A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

[Keltest]

So, it's not a morality system, then? Because that sounds like a relationship system.

You can kind of ferret out the intended moral implications of your actions by watching who approves of what. Alastair, Wynn and Leliana are all basically moral people who approve of good things and disapprove of evil things, and have few strong opinions that fall outside that. Likewise Morrigan approves largely of evil things (which is somewhat different from her actual characterization, and one of the few flaws ive found with the system, probably because she was specifically designed to be the evil approval) and disapproves of Good things. All the rest are fairly neutrally aligned, approving and disapproving of things based largely on their personal hangups about stuff. Zevran has few strong opinions on anything you do, for example, but greatly approves of having an open mind to many things and a certain amount of pragmatism. He also takes a dim view of racism in general, and against elves in particular, but has no respect for honor or authority for their own sakes and doesnt care for people who try to invoke them.

[Mystic Muse]

There is a good reason that i no longer have any save files with high Kreia approval, and its not because its especially hard to get. She's just awful and deserves to be told so to her face.

Oh, agreed, I just don't get the point of the only choices available resulting in ticking her off. I'm not saying I care about her approval, I just inherently dislike choices that don't actually matter, because the result is always the same.

Some notes.

She was saying he should get sensitivity readers.

Yeah. I'd rather not be represented in a story than have bad representation in a story. Especially because bad representation can be more damaging than no representation.

[Lord Raziere]

Eh, Bugsnax was just depressing, creepy and terrifying to me. not a fan.

@ Fyraltari: Really dude? Fine you can say that, but if you do good actions, your basically going to end up bringing along the same three characters every time: Alistair, Wynne, Leliana.

[Rater202]

You're not wrong that it should be addressed casually, like it's not a big deal, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have multiple LGBTA characters, and that shouldn't mean they exist PURELY by assumption. Explicit confirmation is good- even if it's so much as using they pronouns and maybe bringing it up once or twice.

explicit confirmation isn't the same as it bing brought p all the time though.

And if the goal is "diversity" then you want a diverse cast of characters. That means not having the cast dominated by people of any one class, creed, sex, gender, or orientation.

I may have worded that poorly, but I'm just saying, if the goal is "diversity" rather than "representation."

...Like, I recall a fanfic discussion thread where someone mentioned dropping a fic because it advertised itself as having great LGBT diversity... But the fic proper just had every single named character being a homosexual. That's not "diversity," that's just as uniform as everyone being heterosexual.

and this is also assuming that LGBT issues aren't the focus of the story. If the story is about the trials and tribulations of the manager of a nightclub that caters to one or more LGBT groups or is a coming of age story involving the protagonist realizing why they've always felt "different" then obviously you need to give it more thought.

If the cast is huge then that's a different situation as well. If you've got a huge ensemble cast and only one or two characters are LGBT then even if those characters are well-rounded and dynamic... If the cast is big enough that there should realistically be multiple LGBT characters then yeah, do multiple LGBT characters.

Basically, I'm arguing against tokenism.

[Anonymouswizard]

I liked Kriex, at least before the 'Darth Traya' stuff (I really should go back to that game). I agree a lot with her attempts to break down the simplicity of morality as shown by the in-game meters, and even agree with some of her more extreme stances. There are of course significant r problems with her writing, but it's still handled much better than The Last Jedi.

Although to be fair I did leave her on the ship.

Might restart they game and actually do a Dark Side playthrough, as well as one of KotOR1.

[Lord Raziere]

I liked Kriex, at least before the 'Darth Traya' stuff (I really should go back to that game). I agree a lot with her attempts to break down the simplicity of morality as shown by the in-game meters, and even agree with some of her more extreme stances. There are of course significant r problems with her writing, but it's still handled much better than The Last Jedi.

Although to be fair I did leave her on the ship.

yeah, I agree, I still like Kreia as a character and do think she is a better criticism than Last Jedi and a probably the character I'd use to criticize the whole morality if I had the chance to write or rewrite her to be even more sophisticated in her arguments. like there are some problems with her, but I think they're fixable and while not everyone appreciates the kind of philosophical pontificating in a game, I don't think Kotor 2 has to be something everyone likes, its clearly for the people who wonder about the darker side of the Star Wars universe and want some exploration of that, which isn't for people who expect their universes to have one tone and the "Star Wars tone" to them is an unambiguous noble bright tone all the time.

[LaZodiac]

explicit confirmation isn't the same as it bing brought p all the time though.

Basically, I'm arguing against tokenism.

That's fair, and I agree.

That being said, a question; how would you rate my book on that, because there is... maybe two straight characters in the whole thing?

[Peelee]

An odd sentiment, I'd think people coming in, killing and enslaving someone's kind and killing an innocent in front of me would be enough of a declaration of war to think that the battle has been going on long before I arrived.

Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.

Just because someone does evil deeds does not mean that the deserve death. And even if they do, that does not mean that you are the one who should carry out the sentence.

Not to mention that seeing that as a declaration of war would have increased hostilities on all sides immediately without trying to find a more peaceful resolution.

[Rater202]

That's fair, and I agree.

That being said, a question; how would you rate my book on that, because there is... maybe two straight characters in the whole thing?

Honestly, it only seems to come up with three characters so it seems fine.

Your characters are also high school students, who are cliquy by nature. It makes sense that they would congregate together, and your story also takes place ina constructed fictional setting so it's your prerogative to decide how common homosexuality and transgerderism is in your world and how society feels about that as a whole and as individual subsets of society.

That, and I get the feeling that diversity isn't your primary goal. You seem to be trying to tell an urban fantasy story with a corporate conspiracy as an antagonist force with characters who just happen to be gay, bi, or ace and it really only comes up when it's relevant.

It feels natural the way you present those characters.

Think my statements as a guideline rather than a hard rule or a criticism, and specifically a guideline for if diversity is a major goal of the work.

Like, I've made characters gay or ace because I felt like it. If I was talking about including LGBT characters in general I'd be a hypocrite.

[Fyraltari]

I'm aware that this is a sympton of the game not being complete upon release, but I'm still annoyed at the "choice" at Nar Shadaa in KOtOR 2 where a guy asks you for a few cedits, and Kreia lectures you no matter what you choose.

I don't think that's because of the game's unfinished state. Kreia takes a a dialectic borderline socratic approach to mentorship. Whatever position you pick, she'll argue against, not because she necessarily disagree with you but because she wants to make sure you've thought about the why you do things and any eventual consequences and are making an informed, so-to-speak, choice. She's being a contrarian on purpose.
Which is why the only way to gain influence with her is to tell her you'll think about the points she raises. Doing a light-side playthrough and a dark one later also shows that she comes down much harder on a gratuitously cruel Exile.
She's also being a prick about it but considering

Spoiler

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she's the final boss,

I don't think you're supposed to like her that much.

You can kind of ferret out the intended moral implications of your actions by watching who approves of what. Alastair, Wynn and Leliana are all basically moral people who approve of good things and disapprove of evil things, and have few strong opinions that fall outside that. Likewise Morrigan approves largely of evil things (which is somewhat different from her actual characterization, and one of the few flaws ive found with the system, probably because she was specifically designed to be the evil approval) and disapproves of Good things. All the rest are fairly neutrally aligned, approving and disapproving of things based largely on their personal hangups about stuff. Zevran has few strong opinions on anything you do, for example, but greatly approves of having an open mind to many things and a certain amount of pragmatism. He also takes a dim view of racism in general, and against elves in particular, but has no respect for honor or authority for their own sakes and doesnt care for people who try to invoke them.

That feels kind of backward, shouldn't you be judging the characters based on the actions they approve of rather than the opposite?

Personally, as time goes on, I appreciate simple, binary good/evil choices less and less. An example I really love was in the beginning of Prey (the one by Arkane), where you stumble on a "volunteer" (human test subjects that didn't volunteer to do ****) trapped in an unstarted experiment. If you release him, he promises to give you the password to enter the nearby armoury where he says you'll find a shotgun (which you really, really need at this point of the game), but if you trigger the experiment, he'll die and you'll get some exotic material you can use to unlock new abilities (you mostly get that material from downed ennemies and at this point everything stronger than a lone mimic is probably cause for serious caution). When you look at the computer controlling the experiment you can see his judicial case, which is full of murder, human trafficking and sexually assaulting minors. But when you look at it, he guesses you are doing it and says that these files are filled with lies so that the operatives can kill the volunteers more easily. Then he admits that some of it might be true (he can't see the screen), but he's never really hurt anybody. Also, at this point of the story, you've been told that the only way to avoid mankind being exterminated and contain the alien menace is to destroy the station you're on and kill absolutely everybody onboard (yourself included). Also, also, because this is Arkane there are other ways to get inside that armoury but it's unlikely you have access to them by that point. Also, also, also, you have yourself just recently escaped from your own testing chamber (although you weren't scheduled to die and there are hints you're directly responsible for most, if not all, of the ****ed-up **** that's going on in this station).

So what is the good choice here? Letting that man live possibly dooming humanity? Letting him out while you plan to kill him later. Kill him now, to get it over with? Letting him out as a fellow prisoner and potential ally? Killing him for fear he'll betray you? Killing him because you think he deserves it? Disregarding all that and making a decision purely based which reward you'll think will be more useful moving on?
Your helper January will react to your choice but the game don't call either evil.

Spoiler

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In fact, while the game does track your decisions, it only measures if you've shown any empathy to the various NPCs, and the only way to get the "bad" ending where the game rejects you is to judt murder everybody on-sight. Show the slightest hint of compassion and the game will go "good enough!"

@ Fyraltari: Really dude? Fine you can say that

Hey, I haven't played the game.

Edit:

your basically going to end up bringing along the same three characters every time: Alistair, Wynne, Leliana.

Oh, that's a thing I've never liked in KotOR and other RPGs like it, arbitrary limitations on how many people you can have with you. If I recruit a party, it's not to have them twiddle their thumbs on the ship while Insave the universe. Why can't I take everybody along?

[Lord Raziere]

Just because someone does evil deeds does not mean that the deserve death. And even if they do, that does not mean that you are the one who should carry out the sentence.

Not to mention that seeing that as a declaration of war would have increased hostilities on all sides immediately without trying to find a more peaceful resolution.

Except:
1. This is Kashyyyk, the highest authority at the time would be Zaalbar's evil brother who is working with them to make this all happen. his response to this would "okay cool guys, keep doing whatever, I don't care". So nothing would get done. Guess who dies first before Revan kills the rest of the Czerka?

2. you kill them in the game. and there are no consequences. Czerka doesn't attack you. Zaalbar's evil brother doesn't attack you. Zaalbar himself turns out fine as long as you choose a republic wins ending, which is basically just refuse Sith Bastila's offer. and even if those two factions did attack you, that would just be speeding up what a good side player would be doing anyways.

but I guess Zaalbar's father wasn't there to take back the leader position, which means the law of the land was Zaalbars evil brother's law which said that interfering with Czerka was wrong, therefore it only became right to kill Czerka when the authority figure declared it right, and therefore the bigger killing of Czerka was right because someone with a figurative crown said so. Therefore I guess the moral of Kashyyyk's Kotor 1 story is to kill and replace the king before you kill anyone else.

That feels kind of backward, shouldn't you be judging the characters based on the actions they approve of rather than the opposite?

About that:
Me: *helps people*
[Morrigan Disapproves]
Me:*persuade merchant to lower prices for refugees*
[Morrigan Disapproves]
Me: *saves a puppy from a tree*
[Morrigan Disapproves]
Me: *cares about people*
[Morrigan Disapproves]
Me: *does anything selfless like you'd normally do in a roleplaying game*
[Morrigan Disapproves]

you kind of get the hint after the first few deeds.

[Anonymouswizard]

That's fair, and I agree.

That being said, a question; how would you rate my book on that, because there is... maybe two straight characters in the whole thing?

Ick although I suppose my writing is weird for tending towards universal pansexuality and polyamory.

Okay, joking about straight people being icky aside, I've honestly appears been under the assumption that LGBT people are more common than people tend to think of them as, especially on the middling parts of must spectrums. I also have a tendency to include explicitly bi/pan men in my work, even though I've never finished a story, as a mixture of representation and a personal annoyance at the 'all women are bisexual but no men are' trope.

I have never found the idea of a story being primarily LGBT as unrealistic, especially incidentally. Pretty much all of my direct social circle at university was, and most of my current friends are. It's just so happened that a bunch of people who aren't cis-het have ended up in the same situation, and even if we take out my own views on commonality out of it my personal experience still says it's reasonable.

[LaZodiac]

Ick although I suppose my writing is weird for tending towards universal pansexuality and polyamory.

Okay, joking about straight people being icky aside, I've honestly appears been under the assumption that LGBT people are more common than people tend to think of them as, especially on the middling parts of must spectrums. I also have a tendency to include explicitly bi/pan men in my work, even though I've never finished a story, as a mixture of representation and a personal annoyance at the 'all women are bisexual but no men are' trope.

I have never found the idea of a story being primarily LGBT as unrealistic, especially incidentally. Pretty much all of my direct social circle at university was, and most of my current friends are. It's just so happened that a bunch of people who aren't cis-het have ended up in the same situation, and even if we take out my own views on commonality out of it my personal experience still says it's reasonable.

There's nothing wrong with pansexuality and polyarmory, though I'm not sure how I'd write the latter of those. I do have pan characters, just not in the Rei times of my series just yet

Honestly with how toxic a lot of straight relationships can be, I think showcasing them is important as well. No "ah the ole ball and chain" humour here. Also, an important thing to remember is that queer people CAN be in a straight relationship, while still being queer.

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the thing about Morrigan is that she Does Not Want To Be Here. Most of the **** she approves of are things taht directly benefit her or are funny to her. She disapproves so much because she was forced on this journey and does not want to be here, so ANYTHING you do grates on her since it extends how long she has to be here. Anyone would get pissy at that.

[Peelee]

Except:
1. This is Kashyyyk, the highest authority at the time would be Zaalbar's evil brother who is working with them to make this all happen. his response to this would "okay cool guys, keep doing whatever, I don't care". So nothing would get done. Guess who dies first before Revan kills the rest of the Czerka?

2. you kill them in the game. and there are no consequences. Czerka doesn't attack you. Zaalbar's evil brother doesn't attack you. Zaalbar himself turns out fine as long as you choose a republic wins ending, which is basically just refuse Sith Bastila's offer. and even if those two factions did attack you, that would just be speeding up what a good side player would be doing anyways.

And how much of that do you know at the moment you come across the incident?

[Bartmanhomer]

Are you LGBT, or do you have several people you can talk to who are LGBT?

If the answer to both these questions is no, I would avoid doing this.

I'm not LGBT and I've so many friends who are LGBT. Why not?

[LaZodiac]

I'm not LGBT and I've so many friends who are LGBT. Why not?

She is suggesting that if you were to do this sort of writing, make sure to utilize your LGBTA friends so that you don't write something offensive and bad.

[Peelee]

I'm not LGBT and I've so many friends who are LGBT. Why not?

Let's say you've lived in New York City all your life. How well do you think you would be able to write about a farmer? Probably not very well, one would imagine. Especially if you have no farmer friends to ask about their experiences. But if you do have a lot of farmer friends, they could help with a lot of it.

[Anonymouswizard]

Let's say you've lived in New York City all your life. How well do you think you would be able to write about a farmer? Probably not very well, one would imagine. Especially if you have no farmer friends to ask about their experiences. But if you do have a lot of farmer friends, they could help with a lot of it.

Something something cue Barwick Green.

But yeah, if you don't have firsthand experience of something research is important to writing. It's my characters lean more towards engineers than fighter pilots, and why my police officer characters are so bad.

[Rater202]

Also, an important thing to remember is that queer people CAN be in a straight relationship, while still being queer.

In one of my fanfics, the main character's mother dated another woman back in college but ultimately married a man. The relationship with the woman was 100% serious on her part(on the other woman's part, not so much...)

I've considered doing a "oh, that means you weren't really bu you were just a straight girl experimenting" thing(mostly just the character mentioning that that attitude among people frustrates her) but I don't think I can write that with the amount of nuance to do it more than as a one-off mention and can't think of a place in my outline where a mention of it would work.

...And honestly, the fact that she was dead for over a year and then came back because a fight between a serial killer and a group of Nazis resulted in zombie juice being on her grave is probably more relevant in most situations.

[Lord Raziere]

And how much of that do you know at the moment you come across the incident?

ah, lets see the available dialogue in Kashyyyk's Czerka spaceport before you ever find these guys:

Spoiler: Czerka Landing Port Quotes

Show

Local fauna is amazing. If I could isolate why the trees grow so big, it would be worth more than a thousand Wookiee slaves.

The payoff from research is too much of a risk for Czerka to spend much money on it. Slaves are proven commodities.

"You're probably here with the new restraining collars. I'm not handling another shipment without them"
"Three restraining collars failed on the last shipment. The buyer was not pleased."
"You'd think they'd be grateful to leave this barbaric place."

I didn't leave Kashyyyk voluntarily. Mission must have told you how I was fleeing slavers... but there was more.

I am an exile. The slavers on Kashyyyk only took me after I was forced to leave my village home, 20 years ago.

My brother made deals with the slavers and allowed them to get a foothold. I found out and attacked him. The fight was stopped, but my father did not believe me when I told him about my brother's actions. I was made an exile, disowned by my home and people. I should not be here. They will not accept me back.

The slavers are still here... this dock is theirs. I doubt anyone has risen to try and fight. Nothing has changed. I just hope I can prove myself to my people. It will be difficult to make them listen. I just don't know.

Eli Gand: I don't concern myself with what goes on past this landing port. The Wookiees are *ahem*... very difficult to deal with. No business sense.
Carth: No business sense? You mean they don't like to be cheated out of all their belongings and freedom.
Juhani: It is difficult indeed to deal with those you oppress and enslave.

Czerka Scientist: Welcome to Edean. I trust you will find our facilities pass inspection. Czerka Corporation is very efficient.
Zaalbar: You have nothing to be proud of, fool.
Czerka Scientist: I'm sorry, I don't understand Wookieespeak. Shyriiwook, I think it's called? What did the Wookiee say?
Revan: You work on Kashyyyk and don't understand the language?
Czerka Scientist: Czerka Corporation calls the planet Edean, and no, I don't understand the language. The local Wookiee leader has made it so we don't need to. Wookiees are unable to speak basic, but for the last decade the residents of all local villages have been trained to understand it.
Revan: What good would that do?
Czerka Scientist: It helps ease tensions. They are less hostile towards us if they understand what we say.
Zaalbar: And it makes my people more desirable as slaves.

Revan: Purchase local species? What do you mean?
Janos Wertka: Aren't you here to take delivery of a Wookiee thrall? There are few other reasons to visit this barbaric world.

Zaalbar: He means that they are slavers. They take my people from their homes and sell them to the highest bidder.
Janos Wertka: Your current Wookiee seems displeased with the situation, but I fail to see a concern. You seem to be a satisfied customer.
Revan: Zaalbar is no slave. He has pledged a life-debt to me.
Janos Wertka: Ah, a very difficult thing to stage. I commend you for it. So much easier than relying on restraining collars.
Zaalbar: Do not demean the life-debt! Do not!
Janos Wertka: I must warn you that you will be blamed for the actions of your Wookiee. Please… call him off.

Janos Wertka: We supply arms in exchange for a supply of healthy Wookiees. We are kept profitable and an agreeable leader is kept in power. It keeps the process from becoming a constant firefight.
Revan: What is this leader's name?
Janos Wertka: I believe his name is Chuundar. I don't deal directly with them, thank goodness. Far too brutish.

Revan: I'd like to talk to you about the slaving operations here on Edean.
Janos Wertka: I've a very limited number of things I can say. What do you wish to discuss?
Revan: I can't allow this to continue.
Janos Wertka: It's not up to you. This planet is not a member of the Republic, and its backward citizens hold no rights. I'm sorry you are offended, but this operation is very humane. Even the Wookiee leadership knows it is more beneficial to work with us.
Juhani: Slavery under any guise should not be tolerated!
Carth: Humane, you call it? Beneficial? Sounds like a bunch of excuses, if you ask me.

My source: https://strategywiki.org/wiki/Star_W...a_Landing_Port

[Bartmanhomer]

She is suggesting that if you were to do this sort of writing, make sure to utilize your LGBTA friends so that you don't write something offensive and bad.

I'm not going to write anything offensive and bad about the LGBT people. I'm an ally of the LGBT co and I do write adult stories featuring LGBT people for a living.

[Anonymouswizard]

I'm not going to write anything offensive and bad about the LGBT people. I'm an ally of the LGBT co and I do write adult stories featuring LGBT people for a living.

While I'm somewhat unsold on the former part, the second sounds interesting. I do like some adult LGBT stories, got a link to anything you've published? I could read them and see if you've made any mistakes before, although I presume they won't be at the 'teenage girl' level.

[Bartmanhomer]

While I'm somewhat unsold on the former part, the second sounds interesting. I do like some adult LGBT stories, got a link to anything you've published? I could read them and see if you've made any mistakes before, although I presume they won't be at the 'teenage girl' level.

I post my adult stories in an adult Facebook Group.

[Keltest]

ah, lets see the available dialogue in Kashyyyk's Czerka spaceport before you ever find these guys:

Spoiler: Czerka Landing Port Quotes

Show

My source: https://strategywiki.org/wiki/Star_W...a_Landing_Port

I dont think anybody is saying that the slavers arent awful and dont have it coming, just that brutally murdering people on a whim doesnt become suddenly better just because theyre awful people. Especially when it has the potential (even if its never realized) to have the fallout land on your mission or the heads of innocent wookiees.

[Mystic Muse]

I post my adult stories in an adult Facebook Group.

So, first of all, that's not writing for a living. Writing for a living means it's your day job.

I'm not going to write anything offensive and bad about the LGBT people. I'm an ally of the LGBT co and I do write adult stories featuring LGBT people for a living.

Second, you're already not off to a great start here. Saying "the LGBT people." Implies we're a monolith.

This is why several of us in this thread keep reiterating the need to ditch grammarly and get an English tutor or something. I fully believe you have nothing but good intentions. That's not enough. It might even make you more susceptible to writing things that are unintentionally offensive. It's happened to me before.

[Bartmanhomer]

So, first of all, that's not writing for a living. Writing for a living means it's your day job.



Second, you're already not off to a great start here. Saying "the LGBT people." Implies we're a monolith.

This is why several of us in this thread keep reiterating the need to ditch Grammarly and get an English tutor or something. I fully believe you have nothing but good intentions. That's not enough. It might even make you more susceptible to writing things that are unintentionally offensive. It's happened to me before.

Well, I'm sorry but my intention of writing LGBT people in a Pokemon story isn't bad.

[Anonymouswizard]

Heck, I've occasionally been offensive towards people who share conditions I have.

All those 'autistic people like detail and are good at maths' jokes I've made over the years, for instance, the vast majority of them outside this thread.

[Rater202]

All those 'autistic people like detail and are good at maths' jokes I've made over the years, for instance, the vast majority of them outside this thread.

*is suddenly feeling very sterotypical*

Don't judge me!

[Mystic Muse]

Well, I'm sorry but my intention of writing LGBT people in a Pokemon story isn't bad.

Okay, important question.

Why are you making these characters LGBT? How are you illustrating that they're LGBT?

Answer in as much detail as you can.

[Lord Raziere]

Heck, I've occasionally been offensive towards people who share conditions I have.

All those 'autistic people like detail and are good at maths' jokes I've made over the years, for instance, the vast majority of them outside this thread.

For your information sir, math wasn't one of my better subjects in school. my parapros kept having to explain concepts multiple times to me to get it, and even then I'm pretty sure I've forgotten most of it. any math I am good at is probably purely because I'm interested in finding the answer, am willing to use any device shortcuts to do so and I won't be able to show my work.

I will admit to liking detail though.