OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

[ziproot]

I suspect it was because V tried to barter for Z's houseruled 3.0 Fly, which might have morphed in memory as a simplified "V doesn't have Fly". I know when you asked about it, I assumed it was the wand because that's exactly what happened to me. At least until dancrilis pointed out they knew Fly already.

That's what I thought

[arimareiji]

and this is why i always check multiple times per day <3

elan definitely has grown as a character. dating haley probably helped!

Indeed. Having something precious to lose does a lot to puncture youthful "lol y u so serious bro", and he took the opportunity. There are lots of good inflection points that can be pointed out for the stages of his growth, but the one that stands out to me is his comedy in 481 seguing into the seriousness of 482.

[dancrilis]

I thought Elan's mockery of wizards/V warranted an apology every bit as much, if not more, and was a bit puzzled that it seemed like V was treated as the only wrongdoer.

Elan did apologise panel 11.

[Good Coyote]

Indeed. Having something precious to lose does a lot to puncture youthful "lol y u so serious bro", and he took the opportunity. There are lots of good inflection points that can be pointed out for the stages of his growth, but the one that stands out to me is his comedy in 481 seguing into the seriousness of 482.

I think this is a good one too.

He doesn't just differentiate himself against Tarquin, the way he defined himself against Nale as the Good twin. He also differentiates himself from Julio, the Neutral option, who is just okay.

Tarquin will actively hurt others to further his drama. Julio won't, but he still puts drama as more important than helping as much as he could. Elan decides even that feels weird.

[mjasghar]

Odds are the thing he noticed was Elan going back to the (annoying to him) Narrative Theory Of Destiny stuff :D.

Also, I do like that the strip does call out Elan's early attitude. His antics were fun and silly for the audience, but there was also this theme of "being silly at the expense of people who understand how serious a situation it is", which is suuuuuuuper aggravating when you're trying to, you know, stop an evil monster and there's this annoying bard making themselves a pest, and then complaining when you voice your frustrations in a less-than-diplomatic way.

The strip started out as a way to make fun of the way d&d is played and how edition changes are incorporated into ongoing games. This sort of fell by the wayside as the plot developed, usually being left to punchline end panels. Examples include talking is a free action or using the regeneration of a hydra to create a food business.
Elan was often the vehicle for this - even in the book where he takes centre stage he is used that way, what with the single splat book that covers a specific prestige class.
I wonder if this strip should be used as evidence he has increased his INT score?

[Ghosty]

It seems many of you are taking it as a given that Serini (and whatever help) will just defeat the Order and take them back to the same place as the Paladins, but I'd bet more either on 1) them overcoming her or 2) Serini's actions themselves giving the trick away and thus endangering the Gate. But either way, something of consequence has to come from this and "things go smoothly for Serini" isn't that high up in the cards, to my mind. Possible, but certainly not a given.

How bad would it look if the Order saw Serini trying to ambush them (through a True Seeing or the like), pivoted, and swatted her like a bug? The Order is expecting to maybe find her her, right? Though she's never responded? Would they recognize her if she was trying to put the Order in the ground, or incapacitate them similarly?

Or is this going to go like the initial Miko fight?

[Ghosty]

Unfortunately, the alternative to "things go smoothly for Serini" is "things don't immediately go FUBAR for the Order," and since when is that a winning bet?

They've got to get competent some time. I thought the fight with Greg* would've shown it---they planned! and everything---but, No. The initial ambush in Girard's Pyramid was pretty nifty too. If Serini doesn't thin the herd with traps, poison, guile and the like...and if the Order sees her coming, she could have a bad time.

Entirely possible the Order blasts her down to where all that's left is the Troll regeneration---especially if she comes out all shooty, and they see it---and how much'll remain of Serini after that, I couldn't tell you.

[ziproot]

If the Order subdues Serini, Serini will probably say something like "I have the Paladins" and try to work something out.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, one possibility is Elan jumping in the way to save Vaarsuvius as a reversal of the scene in Blood Runs in the Family (well, not exactly a reversal, but you know what I mean). Then Vaarsuvius casts Invisibility Purge and Durkon does some healing, then Serini mentions the Paladins and they talk.

[Doug Lampert]

Belkar apologizing unprompted? Ok, now I can start getting aboard the redemption train!

Wait, where are all the Kenny Belkar is about to die predictions?
After all, Redemption=Death.

Oh no! They're reminiscing past adventures! At least one of them is going to die soon! You should have known Elan!

There's also this.

I am terrified! When people talk like that, something horrible must happen soon!

And this.

I just don't understand it, on about 1% of this evidence we used to reliably have dozens of people saying "Belkar dies here doesn't he." And this time we're actually beginning to get kind of close to the climax where it's actually plausible.

The forum has let me down.

So, how does Haley's being a half-celestial play into Serini's ambush?

[Good Coyote]

Entirely possible the Order blasts her down to where all that's left is the Troll regeneration---especially if she comes out all shooty, and they see it---and how much'll remain of Serini after that, I couldn't tell you.

No opinion on whether this is likely but...

It'd be pretty darn cool to see.

So, how does Haley's being a half-celestial play into Serini's ambush?

I'm more interested in whether V's half-camel template raises the required dose for their body size (because it's diluted by all the water in the hump).

[ziproot]

Or, what if Mr. Scruffy notices Serini? That would be fun to watch.

[Ghosty]

If the Order subdues Serini, Serini will probably say something like "I have the Paladins" and try to work something out.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, one possibility is Elan jumping in the way to save Vaarsuvius as a reversal of the scene in Blood Runs in the Family (well, not exactly a reversal, but you know what I mean). Then Vaarsuvius casts Invisibility Purge and Durkon does some healing, then Serini mentions the Paladins and they talk.

I am really, I mean really interested in how Serini parses dealing with the entity that smoked her former crush's entire bloodline. I seriously doubt that happens with a shrug.

[bunsen_h]

Or, what if Mr. Scruffy notices Serini? That would be fun to watch.

People who use invisibility and such rarely remember to nullify their scents.

[wingnutx]

Belkar apologized! wow.

[Ghosty]

Wait, where are all the Kenny Belkar is about to die predictions?
After all, Redemption=Death....

I know I had to have mentioned this here before, but at another place I discuss this strip, someone stated that the Giant is likely to subvert this trope of fantasy prophecy...by following it exactly. No it's, but's, exits. Belkar will die before the New Year, and he will do it towards the very, very end of this entire tale.

Though I can't see how he earns the CG-ish afterlife fantasy with Shojo I'd love to see him get. He's trying to be better now, true; but he hasn't even come close to atoning for all of the people he hurt before Roy and Shojo got ahold of him. (Thats's a lot of kiloNazis.) And he now seems like a better person than Limbo deserves. What final destination for those that wanted to change, but just ran out of Time?

Maybe that's another deconstruction from the Giant?

[ziproot]

It might just be me being Lawful, but I think that Mechanus is a much better place to end up on than Limbo, even though they are both the "neutral" afterlife.

[Jay R]

So, how does Haley's being a half-celestial play into Serini's ambush?

I don't want to give any spoilers, but once you figure out the MitD's species, and Vaarsuvius's gender, it all becomes perfectly clear. That's also why the wooden alpaca had to be filled with potato salad.

[KorvinStarmast]

...Elan is so getting stabbed before this is over, isn't he.

He's been getting stabbed since early in OoTS (Haley had to steal a healing pot from Belkar to overcome his wounds from goblins ninjas) - he's been stabbed plenty since then. (A major one from Nale and another major one from Tarquin). He's still here (with perhaps an assist from plot armor ...) so him getting stabbed will be fine.
It won't be final, however.

Well, V, you still need to apologize for threatening to kill Elan back when you were in your trance-deprived state

I don't see why. Durkon and Elan were running off on side quests while V was still focused on the Order's mission.

... there was also this theme of "being silly at the expense of people who understand how serious a situation it is", which is suuuuuuuper aggravating when you're trying to, you know, stop an evil monster

Particularly in an RP setting. Being the person playing a somewhat serious character and you've got this person that refuses to take things serious can reaaaaaaaally grate on things. Behind every stick-up-their-ass Paladin type, there's an insufferable comic relief character that provides no relief...

True.

I'd like it better in book format, though, because the pacing is already slow on webcomic, and pages like this, though they aren't, /feel/ like filler.

I had a similar reaction. The pacing will 'feel' better when the book is published. My gut reaction was "filler" and "scene change pivot point" conjoined.

elan definitely has grown as a character. dating haley probably helped!

Hasn't hurt.

Though I can't see how he earns the CG-ish afterlife fantasy with Shojo I'd love to see him get.

I have the idea that Belkar will get the afterlife he deserves. That end was foreshadowed by the interview the deva had with Roy. Not betting on anything in the CG realm: body of work, and all that.

[Roselily2006]

I don't see why. Durkon and Elan were running of on side quests while V was still focused on the Order's mission.

I dunno, threatening murder on a fellow party member still seems a bit extreme.

[arimareiji]

Elan did apologise panel 11.

Indeed, but it felt half-hearted... and although it may be just another of Elan's many bad (panel 6) wording (panel 5) choices (panel 6), he phrases it as "I'm sorry you took offense at my wizard costume".

I can believe Elan didn't intend it this way^*, but generally "I'm sorry [about your actions^**, not mine]" can be fairly called a fauxpology or nonpology. Especially when the person minimizes any mention of their own role ("my wizard costume", as opposed to mockery of wizards/V).
_{* - I really do personally prefer to attribute his actions to gaucherie rather than ill intent, despite things like him threatening the goblin teenager in 101 with what he actually did here. Hanlon's Law does my stress levels a lot of good, when I remember it. (^_~)
** - Particularly when "your actions" are "thinking that what I did was offensive".}

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I think this is a good one too.

Spoiler: collapsed for space

Show

He doesn't just differentiate himself against Tarquin, the way he defined himself against Nale as the Good twin. He also differentiates himself from Julio, the Neutral option, who is just okay.

Tarquin will actively hurt others to further his drama. Julio won't, but he still puts drama as more important than helping as much as he could. Elan decides even that feels weird.

Indeed. What stood out to me about the one I linked is that I think it's a good start point for "reflecting on his actions" (and how they affect others, and why others have a right to object to them), not just "saying sorry when people get mad" (without understanding why they had a right to be).

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The strip started out as a way to make fun of the way d&d is played

Spoiler: collapsed for space

Show

and how edition changes are incorporated into ongoing games. This sort of fell by the wayside as the plot developed, usually being left to punchline end panels. Examples include talking is a free action or using the regeneration of a hydra to create a food business.
Elan was often the vehicle for this - even in the book where he takes centre stage he is used that way, what with the single splat book that covers a specific prestige class.
I wonder if this strip should be used as evidence he has increased his INT score?

Really good point, to the extent that I wonder how fair it is to consider extremely-early Elan to be the same character at all.

---

They've got to get competent some time.

Spoiler: collapsed for space

Show

I thought the fight with Greg* would've shown it---they planned! and everything---but, No. The initial ambush in Girard's Pyramid was pretty nifty too. If Serini doesn't thin the herd with traps, poison, guile and the like...and if the Order sees her coming, she could have a bad time.

Entirely possible the Order blasts her down to where all that's left is the Troll regeneration---especially if she comes out all shooty, and they see it---and how much'll remain of Serini after that, I couldn't tell you.

The trouble is, what if they don't have to get more competent this time?

They're currently planning to jump out of a portal for a winner-takes-all ambush, which underpins what appears to be Serini's reasoning: The definition of insanity is trying the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. It's a great idea IF they win. But they keep on losing, and gates keep getting destroyed, and if that happens here the world is unmade.

If she's right and their ill-considered ambush fails, it's game over AND they've practically announced to Team Evil "It's just Serini's shell game (428, panel 9) to think you can pick the right door. Start looking behind the portals."

[InvisibleBison]

Unfortunately, the alternative to "things go smoothly for Serini" is "things don't immediately go FUBAR for the Order," and since when is that a winning bet?

It's quite possible for things to go badly for both parties, especially given that Team Evil could show up at any moment.

[ebarde]

Elan doesn't seem to be necessarily smarter, as much as just more aware of the world around him. He even says here that he was just goofing off at first.

[GreatWyrmGold]

This sort of low-stakes breather episode is underrated.

[TRH]

They've got to get competent some time. I thought the fight with Greg* would've shown it---they planned! and everything---but, No. The initial ambush in Girard's Pyramid was pretty nifty too. If Serini doesn't thin the herd with traps, poison, guile and the like...and if the Order sees her coming, she could have a bad time.

Entirely possible the Order blasts her down to where all that's left is the Troll regeneration---especially if she comes out all shooty, and they see it---and how much'll remain of Serini after that, I couldn't tell you.

They'll never get competent if there's more story possibilities that stem from their failure. Serini just made the case that they're not up to the task of defeating Xykon, and cites as evidence how easily she defeated the two paladins. Her losing to the Order would weaken her argument, albeit not entirely refute it. Still, she's shaping up to be a major antagonist, at least for the first segment of the book - why on Earth would her unique perspective on the Gate struggle be undercut this early? And on a more micro level, why would we have trot out this amnesia potion without it being a major hinderance? No, she's absolutely going to get away with it. I'm betting all the quatloos on this.

Literally the only reservation I have is that we've just done the long-winded monologue to captive scene, so doing it again with the Order would be a bit awkward, and they need to hear the speech more than the paladins, so it can't exactly be skipped. But on the other hand, they'd forget it anyways, so maybe it's not so valuable that they hear it so long as we have.

It's quite possible for things to go badly for both parties, especially given that Team Evil could show up at any moment.

That's just a moderately more convoluted variation on what we'd have gotten if everyone had fought in the canyon after Durkon's negotiations failed. As the characters pointed out at the time, it's premature for that. And if it were another inconclusive skirmish, we just had that battle.

[arimareiji]

I just don't understand it, on about 1% of this evidence we used to reliably have dozens of people saying "Belkar dies here doesn't he." And this time we're actually beginning to get kind of close to the climax where it's actually plausible.

The forum has let me down.

Okay, I'll do my best to provide at least some sort of wild speculation... namely: Speculation is like a desert plant, and evidence like water. With only tiny amounts of evidence, speculation thrives. With levels of evidence that would make most plants happy as a lark, speculation drowns.
If everyone's speculation is obviously wild, there's little investment in being Right No Matter What. But if someone can lay out even a P=0.5 QED, then that means my pet theory might be Wrong and that can't be true. By the time you get to P=0.1, the only response to it may be "I reject your evidence and substitute my own fanon." (⌣_⌣)

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I don't want to give any spoilers, but once you figure out the MitD's species, and Vaarsuvius's gender, it all becomes perfectly clear. That's also why the wooden alpaca had to be filled with potato salad.

Evil. Much better speculation than mine. (^_^)b

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Well, V, you still need to apologize for threatening to kill Elan back when you were in your trance-deprived state, but Elan doesn't you were doing that.

I don't see why. Durkon and Elan were running off on side quests while V was still focused on the Order's mission.

Huuuuhhhhh. :-/
I was planning to reply to the first post with mostly-agreement^*, but now it feels considerably more cloudy. Although to be fair... V's obsession with contacting Haley and Belkar was beginning to feel like a side-quest as well, because "fulfilling the mission" was starting to fall behind the motivations that V: 1) couldn't bear to be thwarted 2) was letting PTSD and false guilt make the decisions.
_{* - Mostly because YMMV on how serious the threat was (it was in response to an equally-unfulfilled^** threat to report V to Hinjo for murder). There have been a number of implied or explicit death threats over the course of the strip that haven't been carried out despite ample opportunities. (But then again V had just killed Kubota for flimsy reasons, even if they were mostly a lampshading of campaign expediencies.)
** - Although in rereading, I realize Elan repeated (but never fulfilled) the threat as part of indirectly telling V "Good riddance", without letting on either of these things to a very-confused Durkon. Which somewhat undercuts my cherished assumption of "When Elan apparently screws up, it's always because he's too dumb to know any better". (﹒︠₋﹒︡)}

[Peelee]

People who use invisibility and such rarely remember to nullify their scents.

Seeing as she's a halfling, she probably did remember.

[arimareiji]

Seeing as she's a halfling, she probably did remember.

I wish I knew/remembered more about the origins of fantasy tropes. I love the notion of halflings as having hamster senses in addition to the hamster personality traits Tolkien gave them^*... but is sensitivity to smells from tradition, or a recent development?

_{* - my own interpretation of both matters}

[Peelee]

I wish I knew/remembered more about the origins of fantasy tropes. I love the notion of halflings as having hamster senses in addition to the hamster personality traits Tolkien gave them^*... but is sensitivity to smells from tradition, or a recent development?

_{* - my own interpretation of both matters}

No clue, I'm just basing it on Belkar's abilities.

[arimareiji]

No clue, I'm just basing it on Belkar's abilities.

I got curious enough to start googling, and found several references that seem to indicate others have described halflings in general as having a keen sense of smell.

But because Google is Google, I'm having to sift through results pointing me to candles, perfume, and whatnot that I can buy that someone thinks smells like halflings. I'm sorta surprised I haven't tripped across anyone selling halfling-scented pipeweed yet. XD

Edit: I finally got my wish, though not in the form I expected... apparently some people don't think pipeweed is tobacco, which I'll take as an omen to give up for the night. (But first I found links to buy mincemeat pies, potpourri, and all sorts of things to make your hobbit-hole smell more pleasant. And every now and again, something about Smaug having a great sense of smell, people wondering what elves smell like, etc.)

[Patterned_Pike]

It has occurred to me that Elan still doesn't know Roy basically abandoned him to the bandits before having a change of heart. I wonder if this conversation (assuming there's more than one page of this dialogue before Serini attacks) will lead to that coming out.