A Wild Lurker Appears! Hyoi's Random Banter #232

[Rater202]

The thing is, we're explicitly informed that they're not behaving rationaly when some snotty brat abducting a king's wife/fiancee results in a war instead of a formal apology accompanied with the brat's head.

Kids were fongible back then, right?

"Yes, I'm totally going to execute my long-lost son because he obeyed when the Goddess of Love told him to seduce your wife."

Helen wasn't kidnapped, Paris seduced her and she decided to run off with him and rob her husband blind on the way out. Paris seduced her because he was following instructions given to him by Aphrodite after he judged her the one most worthy of the Golden Apple, promising that by doing so he would earn the love of the most beautiful woman in the world.

Also, at least some translations indicate that nobody wants to go to war over this but they're bound by oaths to do so and if they back out they won't get help from the other Greek King if they need it.

[Tvtyrant]

I know, we found Troy.


Right but the story was written down by the descendants of the Acheans, they were glorifying their cultural heroes rather than making excuses for not beating them (that would be more likely if the descendants of the Trojans were telling the stories, which they are not, no matter what Virgile says).

Also, I doubt that anybody ever felt it impossible to process "some people are bigger or faster than others" without going "this guy must be the son of a god!"
It's just that when a story gets passed down from one person to the next for a few centuries before being written down like this one was, everything gers blown out of proportions: thirty ships become a thousand, a ten-month long siege becomes ten years long, all those tribe leaders become kings with divine parents, the better-than average warrior who died of a badly infected heel-wound? Was dipped into the river of the Underworld as an infant making him invulnerable to all wounds except this one, that random archer was a companion of Herakles, the whole thing happened for the most beautiful woman in the world and Menelaus once caught a fish that big!

Edit:


But he doesn't fall in the Illiad. The Illiad doesn't need Achilles to be defeated to be a good story.

I think I am going to duck out or we need to move off board to continue this conversation. Mea Culpa.

[Peelee]

But he doesn't fall in the Illiad. The Illiad doesn't need Achilles to be defeated to be a good story.

It's been decades since I read it (and it didn't interest me terribly much when I did), so I'll take the rap for not remember it that well.

Yes, but we are expected to believe that the characters in a story are acting towards their own interest and that they are behaving rationally unless otherwise shown that they are not of their right mind.

Yes, but acting rationally does not mean "makes the objectively optimal decision at every possible chance". People are not robots. People make mistakes, choose suboptimal options, and do things that other people would not do. That does not make a plot hole.

[Rater202]

Yes, but acting rationally does not mean "makes the objectively optimal decision at every possible chance". People are not robots. People make mistakes, choose suboptimal options, and do things that other people would not do. That does not make a plot hole.

There's "failing to take the objectively optimal choice" and there's "I didn't make my son immortal despite having the ability to do so and there not being any reason why I can't try again."

You telling me that Achilles never once strapped on a sharp rock and his mom was like "oh, I should take care of that?" And in the case of versions of the story that involve trying to back the mortality out of him, there's literally no reason why she couldn't put him right back in the fireplace after explaining what she was trying to do to Pelus.

[Peelee]

There's "failing to take the objectively optimal choice" and there's "I didn't make my son immortal despite having the ability to do so and there not being any reason why I can't try again."

Invulnerable. Not immortal. And she clearly thought she did and didn't consider the heel. Again, people, not robots.

[Rater202]

Invulnerable. Not immortal. And she clearly thought she did and didn't consider the heel. Again, people, not robots.

So I edited that, but for the sake of convincing.

It is my experience that injuries to the feet, say, the heel, are the most likely childhood injuries. "One of Achilles' feet is vulnerable to harm" is something that honestly should have come up a long time before the Trojan War even started.

Furthermore, as noted, at least one translation has Thetis go beyond making him invulnerable and flat out try to make him Immortal by coating him in ambrosia and placing him in a Hearth to burn away his mortality and make him unable to die. In this version of the story, Pelus sees this and snatches newborn Achilles from the fire before it can have any meaningful effect... But Thetis explains herself to him and there's no reason given for why they don't just put him back in the fire once everything is cleared up.

[Peelee]

Also, I'm now amused at the idea of a side story where his mother held into his ankle and dunked him to the heel was still out of the liquid, and now she has an invulnerable hand. And the significantly lackluster things that she can do with this power.

[Fyraltari]

Also, I'm now amused at the idea of a side story where his mother held into his ankle and dunked him to the heel was still out of the liquid, and now she has an invulnerable hand. And the significantly lackluster things that she can do with this power.

Wouldn't that result in him having a vulnerable ankle instead of heel?

[Peelee]

Wouldn't that result in him having a vulnerable ankle instead of heel?

You'd think, but there are no stories about his mother's invulnerable hand, so obviously That's not how it works and something was lost in translation. That is the only scenario I am willing to accept.

[DavidSh]

You'd think, but there are no stories about his mother's invulnerable hand, so obviously That's not how it works and something was lost in translation. That is the only scenario I am willing to accept.

Other scenarios would involve discussing real-world, albeit ancient, religion, so I guess we have to stop here.

And the other day I saw daffodils for the first time, so spring is truly here, on into the yellow-flower stage (daffodils, forsythia, dandelions).

[Anonymouswizard]

I find it annoying when science fiction settings thriw around accelerations of hundreds of gs as a standard thing. Like, I get that space is big, but that's a lot of ebergy there and you should probably run the numbers on that. My favourite setting does have 1g acceleration as standard on starships, which is a lot of energy as well considering that they run continuously for years, but that's a mixture of wanting human-scale star travel without FTL and the writer has run the numbers.

And yet again I find myself wanting to run a Revelation Space-inspired game with GURPS or Fate. Have the PCs as the crew of a Lighthugger and treat travel between systems as a setting instead of an activity. (Or just use the idea in the Fate Space Toolkit and have the PCs be intelligent relativistic ships.)

[Rater202]

Does anyone else ever wonder what it would be like to have extra eyes or a tail or tentacles?

[factotum]

I find it annoying when science fiction settings thriw around accelerations of hundreds of gs as a standard thing. Like, I get that space is big, but that's a lot of ebergy there and you should probably run the numbers on that.

I consider it a win when SF (particularly on TV, but books do it as well) actually acknowledges distances in space and that it takes a long time to get anywhere at reasonable speeds, TBH! It also depends what sort of SF we're talking about. If we're talking the sort of super-powered tech we see in Iain M. Banks' Culture books (where, just to give a simple example, a ship hides from its enemies by staying in the outer layers of the system's star) then I'm happy to let that ride, because the entire setting has that sort of ridiculous stuff happening. Conversely, something like the Expanse works best when it's at its most realistic (albeit the Epstein drive is still pretty much magic).

[Cazero]

I find it annoying when science fiction settings thriw around accelerations of hundreds of gs as a standard thing. Like, I get that space is big, but that's a lot of ebergy there and you should probably run the numbers on that.

Ho, please. Energy is a non-issue when compared to the fact that this would kill all of your human crew almost instantly.

[Anonymouswizard]

I consider it a win when SF (particularly on TV, but books do it as well) actually acknowledges distances in space and that it takes a long time to get anywhere at reasonable speeds, TBH! It also depends what sort of SF we're talking about. If we're talking the sort of super-powered tech we see in Iain M. Banks' Culture books (where, just to give a simple example, a ship hides from its enemies by staying in the outer layers of the system's star) then I'm happy to let that ride, because the entire setting has that sort of ridiculous stuff happening. Conversely, something like the Expanse works best when it's at its most realistic (albeit the Epstein drive is still pretty much magic).

While it's been a while since I've read a Culture book, I do remember hat their sublight engines weren't quite so insane, I'd have pegged them at mu;tiplr gs but probaby not undreds. Also I believe the hiding inside the star was a 'wth moment' in-universe as well, and that most civilisations that have reached that level die before putting it into practice.

But like, you can acknowledge distance without being quite so insane.

Ho, please. Energy is a non-issue when compared to the fact that this would kill all of your human crew almost instantly.

Space magic, Or 'inertial damping'.

Which Revelation Space actually has, but it also points out that unless you absolutely perfect it it'll probably be very uncomfortable and you might just want to deal with the higher acceleration you've snagged out of affecting part of your ship. instead of messing with your own inertia.

[Peelee]

Space magic, Or 'inertial damping'.

Aye. One of my favorite lines in a movie already stuffed to the brim with wit:
"wouldn't that be explosive in an all-oxygen environment?"
"Probably. But that's an easy fix, one line of dialogue. 'Thank god we invented the, ya know, whatever device'."

[enderlord99]

Aye. One of my favorite lines in a movie already stuffed to the brim with wit:
"wouldn't that be explosive in an all-oxygen environment?"
"Probably. But that's an easy fix, one line of dialogue. 'Thank god we invented the, ya know, whatever device'."

This sounds like it comes from a Mel Brooks movie, but I don't know which.

I don't remember it in Galaxy Quest, but I might have just forgotten. It could, however, have almost as likely come from Spaceballs.

[Form]

Space magic, Or 'inertial damping'.

Aye. One of my favorite lines in a movie already stuffed to the brim with wit:
"wouldn't that be explosive in an all-oxygen environment?"
"Probably. But that's an easy fix, one line of dialogue. 'Thank god we invented the, ya know, whatever device'."

A wizard scientist did it.

[halfeye]

Does anyone else ever wonder what it would be like to have extra eyes or a tail or tentacles?

I don't usually, when you ask that sort of tends to trigger it, but even so, not that much.

Have you been reading https://katalepsis.net/?

[Peelee]

This sounds like it comes from a Mel Brooks movie, but I don't know which.

I don't remember it in Galaxy Quest, but I might have just forgotten. It could, however, have almost as likely come from Spaceballs.

Swing and a miss on both, but to be fair there's only like two minutes talk of space in the whole movie. But that line apparently still made it in the trailer.

Also, it's a super good movie and I wholly recommend it.

[factotum]

While it's been a while since I've read a Culture book, I do remember hat their sublight engines weren't quite so insane, I'd have pegged them at mu;tiplr gs but probaby not undreds.

I don't think it's ever really mentioned because ships hardly ever use their sublight engines--the Clear Air Turbulence does so when escaping the Ends of Invention in Consider Phlebas, but I can't remember another instance.

[Rater202]

While we're talking about how fiction messes up space travel.

I did the math a couple hours ago on the current Marvel Comics Timeline. Currently, it was only a few weeks between the Absolute Carnage Event, which ended with Knull, God of the Symbiotes, being from his prison at the core of planet Klyntar and King in Black, which begins with Knull and his armies arriving at on Earth.

Klyntar was located in the Andromeda galaxy, which is over 2,500,000 lightyears away from Earth. Not even counting the distance from Klyntar to the edge of Andromeda and giving a very generous four-week time span, this means that Knull and his forces would have to be able to fly through the vacuum of space at 32,589,285.725 times the speed of light.

This is, of course, the bare minimum. It was probably less time, and we know he took at least one detour.

This honestly wouldn't be so bad by comic book standards... Except they don't use ships. They flap their wings, becuase they're dragons.

[Anonymouswizard]

Aye. One of my favorite lines in a movie already stuffed to the brim with wit:
"wouldn't that be explosive in an all-oxygen environment?"
"Probably. But that's an easy fix, one line of dialogue. 'Thank god we invented the, ya know, whatever device'."

Heh. To be fair to inertial damping, while it is space magic and has a good chance of being impossible, the coreidea is generally sound in how it's applied. Unless you're using it for FTL travel, but that's besides the point.

But honestly, a handwave that shows you've thought about it is better than no handwave, especially if it's relatively minor. Although sometimes the handwave can be completely the wrong thing (I remember watching Another Life, hearing 'the crew is young because you want people who'll act instead of thinking about it in space' or something like that and immediately thinking 'no, you want the opposite').


EDIT:

I don't think it's ever really mentioned because ships hardly ever use their sublight engines--the Clear Air Turbulence does so when escaping the Ends of Invention in Consider Phlebas, but I can't remember another instance.

A culture ship uses sublight engines at the end of Matter, but it's also noted that because of the location stopping culture-level technology from working it's rearranged itself to use primitive rocket technology instead of the normal drives.

[Fyraltari]

While we're talking about how fiction messes up space travel.

I did the math a couple hours ago on the current Marvel Comics Timeline. Currently, it was only a few weeks between the Absolute Carnage Event, which ended with Knull, God of the Symbiotes, being from his prison at the core of planet Klyntar and King in Black, which begins with Knull and his armies arriving at on Earth.

Klyntar was located in the Andromeda galaxy, which is over 2,500,000 lightyears away from Earth. Not even counting the distance from Klyntar to the edge of Andromeda and giving a very generous four-week time span, this means that Knull and his forces would have to be able to fly through the vacuum of space at 32,589,285.725 times the speed of light.

This is, of course, the bare minimum. It was probably less time, and we know he took at least one detour.

This honestly wouldn't be so bad by comic book standards... Except they don't use ships. They flap their wings, becuase they're dragons.

So you're telling me that the dragons that are impossibly flying through space are doing it too fast?

I am shocked and apalled.

[Peelee]

This honestly wouldn't be so bad by comic book standards... Except they don't use ships. They flap their wings, becuase they're dragons.

I kind of love that idea. But then I'm on record as being a fan of when comics lean into the whole "look, we're just going to be unapologetically silly" bit, so I'm probably in the minority there.

[Rawhide]

I kind of love that idea. But then I'm on record as being a fan of when comics lean into the whole "look, we're just going to be unapologetically silly" bit, so I'm probably in the minority there.

Spoiler: Every time you bring real world physics into a comic...

Show

[Fyraltari]

I kind of love that idea. But then I'm on record as being a fan of when comics lean into the whole "look, we're just going to be unapologetically silly" bit, so I'm probably in the minority there.

*Distant whisper*
Lovecraft did it first...

[Peelee]

*Distant whisper*
Lovecraft did it first...

That reminds me, I need to check out that new show.

[Rater202]

*Distant whisper*
Lovecraft did it first...

Ths is very appropriate, as Knull has a very strong influence from the Cthulhu Mythos and since he was revealed the cosmic horror references among Symbiotes have been played full tilt.

Admittedly, Knull himself draws more from The King in Yellow than any of Lovecraft's own works, but still.

[LaZodiac]

I don't usually, when you ask that sort of tends to trigger it, but even so, not that much.

Have you been reading https://katalepsis.net/?

Oh hey, I've been reading that. If you're part of the fan discord... well, I'm not part of that, but you've probably seen my responses. Small world!