Did Tsukiko worship any god(s)?

[gustmes]

As a Mythic Theurge, Tsukiko has levels in a divine spellcaster class, which I presume it would be cleric (or something like favored soul). If that is the case, did she worship any god? Is there any indication in any strip about which religion she followed, or otherwise where did her divine spells come from?

[dancrilis]

She worshipped The Twelve Gods.

Tsukiko uses the same color for her divine magic as the Azurite priests because they both worship the Twelve Gods, who are worshipped as a pantheon by all alignments in Azure City.

Also, this. The Twelve Gods are worshipped as a pantheon, by everyone, including evil characters like Kubota and Tsukiko.

This is also supported by panel 13.

[woweedd]

Probably Rat, given some indications. There are rules for being a follower of a Pantheon, and, so long as your alignment matches one member, they'll keep granting you clerical powers.

[Finagle]

Followers of the Twelve Gods worship the whole pantheon at once. Rat is shown as the "evil" one, but it could be any of them. I wish they could have been developed more, but they weren't. In our world, the 12 signs of the Chinese zodiac are assigned to you by the year of your birth. For example, it's the Year of the Bovine right now (sometimes translated to "Ox" or "Bull", but the Chinese character means a larger category. For example, Year of the Rat is better understood as "year of the mustelid".

[halfeye]

For example, it's the Year of the Bovine right now (sometimes translated to "Ox" or "Bull", but the Chinese character means a larger category. For example, Year of the Rat is better understood as "year of the mustelid".

Eh? Rats aren't mustelids. Badgers, stoats and otters are mustelids.

[Gurgeh]

"Mustelid" is definitely wrong; perhaps they meant "muroid" instead? Not that words in natural languages have neat mappings to phylogenetic clades anyway (look at the English-language uses of "bug" - even when talking about animals it's usually not "correct" in a scientific sense).

But it makes sense for it to mean, say, "rat, mouse, similarly shaped creature" instead of being ultra-specific. Lots of words work that way. Honestly, I think the better example within the eastern zodiac would have been the goat (or sheep, or ram, or... you get the point).

[halfeye]

"Mustelid" is definitely wrong; perhaps they meant "muroid" instead? Not that words in natural languages have neat mappings to phylogenetic clades anyway (look at the English-language uses of "bug" - even when talking about animals it's usually not "correct" in a scientific sense).

But it makes sense for it to mean, say, "rat, mouse, similarly shaped creature" instead of being ultra-specific. Lots of words work that way. Honestly, I think the better example within the eastern zodiac would have been the goat (or sheep, or ram, or... you get the point).

Yeah, murid is confusable, but at the level of Mustelid, it would be Rodent, and that doesn't seem so confusable. The chinese word probably is a portmanteau of small creatures, possibly Rodent isn't a good fit, but I can't believe that if rats and mice are included Mustelid is a better fit.

[Gift Jeraff]

I don't get why everyone assumes Rat is the only Evil Southern god. I like to think there is at least 1 per alignment.

[Ron Miel]

Is there direct evidence he's evil at all? He's shown to be a friend of the newly ascended Dark One, but that doesn't prove he's evil.

[Gurgeh]

Yeah, murid is confusable, but at the level of Mustelid, it would be Rodent, and that doesn't seem so confusable.

Mustelidae and Muridae are both taxonomic families, the same Linnaean rank. Rodentia is an order, way higher up the chain (and casting a far wider net); the mustelids' equivalent order would be Carnivora. The idea of strict ranked taxonomy is somewhat on the way out in favour of cladistics (groupings that consist entirely of organisms that are more closely related to one another than to anything not in the group), at any rate.

[Peelee]

I don't get why everyone assumes Rat is the only Evil Southern god. I like to think there is at least 1 per alignment.

Aye. 9 alignments, 12 gods, odds are there ain't just one evil one.

[Rrmcklin]

I don't get why everyone assumes Rat is the only Evil Southern god. I like to think there is at least 1 per alignment.

Same. It seems similar to assume that Loki is the only Evil God of the North because he's the only one that associated with the Dark One.

Is there direct evidence he's evil at all? He's shown to be a friend of the newly ascended Dark One, but that doesn't prove he's evil.

The gods who associated with the Dark One were explicitly said to be some of the evil ones. So even if you don't want to call that explicit confirmation it, it's definitely evidence. Then again, Loki is the stand out and you still had some people arguing that he might not have been evil either.

[Gurgeh]

The explicit mention of the evil gods taking the Dark One's side in Start of Darkness only depicts Loki and Tiamat - but Rat is standing with them in what may be an alternative depiction of the same event in 1143, so it's a reasonable association.

Beyond those three, it's pretty hard to argue against Hel and Fenrir ("Tear down the world! Murder everyone! Piss on their graves!") being evil. Some other gods in the Northern pantheon are open for debate, and we haven't really seen enough of the Southern and Western gods to judge.

[hroþila]

Fun fact: names for cats and various mustelids were often interchangeable in ancient times, and the very word "cat" might originally have referred to any domesticated mustelid. I don't think this is ever going to be more relevant than in this thread.

[Finagle]

Well, here I was trying to show off when asked if it was the Year of the Rat or the Year of the Mouse, as it gets translated as both, and I was informed it was a higher classification that included both. Maybe this comic about the "Year of the Goat" will help it make more sense.

[The MunchKING]

Same. It seems similar to assume that Loki is the only Evil God of the North because he's the only one that associated with the Dark One.

The problem with that comparison is the North have had more of the members fleshed out, so we can be pretty sure Fenrir and Hel are evil.

But the South hasn't. We know very little about any of the individual God's personalities. They are worshipped collectively, so they may not even HAVE distinct personalities.

[Doug Lampert]

Followers of the Twelve Gods worship the whole pantheon at once. Rat is shown as the "evil" one, but it could be any of them. I wish they could have been developed more, but they weren't. In our world, the 12 signs of the Chinese zodiac are assigned to you by the year of your birth. For example, it's the Year of the Bovine right now (sometimes translated to "Ox" or "Bull", but the Chinese character means a larger category. For example, Year of the Rat is better understood as "year of the mustelid".

I occasionally note that I was born early enough in the year that it was prior to the Chinese new year, so I actually am a Rabbit when if you just go by the year you'd expect dragon.

[Rrmcklin]

The problem with that comparison is the North have had more of the members fleshed out, so we can be pretty sure Fenrir and Hel are evil.

But the South hasn't. We know very little about any of the individual God's personalities. They are worshipped collectively, so they may not even HAVE distinct personalities.

I mean, that doesn't actually address my point. People were talking as if Rat was the, as in singular, evil god of the Southern Pantheon before we got exploration of the North.

And going "they're worshiped collectively so they might not be distinct from one another at all" just sounds faulty on its face because they have been talked about and shown in individual roles, even if not to the extent the Northern Gods have.

[arimareiji]

Put me down for "Although I imagine she counted herself among the worshipers of one or more gods, the main one she worshiped was the one between her ears."

It can be funny and/or a bit sad to give pet names to other parts of yourself (e.g. the "Trouser Titan")... but it's almost always really sad to give your ego the name of "Odin", "Rat", or what have you.

[Squire Doodad]

Aye. 9 alignments, 12 gods, odds are there ain't just one evil one.

If they're the balanced-oriented kind of people, maybe there's 1 apiece, followed by a second for each of NG, NE, LN and CN
EDIT: Let's say NG, NE and TN because I had one too many. Blame Peelee.

The explicit mention of the evil gods taking the Dark One's side in Start of Darkness only depicts Loki and Tiamat - but Rat is standing with them in what may be an alternative depiction of the same event in 1143, so it's a reasonable association.

Beyond those three, it's pretty hard to argue against Hel and Fenrir ("Tear down the world! Murder everyone! Piss on their graves!") being evil. Some other gods in the Northern pantheon are open for debate, and we haven't really seen enough of the Southern and Western gods to judge.

Well, based on Malack's statement, we can probably guess Nergal is Neutral with an Evil...Malack was the high priest, right?
In any case, we haven't seen much of them, and probably won't.

As for the South...
If I had to guess, Monkey is probably a god of forging or craftsmanship, while I think Rooster was mentioned to be an "oracle" style god. I'd guess Ox is a god of fertility and harvest because, you know, oxen, but I don't think much about the rest has been mentioned in the comic.

It's possible Tsukiko specifically worshipped Rat among the 12, but for all we know Dog is an Evil god of magic and necromancy (dogs dig up bones, right?) who appreciated Tuskiko's take on using undead. There's probably not much to be gained from wondering about it.

[Peelee]

If they're the balanced-oriented kind of people, maybe there's 1 apiece, followed by a second for each of NG, NE, LN and CN

That's 13.

[Squire Doodad]

That's 13.

One NG, one NE, one TN then?
Not that it matters, it could be one LG one TN and one CE for all I care.

[Gurgeh]

Well, based on Malack's statement, we can probably guess Nergal is Neutral with an Evil...Malack was the high priest, right?
In any case, we haven't seen much of them, and probably won't.

Malack's statement explicitly casts doubt on Nergal being evil, though given his broader deceptions around his vampiric condition I wouldn't fault anyone who takes it as an attempt to make doubt for doubt's sake rather than an assertion that Nergal is not evil.

With the very limited information presented to us, you could probably make a reasonable case for Nergal fitting any of the LE corner alignments (LN, LE, NE). Malack himself was the high priest of the Empire of Blood, but not necessarily Nergal's principal servant (I feel there's some semantic collision there).

[woweedd]

Malack's statement explicitly casts doubt on Nergal being evil, though given his broader deceptions around his vampiric condition I wouldn't fault anyone who takes it as an attempt to make doubt for doubt's sake rather than an assertion that Nergal is not evil.

With the very limited information presented to us, you could probably make a reasonable case for Nergal fitting any of the LE corner alignments (LN, LE, NE). Malack himself was the high priest of the Empire of Blood, but not necessarily Nergal's principal servant (I feel there's some semantic collision there).

...OK, you remember that trick Tarquin pulled where he said he’d send forces to the Free City of Doom, but not what side they’d be on? I think that’s basically what Malack was doing when he said that death gods and their Clerics aren’t nessicarly evil. He’s not technically saying anything untrue, but he’s concealing the truth. All of which is to say that I do think Nergal is just as evil as Malack.

[hamishspence]

If they're the balanced-oriented kind of people, maybe there's 1 apiece, followed by a second for each of NG, NE, LN and CN
EDIT: Let's say NG, NE and TN because I had one too many. Blame Peelee.

My theory has tended to be "One for every Outer Plane that isn't at least Mildly Evil".

So -

Outlands (N)
Pandemonium (CN to CE)
Limbo (CN)
Arcadia (CN to CG)
Arborea (CG)
Beastlands (CG to NG)
Elysium (NG)
Bytopia (NG to LG)
Celestia (LG)
Arcadia (LN to LG)
Mechanus (LN)
Acheron (LN to LE)

The OOTS versions of these, at least.

That's 12. Rat would be LE, mildly, and live in Acheron, same plane as the Dark One, hence Rat's being painted as one of his few "allies among the evil gods" - sharing a plane meant coming to some kind of truce.

It allows for there to be clerics of all 9 alignments (N deity in the Outlands can have NE clerics) while still keeping the emphasis on them being biased toward Good, with Azure City's being strongly afflilated with Good (albeit falling down in some specific areas).

[Shadowknight12]

Personally I'd err on the side of extra neutral alignments instead of extra good and evil ones, since that seems less prone to conflict and more able to cover followers of all moral dispositions (at least as far as good and evil go), so my personal bet for the 12 Gods would be 1 for every alignment, plus an extra CN, TN and LN.

This makes both the evil and the good gods outvoted 2 to 1 and almost guarantees the neutral gods will go unimpeded as a voting block, since even if the good and the evil gods team up, that still merely deadlocks them 50/50.

[Silly Name]

I know this is pure headcanon, but I always suspected the Southern Pantheon has a Lawful slant to it, but that's mostly because we have seen more Azurite paladins than non-paladins and that colours my impression of them a bit.

There being a Neutral slant also makes sense, though, especially if the multiple Neutral gods act as bridges between the extremities of the alignment axis, allowing the Pantheon to function as a cohesive whole and ensure all worshippers are granted equal representation.

[faustin]

Could the Gods have chosen to strip Tsukiko from their patronage for cooperating with Team Evil and the goblins? I don't imagine any of them (even Rat) particularly happy about losing Azure City, and even less about the destroyed Gate.
Again I don't know the rules they must abide regarding clerics, much less their inner politics.

[Shadowknight12]

Could the Gods have chosen to strip Tsukiko from their patronage for cooperating with Team Evil and the goblins? I don't imagine any of them (even Rat) particularly happy about losing Azure City, and even less about the destroyed Gate.
Again I don't know the rules they must abide regarding clerics, much less their inner politics.

In 3.5e, clerics do have a paladin-like fall system:

Ex-Clerics

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

Presumably, because Tsukiko was still casting cleric spells just fine as a mystic theurge, she still retained her god's patronage despite siding with Xykon. Do keep in mind that Tsukiko officially joined them after the Gate had already been destroyed and Azure City had fallen. While she did betray Azure City almost immediately, her actions had no effect on the battle's results and, if anything, momentarily distracted both Xykon and Redcloak from pursuing their goals, giving the defenders a few extra seconds to evacuate (and the fact that she made herself a target of Redcloak's chlorine elemental and was forced to kill it may have inadvertently saved innocent lives down the line).

We don't really know how "on top of things" gods are in the OOTS world. Durkon complains that Thor "always ignores Communes" even though Durkon has been on a mission of world-important proportions for months, and we know that Hylgia has been praying to Loki to find Durkon for a very long time and despite her being a high-level cleric of him, he hasn't seen fit to keep her in the loop about anything, even though it would have actually been useful for the OOTS to have some clerical help to take vampire!Durkon down before he actually made it to the Godsmoot and deadlocked the vote.

So it's possible that whoever was giving Tsukiko clerical power just wasn't too on top of what she was actually doing.

[snowblizz]

We don't really know how "on top of things" gods are in the OOTS world. Durkon complains that Thor "always ignores Communes" even though Durkon has been on a mission of world-important proportions for months,

It's almost like there was a god-wide conspiracy to suppress information about certain rifts in reality.

So it's possible that whoever was giving Tsukiko clerical power just wasn't too on top of what she was actually doing.

I think we can basically chalk it up to the gods internal politicking means they are very hands-off lest they kick off new Snarls. I get the feeling stripping a cleric of their powers of the combined pantheon, will be a very politicky situation. And the 12 definitely seems to be working as one in such cases, that is you don't really pray individually to the 12. So it's simply quite hard to strip someone of their powers in such a system. You have to really be directly and specifically working against all the gods of the pantheon as a whole. And the Northern Gods show us fulyl half are prepared to let this world go. Say you want that new idea for a seacoast then letting some mortal push the rest closer to pulling the world's plug is a perfectly reasonable course of action. So you grant powers to the cleric.
Or have easy rules (not as in D&D rules) based mechanics for it such as the Paladin class. You don't have to discuss or argue whether a paladin did wrong.

And I think especially in the Snarl-rifts-gates blackout scenario the gods are more reluctant to start stepping on toes lest they draw more scrutiny on it.