New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 6 of 18 FirstFirst 12345678910111213141516 ... LastLast
Results 151 to 180 of 524
  1. - Top - End - #151
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    arimareiji's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraithfighter View Post
    I figure that Lawful Neutral heaven would be like designing and playing incredibly complex but functional games.

    Like, you know those board games that take a few hours to set up, and each turn has dozens of interactions? Like that, but more so. And also with elements of Lawful Calvinball, where participants can come up with new rules that might be interesting to work with, agreed to by everyone.

    Because, after all, everyone's Lawful Neutral, they're not playing for the good or bad guys to win, or thinking about cheating the other players for their own gain, mastering and coming up with more and better rules is the biggest fun of it all. Better to lose to a perfectly played gambit than to win through a cheat to the pure Lawful Neutral sort.

    ...

    That honestly sounds really fun.
    Well-said. Thinking about it more as a result of your post, I bet that would be one of the more popular destinations -- i.e. in the same way that not all LG's get off on the same things and thus you have the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right, the Tavern of Infinite One-Night Stands, etc.

  2. - Top - End - #152
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Just a brief aside: further up thread people were talking about Elan not really apologising when he said 'I'm sorry you got upset at my costume'. Would the correct phrasing be 'I'm sorry my costume offended you'? For once I'm not being facetious, I just struggle with phrasing sometimes.

  3. - Top - End - #153
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Just a brief aside: further up thread people were talking about Elan not really apologizing when he said 'I'm sorry you got upset at my costume'. Would the correct phrasing be 'I'm sorry my costume offended you'? For once I'm not being facetious, I just struggle with phrasing sometimes.
    Kind of, though honestly the whole thing is ridiculous.

    At the core, you should be apologizing for what you did, not for it's effects. What Elan did was wear the costume, and thus what he should be apologizing for, if wearing the costume was offensive, is the act of wearing that costume, and not for the offense it generated. "I'm sorry I wore that costume" would be more appropriate, as both sentences you wrote basically mean the same thing, though subtle differences (shifting the focus from the feeling offended to the costume is a step in the "right" direction).

    But then it just makes it pretty obvious that Elan has nothing to apologize about, and V was just being a ridiculous snowflake. If Elan wants to become a wizard, good for him. It's none of V's business to be offended about it. Elan was just flattering through mimicry. He neither meant offense, nor did offense, regardless of how V felt about it.

    So in this case, it's kind of appropriate that he said "I'm sorry you got upset at my costume", since the costume was not inherently offensive or wrong in any way, and he's just sorry he made V upset. Which is a legitimate sentiment. Sometimes you can feel bad about making others feel bad even when you know what you did wasn't wrong in itself.
    Attention LotR fans
    Spoiler: LotR
    Show
    The scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.

  4. - Top - End - #154
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ziproot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    In my room

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Kind of, though honestly the whole thing is ridiculous.

    At the core, you should be apologizing for what you did, not for it's effects. What Elan did was wear the costume, and thus what he should be apologizing for, if wearing the costume was offensive, is the act of wearing that costume, and not for the offense it generated. "I'm sorry I wore that costume" would be more appropriate, as both sentences you wrote basically mean the same thing, though subtle differences (shifting the focus from the feeling offended to the costume is a step in the "right" direction).

    But then it just makes it pretty obvious that Elan has nothing to apologize about, and V was just being a ridiculous snowflake. If Elan wants to become a wizard, good for him. It's none of V's business to be offended about it. Elan was just flattering through mimicry. He neither meant offense, nor did offense, regardless of how V felt about it.

    So in this case, it's kind of appropriate that he said "I'm sorry you got upset at my costume", since the costume was not inherently offensive or wrong in any way, and he's just sorry he made V upset. Which is a legitimate sentiment. Sometimes you can feel bad about making others feel bad even when you know what you did wasn't wrong in itself.
    I think Vaarsuvius was more mad at this, though.
    EDIT: And by the way, according to the Class and Level Geekery thread, Elan has too low of an intelligence to cast Wizard spells. Despite what he was saying, he would not actually be able to cast any spells. Vaarsuvius was probably just trying to help Elan, but they have an abysmal Charisma score so they phrased it terribly and just made things worse.
    Last edited by ziproot; 2021-03-28 at 09:33 AM.
    My extended signature

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Dictionary definitions never win debates, unless the topic up for debate is "what does the dictionary say about this"

  5. - Top - End - #155
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    bunsen_h's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Just a brief aside: further up thread people were talking about Elan not really apologising when he said 'I'm sorry you got upset at my costume'. Would the correct phrasing be 'I'm sorry my costume offended you'? For once I'm not being facetious, I just struggle with phrasing sometimes.
    That's still only so-so, as it's putting the blame on the costume. Better would be "I'm sorry I offended you by wearing that costume". One might add an "I didn't realize it would do that"; that's about the limit as far as excuses/explanations go.

  6. - Top - End - #156
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraithfighter View Post
    I figure that Lawful Neutral heaven would--
    I'm just gonna stop you right there. It's not supposed to be "heaven". The Good-aligned afterlives, not the Neutrals, are the heavenly ones.


    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Just a brief aside: further up thread people were talking about Elan not really apologising when he said 'I'm sorry you got upset at my costume'. Would the correct phrasing be 'I'm sorry my costume offended you'? For once I'm not being facetious, I just struggle with phrasing sometimes.
    When a person does something offensive, they should be apologizing for doing something offensive. Apologizing for what they did-- in this case, inadvertently trivializing and making a mockery of the years of study that goes into being/becoming a Wizard.
    (This signature intentionally left blank)

  7. - Top - End - #157
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    That's still only so-so, as it's putting the blame on the costume. Better would be "I'm sorry I offended you by wearing that costume". One might add an "I didn't realize it would do that"; that's about the limit as far as excuses/explanations go.
    But keep in mind there’s a HUGE difference between personal apologies, like the one Elan gave to V, and public apology announcements.

    Personal apologies, in real life, take the form of conversations. They’re often, in real life, awkward and clumsy, full of embarrassment and bad phrasing and stumbles. Real personal apologies are hard, and give both sides a chance to have a difficult dialogue and work toward healing a relationship.

    “I’m sorry you were offended” isn’t a great opening for a personal apology, and Elan should have done better. But anyone who rejects a personal apology for bad wording is frankly not worth the effort of apologizing to.

    Public apology announcements are entirely different. Public apology announcements are carefully scripted theater done by public persons to change a public image, not to repair a personal relationship. You don’t have any kind of dialogue with the people you’re “apologizing” to, because you don’t have any relationship with them. If someone isn’t willing to follow the standard public apology announcement script, and instead says “I’m sorry you were offended” it’s generally because the offensive behavior they’re refusing to apologize for is the public image they want..

    But... yeah. Two totally and 100% different things, and it’s a shame that we call them both “apologies” in English.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-03-28 at 01:15 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #158
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    I think Vaarsuvius was more mad at this, though.
    EDIT: And by the way, according to the Class and Level Geekery thread, Elan has too low of an intelligence to cast Wizard spells. Despite what he was saying, he would not actually be able to cast any spells. Vaarsuvius was probably just trying to help Elan, but they have an abysmal Charisma score so they phrased it terribly and just made things worse.
    No, I think it's pretty clear by precisely these that V held Elan in contempt, and hated the idea that someone as dumb as Elan could pick up the first wizard level so easily when V had to spend decades on training and studying for. It's contempt, it's jealousy, it's arrogance.

    And it's certainly nothing wrong on Elan's part, and in no way of his fault. V was mad because V had a character flaw that Elan just happened to innocently expose.

    Elan did not "mock" wizardry, be it as a class or its costume. He legitimately wanted to become a wizard, because of how cool V was in his eyes.
    Last edited by Goblin_Priest; 2021-03-28 at 01:57 PM.
    Attention LotR fans
    Spoiler: LotR
    Show
    The scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.

  9. - Top - End - #159
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    That's still only so-so, as it's putting the blame on the costume. Better would be "I'm sorry I offended you by wearing that costume". One might add an "I didn't realize it would do that"; that's about the limit as far as excuses/explanations go.
    I was thinking of similar phrasing. Basically as someone with autism I can be clumsy with wording, especially in the context of offending/upsetting people inadvertently. Thanks for the advice and I hope to never have to use it.
    Last edited by Riftwolf; 2021-03-28 at 03:20 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #160
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    I know I had to have mentioned this here before, but at another place I discuss this strip, someone stated that the Giant is likely to subvert this trope of fantasy prophecy...by following it exactly. No it's, but's, exits. Belkar will die before the New Year, and he will do it towards the very, very end of this entire tale.

    Though I can't see how he earns the CG-ish afterlife fantasy with Shojo I'd love to see him get. He's trying to be better now, true; but he hasn't even come close to atoning for all of the people he hurt before Roy and Shojo got ahold of him. (Thats's a lot of kiloNazis.) And he now seems like a better person than Limbo deserves. What final destination for those that wanted to change, but just ran out of Time?

    Maybe that's another deconstruction from the Giant?
    If he becomes a CE [hairy]footsoldier in the Blood War, he will have a chance to rise to "Sexy Shoeless God of War". Judging from the kilonazis, I doubt he'd even wind up in Pandemonium (but for all I know, they also supply Blood War fodder). He might be better off as a Yugoloth mercenary, but he's never shown any reason to change his chaotic stance, just his evil one.

    I'm just worried that the rift will get him.

  11. - Top - End - #161
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Mar 2021

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    I think the issue with the wizard jokes was exactly what V and Elan discussed.

    Elan knows that "frabjulitulity" doesn't mean anything. He doesn't intend it to. He was intentionally spoofing wizards, it's just that he personally would take bard jokes as a legitimate and welcome way to interact with the class. He's a bard. He knows that putting on a wizard hat doesn't actually make you a wizard (by direct empirical evidence in the strip even). It's just that... he's a bard, he believes that spoofing something is a way to show your respect.

    But it's not just about V feeling superior and not wanting Elan to get his lowint/highcha cooties all over their class. They spent their life in a parody world, but it was still their life, their valuable time, that they took seriously. They sacrificed everything else they could have focused on in order to become a wizard. Elan straight up told them that they shouldn't have bothered.

    His jokes did reveal V's character flaw of superiority, but only because what V heard was "your priorities are dumb and you wasted your life" (to which V's response was basically "no YOU'RE dumb, you could never achieve what I accomplished with my life")

    But it's not like Elan's jokes were actually harmful to anything but V's ego. Wizards aren't at a social disadvantage because of stereotypes that they use fancy words or anything.

    I do think a better wording would be "I'm sorry I joked about that. I didn't realize it was a sore spot and I won't do it again." Or a lot of other things that people have suggested would work. But it really was an accident. The problem isn't inherently Elan's jokes, it's that he kept going after V didn't find it funny. (Which Elan being Elan may have missed the signals about, and V should have been able to more clearly tell him to stop without immediately going to "you're an addle-brained fool too stupid to dress yourself," so yes it's good that they apologized too.)

    If Elan meets a wizard who loves being spoofed, it would be fine for him to spoof them and share a laugh together. The problem is doing it to V.
    Last edited by Good Coyote; 2021-03-28 at 03:38 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #162
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2018

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Then the Giant could reboot the series and keep working on it for 17 more years.
    I really hate those tv serials where the initial writer comes back after years for the final shows and resets the characters undoing all the development
    Yes Drop the Dead Donkey I’m looking at you.
    'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"

  13. - Top - End - #163
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Hey, I appreciate the love fest that's going on with the characters but is nobody else's mind blown by the fact ELAN WAS NEVER AS DUMB AS HE APPEARED?!?!? He was faking his stupidity from day one!!!

  14. - Top - End - #164
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    arimareiji's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Coyote View Post
    I do think a better wording would be "I'm sorry I joked about that. I didn't realize it was a sore spot and I won't do it again." Or a lot of other things that people have suggested would work. But it really was an accident. The problem isn't inherently Elan's jokes, it's that he kept going after V didn't find it funny. [emphasis added] (Which Elan being Elan may have missed the signals about, and V should have been able to more clearly tell him to stop without immediately going to "you're an addle-brained fool too stupid to dress yourself," so yes it's good that they apologized too.)

    If Elan meets a wizard who loves being spoofed, it would be fine for him to spoof them and share a laugh together. The problem is doing it to V.
    Indeed... but it's another reason I think "I'm sorry you took offense at my wizard costume" is a nonpology*. Aside from the big red neon sign of "I'm sorry you took offense", another hallmark of nonpologies is that they reframe the apologist's own role as negligible (if they mention it at all).
    * - Which is a separate matter from whether Elan worded it that way by accident, whether V understood there was sincere intent behind it, and/or V was just happy to drop the subject** once V expressed remorse over their own actions***.
    ** - Imo, 1230 provides significant evidence for the latter.
    *** - The truest apology isn't to suggest "I'm sorry but you should be too". It's to say "My actions were regrettable, and I'm sorry for them" without prompting the apologee to express a true apology of their own.


    The issue was never the costume. The issue was Elan poking fun at wizards/V at length, while getting no feedback that it was understood or welcome. All V expressed in response was first frustration in 126 (panels 10 and 11), then anger in 127 (panel 3) -- which Elan interrupted and then talked over, giving V no chance to articulate why he should stop.

    If you poke fun at someone, thinking they'll understand it's all in good fun... and not only get no laughter or teasing back, but get stony silence or even clear anger in response, you STOP. You don't bull ahead, continuing until their anger exceeds their ability to "grin and bear it", then make it out to be their fault alone for being too sensitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by warnabrother718 View Post
    Hey, I appreciate the love fest that's going on with the characters but is nobody else's mind blown by the fact ELAN WAS NEVER AS DUMB AS HE APPEARED?!?!? He was faking his stupidity from day one!!!
    I'm trying very hard not to think about it, myself. If I accept Elan's actions in 101 (third row of panels) as being cunning rather than dumb luck, then I start thinking about how he carries out that exact threat on V in 127. And if I do that, and factor in the sentiments I expressed above... I might think of him as a gaslighter rather than "dumb but means well". And I don't especially want to.

    So, yeah. "That Dumb-Is-Always-Cute Elan sure does accidentally do a lot of things that benefit him and/or the party, doesn't he?" is my story, and I'm sticking to it. (^_~)

    Edit: Minor refactors. I really need to either make myself wait a few minutes after "finishing" before I post, or never look back at posts to see poor wording that will bug me. (^_^)°
    Last edited by arimareiji; 2021-03-28 at 06:01 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #165
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Maybe the real adventure was the friends we made along the way.

  16. - Top - End - #166
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wumpus View Post
    If he becomes a CE [hairy]footsoldier in the Blood War, he will have a chance to rise to "Sexy Shoeless God of War". Judging from the kilonazis, I doubt he'd even wind up in Pandemonium (but for all I know, they also supply Blood War fodder). He might be better off as a Yugoloth mercenary, but he's never shown any reason to change his chaotic stance, just his evil one.

    I'm just worried that the rift will get him.
    Which would be fine, if he were still the guy who went drinking with Buggy Lou, but he's not. He's actually trying to get better and change who he was. (It's just a whole lot of ground to get past, considering who he was----and a lot of that is covering the graves of his victims.)

    Frankly---and he'd be bored silly if they let him in---he deserves to be in Celestia more than Roy's Dad. (Whose name I hilariously can't remember right now, but i can remember him winning some awards for Best Illusion. Darned if I'll go look it up, though.)

    It's an interesting question: in a universe where your deeds dictate where you go when you die, how much should you be judged by what you've done, versus by how much you're currently doing?

  17. - Top - End - #167
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Mar 2021

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    cut for length

    All good points.

    [tinfoil hat on]
    He also still considers the incident as part of a "you guys used to be pretty mean to me" pattern, even though V did deliver a thorough and well crafted apology at the time, and completely put away their offense at Elan's teasing. V's right, they should not be included in such a narrative.

    It seems like Elan didn't put his offense at V's insults down in turn. Which also makes it seem like he remembered the other things because they are things he felt hurt about. Which is fine. Except he framed it as things that he did not realize were connected by other people being mean to him until after he brought them up. That would be passive aggressive at best.
    [tinfoil hat off]

    Of course obviously Elan could remember things that mildly sting more easily, but still just think of them as "we all had fun, and a few times it was at my expense" until he said them out loud. Adorable man.



    (N.B. To be clear, I agree and don't want to actually apply an Evil Elan reading to the comic. But since in most cases we can't ever actually see inside someone's head, I think being able to construct different interpretations and see the evidence for them without thinking they must be true is a good skill and fun to exercise.

    It works the other way too, sometimes you're convinced that every move someone makes means they're malicious and want to offend you, and it's good to be able to think about whether or not it'd be possible that you're reading into it too much.)

  18. - Top - End - #168
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Coyote View Post
    They spent their life in a parody world, but it was still their life, their valuable time, that they took seriously. They sacrificed everything else they could have focused on in order to become a wizard. Elan straight up told them that they shouldn't have bothered.

    His jokes did reveal V's character flaw of superiority, but only because what V heard was "your priorities are dumb and you wasted your life"...
    It does tie in with the initial and continuing themes of spoofing the silliness of the 3.5 rules, and a bit of D&D itself. The strips surrounding Elanificus go into how silly in practice the multi class rules could be in D&D. How Elan conceivably could be looking over V's shoulder and treating magic as a hobby, while it took V decades of study to pick up hir first level. And Elan's right; they shouldn't have bothered. V's ultimate goal of great arcane power wasn't going to give them what they wanted anyway, and in any event could have been picked up far easier than utterly neglecting their family.

    The satirizing continues. First Miron, with his 'OK, let's kill some doods,' and now with Xykon---who looks perfectly happy to keep dungeon crawling through an essentially infinite space until the end of Time---it really looks like the Giant has been trying to put that kind of player in a bad light.

    Especially if you start thinking of the opponents as creatures with their own dreams, with agency towards enacting those dreams. Not as little chunks of running XP.

    Something's going to have to give in this version of Stickworld, and maybe how we play these games as a whole.

  19. - Top - End - #169
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    arimareiji's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Which would be fine, if he were still the guy who went drinking with Buggy Lou, but he's not. He's actually trying to get better and change who he was. (It's just a whole lot of ground to get past, considering who he was----and a lot of that is covering the graves of his victims.)

    Frankly---and he'd be bored silly if they let him in---he deserves to be in Celestia more than Roy's Dad. (Whose name I hilariously can't remember right now, but i can remember him winning some awards for Best Illusion. Darned if I'll go look it up, though.)

    It's an interesting question: in a universe where your deeds dictate where you go when you die, how much should you be judged by what you've done, versus by how much you're currently doing?
    Eugene, and I understand the sentiment. (^_~)

    Imo, the best answer to that question is "What is the universe's decisionmakers' goal?"
    ~ If it's "To reward the sum total of good deeds in the mortal plane" (like an employer with an employee in another country), then the criteria should be "What have you done over your entire lifetime?"
    ~ If it's "To select the best people to be around for eternity" (like an SO deciding whether you can stay with them or have to go somewhere else), then the criteria should be "Who have you become?"

    Considering that a key element is "Who do you want living in your plane?", I'd vote for the latter... but luckily for everyone I'm not one of the universe's decisionmakers.

    One thing that complicates the issue is whether our souls remain capable of change in the afterlife, or whether they're freeze-framed in their last "living" state. At least here in the mortal plane, past deeds are one of our best gauges of what someone will do in the future. I'd like to think the devas of the universe would be able to understand the true state of someone's soul (or at least intent) better than "by what they say about it"... if that's the case, words<deeds<intent for gauging a person.

  20. - Top - End - #170
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Mar 2021

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    It does tie in with the initial and continuing themes of spoofing the silliness of the 3.5 rules, and a bit of D&D itself. The strips surrounding Elanificus go into how silly in practice the multi class rules could be in D&D. How Elan conceivably could be looking over V's shoulder and treating magic as a hobby, while it took V decades of study to pick up hir first level. And Elan's right; they shouldn't have bothered. V's ultimate goal of great arcane power wasn't going to give them what they wanted anyway, and in any event could have been picked up far easier than utterly neglecting their family.

    The satirizing continues. First Miron, with his 'OK, let's kill some doods,' and now with Xykon---who looks perfectly happy to keep dungeon crawling through an essentially infinite space until the end of Time---it really looks like the Giant has been trying to put that kind of player in a bad light.

    Especially if you start thinking of the opponents as creatures with their own dreams, with agency towards enacting those dreams. Not as little chunks of running XP.

    Something's going to have to give in this version of Stickworld, and maybe how we play these games as a whole.
    Yeah, exactly.

    The real reason V would have devoted their life to being a wizard in such a way (if they were an actual PC) is because that's the kind of person that their player wanted to roleplay. It'd be bad table manners to keep pointing out that mechanically, a character needed to do no such thing, if the player was obviously not reacting well to such a joke. "Hey I know you characterized your wizard as very smart and devoted, but it's actually kinda dumb to spend your whole life doing something that my character could do right now. I am going to actually do that, in order to establish in our own personal table world that your character took decades to do what my dumbass is going to do in the time since the party formed."

    I guess you could put that down on a character level as "V became a studious wizard and sacrificed a lot because V wanted to be the kind of person who would be focused and make sacrifices in the service of knowledge." Which is bonkers in our world, to make things that hard for yourself just to be the kind of person who does difficult things. But things work differently in ootsworld. The mechanical rules apply. We could also apply the rp conventions of "this is what you do in order to play this kind of person," and then Elan is making fun of V for the kind of person that they want to be, which it's really understandable to be sensitive about.

    Elan is speaking the truth about the game though. Roleplay and mechanics don't line up. And since it's an early strip designed to make that point, I'm inclined to cut him a break. He's doing his bard job of satirizing the world and V got caught in the crossfire.

  21. - Top - End - #171
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    arimareiji's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Coyote View Post
    (N.B. To be clear, I agree and don't want to actually apply an Evil Elan reading to the comic. But since in most cases we can't ever actually see inside someone's head, I think being able to construct different interpretations and see the evidence for them without thinking they must be true is a good skill and fun to exercise.

    It works the other way too, sometimes you're convinced that every move someone makes means they're malicious and want to offend you, and it's good to be able to think about whether or not it'd be possible that you're reading into it too much.)
    Hanlon's Razor does me a world of good, when I remember it. (^_~)

    Too often, "Evil" and "Good" become synonymous in our heads with "Doing things I don't like" and "Doing things I like. (Louis Rossmann has a good take on some of the reasons I believe this to be true.)

    And in the end, it's an extremely rare bird (likely with several crossed wires) who genuinely sets about with "Evil" intent. We're extraordinarily good at crafting narratives in which we're the "Good" person no matter what others might think. "They hurt my feelings by not inviting me, and they're probably disturbing the neighbors, so I'll call the cops." "Sure I took X and refused to pay, but they don't deserve that much anyway." "If she hadn't been such a b****, I wouldn't have [gone far out of my way to do her severe harm]." And so on.

    To me, that cuts both ways wrt Hanlon's Razor... stupidity/ignorance/etc really are far more likely than overt malice. But the reason it's hard to tell, is that too often the results of rationalization are identical to the results of overt malice.

  22. - Top - End - #172
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Meridianville AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by warnabrother718 View Post
    Hey, I appreciate the love fest that's going on with the characters but is nobody else's mind blown by the fact ELAN WAS NEVER AS DUMB AS HE APPEARED?!?!? He was faking his stupidity from day one!!!
    Eh, he can be an idiot and still deliberately underplay his intelligence and how much he understands.

    Or just no bother to pay attention.

  23. - Top - End - #173
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Jun 2005

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Thinking about it more as a result of your post, I bet that would be one of the more popular destinations -- i.e. in the same way that not all LG's get off on the same things and thus you have the Debate Hall Where You're Always Right, the Tavern of Infinite One-Night Stands, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anitar View Post
    I'm just gonna stop you right there. It's not supposed to be "heaven". The Good-aligned afterlives, not the Neutrals, are the heavenly ones.
    I'm just gonna stop you right there. The purpose of all of that stuff on the first layer of the mountain is not to provide a fun-filled retirement from a life of altruism. The point is to give petitioners the chance to get sick of indulging all of their petty desires in order to free them from distractions from enlightenment. Which is good, because Good-aligned characters wouldn't want to quit performing acts of kindness and settle down to an eternity of hookers and blow or whatever. If you only helped others in order to get a reward for yourself, you were never Good-aligned in the first place, y'know?

    Spoiler: Bill Watterson explains
    Show



    And someone who wasn't Good wouldn't want to move past other concerns in order to better love others. Jirix calls his afterlife his "eternal reward" because that's what he wants. The Good Outer Planes aren't the objectively pleasant ones, because objective pleasantness isn't a thing. Do you expect that one being could be happy in another's heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    [Elan] neither meant offense, nor did offense, regardless of how V felt about it.
    What's the difference between offensive things and inoffensive things if not that the former cause feelings that the latter do not?

    I suppose something being called "offensive" generally indicates that it offends whoever is using the word "offensive", but in that context taking issue with anyone else's use of "offensive" is fairly nonsensical, isn't it? Like, "Well, I'm not offended, so you're wrong to feel otherwise". Attempting once again to accurately generalize about usage in practice, I suppose that "wrong" feelings in this context are feelings that are at odds with one's own. But at that point "wrong to feel other than I do" becomes redundant at best. Perplexing.
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

  24. - Top - End - #174
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by warnabrother718 View Post
    ELAN WAS NEVER AS DUMB AS HE APPEARED?!?!? He was faking his stupidity from day one!!!
    Strips number 109 and 118 are evidence against this position.

    (And if you've read The Origin of the PCs, his dumbacity in service of the Paladin was substantial)
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-03-28 at 09:42 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  25. - Top - End - #175
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    arimareiji's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2017

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    But keep in mind there’s a HUGE difference between personal apologies, like the one Elan gave to V, and public apology announcements.
    [...]
    But... yeah. Two totally and 100% different things, and it’s a shame that we call them both “apologies” in English.
    A combination of the increasingly-absurd form of recent public apologies, and the constant evolution of language, seems to be doing its best to remedy that. (^_~) The slang terms "fauxpology" or "nonpology" seem not unlikely to catch on in the same way "gaslight" has as a verb... although that wouldn't be a fair characterization of the public apologies that sincerely express regret for harming others (vs regret for being caught and/or called out).

    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    Spoiler: collapsed for space
    Show
    I'm just gonna stop you right there. The purpose of all of that stuff on the first layer of the mountain is not to provide a fun-filled retirement from a life of altruism. [emphasis added] The point is to give petitioners the chance to get sick of indulging all of their petty desires in order to free them from distractions from enlightenment. Which is good, because Good-aligned characters wouldn't want to quit performing acts of kindness and settle down to an eternity of hookers and blow or whatever. If you only helped others in order to get a reward for yourself, you were never Good-aligned in the first place, y'know?

    Spoiler: Bill Watterson explains
    Show



    And someone who wasn't Good wouldn't want to move past other concerns in order to better love others. Jirix calls his afterlife his "eternal reward" because that's what he wants. The Good Outer Planes aren't the objectively pleasant ones, because objective pleasantness isn't a thing. Do you expect that one being could be happy in another's heaven?
    Indeed. I was trying to imply, but didn't express clearly at all, that the hypothetical destinations aren't the true essence of LN "heaven" as it were -- just popular destinations within it, according to individuals' preferences.

    What's the difference between offensive things and inoffensive things if not that the former cause feelings that the latter do not?
    Spoiler: collapsed for space
    Show


    I suppose something being called "offensive" generally indicates that it offends whoever is using the word "offensive", but in that context taking issue with anyone else's use of "offensive" is fairly nonsensical, isn't it? Like, "Well, I'm not offended, so you're wrong to feel otherwise". Attempting once again to accurately generalize about usage in practice, I suppose that "wrong" feelings in this context are feelings that are at odds with one's own. But at that point "wrong to feel other than I do" becomes redundant at best. Perplexing.
    Indeed. If I call someone an antiquated slur to try to hurt their feelings, but they're not offended because they're too young to understand, I still intended to cause offense. Or if I use a term that (unknown to me) is offensive to a social group I'm not part of, I didn't intend to cause offense even if one of that group hears and is offended.

  26. - Top - End - #176
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2021

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    I feel like Elan was probably more just playing up things for laughs rather than being a cunning sociopath or complete moron the entire time. In regards to strips 101 and 127, it's possible to acknowledge the social consequences of making another person upset in high school while still being being legitimately upset if you feel like someone you respect/admire insults you. Especially given that so much of Elans charm and charisma is how sincere and open he is. He's really never been stupid, just emotional/impulsive/empathetic, and has consistently been one of the most emotionally mature characters since almost the very beginning.

  27. - Top - End - #177
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Jun 2005

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    With regard to Elan's intelligence or lack thereof, I'm reminded of someone's assessment that Torg from Sluggy Freelance is "only stupid when he doesn't bother to think... which is most of the time".

    In Elan's case, though, that seems a bit overly generous. For instance: Elan only considered multiclassing to Wizard, and earlier to Cleric, because he didn't get that specific roles aren't inherently tied to classes. He even goes on to make better use of illusion magic under Vaarsuvuis's tutelage, and later to learn healing spells. So not only was Elan considering bad ideas that wouldn't have worked, they were needlessly complicated anyway. (Well, they are brothers...)
    Last edited by Devils_Advocate; 2021-03-28 at 10:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

  28. - Top - End - #178
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Mar 2021

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Thinking about it, this comic does suggest to me that Elan knows a bit more than he lets on, at least some of the time. (Edit: Actually, it pretty much proves it. He wouldn't "get" the joke at his expense if he genuinely didn't understand what non-sentient means.)

    I also think he actually really lacked emotional intelligence early on.

    Continuing to make jokes at someone else's expense could be a failure to understand which actions are upsetting the other person, or that your actions are upsetting them at all, or the difference between light ribbing and pushing the issue way past the line. All of that is a lack of emotional intelligence. If he was emotionally intelligent but just not smart, he would have known to stop even if he didn't understand why V wasn't happy. He could have stopped and asked why.

    Also, bursting into sobs and stammering then running away because someone snapped at you doesn't indicate skills at managing your own emotions.

    It's like he says. "I did stuff based on whether it was cool or funny in the moment, not whether it helped anyone." Or earlier, "I've always done whatever it took to make things as dramatic as possible too... but they're not worth hurting people over." He's talking explicitly about Tarquin who hurts people for stories, but he says it in reaction to Julio, who just didn't bother to share important information because it was cooler if Haley wasn't helped that way. Julio did not stop to think about the pain that Haley was put in (because of that moment where Nale was convincing Elan that Haley was Evil, which wouldnt have happened with earlier communication for example - yeah that healed her speech, but still).

    That could overlap with emotional intelligence as "Oh, I wasn't choosing to pay attention and sharpen my emotional skills so that I can avoid hurting people."

    With the Mind Blank joke, he's figured it out. V is frustrated, but the butt of the joke is Elan. And he doesn't freak out like he did earlier either. He's become emotionally intelligent enough to regulate his response and find the insult (which he fished for) funny.
    Last edited by Good Coyote; 2021-03-28 at 11:27 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #179
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Coyote View Post
    Thinking about it, this comic does suggest to me that Elan knows a bit more than he lets on, at least some of the time. (Edit: Actually, it pretty much proves it. He wouldn't "get" the joke at his expense if he genuinely didn't understand what non-sentient means.)
    I do want to note, V explained what non-sentient meant when Elan asked. Which itself is a bit of development from giving everyone the dismissive treatment in the past. Seems like communication really is key.

    Where Julio is concerned, I think "it made for a better story" is as much a reference to that bardic sense of metaknowledge as anything else. If something makes for a better story, that's also likely to be the course of action that actually works, while other things might run the risk of making the situation worse. From a meta-narrative standpoint, what if Haley's speech sub-plot gets delayed or dropped entirely, leaving her permanently incomprehensible?

    And from a more practical point of view, what if Haley finding out lead to a premature confrontation that left her on the losing end until Elan showed up with Thog... who would then attack her with a door a few times on top of all the other injuries.

    Oddly enough, this was a risk Julio pointed out ahead of time, despite the dramatic potential of an unforeseen betrayal. But why? Obligatory mentor behavior? A firm belief in good foreshadowing? No, I think there's one factor that draws this all together: The Mechane.

    As we all know, Julio's ship travels at the speed of plot, always arriving just in the nick of time. But that's the kicker: it's always just in time. So, any slowing of the final confrontation will likewise slow the ship's arrival, delaying vital help for any pre-climax perils that might present themselves. Thog, as a participant in that final showdown, won't affect the ship's speed either way, and can be safely addressed.

    Or I could be making all that up as I go.

    Anyway, long story short, Tarquin uses his powers for evil, Julio uses his powers to rescue people, and Elan has learned that there's more to the world than powers. The mark of true character growth.

  30. - Top - End - #180
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    South France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: OOTS #1230 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    One thing that complicates the issue is whether our souls remain capable of change in the afterlife, or whether they're freeze-framed in their last "living" state. At least here in the mortal plane, past deeds are one of our best gauges of what someone will do in the future. I'd like to think the devas of the universe would be able to understand the true state of someone's soul (or at least intent) better than "by what they say about it"... if that's the case, words<deeds<intent for gauging a person.
    usually the answer is that the dead are dead. but even dante's inferno had an exit. i think heaven should also have an exit too, but that is another story. but in roy's afterlife, it seemed that they could at least change, though i would say only within their selected afterlive's setting. because they could settle down at the "tavern of unlimited one night stands" until they became bored and decided to move on. that suggest some kind of change. but mostly, i would say that is a lightening, a shedding off, rather than an evolution. other realms with eternal fighting and feasting, i would say that they participate in this endless cycle until one day there is a distraction that catches their attention and they move on.
    It's "locksmith of LOVE!" not "LO!"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •