Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

[Forum Explorer]

I just wanted my Repressors back and for Pen Engines to be decent. I didn't want freaking Predators or Not!Dreadknights.

Like, I see how much bloat the Marines have I want none of that. We've always had a pretty limited Codex, but the choices always had the capacity to be fine. Like, we didn't need a new unit for Bladeguard, just make Celestians not suck. They can totally fill that roll.

Pen Engines are decent. Not particularly great, but decent. Repressors were...well not awful, but only because SoB were so weak at the time. Not that they are good, Repressors would be way too oppressive to deal with. Strong shooting units, shooting out of actually durable vehicles? Drukarii don't even have durable transports and they show how deadly that can be.

But overall, I don't mind these new units we are seeing. The Nundam (Nun in a Gundam) looks like a proper dreadnaught model that can be both a shooting or melee unit, and Sisters actually don't have one of those. The Predator looks fine, I'm just not excited because 12 wound vehicles have just been pretty bad in 9th, and it'll be competing with both Exorcists and Retributors. The Halberd Sisters actually look really cool, but they are competing in an already pretty well filled niche. Though I like the models enough I might end up trying to get some anyways.

I don't like the new characters though. Sisters did not need the Palatine, and they certainly didn't need the Banner Lady.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah, but that doesn't sell new models. Given the choice between making the models you already have good and making new models and making those good instead, we know what GW is going to do every time.

I mean... most SoB players had like... 2 Pen Engines. We totally woulda bought more.

Pen Engines are decent. Not particularly great, but decent. Repressors were...well not awful, but only because SoB were so weak at the time. Not that they are good, Repressors would be way too oppressive to deal with. Strong shooting units, shooting out of actually durable vehicles? Drukarii don't even have durable transports and they show how deadly that can be.

But overall, I don't mind these new units we are seeing. The Nundam (Nun in a Gundam) looks like a proper dreadnaught model that can be both a shooting or melee unit, and Sisters actually don't have one of those. The Predator looks fine, I'm just not excited because 12 wound vehicles have just been pretty bad in 9th, and it'll be competing with both Exorcists and Retributors. The Halberd Sisters actually look really cool, but they are competing in an already pretty well filled niche. Though I like the models enough I might end up trying to get some anyways.

I don't like the new characters though. Sisters did not need the Palatine, and they certainly didn't need the Banner Lady.

I mostly just see it as superfluous. Like, I don't need a Walker that does that. I already have Pen Engines and Excorsists to do those roles, and I get that role compression is a thing, but if its too good then why would anyone pick the other stuff?

And that's my point. The Preds are fighting with Immolators and Excorsists, which is them just giving us something we didn't really need. Like, Fast Attack was pretty lonely, they coulda put something in there!

And yes, I agree. The Banner Lady is just... blah.

[Forum Explorer]

I mostly just see it as superfluous. Like, I don't need a Walker that does that. I already have Pen Engines and Excorsists to do those roles, and I get that role compression is a thing, but if its too good then why would anyone pick the other stuff?

And that's my point. The Preds are fighting with Immolators and Excorsists, which is them just giving us something we didn't really need. Like, Fast Attack was pretty lonely, they coulda put something in there!

And yes, I agree. The Banner Lady is just... blah.

The Walker at least is new in the sense that it does both, while Pen Engines and Exoricists do one or the other. A new Fast Attack would be nice though what would you do? My suggestion is a angel robot.

[Blackhawk748]

The Walker at least is new in the sense that it does both, while Pen Engines and Exoricists do one or the other. A new Fast Attack would be nice though what would you do? My suggestion is a angel robot.

Lascannon Snipers? Regular Snipers? Hell, I'll accept Autocannons, I just want something with more than 36 inch range that isn't on a vehicle.

[Cheesegear]

The last thing that anyone wants, or that the game needs, is for SoBs to become "the obviously worst Space Marine Chapter" and nothing else.

Partial disagree. Particularly because there's two or three really, really good Sororitas lists going 'round. Not necessarily a mono-build Codex. But, they do have a few really good units.

But of course the causal meta never builds their list competitively, and are prone to making bad choices and mistakes. So when you make mistakes as a Space Marine player, it's not as bad. Space Marines aren't on top of the meta, they define the meta. If you can't beat Marines, you've already lost. You know that, so you build your list to kill Marines, and that's why Marines don't win tournaments. Therefore, Marines must be bad, right? No. Wrong. Ahhhh....

Which is always a fun fallacy: "Space Marines aren't even winning tournaments, so there's no problem." Been hearing it since the edition started, and yet casuals are still complaining about the power level of even mediocre Space Marine army lists - there's a reason for that. Because Space Marines define "You must be at least this good to play." If you are at least this good, you can beat Space Marines. Therefore, let's write an article about how Space Marines aren't even good and look how many tournaments they're not even winning. Anyone complaining about Space Marines being a problem needs some gas in their lights.

Spoiler: Sisters aren't Space Marines, Honest

Show

[Forum Explorer]

Partial disagree. Particularly because there's two or three really, really good Sororitas lists going 'round. Not necessarily a mono-build Codex. But, they do have a few really good units.

But of course the causal meta never builds their list competitively, and are prone to making bad choices and mistakes. So when you make mistakes as a Space Marine player, it's not as bad. Space Marines aren't on top of the meta, they define the meta. If you can't beat Marines, you've already lost. You know that, so you build your list to kill Marines, and that's why Marines don't win tournaments. Therefore, Marines must be bad, right? No. Wrong. Ahhhh....

Which is always a fun fallacy: "Space Marines aren't even winning tournaments, so there's no problem." Been hearing it since the edition started, and yet casuals are still complaining about the power level of even mediocre Space Marine army lists - there's a reason for that. Because Space Marines define "You must be at least this good to play." If you are at least this good, you can beat Space Marines. Therefore, let's write an article about how Space Marines aren't even good and look how many tournaments they're not even winning. Anyone complaining about Space Marines being a problem needs some gas in their lights.

Spoiler: Sisters aren't Space Marines, Honest

Show

Oh, holy crap, I just realized that the Halberd Sisters are a reference to the Vatican Guard. Halberds are their traditional weapon after all.

Anyways if you want to compare those two, than it is only fair to include Crusaders as well, which look a lot more like Bladeguard. Afterall, we haven't seen their rules yet, so we don't really know what they'll actually play like.

Spoiler

Show

[Wraith]

Partial disagree. Particularly because there's two or three really, really good Sororitas lists going 'round. Not necessarily a mono-build Codex. But, they do have a few really good units.

Perhaps I should clarify that I hope they don't get thought of as The Worst Space Marines by default, as that is the sort of thing that leads to decade-long shunning and WD-only codices.... They're not good so no one buys them, so they get no updates, so they're no good, so no one buys them... etc.

Because I have clearly made that mistake - I've seen Boltors and Powers Armour and a Predator and a wonky "Dreadknight" and a new 'Ancient' and immediately thought: T3 Space Marines? "No, thanks" so I expect that others will too, and evidently that is a great mis-service to the faction. Subtlety and nuance is all well and good, but that doesn't translate well to advertising them to new players or ones who already have a bunch of Space Marines and need a reason to branch out.

Anyways if you want to compare those two, than it is only fair to include Crusaders as well, which look a lot more like Bladeguard. Afterall, we haven't seen their rules yet, so we don't really know what they'll actually play like.

Slightly different premise because that model you have quoted is 17 years old. At least, the metal sculpt of it has 2003 on the slotta. So technically, Bladeguard are sort-of based on Crusaders and not the other way around.

[Forum Explorer]

Slightly different premise because that model you have quoted is 17 years old. At least, the metal sculpt of it has 2003 on the slotta. So technically, Bladeguard are sort-of based on Crusaders and not the other way around.

Fair enough. I suppose I should have said that 'melee weapon with a shield' all looks relatively similar.

[Cheesegear]

Because I have clearly made that mistake - I've seen Boltors and Powers Armour and a Predator and a wonky "Dreadknight" and a new 'Ancient' and immediately thought: T3 Space Marines? "No, thanks" so I expect that others will too, and evidently that is a great mis-service to the faction.

Yes and No.
They are S/T 3 Space Marines. But that isn't all they are. Unfortunately, it's quite often presented that WarCom writers don't know the rules of the game, and as such don't know what's good, when they read it. They're PR-Guys, and their goal is to parrot whatever playtesting has arguably deemed fun - rather than good*. "This is representative of the Faction." and when you present "Nuns with Guns" trying to be in on the meme, you present, that you do in fact see Sororitas as a meme, not as something to be seriously sold for money.

*However we also know that there's potential for wrongdoing, since anything good that they actually put on WarCom, has the potential to be nerfed, and that may or may not cause a problem. A corporation's ability to edit and delete (false) advertising in a matter of hours has brought up some interesting cases. But...

Subtlety and nuance is all well and good, but that doesn't translate well to advertising them to new players or ones who already have a bunch of Space Marines and need a reason to branch out.

New players aren't reading WarCom. New players are in their hobby store asking the local Blackshirt what's good, and asking local regulars what the usual rate and ratio of play, is. Still, in the age of the internet, a lot of new players are still getting their advertising via word-of-mouth. "I'm looking to get into 40K, what's good?" asks someone on the other side of the world from me.

I'm not convinced that WarCom is for anyone except for those already predisposed to reading WarCom in the first place. Gotta get those whales.

So technically, Bladeguard are sort-of based on Crusaders and not the other way around.

Bladeguard are based on invalidating your Hammernators.
Sacresants are based on a Space Marine that sells really well that is very popular and good.

[Wraith]

Fair enough. I suppose I should have said that 'melee weapon with a shield' all looks relatively similar.

Oh, I see. Sorry, I wasn't trying to nit-pick; I read it like you believed that was a new model, I beg your pardon.

New players aren't reading WarCom. New players are in their hobby store asking the local Blackshirt what's good, and asking local regulars what the usual rate and ratio of play, is. Still, in the age of the internet, a lot of new players are still getting their advertising via word-of-mouth. "I'm looking to get into 40K, what's good?" asks someone on the other side of the world from me.

This kind of plays into my point, doesn't it?

Little Timmy walks into a store and asks, "I want to play - what's good?". For all their niche appeal, Sisters aren't even in the top 5 of answers so someone needs a reason to play them other than "there's this one powerful combo that excludes half of your codex to pull off", and "They look like Space Marines, but not really" isn't enough, I think.

I feel that Sisters blur the line too hard; 30k already proved that a game doesn't work if everyone is a "Space Marine" no matter how many different colours you can paint them. Say what you want about the freaky Mechanicus bird-plane things but at least they're distinctive and you can understand why someone might find them ugly-cute enough to buy them.

[Fable Wright]

Little Timmy walks into a store and asks, "I want to play - what's good?". For all their niche appeal, Sisters aren't even in the top 5 of answers so someone needs a reason to play them other than "there's this one powerful combo that excludes half of your codex to pull off", and "They look like Space Marines, but not really" isn't enough, I think.

Wait, they're not? I was under the impression that miracle dice for guaranteed 9-12" charges off Deep Strike, the sheer killing power of Repentia, the toolbox powers of the army, and their use of e.g. Rhino transports and just the guaranteed value of Miracle Dice made them top-tier. Arguably the list to beat, once Deldar get a bit less silly.

[LansXero]

Wait, they're not? I was under the impression that miracle dice for guaranteed 9-12" charges off Deep Strike, the sheer killing power of Repentia, the toolbox powers of the army, and their use of e.g. Rhino transports and just the guaranteed value of Miracle Dice made them top-tier. Arguably the list to beat, once Deldar get a bit less silly.

Thats just gibberish to a new player. In fact, it might even discourage them if they feel its not a "beginner-friendly" army. Newblets, specially casual ones, are weird.

[Forum Explorer]

This kind of plays into my point, doesn't it?

Little Timmy walks into a store and asks, "I want to play - what's good?". For all their niche appeal, Sisters aren't even in the top 5 of answers so someone needs a reason to play them other than "there's this one powerful combo that excludes half of your codex to pull off", and "They look like Space Marines, but not really" isn't enough, I think.

I feel that Sisters blur the line too hard; 30k already proved that a game doesn't work if everyone is a "Space Marine" no matter how many different colours you can paint them. Say what you want about the freaky Mechanicus bird-plane things but at least they're distinctive and you can understand why someone might find them ugly-cute enough to buy them.

No, they are totally in the top 5 answers, even casually, simply because they don't have the models to have trap options. So if little Timmy came in looking for an army to play, reasons to recommend Sisters would be:

1. Everyone has an Invulnerable save, that can be boosted to a 4++. That makes the army surprisingly durable.

2. Miracle Dice are a unique mechanic, that cuts out arguably the most frustrating part of the game, getting screwed over by the dice at a critical moment. Be it making an important save, or guaranteeing a charge, Miracle Dice are incredibly powerful.

3. Sacred Rites are decent, and flexible. They give mild bonuses but let you pivot into an anti-psyker army at the drop of a hat.

4. As Imperium you can ally in things if you want or take neat models like Assassins. Sisters aren't penalized that badly for taking allies, only losing Sacred Rites.

5. They just got a brand new line and the new models are beautiful. They look like futuristic holy crusaders, and their models are very distinct from the Space Marines, for all that you can call them 'chicks in power armor'.

6. Their special characters are both unique looking and powerful. They've got a literal angel, a holy procession, and someone on a hovering battle pulpit.

7. They can interact in all parts of the game. Shooting? They have plenty, and are good at it. Melee? Lots of melee units, and good ones too. Mobility? Sure, you've got transports, you've got Seraphim, you've got options. Psychic? As mentioned you can shut down psychic pretty hard if you take the appropriate Sacred Rite.


So yeah, to a new player, I'd say if they wanted something a little more unique than superhuman in power armor, Sister of Battle with their shtick of being holy crusaders and the aesthetics of that could be an appealing option.

[IthilanorStPete]

No, they are totally in the top 5 answers, even casually, simply because they don't have the models to have trap options. So if little Timmy came in looking for an army to play, reasons to recommend Sisters would be:

1. Everyone has an Invulnerable save, that can be boosted to a 4++. That makes the army surprisingly durable.

2. Miracle Dice are a unique mechanic, that cuts out arguably the most frustrating part of the game, getting screwed over by the dice at a critical moment. Be it making an important save, or guaranteeing a charge, Miracle Dice are incredibly powerful.

3. Sacred Rites are decent, and flexible. They give mild bonuses but let you pivot into an anti-psyker army at the drop of a hat.

4. As Imperium you can ally in things if you want or take neat models like Assassins. Sisters aren't penalized that badly for taking allies, only losing Sacred Rites.

5. They just got a brand new line and the new models are beautiful. They look like futuristic holy crusaders, and their models are very distinct from the Space Marines, for all that you can call them 'chicks in power armor'.

6. Their special characters are both unique looking and powerful. They've got a literal angel, a holy procession, and someone on a hovering battle pulpit.

7. They can interact in all parts of the game. Shooting? They have plenty, and are good at it. Melee? Lots of melee units, and good ones too. Mobility? Sure, you've got transports, you've got Seraphim, you've got options. Psychic? As mentioned you can shut down psychic pretty hard if you take the appropriate Sacred Rite.


So yeah, to a new player, I'd say if they wanted something a little more unique than superhuman in power armor, Sister of Battle with their shtick of being holy crusaders and the aesthetics of that could be an appealing option.

...Heck, you're kind of selling me on them, and I was thinking of going Craftworlds; it'd be nice to have a non-Marine Imperial army whose aesthetics I actually like. I was under the impression SoB were kind of neglected by GW; seems like that's kind of changed since the 5e days.

(And before anyone asks why I keep talking about getting into the game but not actually doing so, a. COVID's still kind of a thing in the US, b. I recently lost my job. I swear I'll buy some models one of these days.)

[Forum Explorer]

...Heck, you're kind of selling me on them, and I was thinking of going Craftworlds; it'd be nice to have a non-Marine Imperial army whose aesthetics I actually like. I was under the impression SoB were kind of neglected by GW; seems like that's kind of changed since the 5e days.

(And before anyone asks why I keep talking about getting into the game but not actually doing so, a. COVID's still kind of a thing in the US, b. I recently lost my job. I swear I'll buy some models one of these days.)

They've gotten a lot of attention lately both with a ton of new models coming out; LT, Dreadknight, Predator, Halberd, Banner chick. That's 5 new units this year. They are expected to get a new codex in July. And there have been a bunch of Black Library releases and as far as I can tell, the plastic sisters have been wildly successful. They even got to be in the cinematic for the 9th edition release. GW has been giving them lots of attention, and people have been eating it up.

Oh, but if you are going to start, I'd maybe wait until July, where we'll hopefully see the Codex drop with all the new models. Though if you collect slowly (like me), than you can just pick up the base Battle Sister. It is your only troop choice, so you need some no matter what.

[AdmiralCheez]

...Heck, you're kind of selling me on them, and I was thinking of going Craftworlds; it'd be nice to have a non-Marine Imperial army whose aesthetics I actually like. I was under the impression SoB were kind of neglected by GW; seems like that's kind of changed since the 5e days.

Right? They're sounding really good. I'm actually glad I managed to get a hold of the Piety and Pain box, so now I have some to start out with. I'm liking the holy crusader aesthetic a lot more than I thought I would, and the rules I've found on battlescribe have been encouraging. Miracle dice sounds like a fun mechanic, too.

[Blackhawk748]

Oh, I see. Sorry, I wasn't trying to nit-pick; I read it like you believed that was a new model, I beg your pardon.



This kind of plays into my point, doesn't it?

Little Timmy walks into a store and asks, "I want to play - what's good?". For all their niche appeal, Sisters aren't even in the top 5 of answers so someone needs a reason to play them other than "there's this one powerful combo that excludes half of your codex to pull off", and "They look like Space Marines, but not really" isn't enough, I think.

I feel that Sisters blur the line too hard; 30k already proved that a game doesn't work if everyone is a "Space Marine" no matter how many different colours you can paint them. Say what you want about the freaky Mechanicus bird-plane things but at least they're distinctive and you can understand why someone might find them ugly-cute enough to buy them.

Frankly I always pitched them as "Guardsmen with better guns who can take a hit" cuz that's more accurate to their playstyle than "T3 SPace Marines". Sisters tend to flood the board, use the bajeesus out of Heavy Bolters and Flamers and have a vital vehicle that is basically just artillery.

Wait, they're not? I was under the impression that miracle dice for guaranteed 9-12" charges off Deep Strike, the sheer killing power of Repentia, the toolbox powers of the army, and their use of e.g. Rhino transports and just the guaranteed value of Miracle Dice made them top-tier. Arguably the list to beat, once Deldar get a bit less silly.

And do you honestly think a brand new player is gonna be able to do that? It's the same issue Harlequins have, they aren't exactly a "fire and forget" kind of army. Now they aren't as bad as Harlequins but SM are way easier to paly.

No, they are totally in the top 5 answers, even casually, simply because they don't have the models to have trap options. So if little Timmy came in looking for an army to play, reasons to recommend Sisters would be:

They won't be in the top 5 because they aren't a common army, and people who know 40k from Video Games will barely know they exist. The standard 5 recommendations look more like this, as far as I've seen.

Space Marines
Orks
Chaos Marines
Guard
Eldar

If those look like the first 5 Armies from Dawn of War, well... there's a reason for that.

They've gotten a lot of attention lately both with a ton of new models coming out; LT, Dreadknight, Predator, Halberd, Banner chick. That's 5 new units this year. They are expected to get a new codex in July. And there have been a bunch of Black Library releases and as far as I can tell, the plastic sisters have been wildly successful. They even got to be in the cinematic for the 9th edition release. GW has been giving them lots of attention, and people have been eating it up.

Oh, but if you are going to start, I'd maybe wait until July, where we'll hopefully see the Codex drop with all the new models. Though if you collect slowly (like me), than you can just pick up the base Battle Sister. It is your only troop choice, so you need some no matter what.

....are they all brand new because Sisters had literally 2 books, an audiobook and a Graphic Novel before 8th ed.

[Forum Explorer]

And do you honestly think a brand new player is gonna be able to do that? It's the same issue Harlequins have, they aren't exactly a "fire and forget" kind of army. Now they aren't as bad as Harlequins but SM are way easier to paly.



They won't be in the top 5 because they aren't a common army, and people who know 40k from Video Games will barely know they exist. The standard 5 recommendations look more like this, as far as I've seen.

Space Marines
Orks
Chaos Marines
Guard
Eldar

If those look like the first 5 Armies from Dawn of War, well... there's a reason for that.



....are they all brand new because Sisters had literally 2 books, an audiobook and a Graphic Novel before 8th ed.

Yes. Miracle dice aren’t complex.

If I was to suggest a new army to someone they would be. It’d likely be: Sisters, Space Marines, Necrons, Death Guard, Dark Eldar. In no particular order.

Why those? Because they are decent to good, have their Codexs or will soon, and have good box sets. Well I’m not sure about Death Guards box sets.

For a completely new player I would just take them to the codexs, ask them what cover they think is interesting and then tell them about their choice(s)

I believe so, yes.

[Hootman]

In working at a game store for a while, I found that Tau and Nids were some of the more common choices for new players. Interesting that no one here has mentioned them; is it just that they're struggling right now? Or do people think they're meaningfully more complex than other armies at low level play? They've always seemed straightforward to me, but I'm reasonably sure I can't make a broader assessment.

Edit: Nids are a bit of a pain to buy into, same as Orks and Guard to an extent. That could be a factor that just didn't cross my mind until after I posted.

[Blackhawk748]

In working at a game store for a while, I found that Tau and Nids were some of the more common choices for new players. Interesting that no one here has mentioned them; is it just that they're struggling right now? Or do people think they're meaningfully more complex than other armies at low level play? They've always seemed straightforward to me, but I'm reasonably sure I can't make a broader assessment.

Edit: Nids are a bit of a pain to buy into, same as Orks and Guard to an extent. That could be a factor that just didn't cross my mind until after I posted.

Primary armies around me, before 40k died in 7th, were Space Marines, Guard, Nids, and Orks. So, so many Orks.

Like, there was a random Tau player, my buddy who played Crons and like 2 Eldar players.

[Squark]

Well I’m not sure about Death Guards box sets.

DG box is unfortunately hot garbage; Not legal out of the box, and no real killing power. A real let down after Know no fear.

[LansXero]

Yes. Miracle dice aren’t complex.

You really don't understand new players.

Sisters, (...) have good box sets.

They don't even have an start collecting :s

[Cheesegear]

They won't be in the top 5 because they aren't a common army, and people who know 40k from Video Games will barely know they exist. The standard 5 recommendations look more like this, as far as I've seen.

What I Recommend:
- Space Marines
- Necrons
- Death Guard
[...]
- Custodes
- Sororitas
...In exactly that order. If you see a pattern in my recommendation...Yep.

What I See:
- Space Marines
- Necrons
- Orks
- Tyranids
- Chaos Space Marines (NB. not Death Guard)

New Craftworlds players have dropped off the map in 9th Ed. Probably a reason for that.

I don't think I've ever been around in a time where people don't try and start Ork and Tyranids armies. It's also for as long as I can remember, that new Ork and Tyranid players have high turnover.
Space Marines and Necrons are currently the starter armies, so that makes sense. Chaos Space Marines are like the starter army, but edgy.

[Forum Explorer]

In working at a game store for a while, I found that Tau and Nids were some of the more common choices for new players. Interesting that no one here has mentioned them; is it just that they're struggling right now? Or do people think they're meaningfully more complex than other armies at low level play? They've always seemed straightforward to me, but I'm reasonably sure I can't make a broader assessment.

Edit: Nids are a bit of a pain to buy into, same as Orks and Guard to an extent. That could be a factor that just didn't cross my mind until after I posted.

Nids are complex in a lot of ways. It is very easy to make a bad Tyranid list and tricky to make a good one. You can though as Tyranids can operate in every phase, so Tyranids at least have potential. Sadly a lot of their cool options aren't that good, so a new player can mess up pretty easily and end up struggling.

Tau are just in a bad spot. Ranged only army in a time when melee is king. I feel like a new player would be continually frustrated at the inability to actually do things.

You really don't understand new players.



They don't even have an start collecting :s

Say rather that new players continually fail to meet my expectations instead.

I was thinking of the Piety and Pain box set, but I suppose that was actually a limited release, wasn't it?

[Cheesegear]

I was thinking of the Piety and Pain box set...

Colour me interested. What's that? I can't find it on GW's webstore.

EDIT:
Found a few copies on eBay. Is that what you call a 'cost-effective' good box? I did some maths, and it seems like I can buy the individual units for less than I can buy the box on eBay. What's that about? However I can't find the Palatine or Lelith Hesperax. Did GW stop producing those models? I don't understand why Piety & Pain is so expensive. Why doesn't GW sell it? Why is it only on eBay for ~150% more than the Command Edition? ...Maybe I'll start with Space Marines or Necrons and buy an Elite Edition or two.

[DataNinja]

Found a few copies on eBay. Is that what you call a 'cost-effective' good box? I did some maths, and it seems like I can buy the individual units for less than I can buy the box on eBay.

Presumably they were thinking that it was still in webstores, and still at whatever non-marked up price. It seems unreasonable to believe that they would suggest buying from resale as a "good deal" given that the discussion was beginners and box sets.

[Forum Explorer]

Colour me interested. What's that? I can't find it on GW's webstore.

EDIT:
Found a few copies on eBay. Is that what you call a 'cost-effective' good box? I did some maths, and it seems like I can buy the individual units for less than I can buy the box on eBay. What's that about? However I can't find the Palatine or Lelith Hesperax. Did GW stop producing those models? I don't understand why Piety & Pain is so expensive. Why doesn't GW sell it? Why is it only on eBay for ~150% more than the Command Edition? ...Maybe I'll start with Space Marines or Necrons and buy an Elite Edition or two.

Yeah, the original cost was something like 180. Get someone to split it with you for the Dark Eldar stuff, and it was 90$ for an Immolator, a squad of retributors, and a character, which amounted to something like 60$ in savings. I forgot that it was a limited release.

[Wraith]

Wait, they're not? I was under the impression that miracle dice for guaranteed 9-12" charges off Deep Strike, the sheer killing power of Repentia, the toolbox powers of the army, and their use of e.g. Rhino transports and just the guaranteed value of Miracle Dice made them top-tier. Arguably the list to beat, once Deldar get a bit less silly.

Seems to be that my point from above is more or less supported by the fact that it's high-level players like Cheesegear, Fable Wright and Forum Explorer who say they're fine if you're playing them a high level, and then other people have taken one look and said that's all fine and good unless you're a new and don't know what any of those words mean.
Sisters are ABSOLUTELY a top 5 army.... *IF* you know that you're only using units A, C and E and exploiting your unique special rules and know how to handle their attached vehicles and understand the metagame behind Alpha-Striking and ....

I'm not trying to call you guys out, but the fact that the argument exists suggests that there is some contention, or at least that different people have different expectations from "entry level" play. After all; I never said the were a *bad* army, but if someone asks you how to start in 40k, which army are you probably going to tell them - Sisters, or Space Marines? And why? ...Exactly my point.

In working at a game store for a while, I found that Tau and Nids were some of the more common choices for new players. Interesting that no one here has mentioned them; is it just that they're struggling right now? Or do people think they're meaningfully more complex than other armies at low level play? They've always seemed straightforward to me, but I'm reasonably sure I can't make a broader assessment.

Tyranids and Tau have always been some of the most interesting armies in terms of theme and aesthetic - that's been true for decades, and it's always been easy to see the appeal of why you'd want to collect them.

But yes, both are in pretty bad shape right now. Arguably 'Nids have never been in 'great' shape as even at their best - the Horde-meta of 8th - they were overshadowed by stuff like Death Guard and Orks who were just better, whereas high-level Tau needed help from an Aeldari alliance back in 6th/7th and haven't really had an update since that was taken away from them in 8th. Both codices have struggled to make their mark on the meta long term, and right now they're at the bottom of the pile of Xenos codices who need an update - a pile which itself is beneath an even bigger pile of other books that are coming out first.

Even Sisters of Battle got a codex update before Tyranids! Historically, that's like saying Hell has officially frozen over. Even *Squats* got a new release, before Tyranids/9th!

[Cheesegear]

I'm not trying to call you guys out, but the fact that the argument exists suggests that there is some contention, or at least that different people have different expectations from "entry level" play. After all; I never said the were a *bad* army, but if someone asks you how to start in 40k, which army are you probably going to tell them - Sisters, or Space Marines? And why? ...Exactly my point.

Most players will buy whatever they think looks cool, and/or fits into their army scheme. If they're lucky, that unit is at least playable, and a not a total waste of points.

Now, if you go through the available options of the Sororitas boxes, what are the chances that you can buy anything, and still have a decent time on the board? Pretty good. The power curve of the Sororitas Codex is actually quite good, and not at all like 8th Ed., and definitely not even close to any previous edition. Calling them 'bad Space Marines' is doing the Faction a significant disservice. However, very similar to Harlequins - but not quite as bad as Harlequins - Sororitas aren't good because of their models. After all, T3 is T3. Sororitas are good because of their Faction and Sub-Faction Abilities, which actually require you to read your Codex more than not-at-all.

That's why Sororitas aren't my first recommendation. Because it requires some thought on how you piece together your army. However, I do rate Sororitas as very newbie friendly, because you can more or less run anything, in a reasonable fashion, and still have a good time. There aren't that many 'trap' choices to make in the Sororitas book...As long as you've actually read it.

In your Codex, what is the ratio of good units to bad units?
Can you pick anything in your Faction off of the shelf, and have a fair time with your mate, who has also picked anything off of the shelf?

How forgiving is your Codex, in what you can and can't buy?
It's very similar to sub-1000 Point games, where you shouldn't make mistakes. But it's baked in at the Codex and list-building level, where you can't make mistakes.

- A great example is Drasius randomly generating a Craftworlds army a few years ago. It almost wasn't possible to build a bad Craftworlds army, no matter what you ran, hence why they were so new-player friendly...And that's the position that Space Marines are [almost] in, now - or perhaps, again.

And that's where Sororitas are - almost.

For the majority of Factions in 9th Ed., up until now, the answer is 'No.' ...Not for Sororitas. Play almost anything you want. They have a ton of good rules that enable almost any kind of army you want to play. And, with the introduction of a unit with Halberds and Shields, I assume that they're going to get even better than they already are, because GW can - and should - push that Sororitas Melee unit, which will encourage new players - that play Sororitas - to buy that unit.

[Fergie0044]

In your Codex, what is the ratio of good units to bad units?
Can you pick anything in your Faction off of the shelf, and have a fair time with your mate, who has also picked anything off of the shelf?

I'd argue Death Guard are in a similar position. The internal balance of the codex is quite good with only a handful of dud units (cultists, land raiders and predators for sure. Maybe the defiler and helbrute?). There are optimal choices in the codex, which you can see with the tournament lists mostly comprised of poxwalkers, terminators and plagueburst crawlers, but if your goal is to have a "fair time with your mate" its hard to go wrong with most of the codex.

Couple this with a generally forgiving play style and very forgiving paint scheme, I'd say DG are one of the best beginner friendly armies out there, beside loyalist marines. Sadly they're now being let down by the awful Combat Patrol box. Instead folks should pick up the Dark Imperium half on ebay, which is currently going for £40-60 here in the UK.