflect that, Obi.
    So I get your point, and I never saw the crunch for this, but apparently in the Wizards of the Coast D20 Star Wars RPG, the rules for the "catch energy and send it back" Force Power verses the stats for the Death Star, means that it is entirely possible for a powerful enough force sensitive to "deflect that."

    At a high enough level, they'd still have gas in the tank after.



    Yeah, turns out that Vader wasn't speaking metaphorically.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Meteor
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  9. - Top - End - #1479
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I was using "keep the peace" euphemistically.

    Think of it more like a Police or Military action someone is intent on violence and can't or won't be walked down, so you send in someone with appropriate weapons and training either to deescalate the situation or... manage the situation.

    Granted, the Jedi also engage in negotiation on behalf of the republic, but if you're sending the space-wizards who deliberately alienate themselves from political matters and who all carry dangerous weapons to keep the peace, it's pretty clear that just talking it out has failed.

    Requesting Jedi intervention in diplomatic matters is, at best, flashing the stick as you try to entice the other side with a carrot and at worst you fully expecting the other side to turn violent and are preemptively sending people who can handle it in case it does.
    I mean at that point, the Jedi are just the Republic's elite thugs and the separatists have a point about breaking away.

    like that basically makes Jedi a secret police whose purpose is to just enforce the existing social order without considering everyone's feelings on the matter. perhaps the transition from Republic to Empire wasn't as big of a leap as one would think if thats how the Republic dealt with matters.
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  10. - Top - End - #1480
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    So I get your point, and I never saw the crunch for this, but apparently in the Wizards of the Coast D20 Star Wars RPG, the rules for the "catch energy and send it back" Force Power verses the stats for the Death Star, means that it is entirely possible for a powerful enough force sensitive to "deflect that."

    At a high enough level, they'd still have gas in the tank after.

    Yeah, turns out that Vader wasn't speaking metaphorically.
    Well, that's only because he saw the rulebook and had his d20 ready .

    At that point I wonder why Palpatine did not just catch and send whatever shiny energy stuff he fell into at Luke. Of course, prequels could have been just Luke's pre-death imagination.
    Call me Laco or Ladislav (if you need to be formal). Avatar comes from the talented linklele.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kol Korran View Post
    Instead of having an adventure, from which a cool unexpected story may rise, you had a story, with an adventure built and designed to enable the story, but also ensure (or close to ensure) it happens.

  11. - Top - End - #1481
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I mean at that point, the Jedi are just the Republic's elite thugs and the separatists have a point about breaking away.
    Kind of, yes.

    The problem isn't what they wanted, it's what they were doing to get it.

    By the time other prequels the Galactic Republic had become bloated and corrupt and the Jedi had become set in their ways and alienated to the outside world and Palpatine was able to use this to his advantage to manipulate various factions into escalating conflicts which he was able to use to get into a position of increasingly greater power and authority while continuing to dew distrust.

    And all anyone else involved did was be themselves.

    The Jedi in specific... By the time of the prequels, they were so isolated and focused on their own peace that they legitimately didn't understand how other people would perceive their actions(a lot of what the Jedi do is shay without context. A lot of what they do is shady in context) and it's very clear that Anakin, in particular, was badly mismanaged. The greatest example is in Revenge when Anakin goes to Yoda for advice about the visions he's having of his loved ones dying.

    Yoda tells Anakin exactly what he needs to do... But he's wrapped it up in Jedi religious believes that Anakin, as a traumatized former slave, has trouble accepting on faith, leading Anakin to misunderstand and go looking elsewhere for advice.. where he falls into Palpatine's clutches.

    But like, in The Clone Wars there's one scene, and the scene doesn't dwell on this, but in the background, there's a PSA where Chancellor Palpatine is denying the allegations that the Jedi kidnap and indoctrinate children.

    Allegations that, as far as I can tell, had never been made prior to that... And that are disturbingly close to the truth, all things considered.

    Once Palpatine became the Chancellor, all he had to do to in that game of five-dimensional three-man chess was to occasionally nudge a pice and watch his opponents put themselves in check.
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  12. - Top - End - #1482
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by lacco36 View Post
    Well, that's only because he saw the rulebook and had his d20 ready .

    At that point I wonder why Palpatine did not just catch and send whatever shiny energy stuff he fell into at Luke.
    Well that's easy; he'd have to beat the attack roll with a lightsaber by a small margin, and neither had a lightsaber nor was subjected to an attack roll by the reactor core.
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  13. - Top - End - #1483
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Once Palpatine became the Chancellor, all he had to do to in that game of five-dimensional three-man chess was to occasionally nudge a pice and watch his opponents put themselves in check.
    Being a mastermind sure is easy when good is dumb and evil has read the script, sure.
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  14. - Top - End - #1484
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    By the time other prequels the Galactic Republic had become bloated and corrupt and the Jedi had become set in their ways
    I hear this a surprisingly large amount of the time despite the movies showing us by and large the exact opposite.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-05-27 at 03:52 PM.
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Being a mastermind sure is easy when good is dumb and evil has read the script, sure.
    Metauniversal precognition is indeed handy; nothing says you know what will happen quite like actually knowing what will happen.

    Unrelated, it's time for a new thread, isn't it?
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  16. - Top - End - #1486
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Being a mastermind sure is easy when good is dumb and evil has read the script, sure.
    It's not so much that good is dumb so much that good has no reason to suspect that Evil is sitting at the breakfast table plotting against them.

    The Jedi became alienated because they believed that their work was done: The very early days of the Republic, it was ruled by the Jedi but eventually, they stepped back to become advisors and peacekeepers.

    Then centuries ago they thought the Sith were all wiped out.

    It becomes very easy to just... sit back and let the Republic take care of itself, only coming out when the Chancellor wants your wisdom or here's an incident that's escalated to the point that violence is imminent, and just focus on self-improvement and training the next generation of monks.

    When everything's perfect, you need to find ways to be productive. Without regular mental stimulation, you start to deteriorate. Complacency is one of the sources of anomie, and generations of anomie lead to the breakdown of culture and society.

    In the case of the jedi, this breakdown manifested in them being too comfortable in their ivory tower, becoming more insular and dogmatic and then they get taken by complete surprise and are willing to engage in moral compromise to solve a problem they never saw coming.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2021-05-27 at 04:02 PM.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
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    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  17. - Top - End - #1487
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    When I saw someone say every thread here devolves into a Star Wars thread, I thought they were just kidding.

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