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  1. - Top - End - #481
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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JonahFalcon View Post
    Just realized...

    Hey, V, buddy... you don't get to withdraw from the conversation, since you threatened to murder Elan with Disintegrate.

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html
    Well, they were talking about back before Elan's character development.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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  2. - Top - End - #482
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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Well, they were talking about back before Elan's character development.
    I think that might also have been before much of Elan's character development - which likely was shown panel 8 - stories don't matter that much compared to other things and panel 11 - where they learned that acting at random could in fact be negative.

    Roy for instance was pretty dismissive of Elan long after Vaarsuvius threatened him, for instance panel 2.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JonahFalcon View Post
    Just realized...

    Hey, V, buddy... you don't get to withdraw from the conversation, since you threatened to murder Elan with Disintegrate.

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html
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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JonahFalcon View Post
    Just realized...

    Hey, V, buddy... you don't get to withdraw from the conversation, since you threatened to murder Elan with Disintegrate.
    There is the fact the Elan never actually figured out that he was being threatened here, however

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    I think the difference is that wasn't a case of targeted behavior towards Elan. V would have threatened anyone posing that kind of obstacle to their path at that point.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Coyote View Post
    I think the difference is that wasn't a case of targeted behavior towards Elan. V would have threatened anyone posing that kind of obstacle to their path at that point.
    V actually did disintegrate Kubota without hesitation for the crimes of 1) being a villain (but that mustache didn't do him any favors), and 2) threatening to engulf them in another prolonged trial*. Then Elan made the same threat, but with V being on trial rather than Kubota.

    Not that this (or the above) justifies V's behavior, but as background I think it would be fair to say V was also showing signs of PTSD at that time. Watching people butchered in battle and being helpless to prevent it (while also being cursed for it) is not good for the psyche.

    * - I sorta wonder if the Giant initially thought about having a trial, and the dissertation V's finger gave was how he outwardly expressed changing his mind. If so, bravo.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    V actually did disintegrate Kubota without hesitation for the crimes of 1) being a villain (but that mustache didn't do him any favors), and 2) threatening to engulf them in another prolonged trial*. Then Elan made the same threat, but with V being on trial rather than Kubota.

    Not that this (or the above) justifies V's behavior, but as background I think it would be fair to say V was also showing signs of PTSD at that time. Watching people butchered in battle and being helpless to prevent it (while also being cursed for it) is not good for the psyche.
    Elan didn't experience the same thing? Haley didn't? Durkon didn't?

    And sorry -- to use war analogies if you're going to mention PTSD -- but threatening to frag a longtime member of your battalion?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JonahFalcon View Post
    Elan didn't experience the same thing? Haley didn't? Durkon didn't?
    It doesn't matter. Even if they experienced the exact same thing (they didn't), different people respond differently. Two people can go to a war, go through the same things, and one may have PTSD and one may not.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JonahFalcon View Post
    Elan didn't experience the same thing? Haley didn't? Durkon didn't?
    V, Elan, Haley and Durkon are all different people.

    You’ll notice the cartoon isn’t simply called “stick”, with just one person experiencing and reacting to their surroundings.

    That might be easier to draw, though.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    This reminds me of the moment when I looked at the Dragon Warrior III world map and suddenly realized how blatantly it was based on Earth, down to the thinly-veiled country/city names.
    I got the impression that DQ3 was meant to be like the Lord of the Rings: in universe, the setting literally is the Earth, except that DQ3 is set somewhere around the 1500s (with the addition of the lost continent of Atlantis), while Tolkien's work is framed ancient history prior to the age of man.

    And it's hard to stick the implications being implied here, given that the reference Enix chose for their home country is the fairy tale of a forgettable rural village sacrificing their children as offerings to a monster under the direction of the local priestess (who turns out to be the monster in disguise).
    Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-04-10 at 10:57 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It doesn't matter. Even if they experienced the exact same thing (they didn't), different people respond differently. Two people can go to a war, go through the same things, and one may have PTSD and one may not.
    That being said V did have a somewhat different experience; they were separated from the Order and ran out of spells, so they cast Invisibility on themselves and fled, leaving the soldiers guarding the breach on their own. Part of the reason they didn't trance seems to be the nightmares from that guilt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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  12. - Top - End - #492
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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    That being said V did have a somewhat different experience; they were separated from the Order and ran out of spells, so they cast Invisibility on themselves and fled, leaving the soldiers guarding the breach on their own. Part of the reason they didn't trance seems to be the nightmares from that guilt.
    "Guilt" is indeed how V has repeatedly expressed it, and a significant number of forum denizens. I'm curious, though: What should V have done instead?

    The two most obvious options are
    • "Be more powerful somehow" (V's preferred choice, but it's even less rational than the common survivors'-guilt mantra of "I should have known somehow"), or
    • "Be butchered alongside them" (I'm not sure who/how that would have helped, other than Team Evil or hypothetical reverse-It's-a-Wonderful-Life-style beneficiaries).
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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    I'm curious, though: What should V have done instead?
    Accepted that they had no ability to alter things, realise that the dead humans who blamed them were speaking out of misdirected anger and gotten on with their life - if they weren't able to do that naturally then they could have developed a spell for it.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Accepted that they had no ability to alter things, realise that the dead humans who blamed them were speaking out of misdirected anger and gotten on with their life -
    That's a lot easier to say than to do.

    if they weren't able to do that naturally then they could have developed a spell for it.
    That strikes me as more in the line of divine magic -- a healing thing -- than arcane.

    Instant Therapy
    Conjuration (Healing)
    Level: Clr 5, Drd 5, Healing 5
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: Special, see text
    Range: Touch
    Target: Creature touched
    Duration: Special, see text
    Saving Throw: Will half (harmless); see text
    Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless); see text

    With this spell, a caster can simulate the effects of long-term psychological counselling and therapy. The casting time is one hour for each desired year of simulated therapy, to a maximum of one hour per caster level. At the DM's discretion, it can be useful in curing or inducing some forms of insanity but cannot cure or induce magical insanity. It may be a useful adjunct to Atonement.

    ... But seriously, no. That's getting into "just get over it" territory.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    That's a lot easier to say than to do.



    That strikes me as more in the line of divine magic -- a healing thing -- than arcane.

    Instant Therapy
    Conjuration (Healing)
    Level: Clr 5, Drd 5, Healing 5
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: Special, see text
    Range: Touch
    Target: Creature touched
    Duration: Special, see text
    Saving Throw: Will half (harmless); see text
    Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless); see text

    With this spell, a caster can simulate the effects of long-term psychological counselling and therapy. The casting time is one hour for each desired year of simulated therapy, to a maximum of one hour per caster level. At the DM's discretion, it can be useful in curing or inducing some forms of insanity but cannot cure or induce magical insanity. It may be a useful adjunct to Atonement.

    ... But seriously, no. That's getting into "just get over it" territory.
    I suspect that Dancrilis was being facetious by giving a 'just get over it' answer - there's no realistic answer to danielxcutter's question, because guilt - even if it was just guilt - can be had over something that you had no choice over, or no realistic other choice. Maybe that's my reading, though - tone and facetiousness is tricky to get via internet.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Accepted that they had no ability to alter things, realise that the dead humans who blamed them were speaking out of misdirected anger and gotten on with their life - if they weren't able to do that naturally then they could have developed a spell for it.
    Thank you for helping to clarify what I was trying to express. I'm not asking what V should have felt, I'm trying to get the bottom of "What is V 'guilty' of?".

    I.e. what should V have done instead, to not be "guilty" of a vaguely-defined (for good reason) crime?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Thank you for helping to clarify what I was trying to express. I'm not asking what V should have felt, I'm trying to get the bottom of "What is V 'guilty' of?".

    I.e. what should V have done instead, to not be "guilty" of a vaguely-defined (for good reason) crime?
    Feeling guilt for doing what needed to be done is a thing, and is realistic for the character in that scenario. Heck, guilt for not being stronger or able to do more is exactly what I'd expect the character to feel. So, V should be feeling guilty; we agree on that. So why does there need to be an alternative, something that they "should" have done?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    I.e. what should V have done instead, to not be "guilty" of a vaguely-defined (for good reason) crime?
    Guilty and guilty are two totally different words that have the same spelling, like buffalo, buffalo, and buffalo.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-04-10 at 01:59 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Feruk View Post
    Feeling guilt for doing what needed to be done is a thing, and is realistic for the character in that scenario. Heck, guilt for not being stronger or able to do more is exactly what I'd expect the character to feel. So, V should be feeling guilty; we agree on that. So why does there need to be an alternative, something that they "should" have done?
    Again: I'm not trying to address V's feelings at all.

    I'm asking what V should have done to not be "guilty" of whatever inchoate crime is being imputed to them, because I've heard people imply on a number of previous occasions that V should feel guilty because they did something wrong*. Knowing what someone should have done to be "right" is a good stepping-stone to know what they did "wrong".
    * - Wrt the topic of "at the end of the battle for Azure City".
    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Guilty and guilty are two totally different words that have the same spelling, like buffalo, buffalo, and buffalo.
    My sarcasm detector got maxed out and broke years ago, so I can't tell whether you're serious, but yes:
    "Joe feels guilty about surviving" is an entirely different matter from "Joe was found guilty of committing murder."

    Edit: Fixing broken tag.
    Last edited by arimareiji; 2021-04-10 at 02:06 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Feruk View Post
    I suspect that Dancrilis was being facetious by giving a 'just get over it' answer - there's no realistic answer to danielxcutter's question, because guilt - even if it was just guilt - can be had over something that you had no choice over, or no realistic other choice. Maybe that's my reading, though - tone and facetiousness is tricky to get via internet.
    Another thing possible for V (and not the rest of the party) would be to take a few decades away from adventuring and lock themselves in a cave and work it out. The differences available thanks to an elven lifespan are typically ignored, but here it would come in handy. Perhaps in conversation from one elf to another "just get over it" might seem perfectly reasonable. Granted, that doesn't help with the inability to trance with an upcoming "save the world" boss battle ahead, but beyond V should have the easiest time coping.

    Assuming Belkar can handle being dead, of course. Still expecting to be on the Battlefield, working his way up to literal "sexy shoeless god of war".

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    My sarcasm detector got maxed out and broke years ago, so I can't tell whether you're serious, but yes:
    "Joe feels guilty about surviving" is an entirely different matter from "Joe was found guilty of committing murder."
    Personally I didn't detect any sarcasm. I haven't been reading that closely but I think the point is the former, that V feels guilty for not being able to do more for the Azure City soldiers and is refusing to trance because they don't want to relive those memories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    I got the impression that DQ3 was meant to be like the Lord of the Rings: in universe, the setting literally is the Earth, except that DQ3 is set somewhere around the 1500s (with the addition of the lost continent of Atlantis), while Tolkien's work is framed ancient history prior to the age of man.

    And it's hard to stick the implications being implied here, given that the reference Enix chose for their home country is the fairy tale of a forgettable rural village sacrificing their children as offerings to a monster under the direction of the local priestess (who turns out to be the monster in disguise).
    I guess I never thought it through that much, there was just a moment when the map clicked with me, and, well, a whole lot of the place names make it more obvious, at least in the US version. (Italy/Rome is "Romaly." Portugal is "Portoga." As you mentioned, Japan is "Jipang." And so on and so on, and scooby dooby dooby.)

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Personally I didn't detect any sarcasm. I haven't been reading that closely but I think the point is the former, that V feels guilty for not being able to do more for the Azure City soldiers and is refusing to trance because they don't want to relive those memories.
    1) If it helps to clarify, my post was two-part -- that's easy to lose track of when the forum software strips out quotes*. The part you're quoting wasn't a response to Feruk, it was a response to Dion saying "Guilty and guilty are two totally different words that have the same spelling, like buffalo, buffalo, and buffalo."
    * - wisely so, since otherwise posts would often end up being a few pages long and several nests deep

    2) It's a worthy topic, if someone wants to talk about V's feelings of guilt. Or to assert that because V feels guilty, it proves V must be guilty (of something). But I don't know how I can make it any clearer that I asked what the basis is for people "to judge V guilty of some ill-defined sin" -- not "V feeling guilty about being unable to save people", which is what I keep getting responses about.

    I'm starting to feel like I asked about the color of Old Blind Pete's shirt (orange), and keep getting responses that it's a great fruit full of vitamin C and what do I have against citrus farmers. (^_^)° Or the cook of the Mechane, being told "No, you're a homophone!" (^_~)
    Last edited by arimareiji; 2021-04-10 at 07:36 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    1) If it helps to clarify, my post was two-part -- that's easy to lose track of when the forum software strips out quotes*. The part you're quoting wasn't a response to Feruk, it was a response to Dion saying "Guilty and guilty are two totally different words that have the same spelling, like buffalo, buffalo, and buffalo."
    * - wisely so, since otherwise posts would often end up being a few pages long and several nests deep

    2) It's a worthy topic, if someone wants to talk about V's feelings of guilt. Or to assert that because V feels guilty, it proves V must be guilty (of something). But I don't know how I can make it any clearer that I asked what the basis is for people "to judge V guilty of some ill-defined sin" -- not "V feeling guilty about being unable to save people", which is what I keep getting responses about.

    I'm starting to feel like I asked about the color of Old Blind Pete's shirt (orange), and keep getting responses that it's a great fruit full of vitamin C and what do I have against citrus farmers. (^_^)° Or the cook of the Mechane, being told "No, you're a homophone!" (^_~)
    The thing that confused me was that the discussion was about V's feelings of guilt and their PTSD. Then you suddenly start asking why people think V is guilty - a discussion that I've never seen (I've been less active checking after saying why I felt attacked and being brushed off with "I didn't say that" followed by "That's a harsh reading", but I usually see a good chunk of the main threads), so I naturally assumed that you were talking about the topic at hand that you quoted, with clumsy wording (and your "thanks for clarifying" was easily parsed as agreement, which didn't help my reading).

    So, yes, I did misread once or twice, and I apologize.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    I'm starting to feel like I asked about the color of Old Blind Pete's shirt (orange), and keep getting responses that it's a great fruit full of vitamin C and what do I have against citrus farmers. (^_^)° Or the cook of the Mechane, being told "No, you're a homophone!" (^_~)
    Well, to be honest, the first mention of "guilt" I saw in this thread seemed pretty clearly to imply the feeling of guilt and not the legal sense of the word. I'm not sure where you think the ambiguity comes from or why you think other people find Vaarsuvius guilty of something in a legal sense.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Just reminded me, (on the phone so can't link to relevant pages), Haley had survivors guilt after Roy's death and blamed herself for not doing enough to help.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Sincere sentiment: It would probably be good if I try to figure out some way to clearly communicate "X post got me to thinking about Y related subject, but I don't want to falsely imply that the following response is intended to refute or support X. Or that the poster does. I just think that Y is related."

    Something brief but clear, like the (/sarcasm) tag. Unfortunately, all I can think of is (/segue). (﹒︠₋﹒︡)

    Quote Originally Posted by Feruk View Post
    The thing that confused me was that the discussion was about V's feelings of guilt and their PTSD. Then you suddenly start asking why people think V is guilty - a discussion that I've never seen (I've been less active checking after saying why I felt attacked and being brushed off with "I didn't say that" followed by "That's a harsh reading", but I usually see a good chunk of the main threads), so I naturally assumed that you were talking about the topic at hand that you quoted, with clumsy wording (and your "thanks for clarifying" was easily parsed as agreement, which didn't help my reading).

    So, yes, I did misread once or twice, and I apologize.
    My apologies for giving the wrong impression by saying "Thank you for helping to clarify what I was trying to express. I'm not asking what V should have felt, I'm trying to get the bottom of "What is V 'guilty' of?"."

    It wasn't intended as agreement, it was intended to thank you for helping me realize I needed to clarify. And I thought your following post helped even further a la the Socratic method, which I was also glad for.

    In case my mentioning you in my reply to Ruck also gave the wrong impression, it wasn't to criticize you -- it was to clarify that my reply to your post and my reply to Dion's post were separate matters.
    Spoiler: explanation
    Show
    It makes sense for the forum software to remove what would be nested quotes, but it can have the unfortunate side effect of making two sub-replies look like they're connected. The more I think about it, the more I'm seriously tempted to routinely add HR lines between sub-replies (and definitely will here). Otherwise, when quoted there's nothing to separate them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Well, to be honest, the first mention of "guilt" I saw in this thread seemed pretty clearly to imply the feeling of guilt and not the legal sense of the word. I'm not sure where you think the ambiguity comes from or why you think other people find Vaarsuvius guilty of something in a legal sense.
    Preface, for clarity for bystanders: The following is wrt V's actions at the end of the battle for Azure City.

    I don't remember seeing anyone on the forums* accusing V of breaking the law per se, nor was that what I was trying to ask about. But as I've tried to make clear in ongoing posts (aided by Feruk's questions), I've seen people imply or assert on previous occasions that V bears the objective guilt of some sort of not-clearly-defined wrong**. I was hoping someone would be willing to address "What should V have done instead?", but in retrospect that hope was probably unfounded from its inception.

    Imo V's survivor's guilt is a separate animal from whether people should assign guilt to them. And I think it's harmful to conflate them as if "feeling guilty" proves "we know they're guilty"***. But the only way to resolve whether that's the case is to talk it out.

    * - Added this qualifier, because I recalled Elan all but did so wrt the separate matter of Kubota. I can't be sure someone in the comic didn't wrt this matter.
    ** - I've used multiple synonyms in trying to clearly differentiate between those two forms of "guilty", which was a bad choice on my part. ("Known by others to have committed a 'wrong'" is the closest by far, but didn't immediately come to mind.) From experience in the Find Me A thread, I should know better than to use rough synonyms that can introduce unintended meanings. My English teacher hammered into us that we shouldn't repeatedly use the same word if it can be avoided, and it stuck.
    *** - If anything, I lean toward the opposite. People who don't sometimes feel unjustified guilt scare me a lot more than those who feel it in moderation.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    It took me a while to understand what you were talking about until I re-read this strip. I at first thought the events were happening simultaneously, but after further inspection I realized that it is a memory brought up during V's trance. It probably is, as V said, "the same memory, over and over." That explains a little bit more of why V isn't trancing and I have no idea why I didn't get that before.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    But I don't know how I can make it any clearer that I asked what the basis is for people "to judge V guilty of some ill-defined sin" --
    When people speak of V’s guilt in the sense of “the fact of having committed a specified or implied offense or crime”, they are referring to familicide, not the sacking of Azure City.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-04-11 at 09:32 AM.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    When people speak of V’s guilt in the sense of “the fact of having committed a specified or implied offense or crime”, they are referring to familicide, not the sacking of Azure City.
    I think this whole conversation started with pointing out that V should feel guilty in the most recent comic about how V treated Elan. Specifically that V threatened to murder Elan during an argument after killing Kubota. Then we went on a tangent about how V's PTSD caused them to make that threat, and eventually that tangent wrapped around to using the word guilt again in a different context.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Sincere sentiment: It would probably be good if I try to figure out some way to clearly communicate "X post got me to thinking about Y related subject, but I don't want to falsely imply that the following response is intended to refute or support X. Or that the poster does. I just think that Y is related."
    ....
    I actually stopped myself from adding on a "they only feel guilty, they aren't actually culpable" answer because I did realize after some thought that it didn't answer your question.

    Unless I'm misunderstanding, I think your question isn't "why does that make V culpable" it's "why do some people say that it makes them culpable." The only possible answer I could have (with the opinions that I have) to the first one is "it doesn't," and I think that's where a lot of the people who did reply are coming from.

    In order to get the answer to the second question from the first question, you'd have to ask someone who did believe that V was culpable. And then they'd give the answer that matched their opinions. But you could ask anyone the second question, and they could give the answer provided that they'd previously heard someone give an argument.

    Unfortunately.. I don't remember seeing one. If I had to theorize, I'd guess some people might think "V is intelligent enough to know whether or not they should feel guilty"? Which is not how intelligence works, hence why it's not my argument.

    Personally I've used that action as an example of Neutral behavior a few times. I think there are a few scenes where we're maybe deliberately shown a spectrum of similar behavior with Good and Evil but also Neutral examples. Elan, Tarquin and Julio being another one. That's not so much a moral judgment on my part even, as what I think we're being shown about the way alignments are used in the story. But even so, Neutral behavior is definitionally not Evil.

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