A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

[Cazero]

Huh. They went there. Huh. Not sure how I feel about that.

Neither do I. Especialy now that I also remember where they went with the sexuality part.

[Rater202]

I don't like it in games when certain powers are locked behind good/evil or otherwise tied to morality, or when use of such moves inherently earns points on the karma meter, when there's no adequate explanation.

Like, if you need to be evil to learn how to cat Hellfire spells or if the high-priest of Leafy, God of the orchard refuses to teach you how to speak with the trees if he smells innocent blood on your hands, that's one thing.

And things like... Force Lightning, make sense. You are literally channeling your anger and/or desire to hurt someone through your body where it erupts from your fingertips in the form of lightning. Something like that makes sense to be difficult to use with 'good guy' powers.

But if the gimmick of the game is that you're psychic or a mutant or something and every power you develop is something you've had the power to develop all along, it doesn't make sense that you can only learn how to create giant ice spikes to impale your enemies if you're a good guy and how to incinerate someone to death if you're a bad guy.

You're killing people either way. Attributing hard morality to different methods of killing but not to the act of killing your enemies at all, especially when the narrative/mechanics/what have you treat both methods as equally painful and both methods as leaving the person equally dead equally quick.

[Peelee]

And things like... Force Lightning, make sense. You are literally channeling your anger and/or desire to hurt someone through your body where it erupts from your fingertips in the form of lightning. Something like that makes sense to be difficult to use with 'good guy' powers.

There was a good-aligned version of Force Lightning in Legends (IIRC mostly used during the Dark Nest trilogy), and as far as I know hasn't had any current Canon update. But I always hated lightning being tied to the dark side for the exact reasons you later list. It doesn't seem to be any more a channeling of anger than any other Force power, like using telekinesis to crush a windpipe.

[Keltest]

There was a good-aligned version of Force Lightning in Legends (IIRC mostly used during the Dark Nest trilogy), and as far as I know hasn't had any current Canon update. But I always hated lightning being tied to the dark side for the exact reasons you later list. It doesn't seem to be any more a channeling of anger than any other Force power, like using telekinesis to crush a windpipe.

I mean, Force Choke is also a dark side power, so...

[Fyraltari]

There was a good-aligned version of Force Lightning in Legends (IIRC mostly used during the Dark Nest trilogy), and as far as I know hasn't had any current Canon update. But I always hated lightning being tied to the dark side for the exact reasons you later list. It doesn't seem to be any more a channeling of anger than any other Force power, like using telekinesis to crush a windpipe.

Jedi Knight Outcast and Academy allow you to use powers of any side without repercussions on your alignment. In fact Kyle's only lesson shown in-game is that no ability is inherently good or bad, the Dark and Light side are about what you do and why not how. Though, if you invest more in Dark Side powers than Light Side, Kyle and Luke will tell you to be careful.

Edit: wiping out an entire room full of stormtroopers with a single Force-Lightning 3 makes it so worth it, however.

[Peelee]

I mean, Force Choke is also a dark side power, so...

Force Choke is just telekinesis used In a very specific way.

Jedi Knight Outcast and Academy allow you to use powers of any side without repercussions on your alignment. In fact Kyle's only lesson shown in-game is that no ability is inherently good or bad, the Dark and Light side are about what you do and why not how. Though, if you invest more in Dark Side powers than Light Side, Kyle and Luke will tell you to be careful.

Edit: wiping out an entire room full of stormtroopers with a single Force-Lightning 3 makes it so worth it, however.

I should really play those games sometime.

[Rater202]

There was a good-aligned version of Force Lightning in Legends (IIRC mostly used during the Dark Nest trilogy), and as far as I know hasn't had any current Canon update. But I always hated lightning being tied to the dark side for the exact reasons you later list. It doesn't seem to be any more a channeling of anger than any other Force power, like using telekinesis to crush a windpipe.

If it was just generic generation or manipulation of electromagnetism, you'd have a point, but outside of very rare circumstances, force lightning exists for destructive purposes.

It exists to inflict pain, kill, and destroy and it's easier to use by channeling your anger or desire to harm.

In the original trilogy, Palpatine or doesn't use it as a weapon, he uses it as an instrument of torture.

And it's explained that, with the Force, intent and feelings are what matter.

From what I understand of Lightside Lightning is that it's a hell of a lot harder to use because it's hard to use purely destructive abilities while remaining in control of yourself and your emotions. Add on that it's not very practical for non-destructive purposes.

Like, even in the Old Republic my understanding is that a Lightside Sith Warrior or Inquisitor using their lightning isn't using Lightning via the Lightside so much that their intentions are and choices are good enough, and their minds and body strong enough, that they can use the Darkside with limited risk of being confused by it.

I mean, when you can shrug off the combined might of six ancient Sith Lords with power over fear laser focusing that power on you to cow you because you dared to point out that they totally can be captured and imprisoned when they claim otherwise because you literally just freed them from the same, resisting the urge to electrocute anyone who looks at you funny is small potatoes.

The Old Republic is another good example of that. Each faction has parallel class structures.

The Jedi Knight and the Sith Warrior are Counterparts to each other, and one of the specializations for the class has a power that, when activated, channel the Force into your Lightsaber(Or similar weapon) in order to augment its cutting power with elemental energy. With the Warrior, it's Force Lightning.

With the Knight, it's fire.

Channeling lightning into you're magic sci-fire plasma sword is coded evil, but doing it with fire isn't?

[Keltest]

Its entirely possible to play a light sided Sith Warrior in TOR, or a Dark Side jedi Knight. The Republic and Sith dont correspond to the two sides of the Force, at least not automatically.

[Peelee]

It exists to inflict pain, kill, and destroy

So are lightsabers, and yet.

and it's easier to use by channeling your anger or desire to harm.

So is the Force in general, and yet.

[Rater202]

Its entirely possible to play a light sided Sith Warrior in TOR, or a Dark Side jedi Knight. The Republic and Sith dont correspond to the two sides of the Force, at least not automatically.

I am more than aware of this.

In fact, it seems that the Sith Inquisitor is canonically a Lightsider: Roll an Inquisitor and proceed straight to the DLC and you get called Darth Imperius by default, the title you get if you're a Lightsider by the time you join the Dark Council.

My point, however, is that you are using the powers you were taught, which implies that the powers used by a Jedi Character are presumably Lightider powers by default much like the powers used by the Sith classes tend to be darkside by default.

I can buy all of the reasons for Lightning to be inherently tried to the Darkside...

But all of the reason why electrocuting someone would be an 'evil' power apply equally well to setting them on fire.

[Keltest]

I am more than aware of this.

In fact, it seems that the Sith Inquisitor is canonically a Lightsider: Roll an Inquisitor and proceed straight to the DLC and you get called Darth Imperius by default, the title you get if you're a Lightsider by the time you join the Dark Council.

My point, however, is that you are using the powers you were taught, which implies that the powers used by a Jedi Character are presumably Lightider powers by default much like the powers used by the Sith classes tend to be darkside by default.

I can buy all of the reasons for Lightning to be inherently tried to the Darkside...

But all of the reason why electrocuting someone would be an 'evil' power apply equally well to setting them on fire.

I mean, seems to me then that youre making an assumption here. IIRC, the Jedi Order in TOR is based in large part on the teachings of the Exile, who was theoretically a light sider who used dark side powers. And its not like the Sith wouldnt have practical uses for the light side powers either.

[Rater202]

So are lightsabers, and yet.

On the contrary, my dear dragon, a lightsaber can be used to inflict harm, but it is also used to block or parry attacks, such as lightning or blasterbolts, that otherwise require rare or expensive materials to protect against.

Furthermore, all formal lightsaber combat in the series is closer to fencing and kendo, even flynning, than to traditional swordplay. In a proper duel, you're striking at the target's sword while parrying their own strikes until they're tired enough to give you an opening, rather than going in for the kill right away.

So is the Force in general, and yet.

Only if you're using the Darkside.

[Peelee]

On the contrary, my dear dragon, a lightsaber can be used to inflict harm, but it is also used to block or parry attacks, such as lightning or blasterbolts, that otherwise require rare or expensive materials to protect against.

And lightning can also be used to power up engines or other technology, as in Force Unleashed. As for lightsabers combat, yes, the Jedi do train to use these dangerous weapons in less-than-lethal ways. Because that's how Jedi handle dangerous weapons. Similarly, Jedi could handle dangerous Force powers differently and train to use them differently.

Dragons tend to be very knowledgeable about Star Wars. Your original assertion of "powers shouldn't be constructed to morality, it's about how they're used" didn't really need exceptions. It was spot on for Star Wars.

[Rater202]

And lightning can also be used to power up engines or other technology, as in Force Unleashed.

Realistically, in most cases that's just going to fry whatever it is you're trying to power up.

A car battery that gets struck by lightning isn't going to get recharged. It's probably just gonna be badly damaged. Charge a cellphone with lightning and you need a new phone.

I don't know the context of Force Unleashed, but unless those specific devices are durable as crap or specially designed to charge that way, that was probably something cool that the player was permitted to do without actually thinking too hard about what the implications are or whether that would actually work in the context of the greater franchise

As for lightsabers combat, yes, the Jedi do train to use these dangerous weapons in less-than-lethal ways.

As do the Sith.

Any given lightsaber duel, as shown in the films, tends to be depicted as more sport than combat until the final blow is struck.

I understand why Lightning works as an exception, The way it's depicted it should be hard to use without drawing on The Darkside.

But most examples are just arbitrary.

[Peelee]

Realistically, in most cases that's just going to fry whatever it is you're trying to power up.

Do you want to talk about realism or Star Wars?

Also, the duels in the OT (the good duels) are not more sport. They are almost pure combat. And prequel/sequel-era "duels" were just bad choreography.

[Jasdoif]

Jedi Knight Outcast and Academy allow you to use powers of any side without repercussions on your alignment. In fact Kyle's only lesson shown in-game is that no ability is inherently good or bad, the Dark and Light side are about what you do and why not how. Though, if you invest more in Dark Side powers than Light Side, Kyle and Luke will tell you to be careful.

I would be remiss not to point out that this is not the case in Jedi Knight; you can choose freely between light-side and dark-side powers until the pivotal moment where your prior actions and choices determine which side you're dedicated to...at which point you get the really fancy power associated with that side of the Force and (IIRC) any points you've allocated to the opposite side are released for you to reallocate. There's also a comment in the game somewhere about how drawing on the both sides of the Force is a sign of youth or inexperience or something.

(Dark Forces doesn't involve itself with the Force at all, IIRC)

I should really play those games sometime.

Same; I need to come up with the time to dedicate to playing them, but they're pretty low on the long list of things I should come up with the time to dedicate to.

[Rater202]

They are almost pure combat.

Yes, they're presented as combat.

But look at the choreography: When Obi-Wan and Darth Vader have their final duel at the conclusion of the... Wanna say second act, of A New Hope, they're flynning.

Obi-Wan takes a moment to twirl around for some reason.

This is supposed to be a fight to the death but at no point does it look like they're doing anything but playing until Obi-Wan decides to let Vader kill him to buy time for Luke and Han to escape with the Princess. Only when Obi-Wan just stands there and takes it does Vader make an actual effect to harm his former master.

Vader had to completely rebuild his fighting style from the ground up due to his injuries and because his new arms and legs were too heavy for the kinds of movements his style as a Jedi, and he'd have spent the better part of two decades studying the ways of the Sith. There's no reason for him to be fighting so defensively unless the sith also practice defensive Lightsaber forms.

Lightsaber combat seems to e an inherently defensive discipline.

[Keltest]

Yes, they're presented as combat.

But look at the choreography: When Obi-Wan and Darth Vader have their final duel at the conclusion of the... Wanna say second act, of A New Hope, they're flynning.

Obi-Wan takes a moment to twirl around for some reason.

This is supposed to be a fight to the death but at no point does it look like they're doing anything but playing until Obi-Wan decides to let Vader kill him to buy time for Luke and Han to escape with the Princess. Only when Obi-Wan just stands there and takes it does Vader make an actual effect to harm his former master.

Vader had to completely rebuild his fighting style from the ground up due to his injuries and because his new arms and legs were too heavy for the kinds of movements his style as a Jedi, and he'd have spent the better part of two decades studying the ways of the Sith. There's no reason for him to be fighting so defensively unless the sith also practice defensive Lightsaber forms.

Lightsaber combat seems to e an inherently defensive discipline.

I think you are maybe misjudging based on movie swordsmanship instead of actual swordsmanship. The duel in ANH is easily the most realistic in any Star Wars movie. Theyre actually watching their opponent and acting based on that instead of just swinging wildly to hit the blade like they do in the prequels.

[Anonymouswizard]

Jedi learn restraint, so it's likely that a Jedi who tried could develop a version of Force Lightning that delivered less energy and thus was more practical for charging. eBay confuses me is why messing with people's minds to make them think that these aren't the droids you're looking for isn't a Dark Side power. I think it's because originally there was no such thing as Light Side/Dark Side powers, as it's only at the end of the OT that anybody displays a unique ability so it's not hard to assume that you just have to be really skilled to use lightning, not necessarily Dark Side. If course then the EU came along and agreed the Light Side into a perfectly functional Normal/Corrupted dynamic.

My main issue with the ANH duel us that there's a few points where they're clearly not standing close enough together to hit each other, but I'll admit that in at least one instance Obi-Wan is clearly staying out of Vader's reach. I'm not sure Obi-Wan even intends to kill Vader, even if we go with the original interpretation and not what later plot developments added. He knows he's out of practice, and he knows that Vader has had combat experience recently even if he didn't have to draw his lightsider, I'd say that the entire duel is affected by Obi-Wan just trying to delay Vader until the others can escape.

Plus, well, they're two old men, and are noticeably past their prime. Even if they're only in their late forties or early fifties have either actually been able to have a proper duel in a decade?

[Peelee]

Yes, they're presented as combat.

But look at the choreography: When Obi-Wan and Darth Vader have their final duel at the conclusion of the... Wanna say second act, of A New Hope, they're flynning.

Obi-Wan takes a moment to twirl around for some reason.

This is supposed to be a fight to the death but at no point does it look like they're doing anything but playing until Obi-Wan decides to let Vader kill him to buy time for Luke and Han to escape with the Princess. Only when Obi-Wan just stands there and takes it does Vader make an actual effect to harm his former master.

Vader had to completely rebuild his fighting style from the ground up due to his injuries and because his new arms and legs were too heavy for the kinds of movements his style as a Jedi, and he'd have spent the better part of two decades studying the ways of the Sith. There's no reason for him to be fighting so defensively unless the sith also practice defensive Lightsaber forms.

Lightsaber combat seems to e an inherently defensive discipline.

In the original Star Wars, they were both old men (albeit one more machine than man) fighting as old men. In ESB, Vader was toying with Luke, deliberately trying to not kill or hurt Luke too much. In ROTJ, Luke ends up wielding the lightsabers as a cudgel, eventually just hammering and hammering at Vader.

Thebare not "lightsabers forms". These are not examples of fluff that Lucas didn't create until decades later. These are choreography by a swordmaster designed to be combative. This is very unlike TPM, where it is effectively a dance and the sabers hardly ever swing towards a body but rather towards where the enemy saber.

All of which is largely immaterial to "force powers don't really discriminate between light side and dark side; the intent of use has morality, not the power itself", which is similar to the lightsaber in general, and which was mostly your original point (though youh left Star Wars an an exception when I think it should have not been).

[asda fasda]

As for lightseber, Ben comment "weapon for more civilized Times" was aimed to show that sword altugh a weapon is not for kiling, if you want to kill your opponent blaster is better, sword is good for intimidation and subdueing your opponent.

Edit: ohh and i would not read to much into cjhoreography of original trilogy, Ive watch An interview of Mark Hamil, when he spółkę about how he was amezed by fighter scenes in phanom menace, as in His time the lighsabres waere so heave that there was no Way they could do any of that (due to limitations od motion capture at that time)

[Rater202]

All of which is largely immaterial to "force powers don't really discriminate between light side and dark side; the intent of use has morality, not the power itself",.

You're the one that brought up lightsabers.

Specifically to counter my point as to why Star Wars is an exception: They explain exactly why force Lightning is almost exclusively a darkside power: Becuase under normal circumstances it has purely destructive applications and because it is generated by using the force to turn your will to harm someone into electricity.

With the way the Lighrsider/Darkside distinction is made(The Lightside is about controlling your feelings and feeling a peaceful oneness with the Force while the Darkside is about riding your passions and letting your emotions run wile in order to use them to acquire raw power at the risk of damage to your mind and body) it makes sense that it would be difficult, even impossible, for a Lightsider to generate lightning unless they were dabbling in the Darkside.

You then argued that Lightsabers have purely destructive applications, to which I replied that the lightsaber has innately defensive applications as well, and started the point about Lightsaber duels, whether the combatants are Jedi or Sith, seem to be done defensively.

And citing Luke, at most,adds a 'properly taught' Rider. Luke was thaught how to block blaster bolts and he was tight how to use the Force, but as far as we know he had to figure out actually fighting with a Lightsaber on his own.

[Peelee]

You're the one that brought up lightsabers.

All of which is largely immaterial to "force powers don't really discriminate between light side and dark side; the intent of use has morality, not the power itself", which is similar to the lightsaber in general

Bolding mine*. I brought up lightsabers, which is relevant. You brought up fight choreography minutae, which I vew as irrelevant (not to mention wildly inconsistent).

As for the "explanation" of why it's a dark side power, let me just say that I do not give it anywhere near the weight that you seem to.


ETA: Also, I did not argue at all for "purely destructive applications" of lightsabers. I did argue for non-purely-destructive-applications of Force Lightning, with a source to back up my claim. You seem to have dismissed it out of hand as not being realistic, in which case we could dismiss all Force powers out of hand.


*well, technically, the whole thing mine, but you know what I mean.

[Fyraltari]

I should really play those games sometime.

Yeah you should.

I would be remiss not to point out that this is not the case in Jedi Knight; you can choose freely between light-side and dark-side powers until the pivotal moment where your prior actions and choices determine which side you're dedicated to...at which point you get the really fancy power associated with that side of the Force and (IIRC) any points you've allocated to the opposite side are released for you to reallocate. There's also a comment in the game somewhere about how drawing on the both sides of the Force is a sign of youth or inexperience or something.

(Dark Forces doesn't involve itself with the Force at all, IIRC)

Well, I haven't played those games, so I can't say.

Same; I need to come up with the time to dedicate to playing them, but they're pretty low on the long list of things I should come up with the time to dedicate to.

I'd recommend watching the end of Soviet's Womble Jedi Outcast video if you need further convincing. I'd link it here, but it has profanities.

eBay confuses me

You and me, my friend.

Also, arguing about Star Wars with Peelee be like. Yes, I am talking from experience.

[Lacco]

Furthermore, all formal lightsaber combat in the series is closer to fencing and kendo, even flynning, than to traditional swordplay. In a proper duel, you're striking at the target's sword while parrying their own strikes until they're tired enough to give you an opening, rather than going in for the kill right away.

...what is your source? Especially regarding "a proper duel".

Because the advice you presented is exactly something for the fencing salle, but I would apply it very carefully in a duel.

In a proper duel, you are essentially fighting for your life - and if you know your enemy well, and you know their technique is worse than yours, you can afford things like this, but they may impale you by essentially throwing themselves at you (risking a wound for wound), sword first (there are some accounts of skilled swordsmen being wounded by amateurs - after all, there is the famous saying). And if you do not know their level of skill - do you want to give them the advantage of getting to know your style?

So yes, when you have a polite sparring, you can afford to do so - and if you know your opponent. For example, German schools usually advised attack as a form of defense - and from my limited knowledge, they were not alone.

And on personal note, as someone who participated in light sparring with baroque sidesword vs. rapier that had a sharp tip (we did not know how sharp at that point), once you get the first scratch across ribs, pleasantries go aside.

[Rater202]

Because the advice you presented is exactly something for the fencing salle, but I would apply it very carefully in a duel.

That wasn't advice.

That was a description of a lightsaber duel.

Pay attention. When they're not flailing randomly, they're aiming at each other's blades instead of the other combatant and/or fighting very defensively.

[Lacco]

That wasn't advice.

That was a description of a lightsaber duel.

Pay attention. When they're not flailing randomly, they're aiming at each other's blades instead of the other combatant and/or fighting very defensively.

Well, then ignore my previous statement.

Lightsaber duels are lightsaber duels. Not to be confused with combat

[Fyraltari]

Well, then ignore my previous statement.

Lightsaber duels are lightsaber duels. Not to be confused with combat

They are actually mating dances.

[Lord Raziere]

That wasn't advice.

That was a description of a lightsaber duel.

Pay attention. When they're not flailing randomly, they're aiming at each other's blades instead of the other combatant and/or fighting very defensively.

Yeah but the Sith are doing that to.

Whose philosophy are directly opposite of the Jedi and have been around long enough to come up with their own tradition and methods to counteract how Jedi do it. Those movements are not actual good combat, they're just for show for an audience that doesn't know how swordfighting works.

like, a lightsaber by rights, shouldn't even be held in two hands, thats just a katana holdover. the entire weapon, weight-wise is nothing but a handle, meaning its incredibly light for something so destructive. the reason you hold swords in two hands is because they weigh enough that you need both of them to direct the a blade that would otherwise be unwieldy and has the length to make up for it in reach, with lightsabers thats so unneeded as to be detrimental to fighting effectively with such a weapon, because really lightsabers by rights should just be Rapier/Actual Saber Combat For Keeps: all the fun of quickly keeping your foe at arms length and getting stabbed, but with added painful heat. you could make the Jedi move like swashbucklers and it'd both be more accurate and still cinematic and cool to see as things like Zorro or Pirates of the Caribbean demonstrate. and if you want to keep the Jedi defensive, show them trying to do disarming tactics and whatnot.

Though one can question why a sect of monks even has a weapon that can so easily violate their own principles, given a lightsabers potential destructive capabilities like setting things on fire, seems contrary to their whole "harmony with the universe" thing and they'd be better served just using a weapon thats basically a staff but can somehow withstand lightsabers so that they can use any part of it to defend against one, but lets remember that Star Wars is all an elaborate excuse to have cool space dogfights and lightsaber duels on a big screen. the morality stuff is just there to make you root for blue, nothing deeper.

[Lacco]

They are actually mating dances.

I always wondered how Jedi raves looked like.

Though one can question why a sect of monks even has a weapon that can so easily violate their own principles, given a lightsabers potential destructive capabilities like setting things on fire, seems contrary to their whole "harmony with the universe" thing and they'd be better served just using a weapon thats basically a staff but can somehow withstand lightsabers so that they can use any part of it to defend against one, but lets remember that Star Wars is all an elaborate excuse to have cool space dogfights and lightsaber duels on a big screen. the morality stuff is just there to make you root for blue, nothing deeper.

Because nothing says "harmony with the universe" as a weapon that cuts through meat.