Did Tsukiko worship any god(s)?

[Shadowknight12]

It's almost like there was a god-wide conspiracy to suppress information about certain rifts in reality.

If that spell exists, it means it's allowed to be used. So why would you ignore one of your most important followers actually giving you a chance to help them out in a way the other gods can't bug you about? So far Roy's point about "I don't think the gods have our best interests in mind" seems to be a fairly accurate description of the gods as a whole.

I think we can basically chalk it up to the gods internal politicking means they are very hands-off lest they kick off new Snarls.

Snarls can't happen within gods of the same pantheon. The whole point of the snarl being extremely powerful and scary is that it was made of the disagreements of gods of different pantheons. If the 12 Gods all get into a big fight amongst each other, no Snarl happens because they all share the same quiddity.

EDIT: For further evidence of this, see the scene where Hel absolutely loses it against Loki, to the point where she visibly changes and later becomes almost transparent, and yet no snarl occurs.

[snowblizz]

If that spell exists, it means it's allowed to be used. So why would you ignore one of your most important followers actually giving you a chance to help them out in a way the other gods can't bug you about? So far Roy's point about "I don't think the gods have our best interests in mind" seems to be a fairly accurate description of the gods as a whole.

And no one is stopping the use. You can commune all you want but the gods aren't allowed to answer as per their agreement.
The whole point is there is a very complex set of rules surrounding what the gods are allowed to do that they have set up.
It takes Durkon talking to Thor when dead specifically mentioning the Snarl to be able to get direct information. And even though Thor is willing to spill on the flimsiest excuse now there's a glimmer of hope that doesn't mean he can just ignore the rules completely. Thor goes on at length about the issues, but that doesn't mean all the rules are known either.

I fail to see where anyone said the gods had peoples best interests in mind. Did I just not point out the god who cares more about the next coastline layout?

Snarls can't happen within gods of the same pantheon. The whole point of the snarl being extremely powerful and scary is that it was made of the disagreements of gods of different pantheons. If the 12 Gods all get into a big fight amongst each other, no Snarl happens because they all share the same quiddity.

EDIT: For further evidence of this, see the scene where Hel absolutely loses it against Loki, to the point where she visibly changes and later becomes almost transparent, and yet no snarl occurs.

A same colour snarl is not a problem as the (any) other god can will it away as easily. A two colour snarl is a big problem because it takes at least 2 pantheons to undo. A 3 colour snarl would be catastrophic and a four colour snarl is a cosmic level threat. But even inside pantheons we get conflicts that are covered by rules. Like the Godsmoot shows.

FWIW worth Rat is furious, it's not entirely clear if it is the destruction of Azure city or some of the 12 refusal to deal with the Dark One.

[Fyraltari]

We don't really know how "on top of things" gods are in the OOTS world. Durkon complains that Thor "always ignores Communes" even though Durkon has been on a mission of world-important proportions for months, and we know that Hylgia has been praying to Loki to find Durkon for a very long time and despite her being a high-level cleric of him, he hasn't seen fit to keep her in the loop about anything, even though it would have actually been useful for the OOTS to have some clerical help to take vampire!Durkon down before he actually made it to the Godsmoot and deadlocked the vote.

What makes you think Durkon has casted Commune since Azure City?
Also I don't see how Hilgya could have reached the Order before they got to the Dwarven Lands.

[Silly Name]

Commune has some pretty restrictive rules already, and uses some interesting language:

You contact your deity—or agents thereof —and ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no.[...]The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity’s knowledge. “Unclear” is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient.

and

The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes.

Since Thor was bound by a divine pact (which, if I were to make a guess, is enforced through some more efficient rules than "I pinky swear"), he most likely couldn't have given an answer to Durkon's questions on the Gate even if he wanted to. If the commune was being answered by an angel (or similar creature in Thor's service), which is also possible, then the angel wouldn't have been able to provide useful information anyways.

[Shadowknight12]

And no one is stopping the use. You can commune all you want but the gods aren't allowed to answer as per their agreement.

I never said Thor had to say anything about the Snarl in the Commune. Thor could, however, still answer Durkon's Communes and respond about any other topic that wasn't the Snarl. Durkon's assertion that "you never answer those" states Thor never answers any Communes whatsoever.

A same colour snarl is not a problem as the (any) other god can will it away as easily.

The explanation given here states "when the pantheons could not agree" not "when the gods could not agree". And as I mentioned in my previous post, this highly dramatic moment didn't create a snarl, not even one that needed to be willed or waved away easily. It just didn't happen.

What makes you think Durkon has casted Commune since Azure City?
Also I don't see how Hilgya could have reached the Order before they got to the Dwarven Lands.

It doesn't matter when's the last time Durkon has cast Commune when Thor should have picked up the phone and provided some form of guidance, however cryptic it has to be, since they blew up Dorukan's Gate?

[Fyraltari]

It doesn't matter when's the last time Durkon has cast Commune when Thor should have picked up the phone and provided some form of guidance, however cryptic it has to be, since they blew up Dorukan's Gate?

Well, yes it very much does matter, until Durkon was told about the Snarl by Shojo Durkon wasn't "Thor's most important Cleric". Durkon had been a Cleric of Thor for twenty years before Dorukan's Dungeon. That's plenty of time for Durkon to cast Commune and not get a response (because he couldn't be arsed or because he didn't want to interfere with thr plan he thought Odin had for Durkon or both) often enough for Durkon to conclude Commune isn't a reliable way to talk to Thor and not try it after he learnt of the Gates.

[Shadowknight12]

Well, yes it very much does matter, until Durkon was told about the Snarl by Shojo Durkon wasn't "Thor's most important Cleric". Durkon had been a Cleric of Thor for twenty years before Dorukan's Dungeon. That's plenty of time for Durkon to cast Commune and not get a response (because he couldn't be arsed or because he didn't want to interfere with thr plan he thought Odin had for Durkon or both) often enough for Durkon to conclude Commune isn't a reliable way to talk to Thor and not try it after he learnt of the Gates.

That still just furthers my original point of "he was one of the most important clerics Thor had and he still didn't pick up the Commune". Even if it was pre-Azure City, what else are you doing that's more important than keeping tabs on a cleric that was near the destruction of one of the Gates? What other clerics do you have that are commanding more attention than Durkon?

[dancrilis]

Thor should have picked up the phone and provided some form of guidance, however cryptic it has to be, since they blew up Dorukan's Gate?

He did - he sent a storm that allowed Miko to catch them unaware and kept Durkon out of the fight without which Miko might have lost and the OOTS might never have heard about the Snarl.

Well, yes it very much does matter, until Durkon was told about the Snarl by Shojo Durkon wasn't "Thor's most important Cleric". Durkon had been a Cleric of Thor for twenty years before Dorukan's Dungeon.

If you accept the general concensus about the starting levels of the order then Durkon would not have been able to cast the spell until after they started in the Dungeon (I don't accept that concensus but I am a bit of a contrarian).

[Silly Name]

Again, keep in mind that "Commune" can only give very limited information: usually, any answer is either "Yes", "No" or "Uncertain", and the questions themselves should be worded as yes/no question.

Even if Thor could have given Durkon unlimited information on the Gates, the Commune spell wouldn't have let him do that.

[Shadowknight12]

He did - he sent a storm that allowed Miko to catch them unaware and kept Durkon out of the fight without which Miko might have lost and the OOTS might never have heard about the Snarl.

That's not quite how the comic portrays it.

If you accept the general concensus about the starting levels of the order then Durkon would not have been able to cast the spell until after they started in the Dungeon (I don't accept that concensus but I am a bit of a contrarian).

Be that as it may, at some point Durkon was high enough level to cast it, either in the same dungeon as a Gate, or at some point it was destroyed.

EDIT:

Again, keep in mind that "Commune" can only give very limited information: usually, any answer is either "Yes", "No" or "Uncertain", and the questions themselves should be worded as yes/no question.

Even if Thor could have given Durkon unlimited information on the Gates, the Commune spell wouldn't have let him do that.

I'm not nitpicking Thor for not meeting an arbitrary quality of Commune responding. My point is that, as per Durkon, Thor doesn't answer any Communes whatsoever.

[dancrilis]

That's not quite how the comic portrays it.

Thor had a few balls to juggle.
1. The angels couldn't know he was doing something with the Snarl as they are not privy to that information.
2. He wanted Durkon to find out about the Snarl.

His storm did the second and his drink and blindfold did the first.

You asked for cryptic guidance to get Durkon on the right path - how much more cryptic should he have been?

[Shadowknight12]

Thor had a few balls to juggle.
1. The angels couldn't know he was doing something with the Snarl as they are not privy to that information.
2. He wanted Durkon to find out about the Snarl.

His storm did the second and his drink and blindfold did the first.

You asked for cryptic guidance to get Durkon on the right path - how much more cryptic should he have been?

That's not what I meant. I didn't say Thor should've done more active guidance outside of his followers' spells and class features, like the storm with Miko or the storm with the Mechane. I said he should've picked up the phone when a follower is calling, which is part of your job as a god. I'm not asking Thor to go above and beyond what he's supposed to do as a god. I'm saying he should've been doing what he's supposed to be doing, which is answering his clerics' Commune spells.

[Fyraltari]

That still just furthers my original point of "he was one of the most important clerics Thor had and he still didn't pick up the Commune". Even if it was pre-Azure City, what else are you doing that's more important than keeping tabs on a cleric that was near the destruction of one of the Gates?

Watching Team Evil, taking care of his mentally-challenged father, rescuing dwarven sould from Hel come to mind, fighting Surtr.
And that's just the thing we know he does. As a good god in a universe full of magic and monsters he probably has a lot on his plate.

And that's all still assuming Durkon casted Commune after reaching Dorukan's Gate which we have no reason to do.

[arimareiji]

That's not what I meant. I didn't say Thor should've done more active guidance outside of his followers' spells and class features, like the storm with Miko or the storm with the Mechane. I said he should've picked up the phone when a follower is calling, which is part of your job as a god. I'm not asking Thor to go above and beyond what he's supposed to do as a god. I'm saying he should've been doing what he's supposed to be doing, which is answering his clerics' Commune spells.

In case a link to the exact wording might be useful: Panel 3.

Thor: When you get the Dark One's cleric to agree, just cast Commune and I'll tell you what to do.
Durkon: Och, ye nev'r answer those!
Thor: Yeah, but I'll set a special ring tone for this.

I don't know of any specific occasions where Durkon^* cast Commune, let alone what questions he asked, but he seems to have tried at least twice.
_{* - Iirc Durkula did, but that's a completely different mug of beer.}

[Fyraltari]

In case a link to the exact wording might be useful: Panel 3.

I don't know of any specific occasions where Durkon^* cast Commune, let alone what questions he asked, but he seems to have tried at least twice.
_{* - Iirc Durkula did, but that's a completely different mug of beer.}

I'm gonna bet on stuff like "Why did High Priest Hurak exile me?"

[Silly Name]

Technically, communes can be answered by servants of the chosen deity (and I would expect most are). I now headcanon Durkon's line about complaining never getting to talk to Thor directly and having to always talk to the divine version of a very bored secretary.

[arimareiji]

I'm gonna bet on stuff like "Why did High Priest Hurak exile me?"

That particular question would be logical, and would fit pretty well with why he got no answer. Still, before the explanation arc we did get a pretty distinct impression of Thor as... well, let's say "hands-off management style".

(kidding) Uh-oh. I guess since we're back to "topics about which reasonable people can disagree, since interpretation is subjective and there's no absolute proof one way or another" we should just burn the topic to the ground and salt the fields. (^_~) (/kidding)

Technically, communes can be answered by servants of the chosen deity (and I would expect most are). I now headcanon Durkon's line about complaining never getting to talk to Thor directly and having to always talk to the divine version of a very bored secretary.

I'm stealing the mental image of Durkon rolling his eyes, for the next time I'm stuck on the real-world equivalent of ThorPrayer™.

[Emberlily]

Something to consider about the southern pantheon is that Azurites are only a portion of their followers. The priests we see at the glimpse of the southern godsmoot seem very diverse, and Azure City's territory isn't even the largest country in the south.

War and XPs' did show us the character of the "High Priest of the Southern Gods" being Azurite, but that role seems to have been First among Equals from how the godsmoot has one distinct high priest for each southern god, each around a round table with no distinct hierarchy.

The southern gods were certainly very upset at the destruction of one of the most important cities of the south by people outside their religion. But someone who worships their pantheon taking part in an attack against a southern city, even their own, probably wouldn't be enough to strip a cleric of their power.

[JonahFalcon]

Commune only has three answers: "yes", "no", "answer unclear, come back later". And Thor and Odin aren't sure why Odin told him to kick Durkon out anyway.

[Peelee]

Commune only has three answers: "yes", "no", "answer unclear, come back later".

In RAW, yes. In Stickworld, apparently not.

[urbanwolf]

It could be that none of the 12 gds are good or evil. One could say that Pig is evil because pigs are greedy, and another could argue that pigs are smart so Pig is good. Rat could be the one dealing with the dark one because rat is the best at diplomacy.

The only time I remember one of the 12 gods talking was 8n the snarl crayon story and monkey added ninjas to the world because they are cool.

[JonahFalcon]

In RAW, yes. In Stickworld, apparently not.

You may notice Durkon isn't asking any questions.

[Peelee]

You may notice Durkon isn't asking any questions.

Spells explicitly allow things. Spells do not implicitly allow things that are not explicitly disallowed. Commune, in RAW, does not allow for "have an extended conversation with the target of the spell so long as you don't ask a question".

Further, even if we were to be incredibly magnanimous and assume that a spell does implicitly allow things not explicitly disallowed, Commune in RAW still does not allow for "have an extended conversation with the target of the spell so long as you don't ask a question", since if you do not ask a question - or even if you don't ask a question quickly enough - the spell fails.

So, again, Commune apparently does not work in Stickworld the way it does in RAW.

[Rrmcklin]

It could be that none of the 12 gds are good or evil. One could say that Pig is evil because pigs are greedy, and another could argue that pigs are smart so Pig is good. Rat could be the one dealing with the dark one because rat is the best at diplomacy.

The only time I remember one of the 12 gods talking was 8n the snarl crayon story and monkey added ninjas to the world because they are cool.

Arguing that Intelligence is specifically an attribute exclusively and most prominently aligned with Good people would be an inherently shaky premise.

You're correct we know basically nothing about them, but that's not a reason to assume they're all just completely neutral based off of nothing.

[arimareiji]

Arguing that Intelligence is specifically an attribute exclusively and most prominently aligned with Good people would be an inherently shaky premise.

You're correct we know basically nothing about them, but that's not a reason to assume they're all just completely neutral based off of nothing.

I agree, it'd be a bad idea to assert they're all Neutral when all we have are assumptions based on our personal biases (of which "cultural" is a subset).

I'd go farther and say it's just as bad of an idea to assert any given one is Neutral, Good, or Evil based on our biases. I'm not sure, but I got the feeling that might have been what urbanwolf was trying to express.

[JonahFalcon]

Spells explicitly allow things. Spells do not implicitly allow things that are not explicitly disallowed. Commune, in RAW, does not allow for "have an extended conversation with the target of the spell so long as you don't ask a question".

Irrelevant. The question wasn't about "why is it taking so long". It's "why didn't Thor answer Durkon's questions about why he was exiled?"

[Peelee]

Irrelevant. The question wasn't about "why is it taking so long". It's "why didn't Thor answer Durkon's questions about why he was exiled?"

Directly relevant to what I was quoting, which was "You may notice Durkon isn't asking any questions." As for the original question your statement is still apparently wrong, since it very much appears that RAW Commune is not how Stickworld Commune works.

If you want to solely focus on the original question, then making statements that refer to the current events instead of long past events is an odd choice. Also, the correct answer would be "Because Thor didn't answer the Commune", as Durkon himself told us.

[CountDVB]

Given how Tsukiko is, maybe she is a Ur-priest instead of a cleric? Would that fill the requirements to be a Mystic Theurge?

[MReav]

While we already had Word of the Giant, deity-less clerics are a thing. The Brotherhood of Stone is a group of such people. If I were to hazard a guess, if she didn't get her power from a deity/pantheon she'd probably worship Death and Knowledge.

[Squire Doodad]

While we already had Word of the Giant, deity-less clerics are a thing. The Brotherhood of Stone is a group of such people. If I were to hazard a guess, if she didn't get her power from a deity/pantheon she'd probably worship Death and Knowledge.

The Creed of Stone don't actually get their spells from "the earth", they actually get them from some incredibly old and powerful elementals who play the role a god would.