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  1. - Top - End - #1471
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Yes, they're presented as combat.

    But look at the choreography: When Obi-Wan and Darth Vader have their final duel at the conclusion of the... Wanna say second act, of A New Hope, they're flynning.

    Obi-Wan takes a moment to twirl around for some reason.

    This is supposed to be a fight to the death but at no point does it look like they're doing anything but playing until Obi-Wan decides to let Vader kill him to buy time for Luke and Han to escape with the Princess. Only when Obi-Wan just stands there and takes it does Vader make an actual effect to harm his former master.

    Vader had to completely rebuild his fighting style from the ground up due to his injuries and because his new arms and legs were too heavy for the kinds of movements his style as a Jedi, and he'd have spent the better part of two decades studying the ways of the Sith. There's no reason for him to be fighting so defensively unless the sith also practice defensive Lightsaber forms.

    Lightsaber combat seems to e an inherently defensive discipline.
    I think you are maybe misjudging based on movie swordsmanship instead of actual swordsmanship. The duel in ANH is easily the most realistic in any Star Wars movie. Theyre actually watching their opponent and acting based on that instead of just swinging wildly to hit the blade like they do in the prequels.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2021-05-27 at 12:54 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #1472
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Jedi learn restraint, so it's likely that a Jedi who tried could develop a version of Force Lightning that delivered less energy and thus was more practical for charging. eBay confuses me is why messing with people's minds to make them think that these aren't the droids you're looking for isn't a Dark Side power. I think it's because originally there was no such thing as Light Side/Dark Side powers, as it's only at the end of the OT that anybody displays a unique ability so it's not hard to assume that you just have to be really skilled to use lightning, not necessarily Dark Side. If course then the EU came along and agreed the Light Side into a perfectly functional Normal/Corrupted dynamic.

    My main issue with the ANH duel us that there's a few points where they're clearly not standing close enough together to hit each other, but I'll admit that in at least one instance Obi-Wan is clearly staying out of Vader's reach. I'm not sure Obi-Wan even intends to kill Vader, even if we go with the original interpretation and not what later plot developments added. He knows he's out of practice, and he knows that Vader has had combat experience recently even if he didn't have to draw his lightsider, I'd say that the entire duel is affected by Obi-Wan just trying to delay Vader until the others can escape.

    Plus, well, they're two old men, and are noticeably past their prime. Even if they're only in their late forties or early fifties have either actually been able to have a proper duel in a decade?
    Last edited by Anonymouswizard; 2021-05-27 at 01:06 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #1473
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Yes, they're presented as combat.

    But look at the choreography: When Obi-Wan and Darth Vader have their final duel at the conclusion of the... Wanna say second act, of A New Hope, they're flynning.

    Obi-Wan takes a moment to twirl around for some reason.

    This is supposed to be a fight to the death but at no point does it look like they're doing anything but playing until Obi-Wan decides to let Vader kill him to buy time for Luke and Han to escape with the Princess. Only when Obi-Wan just stands there and takes it does Vader make an actual effect to harm his former master.

    Vader had to completely rebuild his fighting style from the ground up due to his injuries and because his new arms and legs were too heavy for the kinds of movements his style as a Jedi, and he'd have spent the better part of two decades studying the ways of the Sith. There's no reason for him to be fighting so defensively unless the sith also practice defensive Lightsaber forms.

    Lightsaber combat seems to e an inherently defensive discipline.
    In the original Star Wars, they were both old men (albeit one more machine than man) fighting as old men. In ESB, Vader was toying with Luke, deliberately trying to not kill or hurt Luke too much. In ROTJ, Luke ends up wielding the lightsabers as a cudgel, eventually just hammering and hammering at Vader.

    Thebare not "lightsabers forms". These are not examples of fluff that Lucas didn't create until decades later. These are choreography by a swordmaster designed to be combative. This is very unlike TPM, where it is effectively a dance and the sabers hardly ever swing towards a body but rather towards where the enemy saber.

    All of which is largely immaterial to "force powers don't really discriminate between light side and dark side; the intent of use has morality, not the power itself", which is similar to the lightsaber in general, and which was mostly your original point (though youh left Star Wars an an exception when I think it should have not been).
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    As for lightseber, Ben comment "weapon for more civilized Times" was aimed to show that sword altugh a weapon is not for kiling, if you want to kill your opponent blaster is better, sword is good for intimidation and subdueing your opponent.

    Edit: ohh and i would not read to much into cjhoreography of original trilogy, Ive watch An interview of Mark Hamil, when he spółkę about how he was amezed by fighter scenes in phanom menace, as in His time the lighsabres waere so heave that there was no Way they could do any of that (due to limitations od motion capture at that time)
    Last edited by asda fasda; 2021-05-27 at 01:17 PM.

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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    All of which is largely immaterial to "force powers don't really discriminate between light side and dark side; the intent of use has morality, not the power itself",.
    You're the one that brought up lightsabers.

    Specifically to counter my point as to why Star Wars is an exception: They explain exactly why force Lightning is almost exclusively a darkside power: Becuase under normal circumstances it has purely destructive applications and because it is generated by using the force to turn your will to harm someone into electricity.

    With the way the Lighrsider/Darkside distinction is made(The Lightside is about controlling your feelings and feeling a peaceful oneness with the Force while the Darkside is about riding your passions and letting your emotions run wile in order to use them to acquire raw power at the risk of damage to your mind and body) it makes sense that it would be difficult, even impossible, for a Lightsider to generate lightning unless they were dabbling in the Darkside.

    You then argued that Lightsabers have purely destructive applications, to which I replied that the lightsaber has innately defensive applications as well, and started the point about Lightsaber duels, whether the combatants are Jedi or Sith, seem to be done defensively.

    And citing Luke, at most,adds a 'properly taught' Rider. Luke was thaught how to block blaster bolts and he was tight how to use the Force, but as far as we know he had to figure out actually fighting with a Lightsaber on his own.
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    You're the one that brought up lightsabers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    All of which is largely immaterial to "force powers don't really discriminate between light side and dark side; the intent of use has morality, not the power itself", which is similar to the lightsaber in general
    Bolding mine*. I brought up lightsabers, which is relevant. You brought up fight choreography minutae, which I vew as irrelevant (not to mention wildly inconsistent).

    As for the "explanation" of why it's a dark side power, let me just say that I do not give it anywhere near the weight that you seem to.


    ETA: Also, I did not argue at all for "purely destructive applications" of lightsabers. I did argue for non-purely-destructive-applications of Force Lightning, with a source to back up my claim. You seem to have dismissed it out of hand as not being realistic, in which case we could dismiss all Force powers out of hand.


    *well, technically, the whole thing mine, but you know what I mean.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-05-27 at 01:46 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #1477
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I should really play those games sometime.
    Yeah you should.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I would be remiss not to point out that this is not the case in Jedi Knight; you can choose freely between light-side and dark-side powers until the pivotal moment where your prior actions and choices determine which side you're dedicated to...at which point you get the really fancy power associated with that side of the Force and (IIRC) any points you've allocated to the opposite side are released for you to reallocate. There's also a comment in the game somewhere about how drawing on the both sides of the Force is a sign of youth or inexperience or something.

    (Dark Forces doesn't involve itself with the Force at all, IIRC)
    Well, I haven't played those games, so I can't say.

    Same; I need to come up with the time to dedicate to playing them, but they're pretty low on the long list of things I should come up with the time to dedicate to.
    I'd recommend watching the end of Soviet's Womble Jedi Outcast video if you need further convincing. I'd link it here, but it has profanities.
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Furthermore, all formal lightsaber combat in the series is closer to fencing and kendo, even flynning, than to traditional swordplay. In a proper duel, you're striking at the target's sword while parrying their own strikes until they're tired enough to give you an opening, rather than going in for the kill right away.
    ...what is your source? Especially regarding "a proper duel".

    Because the advice you presented is exactly something for the fencing salle, but I would apply it very carefully in a duel.

    In a proper duel, you are essentially fighting for your life - and if you know your enemy well, and you know their technique is worse than yours, you can afford things like this, but they may impale you by essentially throwing themselves at you (risking a wound for wound), sword first (there are some accounts of skilled swordsmen being wounded by amateurs - after all, there is the famous saying). And if you do not know their level of skill - do you want to give them the advantage of getting to know your style?

    So yes, when you have a polite sparring, you can afford to do so - and if you know your opponent. For example, German schools usually advised attack as a form of defense - and from my limited knowledge, they were not alone.

    And on personal note, as someone who participated in light sparring with baroque sidesword vs. rapier that had a sharp tip (we did not know how sharp at that point), once you get the first scratch across ribs, pleasantries go aside.
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by lacco36 View Post
    Because the advice you presented is exactly something for the fencing salle, but I would apply it very carefully in a duel.
    That wasn't advice.

    That was a description of a lightsaber duel.

    Pay attention. When they're not flailing randomly, they're aiming at each other's blades instead of the other combatant and/or fighting very defensively.
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    That wasn't advice.

    That was a description of a lightsaber duel.

    Pay attention. When they're not flailing randomly, they're aiming at each other's blades instead of the other combatant and/or fighting very defensively.
    Well, then ignore my previous statement.

    Lightsaber duels are lightsaber duels. Not to be confused with combat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kol Korran View Post
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by lacco36 View Post
    Well, then ignore my previous statement.

    Lightsaber duels are lightsaber duels. Not to be confused with combat
    They are actually mating dances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    That wasn't advice.

    That was a description of a lightsaber duel.

    Pay attention. When they're not flailing randomly, they're aiming at each other's blades instead of the other combatant and/or fighting very defensively.
    Yeah but the Sith are doing that to.

    Whose philosophy are directly opposite of the Jedi and have been around long enough to come up with their own tradition and methods to counteract how Jedi do it. Those movements are not actual good combat, they're just for show for an audience that doesn't know how swordfighting works.

    like, a lightsaber by rights, shouldn't even be held in two hands, thats just a katana holdover. the entire weapon, weight-wise is nothing but a handle, meaning its incredibly light for something so destructive. the reason you hold swords in two hands is because they weigh enough that you need both of them to direct the a blade that would otherwise be unwieldy and has the length to make up for it in reach, with lightsabers thats so unneeded as to be detrimental to fighting effectively with such a weapon, because really lightsabers by rights should just be Rapier/Actual Saber Combat For Keeps: all the fun of quickly keeping your foe at arms length and getting stabbed, but with added painful heat. you could make the Jedi move like swashbucklers and it'd both be more accurate and still cinematic and cool to see as things like Zorro or Pirates of the Caribbean demonstrate. and if you want to keep the Jedi defensive, show them trying to do disarming tactics and whatnot.

    Though one can question why a sect of monks even has a weapon that can so easily violate their own principles, given a lightsabers potential destructive capabilities like setting things on fire, seems contrary to their whole "harmony with the universe" thing and they'd be better served just using a weapon thats basically a staff but can somehow withstand lightsabers so that they can use any part of it to defend against one, but lets remember that Star Wars is all an elaborate excuse to have cool space dogfights and lightsaber duels on a big screen. the morality stuff is just there to make you root for blue, nothing deeper.
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    They are actually mating dances.
    I always wondered how Jedi raves looked like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Though one can question why a sect of monks even has a weapon that can so easily violate their own principles, given a lightsabers potential destructive capabilities like setting things on fire, seems contrary to their whole "harmony with the universe" thing and they'd be better served just using a weapon thats basically a staff but can somehow withstand lightsabers so that they can use any part of it to defend against one, but lets remember that Star Wars is all an elaborate excuse to have cool space dogfights and lightsaber duels on a big screen. the morality stuff is just there to make you root for blue, nothing deeper.
    Because nothing says "harmony with the universe" as a weapon that cuts through meat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kol Korran View Post
    Instead of having an adventure, from which a cool unexpected story may rise, you had a story, with an adventure built and designed to enable the story, but also ensure (or close to ensure) it happens.

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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Though one can question why a sect of monks even has a weapon that can so easily violate their own principles, given a lightsabers potential destructive capabilities like setting things on fire, seems contrary to their whole "harmony with the universe" thing and they'd be better served just using a weapon thats basically a staff but can somehow withstand lightsabers so that they can use any part of it to defend against one, but lets remember that Star Wars is all an elaborate excuse to have cool space dogfights and lightsaber duels on a big screen. the morality stuff is just there to make you root for blue, nothing deeper.
    The Jedi use lightsabers because to master such a dangerous weapon requires enormous amount of discipline and restraint.
    Is something I just made up.
    The Sith use lightsabers because it cuts through fools like nobody's business.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    The Sith fighting defensively as well is kind of my point.

    Peelee brought up the destructive potential of lightsabers as a counterpoint too my argument that Dorce lightning is inherently Darkside because it has only harmful applications under normal circumstances.

    I countered with the Lightsaber's defensive applications and the fact that everyone fights defensively with them.

    As for why the Jedi have them? They're not just monks, they're peacekeepers.

    What's a better way to keep the piece than with a weapon that bypasses most defenses while allowing you to easily parry, block, deflect, or reflect the troublemaker's own weapon.

    And if someone is too dangerous to bring in alive? It might not be pretty, but it'll be quick.
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    What's a better way to keep the piece than with a weapon that bypasses most defenses while allowing you to easily parry, block, deflect, or reflect the troublemaker's own weapon.
    Sitting at a table with the parties involved.

    If things have gone tonthe point where you're swinging a weapon around, you've failed as a peacekeeper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The Sith fighting defensively as well is kind of my point.

    Peelee brought up the destructive potential of lightsabers as a counterpoint too my argument that Dorce lightning is inherently Darkside because it has only harmful applications under normal circumstances.

    I countered with the Lightsaber's defensive applications and the fact that everyone fights defensively with them.

    As for why the Jedi have them? They're not just monks, they're peacekeepers.

    What's a better way to keep the piece than with a weapon that bypasses most defenses while allowing you to easily parry, block, deflect, or reflect the troublemaker's own weapon.

    And if someone is too dangerous to bring in alive? It might not be pretty, but it'll be quick.
    ah yes. "Keep the peace". with deadly force. All your enemies dead in half burnt bloody corpses with no one to disagree with you, real peaceful.

    everyone fights defensively Rater, because Star Wars is a movie franchise trying to keep a certain rating for its ideal audience. if they happened logically, we'd quickly get more things like Darth Maul getting cut in half but with more blood. Thats why the prequels threw so many droids at jedi to get around having to having to depict that.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2021-05-27 at 03:02 PM.
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Sitting at a table with the parties involved.

    If things have gone tonthe point where you're swinging a weapon around, you've failed as a peacekeeper.
    I was using "keep the peace" euphemistically.

    Think of it more like a Police or Military action someone is intent on violence and can't or won't be walked down, so you send in someone with appropriate weapons and training either to deescalate the situation or... manage the situation.

    Granted, the Jedi also engage in negotiation on behalf of the republic, but if you're sending the space-wizards who deliberately alienate themselves from political matters and who all carry dangerous weapons to keep the peace, it's pretty clear that just talking it out has failed.

    Requesting Jedi intervention in diplomatic matters is, at best, flashing the stick as you try to entice the other side with a carrot and at worst you fully expecting the other side to turn violent and are preemptively sending people who can handle it in case it does.
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Sitting at a table with the parties involved.

    If things have gone to the point where you're swinging a weapon around, you've failed as a peacekeeper.
    You could also build a big, spherical... let's call it a planetoid base... with a huge, huge weapon that could obliterate planets.

    Deflect that, Obi.

    My theory for why everyone fights defensively: they like their body parts. And you can easily lose some with a sharp sword if you don't know what you're doing, so why risk with a feather-light-cut-through-with-no-resistance lightsaber...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kol Korran View Post
    Instead of having an adventure, from which a cool unexpected story may rise, you had a story, with an adventure built and designed to enable the story, but also ensure (or close to ensure) it happens.

  20. - Top - End - #1490
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The Sith fighting defensively as well is kind of my point.

    Peelee brought up the destructive potential of lightsabers as a counterpoint too my argument that Dorce lightning is inherently Darkside because it has only harmful applications under normal circumstances.
    Yes, the deadly potential of lightsabers was a counterpoint. An additional counterpoint was that Force lightning does not only have harmful applications. Both counterpoints work in tandem.
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by lacco36 View Post
    Deflect that, Obi.
    So I get your point, and I never saw the crunch for this, but apparently in the Wizards of the Coast D20 Star Wars RPG, the rules for the "catch energy and send it back" Force Power verses the stats for the Death Star, means that it is entirely possible for a powerful enough force sensitive to "deflect that."

    At a high enough level, they'd still have gas in the tank after.



    Yeah, turns out that Vader wasn't speaking metaphorically.
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I was using "keep the peace" euphemistically.

    Think of it more like a Police or Military action someone is intent on violence and can't or won't be walked down, so you send in someone with appropriate weapons and training either to deescalate the situation or... manage the situation.

    Granted, the Jedi also engage in negotiation on behalf of the republic, but if you're sending the space-wizards who deliberately alienate themselves from political matters and who all carry dangerous weapons to keep the peace, it's pretty clear that just talking it out has failed.

    Requesting Jedi intervention in diplomatic matters is, at best, flashing the stick as you try to entice the other side with a carrot and at worst you fully expecting the other side to turn violent and are preemptively sending people who can handle it in case it does.
    I mean at that point, the Jedi are just the Republic's elite thugs and the separatists have a point about breaking away.

    like that basically makes Jedi a secret police whose purpose is to just enforce the existing social order without considering everyone's feelings on the matter. perhaps the transition from Republic to Empire wasn't as big of a leap as one would think if thats how the Republic dealt with matters.
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    So I get your point, and I never saw the crunch for this, but apparently in the Wizards of the Coast D20 Star Wars RPG, the rules for the "catch energy and send it back" Force Power verses the stats for the Death Star, means that it is entirely possible for a powerful enough force sensitive to "deflect that."

    At a high enough level, they'd still have gas in the tank after.

    Yeah, turns out that Vader wasn't speaking metaphorically.
    Well, that's only because he saw the rulebook and had his d20 ready .

    At that point I wonder why Palpatine did not just catch and send whatever shiny energy stuff he fell into at Luke. Of course, prequels could have been just Luke's pre-death imagination.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kol Korran View Post
    Instead of having an adventure, from which a cool unexpected story may rise, you had a story, with an adventure built and designed to enable the story, but also ensure (or close to ensure) it happens.

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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I mean at that point, the Jedi are just the Republic's elite thugs and the separatists have a point about breaking away.
    Kind of, yes.

    The problem isn't what they wanted, it's what they were doing to get it.

    By the time other prequels the Galactic Republic had become bloated and corrupt and the Jedi had become set in their ways and alienated to the outside world and Palpatine was able to use this to his advantage to manipulate various factions into escalating conflicts which he was able to use to get into a position of increasingly greater power and authority while continuing to dew distrust.

    And all anyone else involved did was be themselves.

    The Jedi in specific... By the time of the prequels, they were so isolated and focused on their own peace that they legitimately didn't understand how other people would perceive their actions(a lot of what the Jedi do is shay without context. A lot of what they do is shady in context) and it's very clear that Anakin, in particular, was badly mismanaged. The greatest example is in Revenge when Anakin goes to Yoda for advice about the visions he's having of his loved ones dying.

    Yoda tells Anakin exactly what he needs to do... But he's wrapped it up in Jedi religious believes that Anakin, as a traumatized former slave, has trouble accepting on faith, leading Anakin to misunderstand and go looking elsewhere for advice.. where he falls into Palpatine's clutches.

    But like, in The Clone Wars there's one scene, and the scene doesn't dwell on this, but in the background, there's a PSA where Chancellor Palpatine is denying the allegations that the Jedi kidnap and indoctrinate children.

    Allegations that, as far as I can tell, had never been made prior to that... And that are disturbingly close to the truth, all things considered.

    Once Palpatine became the Chancellor, all he had to do to in that game of five-dimensional three-man chess was to occasionally nudge a pice and watch his opponents put themselves in check.
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by lacco36 View Post
    Well, that's only because he saw the rulebook and had his d20 ready .

    At that point I wonder why Palpatine did not just catch and send whatever shiny energy stuff he fell into at Luke.
    Well that's easy; he'd have to beat the attack roll with a lightsaber by a small margin, and neither had a lightsaber nor was subjected to an attack roll by the reactor core.
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Once Palpatine became the Chancellor, all he had to do to in that game of five-dimensional three-man chess was to occasionally nudge a pice and watch his opponents put themselves in check.
    Being a mastermind sure is easy when good is dumb and evil has read the script, sure.
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  27. - Top - End - #1497
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    By the time other prequels the Galactic Republic had become bloated and corrupt and the Jedi had become set in their ways
    I hear this a surprisingly large amount of the time despite the movies showing us by and large the exact opposite.
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    Seconded.

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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Being a mastermind sure is easy when good is dumb and evil has read the script, sure.
    Metauniversal precognition is indeed handy; nothing says you know what will happen quite like actually knowing what will happen.

    Unrelated, it's time for a new thread, isn't it?
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Being a mastermind sure is easy when good is dumb and evil has read the script, sure.
    It's not so much that good is dumb so much that good has no reason to suspect that Evil is sitting at the breakfast table plotting against them.

    The Jedi became alienated because they believed that their work was done: The very early days of the Republic, it was ruled by the Jedi but eventually, they stepped back to become advisors and peacekeepers.

    Then centuries ago they thought the Sith were all wiped out.

    It becomes very easy to just... sit back and let the Republic take care of itself, only coming out when the Chancellor wants your wisdom or here's an incident that's escalated to the point that violence is imminent, and just focus on self-improvement and training the next generation of monks.

    When everything's perfect, you need to find ways to be productive. Without regular mental stimulation, you start to deteriorate. Complacency is one of the sources of anomie, and generations of anomie lead to the breakdown of culture and society.

    In the case of the jedi, this breakdown manifested in them being too comfortable in their ivory tower, becoming more insular and dogmatic and then they get taken by complete surprise and are willing to engage in moral compromise to solve a problem they never saw coming.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2021-05-27 at 04:02 PM.
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    Default Re: A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

    When I saw someone say every thread here devolves into a Star Wars thread, I thought they were just kidding.

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