Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

[LansXero]

Yep. Although I think fusion is a little overemphasized, I’ve gotten more consistent mileage out of just blizzards of S:5 AP -2 attacks, D:2 at need, ideally rerolling wounds

As a demonstration, in the last 1k game I played, I got all the buffs together to almost totally stymie my opponent’s T1, and then wiped 650 or so points in T2, including slicing through 20x Warriors, 3x Tomb Blades, a Catacomb Command Barge, and a Triarch Stalker. Very little of that was Fusion, because Quantum Shielding, mostly it came from Haywire, Zephyrglaives, mortal wounds and punching.

re: 1k is horribly skewed and will result in outlier outcomes that in no way reflect the actual status of the game or a faction.

More to the point, the smaller board size for 1k points also has an effect both on coverage and ease of access. When everything gets everywhere due to the tiny battlefield, being super mobile is less of a boon.

[Silvaria]

Sure, it’s just what’s easy to play with the units and time I have. So that’s sort of the meta in which I find myself

[Cheesegear]

re: 1k is horribly skewed and will result in outlier outcomes that in no way reflect the actual status of the game or a faction.

Strong disagree. I'll say what I've said before, hopefully more clearly:

1. 1000 Points is the minimum sized game you should play, if you want a competitive fair game. As per GW official rules.
2. Low(er) points (e.g; 1k) games are less flexible, and as such, actually more competitive and/or broken than high(er) points games (e.g; vs. 2k).

The two statements are not mutually exclusive.
However, statement #2, means that because of the lack of points in your army list (read; choices), 1000 Point games - and lower - are very unforgiving when it comes to making mistakes; At list building. At deployment. At Stratagems. Even at random dice rolls the player has no control over, are unforgiving. Hence, why lower points games, are more...Focused. If you - or your army - don't have that focus, games can be very one-sided, and often. In order to play fairly at low points games you - the player - have to be better.

This means that new player turnover is (usually) quite high, because new players are only 'just starting', getting into 500, 750 and 1000 Point games, and 'playing what they want', because that's what makes sense. Similar to [laying a Monk in DND because Goku. Failing to understand that Monk is arguably the worst class in the game, and despite what you want, 'playing like Goku' is actually a waste of your time - and potentially everyone else's - because the game just doesn't work like that, even if you think it should, and/or want it to.

Except failing to understand that during the time that they make the most mistakes (at all stages of play), is the same points limit as when mistakes 'aren't allowed' to be made at all. This is why new players who stumble onto a winning list/faction/unit by accident, tend to stick around, because they don't lose as much against their peers. Whereas someone getting into Orks or Tyranids at the 500 Point level - because they're new - is going to get real frustrated, real fast, because what 'looks cool', isn't. Because they get annihilated at low levels of play, why should they continue into higher levels of play, when they have no guarantee that higher levels of play will make them, better? Wont they just be wasting even more time and/or money by continuing to play a game that they already lose at? What, at all, makes them think that they should continue?

EDIT:
Why is the casual meta dominated by Astartes, Custodes and Sororitas? ...Because most of the players with not-those-armies tend to quit before they even reach 1000 Points.

[Fable Wright]

EDIT:
Why is the casual meta dominated by Astartes, Custodes and Sororitas? ...Because most of the players with not-those-armies tend to quit before they even reach 1000 Points.

So, uh, piggybacking on that.

I've got three armies that I started working on in 8th edition. Never actually played a game with any of them. I've got Knights, 'Nids, and Tau. Because they're cool, and because I figured hey, this is 40k. One of 'Hordes, guns, or big dudes' is probably viable at any given time, right?

Is there anything I can do to make my introductory games less sucktastic than just begging people to play 8th edition sans the second wave of Marine codices? 'Cause right now it looks like I'm guaranteed to be in for a bad time, and that's hurting my desire to assemble, paint, and base these pretty plastic models.

[LansXero]

Never actually played a game with any of them.

Why? If you've had them for this long, and way before Covid struck, then why have you never fielded them? That should provide context to the second part of your question.

[Forum Explorer]

So, uh, piggybacking on that.

I've got three armies that I started working on in 8th edition. Never actually played a game with any of them. I've got Knights, 'Nids, and Tau. Because they're cool, and because I figured hey, this is 40k. One of 'Hordes, guns, or big dudes' is probably viable at any given time, right?

Is there anything I can do to make my introductory games less sucktastic than just begging people to play 8th edition sans the second wave of Marine codices? 'Cause right now it looks like I'm guaranteed to be in for a bad time, and that's hurting my desire to assemble, paint, and base these pretty plastic models.

That depends entirely on your meta. Mind you, Knights have a problem in that the game is set up for Knights to lose, as sucky as that is. They have a secondary aimed against them, and they have trouble holding multiple objectives.

But Tau and Tyranids? That depends on your meta and what you already have. Tyranids actually aren't that bad, just avoid Genestealers for now, as they are overcosted. You can spam Gaunts, and there really isn't a reason to go above 10 in a squad, so if you want to run a carpet, you aren't even hurt by the anti-horde rules. Tyranid Warriors are decently tasty as well. But to do actual damage, you need some monsters, likely Exocrines.

Tau are trickier as they simply cannot perform in melee, and melee is strong right now. But they do have options, it is just a matter of knowing what those options are.

Still don't be surprised if you lose and lose badly. When I was first starting I easily lost a 100 games in a row. Mind you, I was a child and didn't have the luxury of choice when building my army, but still.

[Fable Wright]

Why? If you've had them for this long, and way before Covid struck, then why have you never fielded them? That should provide context to the second part of your question.

1. I started collecting them at the tail end of 2019.
2. I wanted to do this right, and went in to try and base and paint them properly, despite having never done this before. This took time and research, and the first thing I looked at was Tyranids, which take time to assemble all those gants, and magnetize the carnifexes and flyrant.
3. Game stores still don't have open tables, and I'm not vaccinated besides.

But Tau and Tyranids? That depends on your meta and what you already have. Tyranids actually aren't that bad, just avoid Genestealers for now, as they are overcosted. You can spam Gaunts, and there really isn't a reason to go above 10 in a squad, so if you want to run a carpet, you aren't even hurt by the anti-horde rules. Tyranid Warriors are decently tasty as well. But to do actual damage, you need some monsters, likely Exocrines.

Tau are trickier as they simply cannot perform in melee, and melee is strong right now. But they do have options, it is just a matter of knowing what those options are.

Still don't be surprised if you lose and lose badly. When I was first starting I easily lost a 100 games in a row. Mind you, I was a child and didn't have the luxury of choice when building my army, but still.

I have 6 Hive Guard, a Flyrant, a neurothrope and some zoanthropes, a kitbashed Swarmlord, kitbashed venomthropes, and a bunch of termagants, genestealers, a broodlord, and a mawloc. And a couple magnetized carnifexes and some rippers that I want to turn into swarms. Those are probably my best option right now, but I'm not seeing a lot of ways to hold a midfield objective with 10 gants.

For Tau, I have little more than a few of the starter things, so fire warriors/breacher squads, some devilfish that I might be able to kitbash into Longstrike, some magnetized Commanders, and 9 Crisis suits.

[LansXero]

1. I started collecting them at the tail end of 2019.
2. I wanted to do this right, and went in to try and base and paint them properly, despite having never done this before. This took time and research, and the first thing I looked at was Tyranids, which take time to assemble all those gants, and magnetize the carnifexes and flyrant.
3. Game stores still don't have open tables, and I'm not vaccinated besides.

So you wont be playing at all for the foreseeable future. Which means that between now and then the 9E codex for either of those factions could be released and make any advice you'll get now irrelevant.

My honest suggestion is that you give Tabletop Simulator a try. Its not the same as the real game, I know, but it lets you actually play and get a feel for the game while you wait for the plague to end, lets you try units and factions you can buy later if you like the playstyle and gives you more context to make informed choices. Its on steam at a reasonable price and then there are tons of free content in the steam workshop.

Alternatively, if you do plan on playing rather soon, where would it be and what are the most likely factions you'll be meeting there?

[Forum Explorer]

I have 6 Hive Guard, a Flyrant, a neurothrope and some zoanthropes, a kitbashed Swarmlord, kitbashed venomthropes, and a bunch of termagants, genestealers, a broodlord, and a mawloc. And a couple magnetized carnifexes and some rippers that I want to turn into swarms. Those are probably my best option right now, but I'm not seeing a lot of ways to hold a midfield objective with 10 gants.

For Tau, I have little more than a few of the starter things, so fire warriors/breacher squads, some devilfish that I might be able to kitbash into Longstrike, some magnetized Commanders, and 9 Crisis suits.

Yeah, I just got to echo LansXero here, any advice we give you might well be completely useless since it can be all rendered irrelevant by the time you can actually play. Particularly since I just remembered that you haven't played yet, and thus don't know what your meta is like at all.

If you just want advice on what to buy next?

Tyranids; go with some more Termagaunts. As a cheap infantry choice, they'll always be useful in 9th, even if they end up not being particularly amazing. And from what it looks like, what you are lacking in Tyranids is troop choices anyways. Ditto with the Lictor.

Tau: They tend to swing super hard after Codexs. So...Kroot? And honestly, that's just cause I like Kroot. Fire Warriors aren't likely to change much either, but honestly I'd just avoid buying new Tau stuff (unless it's a good sale on used models) until you can actually play again.

[Hootman]

Is there anything I can do to make my introductory games less sucktastic than just begging people to play 8th edition sans the second wave of Marine codices?

To me, the fact that you have a pretty solid collection already is a HUGE boost. You won't find yourself fielding all 361 points you own, getting crushed by a single Carnifex, and wondering why you should buy new things if the old things are terrible (Ah 5th edition Marines...). You have enough, namely in Nids, to play a few games with different build themes--many weak models, monster mash, whatever--that won't be pure, or the meta version of such a list, but may give you a taste of the style just fine.

As for getting in decent teaching games, in my experience, you should ask a store employee. They tend to either know the game, or know who would be someone to tap as a teacher (of course they do, it's good business), and having the store's Nice 40k Player teach you should soften any Bad Feels if you get wrecked your first time(s).

Also, importantly, it's entirely possible that no one plays [army you are nervous about]. Or at least not as their main, or seriously. A lot of people just pick up "the coolest one" by their standards, and as you'll note from your own collection, that often doesn't include Marines. When I first started, I was the only Marine player I knew until I went to a different store 30min away and found like 6 of them. After I transitioned to Orks as my main, I don't recall meeting another Ork user for...gosh, 5 years? Longer? And despite Eldar being touted in 7th as "the better of the best", I'm pretty sure I've NEVER met an Eldar main who had more than 1000 points. Nids, Necrons, and CHAOS are the big ones I always see.

That's just the way things go. Maybe they have it, maybe they don't. Any reasonable person will pull their punches hard in a teaching game anyways, and instead try to help you find your feet. A good teacher will let YOU be the one to say "Alright, I understand how to play. Now give me everything you've got!"

[Cheesegear]

I've got three armies that I started working on in 8th edition. Never actually played a game with any of them. I've got Knights, 'Nids, and Tau. Because they're cool, and because I figured hey, this is 40k. One of 'Hordes, guns, or big dudes' is probably viable at any given time, right?

Of the three, Tyranids are probably the best Faction you have. Your collection seems reasonable enough. I can go into more detail if you want. But not right now.
As for the other thing you said;

Hordes; No. They're not really viable anymore.

Guns; No. Specific guns are good. The rest is Melee. When WarCom said 9th Ed. was going to 'make melee great again', a lot of the community thought that that was impossible. However, with a major re-tooling of the game and certain mechanics (Turn 2 Outflank, being major), as well as a strong push to nerf a lot of ranged attacks...GW actually did it. Of all the things that 9th Ed. hasn't delivered on, Melee, being good, isn't one of those things.
"We're going to make melee great again...By changing the mechanics of the game, removing its obstacles, and nerfing its competitor." ...Well sure. That works.

Big Dudes; Unfortunately, no. Titan Slayers isn't a Secondary Objective that is picked very often. But, when people do, they score 15 VPs on it every time. Titan Slayers is a fantastic Secondary Objective to pick because it gives 15 VPs, every time you take it, for doing what you were going to do, anyway.

Is there anything I can do to make my introductory games less sucktastic...

LansXero made a very good point. If you aren't playing games right now, and not for the forseeable future either, there's a chance that you shouldn't really listen to anyone on the internet who isn't specifically part of your own meta. Anything can change.

'Cause right now it looks like I'm guaranteed to be in for a bad time, and that's hurting my desire to assemble, paint, and base these pretty plastic models.

Yes? No? ...Maybe. 'Guaranteed' is a strong word. You can't decide that until you play games, and interact with the other players and armies in your meta. Which you're not doing, for obvious reasons.

Are your opponents willing and able to buy new models? Maybe not.
Are your opponents even slightly willing to tryhard? Maybe not.
Are your opponents actually thinking about their wallets, and reading product reviews before they buy their models? Maybe not.*
Do your opponents have large collections and are able to tailor against specifically you? Maybe not.

*And even if they don't, that's not a guarantee that they'll even have a bad model/unit/army/Faction.

[Squark]

The Soritas Ancient is revealed, and she's uh... having a moment with the banner.

Seriously, that pose and face say, "I'm crying because I haven't seen my loved one in years*," except, you know, it's a banner.



*Or three hours, if the loved one is a dog.

[Blackhawk748]

The Soritas Ancient is revealed, and she's uh... having a moment with the banner.

Seriously, that pose and face say, "I'm crying because I haven't seen my loved one in years*," except, you know, it's a banner.



*Or three hours, if the loved one is a dog.

Ya that's.... that's not great. Like, the banner looks fine, the rest of the model is even ok. The face is just a hard pass.

[Renegade Paladin]

Ya that's.... that's not great. Like, the banner looks fine, the rest of the model is even ok. The face is just a hard pass.

Yeah, if I played Sisters I would definitely use the helmet head. Of course, that's true pretty much regardless.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah, if I played Sisters I would definitely use the helmet head. Of course, that's true pretty much regardless.

I prefer the helmets by and large. And yes, she'd be getting one because she looks like she has her eyes closed.

[Lord Torath]

OK, and why is it called an "Auto-Tapestry"? It says it took 5 generations (~100 years) to weave. No, that's not quite right, "the lives of five cannonesses" which could be longer or shorter (but knowing 40k lore, probably longer). So 100+ years for a 1.5 m x 3.5 m tapestry? We've built castles in less time than that. So why does it warrant the "auto" prefix? (Also: "wonderfully named"? Seriously?!)

[AdmiralCheez]

I, for one, appreciate that they sculpted a model of that person that got drunk at the party, fell in love with curtains, and is ready to fight anyone who dares dishonor their love.

[Artanis]

OK, and why is it called an "Auto-Tapestry"? It says it took 5 generations (~100 years) to weave. No, that's not quite right, "the lives of five cannonesses" which could be longer or shorter (but knowing 40k lore, probably longer). So 100+ years for a 1.5 m x 3.5 m tapestry? We've built castles in less time than that. So why does it warrant the "auto" prefix? (Also: "wonderfully named"? Seriously?!)

Maybe it used a lostech loom that kept breaking down?

[Grim Portent]

The tapestry certainly doesn't look like something that would take centuries to make, but then they do say it brims with holy power, so maybe they massively overcomplicated the construction when it was first made. It is the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy after all, massively bloated rituals surrounding basic stuff is their thing. If every step of the process included fifteen minutes of prayers and sanctifications then it would believably have taken ages.

The face looks weird, overly smooth and lacking in definition, but that might be partly the fault of the photographer. GW mini photos are requently at very unflattering angles. The helmet head is open faced though, and the face in it is no better in the photo with the helmet on that I've seen, so it might be a kit that needs a spare head from another kit.

[LansXero]

Maybe it doesn't take generations to weave, just to acquire enough battle deeds and triumphs to fill it with embroidery relevant enough to get it consecrated. Or the Auto refers to the fact that it repairs itself and it takes forever because its all nano-stuff

[Forum Explorer]

Maybe it doesn't take generations to weave, just to acquire enough battle deeds and triumphs to fill it with embroidery relevant enough to get it consecrated. Or the Auto refers to the fact that it repairs itself and it takes forever because its all nano-stuff

Maybe it takes centuries because every weave is shaped like the Aquila.

Mind you I dislike the model regardless. The Imagfier already is 'model holding holy relic up on a pole.' This is just a variant of that.

[Wraith]

I'm somewhat apprehensive that SoB are being turned into "Space Marines except in name". Power Armour and Bolters is one thing, but since January they have also been given a Predator variant, a Dreadknight variant, a sort-of-Vanguard/Bladeguard variant, and now what basically seems to be an Ancient.

SoB's need a boost, no doubt about it, but it'd be nice if they could keep some of their own distinct flavour into the bargain.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm somewhat apprehensive that SoB are being turned into "Space Marines except in name". Power Armour and Bolters is one thing, but since January they have also been given a Predator variant, a Dreadknight variant, a sort-of-Vanguard/Bladeguard variant, and now what basically seems to be an Ancient.

SoB's need a boost, no doubt about it, but it'd be nice if they could keep some of their own distinct flavour into the bargain.

"Person carrying flag" isn't exactly uncommon in Imperial armies. Regimental standards have been a thing in Guard for ages, and nobody accuses them of turning into Marines.

[Cheesegear]

I'm somewhat apprehensive that SoB are being turned into "Space Marines except in name".

Always has been.

SoB's need a boost, no doubt about it, but it'd be nice if they could keep some of their own distinct flavour into the bargain.

In my opinion, if you want to make female Space Marines, you do it by inches. So that when they finally arrive, people don't even know that it's been happening all along.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm somewhat apprehensive that SoB are being turned into "Space Marines except in name". Power Armour and Bolters is one thing, but since January they have also been given a Predator variant, a Dreadknight variant, a sort-of-Vanguard/Bladeguard variant, and now what basically seems to be an Ancient.

SoB's need a boost, no doubt about it, but it'd be nice if they could keep some of their own distinct flavour into the bargain.

You missed the Lieutenant. Though I'm not too worried about them being too much like Space Marines in that they are T3, 1 Wound, and have miracle dice, and I don't see those rules changing anytime soon. I'm more worried at how it seems to point to a lack of creativity on GW's part.

[Wraith]

You missed the Lieutenant. Though I'm not too worried about them being too much like Space Marines in that they are T3, 1 Wound, and have miracle dice, and I don't see those rules changing anytime soon. I'm more worried at how it seems to point to a lack of creativity on GW's part.

This is a better way of saying what I was thinking. They'll always be T3 W1 not-quite-Space Marines, which means they're just inferior Space Marines. Not every faction has to be Captain Smashf***** but they need some identity to set them apart, yet so far their new units are just more Space Marines-lite and that's hardly even a euphemism.

The last thing that anyone wants, or that the game needs, is for SoBs to become "the obviously worst Space Marine Chapter" and nothing else.

[Forum Explorer]

This is a better way of saying what I was thinking. They'll always be T3 W1 not-quite-Space Marines, which means they're just inferior Space Marines. Not every faction has to be Captain Smashf***** but they need some identity to set them apart, yet so far their new units are just more Space Marines-lite and that's hardly even a euphemism.

The last thing that anyone wants, or that the game needs, is for SoBs to become "the obviously worst Space Marine Chapter".

Considering Sisters of Battle are considered to be stronger than Space Marines right now, that's clearly not the problem. Miracle Dice are insanely powerful.

[Silvaria]

Considering Sisters of Battle are considered to be stronger than Space Marines right now, that's clearly not the problem. Miracle Dice are insanely powerful.

Agreed. Sisters are better now because they specialize in hitting above their weight class, and being just annoying enough to remove that you can’t take it for granted. In some ways, they’re similar to the new Drukhari, who are also turning up top finishes at the moment (as expected). They look at the Space Marine array of hammers, and use strats, buffs and miracle dice to spike where they need to, and trade your bigger, better unit for their cheaper, kilier one.

They’re sort of a different painting using similar basic paints to Marines but different techniques and a slightly altered canvas.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm somewhat apprehensive that SoB are being turned into "Space Marines except in name". Power Armour and Bolters is one thing, but since January they have also been given a Predator variant, a Dreadknight variant, a sort-of-Vanguard/Bladeguard variant, and now what basically seems to be an Ancient.

SoB's need a boost, no doubt about it, but it'd be nice if they could keep some of their own distinct flavour into the bargain.

I just wanted my Repressors back and for Pen Engines to be decent. I didn't want freaking Predators or Not!Dreadknights.

Like, I see how much bloat the Marines have I want none of that. We've always had a pretty limited Codex, but the choices always had the capacity to be fine. Like, we didn't need a new unit for Bladeguard, just make Celestians not suck. They can totally fill that roll.

[Renegade Paladin]

I just wanted my Repressors back and for Pen Engines to be decent. I didn't want freaking Predators or Not!Dreadknights.

Like, I see how much bloat the Marines have I want none of that. We've always had a pretty limited Codex, but the choices always had the capacity to be fine. Like, we didn't need a new unit for Bladeguard, just make Celestians not suck. They can totally fill that roll.

Yeah, but that doesn't sell new models. Given the choice between making the models you already have good and making new models and making those good instead, we know what GW is going to do every time.