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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Looks like Bel'akor is fiiiinally going on preorder next weekend.

    Thank God, because I've been wanting to buy him since I saw the model.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Depends what you were doing it with. PLEASE charge a heavy flamer Hellhound. (That's how I won a game against an early 8th meta Stormboyz spam Ork list back at the start of the edition.)
    And they charged from within 8 inches? What a bunch of sillies. Situations like that is what Gork and Mork made the Evil Sunz for; bonuses to charging and just ridiculous amounts of high-speed models. Oh, and multi-charging, depending on the targets.

    ...I miss charging an entire gunline with one unit a Biker Nobz all spread out, and having the myriad other Speedfreeks come rushing up into the gaps uncontested...


    Speaking of something completely unrelated, I've been trying to get myself into the mood to work on some of my many unfinished minis, and I've tentatively settled on working on my Marines. I've got a pretty small force of Vanilla Marines, and I could use a push to help me choose which direction I'd like to take them. In 8th edition, I was using them as some kind of non-canon Salamanders Successor, using the few Legion of the Damned models I have as sergeants or hero models. However, I was reminded that /tg/ once made up the Emperor's Nightmare chapter, which I also think is neat. As you might assume, I have an affinity for owls, which is part of their chapter symbol. Also, purple. Based on their lore, while they are described as successors of the Raven Guard, using rules for the Blood Angels is probably more useful. Librarian Dreads, Death Company as the dissociative 'Sleepless Marines', an affinity for Apothecaries, it seems to fit.

    But if I knew what I really wanted to do, I would just do it. I wouldn't be here looking for...I dunno, affirmation? Something. Maybe I should try to create something from whole cloth, and figure out how to use any mechanics afterwards? I tried looking at the army guides for inspiration, but nothing's struck yet.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Hootman View Post
    And they charged from within 8 inches? What a bunch of sillies. Situations like that is what Gork and Mork made the Evil Sunz for; bonuses to charging and just ridiculous amounts of high-speed models. Oh, and multi-charging, depending on the targets.
    Inferno cannons are 16" range. The heavy flamer is just gravy. But I had three of them in the list to fill out the Brigade, and first turn just moved them all up. He was conga-lining his Stormboyz back to buff characters in the rear, and I dropped Kasrkin behind where said characters were the closest units. That was all she wrote.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by AdmiralCheez View Post
    The razorwing jetfighter ended up being just a tourist plane. Never dealt damage, never took damage, and only got shot at a few times, so it mostly flew around and watched the whole game. The dice were not in its favor.
    The Drukhari Fliers aren't that good.

    The ravager's dark lances and disintegrators were the star of the show, dealing a lot of damage and wounds to his dreadnought.
    Sounds about right.

    All in all, not a bad game for the first run with a bunch of new units to me, running with new rules...
    Seems like it was very...Drukhari. Especially against Custodes.
    You do a bit of damage - maybe even a lot of damage - and then you die, and you have to hope that you did enough damage to actually put a dent in your opponent's plans.

    I did like the variety and options available at that point level, but it was definitely a longer game than I preferred
    In order to play the game 'properly', requires more investment. It Just Does.

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    I mean to be fair. Overwatch got made into a stratagem. It's not like Overwatch was excessively good.
    It wasn't that it was good.
    It's that it was necessary for the meta to not be the way it is, currently.

    Again, when we look towards the design goals of 9th Ed., and we see "Make Melee more important", what we see, is nerfing the **** out of Overwatch. It's only one piece of a puzzle. But it all adds up to make something terrible, which is that units that can't Fight back - or withstand the opponent's Charge - are Just Bad, because they damn sure can't Overwatch. And the ultimate puzzle, is that a good, Melee unit, can roll right through an entire enemy unit without ever have taken damage.

    Declare Charge.
    - Target unit can't Overwatch 'cause it's a Stratagem
    Unit Fights and obliterates opposing unit, and it's at relatively full strength, so max attacks and max damage, and best use of Stratagems over the most number of models.

    #FunGame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hootman View Post
    I wouldn't be here looking for...I dunno, affirmation? Something. Maybe I should try to create something from whole cloth, and figure out how to use any mechanics afterwards? I tried looking at the army guides for inspiration, but nothing's struck yet.
    How to play Marines;

    Choose one;
    Aggressors, Assault Terminators, or Centurions (either type). The Chapter you would like to play probably will affect which one you choose. Take one max-sized unit, and then fill out the rest of your Elite (or Heavy) slots with min-sized units.

    Add; Captain (any), Chief Apothecary, Ancient. Remember that Apothecaries and Ancients are Elite slots, so they may compete with slots with the above. However, remember than a Captain allows a Role-free Veteran squad, and a Veteran squad allows one role-free Apothecary and Ancient in the same Detachment. So actually nothing competes with anything, you're fine.

    Optional; Add a Lieutenant. If you're running with Aggressors or Centurions, you might want a Librarian, if you have access to Powers that hand out Invulnerable saves. Which you should do.

    Once you've taken as many Elite choices as you have and/or can afford...Fill the rest of your list with whatever works in your meta.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by AdmiralCheez View Post
    Just finished my first 1250 point game with my Kabal Drukhari list vs. my friend's Custodes. Made it to the end of turn 3 before the shop we were in closed, and we had to call it. I didn't win, but it was a good game. Some highlights:

    - The razorwing jetfighter ended up being just a tourist plane. Never dealt damage, never took damage, and only got shot at a few times, so it mostly flew around and watched the whole game. The dice were not in its favor.
    - The command raider with the Archon on board was immediately locked down in melee and got punched to death, exploded, and injured a lot of enemy forces.
    - The Archon's 2+ invulnerable save shield failed immediately with a roll of 1, command point reroll also rolled a 1. So after his ride got destroyed, he got hit pretty hard and didn't make it.
    - The other raider did some damage to the enemy troops and took an objective before getting punched to death on top of a hill by the giant dreadnought. The Kabalites on board had to make an emergency disembark, of which 3 died after falling off a cliff while jumping out of a burning wreck.
    - A unit of five incubi soloed the warlord and cut it to pieces before he used a stratagem to go down fighting, taking the incubi with him. This sacrifice allowed the reavers to escape the war lord's ire and complete a secondary objective.
    - The ravager's dark lances and disintegrators were the star of the show, dealing a lot of damage and wounds to his dreadnought.
    - A lone sybarite, the sole survivor of a kabalite unit, surrounded on all sides by enemies, bravely stood against them with his blast pistol and power sword.

    All in all, not a bad game for the first run with a bunch of new units to me, running with new rules. First game over 1,000 points too, with secondaries and stratagems being used, so a "proper" game some might say. I did like the variety and options available at that point level, but it was definitely a longer game than I preferred, especially since the store was closing.
    -It happens
    -Always fun when that happens
    -You can't reroll Shadowfield saves. Ever. No matter what. When I run an Archon that's typically what happens to mine too.
    -Incubi are off the wall good. Try them with Drazhar, it's insane.
    -I'm actually surprised. These days I figure the Ravanger just isn't efficient enough.
    -Very nice.

    I'm pretty sure you can do a 2000 point game in 3 Hours. But that does involve some rushing, and more importantly, it involves knowing your rules and army by heart. Can't have a quick game if you need to look stuff up all the time or if you are hemming and hawing about what to do next.

    If you want to get really good at that? Try playing with a chess clock. It can be pretty stressful, but it's also fun in its own way. Needing to make decisions quickly and needing to rush can be quite the experience. Definitely not for everyone, but I can see the appeal of it.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I'm pretty sure you can do a 2000 point game in 3 Hours. But that does involve some rushing, and more importantly, it involves knowing your rules and army by heart.
    [...]
    Try playing with a chess clock. It can be pretty stressful, but it's also fun in its own way. Needing to make decisions quickly and needing to rush can be quite the experience.
    Nobody makes decisions quickly, and nobody rushes. Not ever.
    What people do do, is figure out what they're going to do during their opponent's turn. By the time it's your turn, all's you have to do, really, is move models.

    This is one of the fundamental flaws in the current 40K, that is actually exploited by anyone who knows about said flaw.

    You, don't have anything to do with your opponent's turn. All's you have to do, is roll saves, and maybe answer a question or two about Toughness or number of wounds. And of course play an Overwatch Stratagem exactly once, maybe.
    The rest of the time, you can just check out. Go talk with your friends at another table (if you trust your opponent not to cheat), go to the shops three doors down and order a coffee and come back in ten minutes. Put your thumb up your butt.
    You don't have anything to do with your opponent's turn. It's the biggest complaint about 40K, but it's also it's greatest competitive strength, especially under time crunch.

    Now, you could be staring blankly at a wall, you could be chatting up your friends' missus, you could be flicking through your Codex to find a rule you forgot nope, you know all your rules, so scratch that. You could be doing anything. Including not even being at the table.

    What you should be doing, is taking your turn in your head, and evaluating what you're gonna do. Unfortunately, a lot of people can't actually do that, whilst still focusing on their opponent. Except most people don't actually realise that you don't need to engage your opponent at all during their turn, they, engage you, and only when they ask you. The rest of the time? If your opponent isn't asking you a direct question about your army, or asking you to roll saves...You may as well not be paying attention - because your attention should be on the board, not your opponent.

    The turn-by-turn decisions of the days of Maelstrom are over. This ain't Kill Team with alternating activations and fire dice surprises. You already know all of your Objectives, and you already know how to achieve all of them. And when your opponent's dice roll like fire, you have something like 4 more minutes before it's even your turn. You can see your opponent's turn, as they do it. It's not like you've closed your eyes for 20 minutes, suddenly woken up, and OMG new board state, must make decisions, but first I must figure out what's happening.

    You're seeing what's happening. As it happens.

    By the time your turn rolls around, whilst the decisions weren't necessarily made quickly (during your opponent's turn), they should, however, have already been made. That's what gives the illusion of choices being made quickly or in a rush, because when that clock hits your turn, the player is already making moves without thinking...Because they've already thought.

    That's how you play with chess clocks. The same way, ironically, that chess players, do. If you're making decisions on your turn, you're too slow.
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  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Nobody makes decisions quickly, and nobody rushes. Not ever.
    What people do do, is figure out what they're going to do during their opponent's turn. By the time it's your turn, all's you have to do, really, is move models.

    This is one of the fundamental flaws in the current 40K, that is actually exploited by anyone who knows about said flaw.

    You, don't have anything to do with your opponent's turn. All's you have to do, is roll saves, and maybe answer a question or two about Toughness or number of wounds. And of course play an Overwatch Stratagem exactly once, maybe.
    The rest of the time, you can just check out. Go talk with your friends at another table (if you trust your opponent not to cheat), go to the shops three doors down and order a coffee and come back in ten minutes. Put your thumb up your butt.
    You don't have anything to do with your opponent's turn. It's the biggest complaint about 40K, but it's also it's greatest competitive strength, especially under time crunch.

    Now, you could be staring blankly at a wall, you could be chatting up your friends' missus, you could be flicking through your Codex to find a rule you forgot nope, you know all your rules, so scratch that. You could be doing anything. Including not even being at the table.

    What you should be doing, is taking your turn in your head, and evaluating what you're gonna do. Unfortunately, a lot of people can't actually do that, whilst still focusing on their opponent. Except most people don't actually realise that you don't need to engage your opponent at all during their turn, they, engage you, and only when they ask you. The rest of the time? If your opponent isn't asking you a direct question about your army, or asking you to roll saves...You may as well not be paying attention - because your attention should be on the board, not your opponent.

    The turn-by-turn decisions of the days of Maelstrom are over. This ain't Kill Team with alternating activations and fire dice surprises. You already know all of your Objectives, and you already know how to achieve all of them. And when your opponent's dice roll like fire, you have something like 4 more minutes before it's even your turn. You can see your opponent's turn, as they do it. It's not like you've closed your eyes for 20 minutes, suddenly woken up, and OMG new board state, must make decisions, but first I must figure out what's happening.

    You're seeing what's happening. As it happens.

    By the time your turn rolls around, whilst the decisions weren't necessarily made quickly (during your opponent's turn), they should, however, have already been made. That's what gives the illusion of choices being made quickly or in a rush, because when that clock hits your turn, the player is already making moves without thinking...Because they've already thought.

    That's how you play with chess clocks. The same way, ironically, that chess players, do. If you're making decisions on your turn, you're too slow.
    Sure. Really the biggest problem is turn 1. You have the most stuff, and if you went first, you don't get that time to plan. Now admittedly, I haven't played with a time limit since COVID started because there are no tournaments to play with in the first place. So I'm going off of the 8th edition ITC experience. Which admittedly didn't have that much interactions either.

    And I did find that I would have to rush. Because I did have to adjust my plans based on what my opponent killed or how they moved. That and it takes a surprisingly large amount of time to just go through your turn. Some of it is efficiency (like counting out the dice you need before hand), but simply moving every model just takes time. Obviously, some armies don't have that problem just do to model count. But playing a horde with a chess clock? It's very doable. But you have to be really efficient.

    The biggest thing is not having the time to hem and haw anymore. You never realize just how much time you spend second guessing yourself until you are forced to stop.
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  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Sure. Really the biggest problem is turn 1. You have the most stuff, and if you went first, you don't get that time to plan.
    Yes you do. You have your opponent's Deployment phase.

    This is why I keep telling people that actually, there's very little player choice in the game these days, because the choices you need to make, are usually so obvious, and made as a reaction to what your opponent's done.

    The only time that any real decisions get made, and I mean real decisions where no information is given, you just have to put something on the board...Is during your deployment, when you deploy first.

    Once you put your first unit down...Your opponent should already be making decisions, because they know what you've done. Your opponent's deployment phase starts, when you put your first unit down in any position. Your first turn starts, when your opponent deploys their first unit, in any position. When you start thinking of the game like this, you'll find you have plenty of time, all the time.

    That and it takes a surprisingly large amount of time to just go through your turn.
    It takes a surprisingly large amount of time to move models and roll dice.
    If you're spending your turn not doing those things, you're wasting time. Hence, why you're supposed to have already made your decisions. All the thinking you need to do, should be done on your opponent's time, not on yours.

    Some of it is efficiency (like counting out the dice you need before hand), but simply moving every model just takes time.
    Correct. I'm not arguing this. Not even a little bit.

    The biggest thing is not having the time to hem and haw anymore.
    Repeating myself now; There's plenty of time to do that. The good players will just hem and haw during their opponent's turn. Not their own.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    This reminds me of the times we ran our 4 vs 4 team battles. Everybody expected the same slow, agonizing, never ending drudgery of editions past. We got everyone playing at the same time, 30 mins per side, no exceptions. It was intense and amazing, and by the third turn people were flying through the rolls and the motions. They even skipped the lunch break due to how invested they were in not missing anything during their opponents turn. 5 rounds of 8000 points per side done in a little over 4 hours, no "full day" nonsense, no incomplete match, no more slow pace for dinos.

    Hopefully we'll run another soon once Covid is a thing of the past.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    The majority of our game was spent looking up rules and remembering what exactly the stats of the units were. After all, it was my first game with the new codex rules in effect, and it was his second ever game in 9th edition. As far as actual strategy, there was no time wasted thinking about what to do. We both knew what we were going to do, we just needed to know how to do it within the rules. I did spend some time looking up what the stratagems were, and seeing if there was anything I could possibly do at a given moment, but that was it.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    GW announces Sisters of Battle Sacresants as part of the upcoming plastic release.

    SoBs with Dark Angels-style halberds and what appears to be a combat shield with a boltpistol built in to the rim. Certainly a very sexy design, though possibly the death knell for Repentia who are already pretty niche in their CC role.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    SoBs with Dark Angels-style halberds and what appears to be a combat shield with a boltpistol built in to the rim.
    Melee unit? Check.
    'Heavily Armoured'? Check.
    More of the current meta, please. We aren't bored at all.

    though possibly the death knell for Repentia who are already pretty niche in their CC role.
    Of course. Repentia are a Melee unit, and as such are currently a must-have unit in every Sororitas army.
    Let's invalidate those and encourage you to buy new models, which are the same, but better, and make you feel stupid for owning the models you currently do.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Yes you do. You have your opponent's Deployment phase.

    This is why I keep telling people that actually, there's very little player choice in the game these days, because the choices you need to make, are usually so obvious, and made as a reaction to what your opponent's done.

    The only time that any real decisions get made, and I mean real decisions where no information is given, you just have to put something on the board...Is during your deployment, when you deploy first.

    Once you put your first unit down...Your opponent should already be making decisions, because they know what you've done. Your opponent's deployment phase starts, when you put your first unit down in any position. Your first turn starts, when your opponent deploys their first unit, in any position. When you start thinking of the game like this, you'll find you have plenty of time, all the time.



    It takes a surprisingly large amount of time to move models and roll dice.
    If you're spending your turn not doing those things, you're wasting time. Hence, why you're supposed to have already made your decisions. All the thinking you need to do, should be done on your opponent's time, not on yours.



    Correct. I'm not arguing this. Not even a little bit.



    Repeating myself now; There's plenty of time to do that. The good players will just hem and haw during their opponent's turn. Not their own.
    You seriously underestimate the amount of hemming and hawing people like to do. From checking every angle of a unit to make sure it is hidden to calculating how many shots to put into something, the time wasting in a casual game is immense, and for some people, out of control.

    Like you said, there is time in the game to get all your stuff done, but you have to be disciplined to not fall into the hemming and hawing traps and just make a 'snap' decision. Sure you have the opponent's turn to think about it, but they are moving fast too, and constantly interrupting your train of thought with questions and dice rolls.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Melee unit? Check.
    'Heavily Armoured'? Check.
    More of the current meta, please. We aren't bored at all.
    This was my first thought on seeing them too. Along with "Oh look its some not-bladeguard to go with the not-terminators and the not-predator".
    On the positive side, it is an amazing looking model. I do love me some halberds.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    I love the halberd, but I do admit that when I just saw the thumbnail for the link on Facebook and Twitter I thought it was going to be a spear and now I'm disappointed it's not. There aren't nearly enough spears in WH40k. Especially since Rough Riders aren't supported, and Secutarii Hoplite upgrade sets are $50 on TOP of the cost of the Skitarii you need to upgrade.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Fergie0044 View Post
    This was my first thought on seeing them too. Along with "Oh look its some not-bladeguard to go with the not-terminators and the not-predator".
    On the positive side, it is an amazing looking model. I do love me some halberds.
    Bladeguard but worse, since those appear to be combat shields (the bolt pistol is the giveaway), so they're only getting a 2+/5++
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Bladeguard but worse, since those appear to be combat shields (the bolt pistol is the giveaway), so they're only getting a 2+/5++
    That, and I expect them to only be 1 wound models. Though they likely can benefit from getting the +1 to Invulnerables so they'll have a 4++ at least.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    That, and I expect them to only be 1 wound models. Though they likely can benefit from getting the +1 to Invulnerables so they'll have a 4++ at least.
    so Crusaders? Unless they hit like a truck, they're DOA then.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    A good portion of the new releases do appear aimed at soft replacing the old ministorum stuff. The Dogmata looks to be a Misdionary, and these probably do for Crusaders, as you suggested

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    so Crusaders? Unless they hit like a truck, they're DOA then.
    To replace Repentia they'd have to.

    I mean, here's what they are up against:

    4 Attacks at S6 Hitting on 4+, AP -4 2 Damage, with full rerolls to hit. And perhaps reroll 1s to wound if they took a Repentia Superior. Sure, Repentia die really easily to bolter fire, but it rarely matters. If they get the charge they'll kill most things straight out and they are 144 points for a maxed out squad.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    To replace Repentia they'd have to.

    I mean, here's what they are up against:

    4 Attacks at S6 Hitting on 4+, AP -4 2 Damage, with full rerolls to hit. And perhaps reroll 1s to wound if they took a Repentia Superior. Sure, Repentia die really easily to bolter fire, but it rarely matters. If they get the charge they'll kill most things straight out and they are 144 points for a maxed out squad.
    Unless they were Bladeguard-lite, focusing on survival and a gimmicky board control strat / special rule over just offensive power. But T3 with a low inv. and 1 wound is junk at surviving (remember when someone tried to argue for Dire Avengers?) so they would be a waste to take.

    Wonder if the maces or the halbers will be the better choice.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    With the caveat that having a Grand Tournament right now is a stupid idea, someone did, so at least there's tournament data. The lists are supposed to be uploaded within the next couple of days. Per the TO on Facebook:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom Erzengel
    Things to keep in mind.

    • I ruled Typhus and Fabius Bile don't break detachments and allow stratagems, relics, etc based on what I thought was "intent" behind giving them rules designed to not break detachments (Even if the rules became outdated due to newer books using slightly different wording)
    • I allowed fortifications with wound values to deploy normally and ignored the bizarre FAQ that said they had to be outside of 3" from anything.
    • I ruled Reaver Jetbikes are 20 pts a model
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Of course. Repentia are a Melee unit, and as such are currently a must-have unit in every Sororitas army.
    Let's invalidate those and encourage you to buy new models, which are the same, but better, and make you feel stupid for owning the models you currently do.
    I've felt stupid for owning Repentia for the 5 years Ive had them, so that ain't new. Then again, they came with the Lot Sale, so I didn't have a choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    To replace Repentia they'd have to.

    I mean, here's what they are up against:

    4 Attacks at S6 Hitting on 4+, AP -4 2 Damage, with full rerolls to hit. And perhaps reroll 1s to wound if they took a Repentia Superior. Sure, Repentia die really easily to bolter fire, but it rarely matters. If they get the charge they'll kill most things straight out and they are 144 points for a maxed out squad.
    Big IF there, considering they're T3 with a 6++ as their only defence.

    I can easily see the Halberd being S5 AP -3 with D2, and with the 5++ they'll most likely have, they'll be better. They're the melee Celestians we always asked for.

    Seriously, all they needed was an extra attack and a freaking Storm Shield!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    You seriously underestimate the amount of hemming and hawing people like to do.
    No, I'm not.
    What I'm saying is that if you hem and haw in your turn, you're a bad player, and you wont cope with chess clocks. Good players can cope with chess clocks, and I'm telling you a big way of how.

    Even as a casual, you can apply the same method of having your turn in your opponent's turn, and waste a lot less time.

    To reiterate; I'm not saying you can't think about the choices you make. I'm saying that by the end of your opponent's turn, you have had 20, 30 or even 40 minutes worth of information. You should have already been making choices.

    It's a skill that separate good and bad players. Good players are okay with chess clocks. Bad players are not.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Big IF there, considering they're T3 with a 6++ as their only defence.

    I can easily see the Halberd being S5 AP -3 with D2, and with the 5++ they'll most likely have, they'll be better. They're the melee Celestians we always asked for.

    Seriously, all they needed was an extra attack and a freaking Storm Shield!
    It's pretty easy to get Repentia in. Rhino are one way, and doing an Advance and charge out of them. The other is saving a 5 and a 4 for Miracle dice and just guaranteeing a charge out of Reinforcements. There's some level of counter play, sure, but not so much that it makes it a struggle to use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    No, I'm not.
    What I'm saying is that if you hem and haw in your turn, you're a bad player, and you wont cope with chess clocks. Good players can cope with chess clocks, and I'm telling you a big way of how.

    Even as a casual, you can apply the same method of having your turn in your opponent's turn, and waste a lot less time.

    To reiterate; I'm not saying you can't think about the choices you make. I'm saying that by the end of your opponent's turn, you have had 20, 30 or even 40 minutes worth of information. You should have already been making choices.

    It's a skill that separate good and bad players. Good players are okay with chess clocks. Bad players are not.
    I agree with that, I suppose. I just word it differently, that it takes skill and getting used to not hemming and hawing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    With the caveat that having a Grand Tournament right now is a stupid idea, someone did, so at least there's tournament data. The lists are supposed to be uploaded within the next couple of days. Per the TO on Facebook:
    And Drukhari take 1 and 2. Good to see the new Codex taking wins.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    It's pretty easy to get Repentia in. Rhino are one way, and doing an Advance and charge out of them. The other is saving a 5 and a 4 for Miracle dice and just guaranteeing a charge out of Reinforcements. There's some level of counter play, sure, but not so much that it makes it a struggle to use them.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Can you use two Miracle Dice on one roll?
    Yes, you can.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I agree with that, I suppose. I just word it differently, that it takes skill and getting used to not hemming and hawing.
    At the risk of repeating myself; Good players under chess clocks are thinking about what to do:
    They are making calculations in their heads.
    They are wondering if it's really a good idea to do 'X'.
    They are re-evaluating their board position after their opponent's Shooting phase.

    A good player should be thinking about what they're gonna do for almost half the game, more or less.

    What they're not doing, is thinking about what they're gonna do during the same time, during the same half, that a bad player would think things over under a chess clock.

    A great example:
    Your opponent takes a risk, and Advances their unit, rolls hot, and makes it onto an Objective.
    It is currently the middle of their Movement phase, near the top of their turn. You should already be making decisions.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    At the risk of repeating myself; Good players under chess clocks are thinking about what to do
    Nah, thats middle-of-the-pack players. Good players already know what they'll do, they're just shuffling one of a number of pre-planned sequences from their recipe book.

    A good player should be thinking about what they're gonna do for almost half the game, more or less.
    A good player thinks about this during list building. Its all rote repetition once on the table, gives you time to trash talk or just shoot the breeze. Keeps your opponent distracted, and if he isn't as good / doesn't have as many plays memorized, he'll eat up minutes or make a mistake.

    A great example:
    Your opponent takes a risk, and Advances their unit, rolls hot, and makes it onto an Objective.
    It is currently the middle of their Movement phase, near the top of their turn. You should already be making decisions.
    Threat ranges are known quantities. Can't roll hotter than a 6", so during deployment you already know if you want to counter a possible rush or not, and deploy acordingly. That they do it or not shouldn't affect your game plan, you were either going to contest it anyways and deployed accordingly, or weren't and will score 10 / 15 as planned anyways.

    You focus on what you can control, that is, what you do. Your stuff shoots at what they shoot, hits at what they hit, and you know all this long before you ever get to the game. Yes, you adjust your gameplan based on the scenario, but its less coming up with something than moving from play 1.a.III to 1.a.IV.

    Doing this makes the game a much more relaxed affair. Instead of stressing out due to last minute spur of the moment decisions, you have mind space left to discuss the latest sports match, lore trivia, listen to music or eat / drink as you go. I've always found games get more and more relaxing the more familiar I become with a given faction / list.
    Last edited by LansXero; 2021-04-13 at 12:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Good players already know what they'll do, they're just shuffling one of a number of pre-planned sequences from their recipe book.
    Partial agree.

    Its all rote repetition once on the table, gives you time to trash talk or just shoot the breeze.
    Again, partial agree.
    But as I've said many times now, there are still a few instances of player choice still in the game, and there are many cases where, in fact, the dice make fools of us all.

    Sometimes, the thing that's supposed to happen, doesn't.
    Or the thing that wasn't supposed to happen, does.

    You focus on what you can control, that is, what you do. Your stuff shoots at what they shoot, hits at what they hit, and you know all this long before you ever get to the game.
    Correct.
    I point this out to new players all the time. You don't need to waste time trying to figure out what your Lascannons are going to shoot at. Because you already decided during list creation that your Lascannons were going to shoot Vehicles (and Heavy Infantry). So what's taking you so long? Just shoot the target you already decided four days ago, that they were going to shoot.

    Doing this makes the game a much more relaxed affair. Instead of stressing out due to last minute spur of the moment decisions, you have mind space left to discuss the latest sports match, lore trivia, listen to music or eat / drink as you go. I've always found games get more and more relaxing the more familiar I become with a given faction / list.
    Woah woah woah.
    I have it on good authority that competitive players aren't having fun.

    And actually I think you've nailed it, in a way that I've never considered before. I know my rules. I know my army list. I know my opponent's army list. This frees up my brain to think - and talk - about anything else during the game. The more me and my opponents learn rules, the more fun we have, because we actually aren't concentrating on when or what to shoot or fight with, which lets us have fun in other, non-game ways, whilst still getting a 2000 Point game done in less than 2.5 hours.

    I've never thought of it that way before. But now that I recognise it, it's really obvious.
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