Did Tsukiko worship any god(s)?

[Shadowknight12]

The Creed of Stone don't actually get their spells from "the earth", they actually get them from some incredibly old and powerful elementals who play the role a god would.

How do you know that's how it works in OOTS?

EDIT: We are specifically told that the Creed is non-theistic and has no deity.

[Fyraltari]

How do you know that's how it works in OOTS?

EDIT: We are specifically told that the Creed is non-theistic and has no deity.

Probably from there:

This is how I have always understood it (and keep in mind this is a basic D&D answer, and not a statement about OOTS per se):

On the most basic level, the substance of D&D multiverse is able to be shaped by personal belief. This is one of the main tenets of the Planescape setting, where planar locations shift around based on the moral leanings of the population. Most mortals don't have enough belief to really accomplish anything on their own, though, but the gods do. So mortals become clerics of a god, and their devotion to the god allows the god to funnel that belief-power back to them in the form of concrete magical effects. The gods aren't really the source of the power as much as they are the catalyst to convert it into something useful. They can tinker with the power in the process, by dictating spells or withholding power or what have you.

Non-theistic clerics get their spells from a wide distributed network of beings with similar philosophies who can act as catalysts for the cleric—but because these are not centralized, none of them can exercise "veto power" over the cleric, nor is the cleric required to acknowledge their dominance (or even their existence). In Gontor's case, it may be that a powerful Earth Elemental is granting him his spells, but it could be a different one each day, or even some spells from one and some from another. If any of those elementals decide they don't like what he's doing with his magic, he just gets his spells from someone else that day. He may even be entirely oblivious to which elemental provides his spells at any point, and therefore is under no obligation to any of them. Unfortunately, that also means that no single elemental is going to be invested enough in Gontor to care what happens to him.

Analogy time! Regular clerics have an employer-employee relationship, where the employer (god) consumes the work (prayer) that the employee (cleric) generates and in return provides them with compensation (spells), where that compensation is actually generated by the work being done by the entire company (church). A non-theistic cleric is more like a freelance writer; they perform the work (believe in a philosophy) that they feel is right for them, and then sell that work to whatever client (quasi-deific elemental beings) is willing to pay (provide spells) for it. The freelancer has more flexibility than the employee to do as they wish, but they also do not have many benefits of steady employment.

The same could work for Tsukiko just replace every mention of Earth with the appropriate element (Negative Energy?).

[Shadowknight12]

Probably from there:

The same could work for Tsukiko just replace every mention of Earth with the appropriate element (Negative Energy?).

Yeah that tracks, but the Giant does say that "this isn't a statement about OOTS per se" which leaves room for things to not be exactly the way he's describing here.

[Metastachydium]

Word of the Giant makes it abundantly clear that Tsukiko worshipped the Twelve (rather than some abstract concept or quintessential negative energy), though.

[Lacuna Caster]

I know this is pure headcanon, but I always suspected the Southern Pantheon has a Lawful slant to it, but that's mostly because we have seen more Azurite paladins than non-paladins and that colours my impression of them a bit.

In addition to Azurite society being loosely implied to be relatively conservative by OotSverse standards, I see major problems with a society of paladins knowingly worshipping one or more outright-evil deities. That's gonna trigger the 'no association' clause pretty bad.

[hamishspence]

One can offer prayers to an evil god without associating with that god - prayers of the 'please don't send any storms today' kind, for evil storm gods, for example.

That's how it works in the Forgotten Realms, for example - nearly everybody offers prayers to nearly every deity, and only a tiny proportion of the population never prays to any deity other than their "patron".

[Lacuna Caster]

One can offer prayers to an evil god without associating with that god - prayers of the 'please don't send any storms today' kind, for evil storm gods, for example.

"Habitually grovelling to evil" is even worse than "associating with evil" if you ask me, and I suspect a paladin would agree. Particularly the kind of a paladins who would broadly agree with this sentiment.

{scrubbed}

[hamishspence]

Not grovelling - simply showing respect, when the deity happens to govern something that the character is involved with.

In the Realms, even paladins will offer some small show of respect to the CE deity of the sea, Umberlee, when they're going to sea. A paladin who hunts pirates, for example.



And I'd speculate that in the OOTS-verse, even Azurite paladins offer some small show of respect to evil deities within their own pantheon, like Rat, when dealing with an issue that Rat has sovereignty over.

Also, this. The Twelve Gods are worshipped as a pantheon, by everyone, including evil characters like Kubota and Tsukiko.

Just as an Evil person can worship the whole pantheon including the good deities, so a Good person can worship the whole pantheon including the evil deities.

[Lacuna Caster]

Not grovelling - simply showing respect, when the deity happens to govern something that the character is involved with.

If you're begging the entity in question not to send storm and flood your way, you're grovelling. Doesn't matter how you dress it up. I really don't see how it would be much different from a paladin serving a council of nobles that were, say, 1/4 lawful evil, except it's worse, because you're actually getting spells from the pantheon. It doesn't square with no-association rules.

Just as an Evil person can worship the whole pantheon including the good deities...

I would question the logic of this as well.

[hamishspence]

It doesn't square with no-association rules.

No-association rules exist primarily to prevent paladins and evil-aligned characters from adventuring together.



They don't prevent paladins from "being in the same organisation as Evil-aligned characters" - plenty of LN churches have both paladins and Evil clerics. So, just "being in the same organization" does not count as associating. "Associating" in D&D, is extremely narrow, not wide.



"Paladins can't worship a pantheon that happens to include an evil deity" goes way beyond what's actually shown in-universe.

I would question the logic of this as well.

The Giant has stated that Tsukiko does worship the whole Azurite pantheon.

[Lacuna Caster]

No-association rules exist primarily to prevent paladins and evil-aligned characters from adventuring together.

Okay, hamish. Do you think Miko counts as "associating" with Lord Shojo? I can imagine paladins and LE clerics both working for the same non-evil deity (though I really question whether a lot of Undetectable Alignment spells aren't being employed there, given that paladins have a sacred duty to seek and smite the wicked.) It seems like the employee/employer relationship is closer than that.

The Giant has stated that Tsukiko does worship the whole Azurite pantheon.

Yes, which I would say creates distinct problems. Starting with why no-one, including folks like Thanh or Redcloak, ever asks "why are the Twelve letting her do this?"

[hamishspence]

The difference is that Shojo is regularly issuing Miko orders to follow.

By contrast, we're never shown that Rat is regularly issuing specific orders to individual members of the Sapphire Guard. He's just in the pantheon as a whole.

I really question whether a lot of Undetectable Alignment spells aren't being employed there, given that paladins have a sacred duty to seek and smite the wicked.)

To punish those who harm or threaten the innocent, specifically. But a paladin with a LN patron also has a "sacred duty to further the patron's agenda" - and killing the patron's LE clerics may end up interfering with the patron's agenda - so, such a paladin will be extremely cautious about how they handle LE clerics of the same deity.

[Lacuna Caster]

The difference is that Shojo is regularly issuing Miko orders to follow.

By contrast, we're never shown that Rat is regularly issuing specific orders to individual members of the Sapphire Guard. He's just in the pantheon as a whole.

If the author is going to make the analogy that the Twelve came down in person to fire Miko because of her screwups, I think he pretty much is implying a boss/employee relationship (although I think comparing Miko to a random cubicle-dweller is selling her pretty short.)

To punish those who harm or threaten the innocent, specifically. But a paladin with a LN patron also has a "sacred duty to further the patron's agenda" - and killing the patron's LE clerics may end up interfering with the patron's agenda - so, such a paladin will be extremely cautious about how they handle LE clerics of the same deity.

Yes, there are certainly no examples of religious organisations going to war over differing interpretations of the same holy text.

[woweedd]

I mean, remember: Most people worship the pantheon of Gods, not one specific God, even Clerics. You may have a specific patron deity you worship above the others (as Clerics usually do), but it's still a good idea to have a good word for all the Gods, lest you offend one of them. Think the old Greco-Roman pantheon: You worship the whole group, even if you have a specific patron. Of course, this varies: Some Gods, like St. Cuthbert and Heironius, are absolutely gonna get on your case for paying tribute to evil gods, some gods, like Lolth, are jealous gods who would get on you for so much as thinking of another deity, and Clerics and Paladins will definitely **** up the shrines of other gods to prove their patron's supremacy because being really super-into their specific god is kinda their thing, but, on the day-to-day, lots of people will pay tribute to Evil Gods just for the sake of ensuring those Evil Gods don't get pissy and send a plague of frogs to them. You may not like Hades, but, well, you're gonna have to face him one day, pay him proper respect. It seems like Tsukiko is functioning under a weird house rule where she worships the entire Pantheon, as a whole, rather then one specific member, which appears to be standard practice among Azure citizens. THere are rules for that, by the way: Short version, you get a lot more freedom. So long as your alignment is within worship range of ANY of the Pantheon's gods, you're in the clear.

If the author is going to make the analogy that the Twelve came down in person to fire Miko because of her screwups, I think he pretty much is implying a boss/employee relationship (although I think comparing Miko to a random cubicle-dweller is selling her pretty short.)


Yes, there are certainly no examples of religious organisations going to war over differing interpretations of the same holy text.

The analogy was the CEO of the multinational corporation. They're not HER boss, they're her boss's boss. She's aware of them, but they don't give the orders, and she'll only interact with them if she screws up in massive fashion. I would bet they don't even give Shojo direct orders, it's more like...If Shojo is the CEO of the Sapphire Guard, the Twelve Gods are the board of directors: They're the guys HE has to report back to.

[hamishspence]

Some Gods, like St. Cuthbert and Heironius, are absolutely gonna get on your case for paying tribute to evil gods, some gods, like Lolth, are jealous gods who would get on you for so much as thinking of another deity, and Clerics and Paladins will definitely **** up the shrines of other gods to prove their patron's supremacy because being really super-into their specific god is kinda their thing, but, on the day-to-day, lots of people will pay tribute to Evil Gods just for the sake of ensuring those Evil Gods don't get pissy and send a plague of frogs to them. You may not like Hades, but, well, you're gonna have to face him one day, pay him proper respect.

Or, as Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms puts it:

Spoiler

Show

Folk in the Realms also pray and make offerings to deities other than their primary one. They often make these offers in the hope of appeasement, such as “We’ve got to cross the Neck in a boat, so Umberlee, please don’t sink us, and Talos, send no storms . .

It is not acceptable to treat any gods disrespectfully. Their worshippers and clergy can be resisted, yes, and sometimes, for followers of good-aligned deities opposed to human sacrifice, their altars can be shattered, too. However, the gods themselves are known to be very real, so while you are thwarting their mortal servants, it’s always best to not personally defame the god. Mocking their holy sayings is about as far as most folk dare go. For example, a man slaying a Stormsender (priest of Talos) in battle might snarl, “Send a storm— now reap a storm!”

Only clergy, paladins, and fanatics specialize in the worship of certain deities. Everyone else in the Realms is constantly poised between the gods, making offerings, participating in rituals, and seeking guidance as they see fit from among all of the gods, as the situations and necessities of their personal lives suggest is most appropriate.

I would go so far as to say that even paladins and clergy, despite their specialisation, will make occasional small prayers to other deities in the appropriate situation, as long as the other deities are not the paladin's deity's direct opponent.

So a paladin of Torm who goes pirate hunting may make the same "Umberlee, please don't sink us" little requests as everyone else.

[woweedd]

Or, as Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms puts it:

Spoiler

Show

Folk in the Realms also pray and make offerings to deities other than their primary one. They often make these offers in the hope of appeasement, such as “We’ve got to cross the Neck in a boat, so Umberlee, please don’t sink us, and Talos, send no storms . .

It is not acceptable to treat any gods disrespectfully. Their worshippers and clergy can be resisted, yes, and sometimes, for followers of good-aligned deities opposed to human sacrifice, their altars can be shattered, too. However, the gods themselves are known to be very real, so while you are thwarting their mortal servants, it’s always best to not personally defame the god. Mocking their holy sayings is about as far as most folk dare go. For example, a man slaying a Stormsender (priest of Talos) in battle might snarl, “Send a storm— now reap a storm!”

Only clergy, paladins, and fanatics specialize in the worship of certain deities. Everyone else in the Realms is constantly poised between the gods, making offerings, participating in rituals, and seeking guidance as they see fit from among all of the gods, as the situations and necessities of their personal lives suggest is most appropriate.

I would go so far as to say that even paladins and clergy, despite their specialisation, will make occasional small prayers to other deities in the appropriate situation, as long as the other deities are not the paladin's deity's direct opponent.

So a paladin of Torm who goes pirate hunting may make the same "Umberlee, please don't sink us" little requests as everyone else.

True, although as I said, I think that might depend a little of the cleric and the god. Some Good gods are real hardasses who would get on your case for paying tribute to evil gods, and some evil gods are jealous types who will get on your case if you so much as THINK in another god's direction.

[RatElemental]

I remember running the numbers once and found that it was plausible for Tuskiko to have entered Ur-Priest in time to start taking Mystic Theuge levels, but it's all but confirmed by the giant she was a cleric of some stripe, possibly a cloistered cleric.

Given her scholarly bent, though, I'd say Archivist would fit her pretty well too.

[woweedd]

I remember running the numbers once and found that it was plausible for Tuskiko to have entered Ur-Priest in time to start taking Mystic Theuge levels, but it's all but confirmed by the giant she was a cleric of some stripe, possibly a cloistered cleric.

Given her scholarly bent, though, I'd say Archivist would fit her pretty well too.

It’d also fit with her seeming…Lacking in Wisdom.

[CountDVB]

It’d also fit with her seeming…Lacking in Wisdom.

I remember running the numbers once and found that it was plausible for Tuskiko to have entered Ur-Priest in time to start taking Mystic Theuge levels, but it's all but confirmed by the giant she was a cleric of some stripe, possibly a cloistered cleric.

Given her scholarly bent, though, I'd say Archivist would fit her pretty well too.

Yeah, she doesn’t display any antipathy toward the gods to fit being an Ur-Priest and her becoming an Archivist to learn divine magic in order to improve her necromantic capabilities along with showing off her willingness to learn esoteric secrets would make a good chunk of sense.

Might explain where she got her Wight spell from

[Precure]

Evil deities on Azurite pantheon explains how many of those alleged paladins were able to stay as paladins despite of their obvious evil tendencies and actions.

[KorvinStarmast]

Okay, hamish. Do you think Miko counts as "associating" with Lord Shojo? I can imagine paladins and LE clerics both working for the same non-evil deity (though I really question whether a lot of Undetectable Alignment spells aren't being employed there, given that paladins have a sacred duty to seek and smite the wicked.) It seems like the employee/employer relationship is closer than that.

Wasn't he her uncle? That makes the relationship even more of a mess. (Nepotism for 500, Alex).

Starting with why no-one, including folks like Thanh or Redcloak, ever asks "why are the Twelve letting her do this?"

If we consider the pantheon, The Twelve, as one unit with 12 voices / themes, we depart from a monotheistic theology/cosmology (which is where the D&D paladin concept originated, pre WoTC) and enter into deity by committee as a model.
The two models are not the same way of dealing with deity level beings.
Beyond that, The Twelve do not seem to be a polytheistic model like "Zeus, HMFIC, and his subordinate deities and his very strong willed wifedeity Hera".
The Twelve seem to be very much Deity By Committee. (And IIRC, the Seven in the Game of Thrones are also a deity by committee structure).

If the author is going to make the analogy that the Twelve came down in person to fire Miko because of her screwups, I think he pretty much is implying a boss/employee relationship (although I think comparing Miko to a random cubicle-dweller is selling her pretty short.)

The Executive VP for Operations (Smiting) is not a cubicle dweller. Miko was the most powerful Azurite paladin at that point in the story, right? She's up there in the corporate hierarchy. (Not sure what her bonus plan was, but she did get her own room in the fortress).

Evil deities on Azurite pantheon explains how many of those alleged paladins were able to stay as paladins despite of their obvious evil tendencies and actions.

Yes; if it serves us (The Twelve Collectively) it must be OK!

[Fyraltari]

Wasn't he her uncle? That makes the relationship even more of a mess. (Nepotism for 500, Alex).

Kinda. He took her in after she left the monastery (age unclear) and was the closest she had to a parental figure (to the point she nad Hinjo used to adress each other as "cousin") but they're not legally or biologically related.

"Zeus, HMFIC, and his subordinate deities and his very strong willed wifedeity Hera".

HMFIC?

The Twelve seem to be very much Deity By Committee. (And IIRC, the Seven in the Game of Thrones are also a deity by committee structure).

While the uneducated see the Seven as a pantheon, actual doctrine is that the Seven are just seven different faces of a One god. We even meet a Septon (Meribald, I think?) who splits the deity even further and prays to the Cobbler, an aspect of the Smith.

[Dion]

HMFIC?

Head MoFo In Charge, probably.

[hamishspence]

The Executive VP for Operations (Smiting) is not a cubicle dweller. Miko was the most powerful Azurite paladin at that point in the story, right? She's up there in the corporate hierarchy. (Not sure what her bonus plan was, but she did get her own room in the fortress).

But Azure City is only one nation on a big continent, and the Twelve are gods of the whole Southern continent, not just that city.

[KorvinStarmast]

But Azure City is only one nation on a big continent, and the Twelve are gods of the whole Southern continent, not just that city.

Not sure what your point is. Their pantheon is the Twelve. Nowhere have I seen that Azure City was the domain of one of the Twelve. The Twelve is their cultural divine thing.

If I may digress into a bit of Homeric comparison here - in Athens, in Ithaca, and in Troy - all of them recognized the same pantheon. (Apollo, Zeus, Athena, etc).

Azure City being just one city on the continent doesn't matter, as I see it.

[hamishspence]

The point is that Miko being a senior Sapphire Guard figure, doesn't necessarily make her a senior figure on the continent as a whole, from the Twelve's point of view.

[Lacuna Caster]

The point is that Miko being a senior Sapphire Guard figure, doesn't necessarily make her a senior figure on the continent as a whole, from the Twelve's point of view.

I might come back and revisit this tomorrow, but in addition to being a fairly high-level agent of the Gods in general (how many level 14-16 persons are there per million?) Miko was explicitly the most powerful and highest-ranking paladin in a religious organisation concerned with defending against existential threats to the planet. As Korvin put it, the Executive VP for Operations (Smiting) really only has Shojo on the chain of command between her and the Gods (and to Miko's knowledge he was crazy.)

I mean, if OotSverse was a place where the Gods were distant and unfathomable or at least clueless and indifferent, it would be one thing, and in the early story it more-or-less looks that way. But if the Gods have any investment at all in what happens on the material plane, and certainly in the kind of universe where Durkon has a direct hotline to Thor, then Miko is totally justified in expecting the Board of Directors would have some kind of special plan for her. They'd have to be idiots not to.

[Peelee]

I might come back and revisit this tomorrow, but in addition to being a fairly high-level agent of the Gods in general (how many level 14-16 persons are there per million?) Miko was explicitly the most powerful and highest-ranking paladin in a religious organisation concerned with defending against existential threats to the planet. As Korvin put it, the Executive VP for Operations (Smiting) really only has Shojo on the chain of command between her and the Gods (and to Miko's knowledge he was crazy.)

I mean, if OotSverse was a place where the Gods were distant and unfathomable or at least clueless and indifferent, it would be one thing, and in the early story it more-or-less looks that way. But if the Gods have any investment at all in what happens on the material plane, and certainly in the kind of universe where Durkon has a direct hotline to Thor, then Miko is totally justified in expecting the Board of Directors would have some kind of special plan for her. They'd have to be idiots not to.

Why would they need a specific plan for her? Yes, she is involved with an existential threat against the planet. That sounds grandiose until it's revealed this is the umpteenth-billionth planet. They can make another one, like they did umpteen-billion times before. Sure, they may not really want to overall, but they're not seeing Miko as inherently special any more than any number of other umpteen-billion high-level characters who acted on behalf of their gods to try to save the world.

[Lacuna Caster]

Why would they need a specific plan for her? Yes, she is involved with an existential threat against the planet. That sounds grandiose until it's revealed this is the umpteenth-billionth planet...

I did stipulate if they have any investment at all, but the revelation you're referring to simultaneously covers that the Dark One's emergence is a unique one-in-a-billion once-off event and that the Gods have good reason to be quite invested in the outcome. (Not that Miko knows any of this, so her expecting some specific level of divine attention would be rational either way, or at least no crazier than anything else about the context of her introduction.) I'd expect them to have a plan for Miko the same way Hel and Thrym had specific plans for their own high-ranking mortal followers.

[Dion]

I in the kind of universe where Durkon has a direct hotline to Thor…

I don’t know… it seems more like the kind of universe where one of the most important events in the 10 billion year history of the multiverse is unfolding, and Thor’s reaction is little more than to give Durkon a hammer and tell him “Go figure it out.”

I don’t think any of the gods have what you or I would call a “plan”.