Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

[Cheesegear]

I'd argue Death Guard are in a similar position. The internal balance of the codex is quite good with only a handful of dud units...

Why argue when we agree?

What I Recommend:
- Space Marines
- Necrons
- Death Guard
[...]
- Custodes
- Sororitas
...In exactly that order. If you see a pattern in my recommendation...Yep.

[Forum Explorer]

I'd argue Death Guard are in a similar position. The internal balance of the codex is quite good with only a handful of dud units (cultists, land raiders and predators for sure. Maybe the defiler and helbrute?). There are optimal choices in the codex, which you can see with the tournament lists mostly comprised of poxwalkers, terminators and plagueburst crawlers, but if your goal is to have a "fair time with your mate" its hard to go wrong with most of the codex.

Couple this with a generally forgiving play style and very forgiving paint scheme, I'd say DG are one of the best beginner friendly armies out there, beside loyalist marines. Sadly they're now being let down by the awful Combat Patrol box. Instead folks should pick up the Dark Imperium half on ebay, which is currently going for £40-60 here in the UK.

I'm thinking Death Guard are going to need to start picking up Blighthaulers and Plague Drones to counter Dark Eldar. I'm not sure how those units perform against Marines, but I think they'd do fine. But it does mean less Terminators and Poxwalkers to play with.

[Renegade Paladin]

Tempted to take this when I get back to tournaments just for laughs (and to screw with Dark Eldar), but probably won't.

Spoiler: IT IS THE BANEBLAAAAADE!

Show

++ Super-Heavy Detachment -6CP (Imperium - Imperial Guard) [92 PL, 6CP, 1,670pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost [-6CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ Lord of War +

Baneblade [30 PL, 550pts]
. Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon
. Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon

Baneblade [30 PL, 550pts]
. Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon
. Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon

Shadowsword [32 PL, 570pts]
. Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon
. Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Imperial Guard) [19 PL, 330pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost

Regimental Doctrine: 55th Kappic Eagles

+ HQ +

Lord Commissar [3 PL, 40pts]: Bolt pistol, Power sword

Tempestor Prime [3 PL, 40pts]: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol, Warlord

+ Troops +

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 65pts]
. 2x Scion: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 65pts]
. 2x Scion: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

+ Flyer +

Valkyries [7 PL, 120pts]
. Valkyrie: 2x Multiple Rocket Pods, Multi-laser

++ Total: [111 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] ++

The list presents no infantry targets until I want it to, and everything there is to hit is either flying or T8, W26, and good luck torrenting that down with a Succubus. It's still a hilariously bad idea, though.

[Silvaria]

Tempted to take this when I get back to tournaments just for laughs (and to screw with Dark Eldar), but probably won't.

Spoiler: IT IS THE BANEBLAAAAADE!

Show

++ Super-Heavy Detachment -6CP (Imperium - Imperial Guard) [92 PL, 6CP, 1,670pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost [-6CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ Lord of War +

Baneblade [30 PL, 550pts]
. Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon
. Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon

Baneblade [30 PL, 550pts]
. Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon
. Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon

Shadowsword [32 PL, 570pts]
. Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon
. Lascannon & Twin Heavy Bolter Sponson: Lascannon

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Imperial Guard) [19 PL, 330pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost

Regimental Doctrine: 55th Kappic Eagles

+ HQ +

Lord Commissar [3 PL, 40pts]: Bolt pistol, Power sword

Tempestor Prime [3 PL, 40pts]: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol, Warlord

+ Troops +

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 65pts]
. 2x Scion: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 65pts]
. 2x Scion: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol

+ Flyer +

Valkyries [7 PL, 120pts]
. Valkyrie: 2x Multiple Rocket Pods, Multi-laser

++ Total: [111 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] ++

The list presents no infantry targets until I want it to, and everything there is to hit is either flying or T8, W26, and good luck torrenting that down with a Succubus. It's still a hilariously bad idea, though.

They have Dark Lances though

[Fable Wright]

They have Dark Lances though

There's only so many Dark Lances though. Six Dark Lances, even with all three hitting, three get to wound, for fifteen damage average. Not enough to pop a single Baneblade, and there's going to be a lot fewer Dark Lances the turn after.

[Wraith]

Day 2 of Warhammer Fest 2021 is 40k Day. Almost exclusively Sisters of Battle, along with a War Zone expansion book and table-top scenery set to go with it.

The SoB stuff is all stuff we have seen before, with a couple of new things added.

Morvehn Val, the Abbess Sanctorum of the Adeptus Sororitas.
She's also a High Lord of Terra, wears an Artificer-Paragon-Warsuit, and is so super special that she's armed with a Custodes Spear. I'm not going to say anything else about this, simply because I play Grey Knights and would happily kill any of you for a Lord of War special character in a Dreadknight suit.....

Aestred Thurga and Agathae Dola
The Cannonness with the Auto-Tapestry we saw last week. She's a named character who has a 1-use (?) aura that buffs everything around her at a critical point. She's also part of a duo, though what her buddy does is yet to be determined.

Dogmata
A lieutenant/Chaplain, essentially. Carries a Power Maul (or Thunder Hammer equivalent?) and probably does stuff to friendly models' morale, according to the lore around her.

Palatine
From the Piety & Pain box, an HQ choice who will be available separately for the first time. A repackaged re-release really, nothing to see here.

Celestian Sacrosans
The SoB "Bladeguard" we saw last week, but with maces instead of swords. They have Heroic Intervention as one of their abilities, so they're more like Honour Guard in practice?

Paragon Warsuits
Despite appearing spindly like Penitent Engines, they're compared in the blurb to be more like Dreadnoughts - at least, in terms of their armaments. Be interesting on which side they fall mechanically - one-per-slot Dreadnaughts vs something less tanky, like Sentinels.

Castigator
The tank - a Predator with a battle cannon. As a Black Templar player I appreciate the baroque decoration, but... it's just a Predator.

War Zone: Charadon
At first I read it as 'Carcharodon' and was going to get all angry because it doesn't feature Space Sharks, but I managed to catch myself first. It's the same Mechanicus-factory-style scenery that we've seen before, just repacked into one big box. Handy, but I feel like if you wanted it then you'd already have it from the 3-4 other boxes in which it has appeared.

All in all, it mostly looks really cool, let's just hope the rules do them justice.

[hamishspence]

Castigator
The tank - a Predator with a battle cannon. As a Black Templar player I appreciate the baroque decoration, but... it's just a Predator.

The hull-mounted weapon makes it a little more like a Leman Russ (which suits the battle cannon, as well as the twin autocannon - same as the Leman Russ Exterminator variant).

[Wraith]

The hull-mounted weapon makes it a little more like a Leman Russ (which suits the battle cannon, as well as the twin autocannon - same as the Leman Russ Exterminator variant).

It's supposedly based on the Rhino chassis - if that's more than just fluff, it's probably a little more lightly armoured than a Leman Russ? We'll see, I'm sure, but I think they're looking intentionally Space Marine-adjacent rather than stealing from IG as well.

[hamishspence]

Could be. The hull mount and turret weapon, yet still on a Rhino hull. make for an interesting bridge between Marines and Guard - just like the Sisters themselves, with their Marine-grade armour and Guard-grade toughness.

[Fergie0044]

How can the same design team be so right (Celestian Sacresants) and so very very wrong (Paragon Warsuits) at the same time?

I'm not a fan of any of the "lets stick the person in power armour in a BIGGER set of armour" type models, but the SoB version is truly a low point.

[AdmiralCheez]

How can the same design team be so right (Celestian Sacresants) and so very very wrong (Paragon Warsuits) at the same time?

I'm not a fan of any of the "lets stick the person in power armour in a BIGGER set of armour" type models, but the SoB version is truly a low point.

Especially when the bigger armor looks like the regular armor, and it makes the pilot look like a child in a baby harness strapped to the front.

[Lord Torath]

How can the same design team be so right (Celestian Sacresants) and so very very wrong (Paragon Warsuits) at the same time?

I'm not a fan of any of the "lets stick the person in power armour in a BIGGER set of armour" type models, but the SoB version is truly a low point.

Anyone see where the pilot's legs go? Do they need to be amputated to pilot a Paragon?

[Renegade Paladin]

Could be. The hull mount and turret weapon, yet still on a Rhino hull. make for an interesting bridge between Marines and Guard - just like the Sisters themselves, with their Marine-grade armour and Guard-grade toughness.

If it doesn't have a shoot twice mechanic the Russ is still going to be strictly superior. As it should be to anything based on an APC chassis.

[Squark]

Anyone see where the pilot's legs go? Do they need to be amputated to pilot a Paragon?

There's room for them inside the suit. Not enough room to use the movement of the legs to guide the mech the way one would with a dreadknight or Pacific Rim Mecha, though, so the question of how one controls the Paragon's legs remains unanswered.


Hmm... The new Repentia look to have interfaces implanted into them similar to the ones you can see on Wulfen (The only official model I know of showing a full-fledged marine with bare limbs)- Do Battle Sisters get (less-invasive) direct interface implants similar to the black carapace? If so, maybe a Paragon's legs are controlled through a neural interface, the same way a Centurion's arms are.

[Blackhawk748]

Especially when the bigger armor looks like the regular armor, and it makes the pilot look like a child in a baby harness strapped to the front.

Wow. Like, I know we all made jokes about the Grey Knight Baby Carrier when the Dread Knight came out, but dear lord does the SoB one look like a freaking baby carrier. It's like a Dreadknight and an Armiger had a baby, and it got whooped by the Stupid Design Stick.

Ya, I prefer my Pen Engines, cuz at least the pilot being horribly exposed is on purpose.

[Saambell]

Looking at the Sisters battle suits, they very much strike me as cribbing on the Armed Suits from Appleseed and Ghost in the Shell. Including the whole "pilot sits partly hanging out the front" bit, though they were at least a little more in then that. And had helmets.

[Forum Explorer]

Looking at the Sisters battle suits, they very much strike me as cribbing on the Armed Suits from Appleseed and Ghost in the Shell. Including the whole "pilot sits partly hanging out the front" bit, though they were at least a little more in then that. And had helmets.

It looks like all the new Sister models have helmet variants.

[Wraith]

Looking at the Sisters battle suits, they very much strike me as cribbing on the Armed Suits from Appleseed and Ghost in the Shell. Including the whole "pilot sits partly hanging out the front" bit, though they were at least a little more in then that. And had helmets.

I kind of wish it was the other way around - Space Marines inside their Dreadknight, SoB's hanging out the front.

On the one hand it keeps the aesthetic similar to the Centurion armour with the Marines completely encased inside both suits and non-Astartes humans having to use a more traditional/less invasive way of controlling their suits from a "pilot seat".
And on the other, I want to see an SoB mecha-suit that pays homage to the Power Loader from the Aliens movie, where Lt. Ripley was visible inside the frame and still kicked a huge amount of butt. 40k would benefit a lot from having more references to strong women protagonists in general, let alone in it's female-only faction.

[Saambell]

I kind of wish it was the other way around - Space Marines inside their Dreadknight, SoB's hanging out the front.

On the one hand it keeps the aesthetic similar to the Centurion armour with the Marines completely encased inside both suits and non-Astartes humans having to use a more traditional/less invasive way of controlling their suits from a "pilot seat".
And on the other, I want to see an SoB mecha-suit that pays homage to the Power Loader from the Aliens movie, where Lt. Ripley was visible inside the frame and still kicked a huge amount of butt. 40k would benefit a lot from having more references to strong women protagonists in general, let alone in it's female-only faction.

Funny, the whole powerloader thing is exactly what I thought of when I saw the Invictor warsuit. Sure, its far more bulky, but the metal frame over the front with the exposed pilot just made me think of the powerloader. And the pushback to its design kind of shows why a more clear powerloader based model would not work, as people would constantly complain about its defining feature. Meanwhile the humble Guard Scout Sentinel has had the frame top for years and barely anyone complained about its design.

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

Funny, the whole powerloader thing is exactly what I thought of when I saw the Invictor warsuit. Sure, its far more bulky, but the metal frame over the front with the exposed pilot just made me think of the powerloader. And the pushback to its design kind of shows why a more clear powerloader based model would not work, as people would constantly complain about its defining feature. Meanwhile the humble Guard Scout Sentinel has had the frame top for years and barely anyone complained about its design.

I think the difference is that the Scout Sentinel is still armoured from the front other than the window, and the open cockpit is raised high above most sightlines, whereas the Invictor is open from the front and is not as raised. Now, the marine's armour inside the Invictor is just as good armour as even the Armoured Sentinal (3+). So ultimately the difference is inconsequential. But that perspective remains.

[Adrastos42]

For what it's worth, Forge World did actually do a sentinel power loader at one point, with exactly the two big servo-arms you'd expect. Pretty sure it was literally called the sentinel power loader as well.

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

For what it's worth, Forge World did actually do a sentinel power loader at one point, with exactly the two big servo-arms you'd expect. Pretty sure it was literally called the sentinel power loader as well.

Aye, the Sentinel Power-Lifter, based on the Scout Sentinel. Would have fit very well into a GSC army tbh, I wouldn't be surprised to see a new version of it for them in the future.

[Ratter]

I've noticed a lot of people complaining about Space Marine supremacy, and imo, I just don't see it.

Look, SM have a good winrate, they're a good army, but I do not believe they're the best army in the game and I don't believe it's close.

Dangels are pretty good, probably a little better than Death Guard, who are probably around equal to Harlequins, but all are worse than Sororitas.

If I had to rank armies right now I would rank

1. Sororitas
2. Daemons
3. Dangels
4. Death Guard
5. Harlequins
6. SM
7. Necrons
8. Admech

Not including Drukhari due to recency bias.

[Cheesegear]

Look, SM have a good winrate, they're a good army, but I do not believe they're the best army in the game and I don't believe it's close.

Space Marines are an extremely easy army to build with almost no bad choices. This gives the false assumption that Space Marines are one of the best - if not the best - army in the game because a new player can pick them up, pick almost any unit they want, in almost any combination they want, and win games. Sometimes, very easily.

Bad players, and casual players, who don't spend their time on the internet and looking up what to buy, don't realise that the Sororitas book has a number of trap units in it that are bad. They don't realise that umm akshully, Khorne Daemons are terrible, they don't realise that building a Harlequin army is all about the list-building process, and what Warlord Traits and Psychic Powers you have, will dramatically - dramatically - affect how your Harlequin army performs, and if you choose the wrong one(s), you've already lost the game.

This gives off the impression that Space Marines are better than other Factions, because they simply just play easier. Because they play easier, they win more games easier, especially at the end of the pool where people aren't very good at the game because they don't read their books and they only buy models they like, and paint and play with Factions that they like, and what they like happens to be terrible. Wheras what a Space Marine player likes is usually pretty good.

That's why you see people complain about Space Marines. Because they are seen as a 'no skill' army, and what's worse, they're the poster-children of GW, who get the most love, almost always (except for most of 8th Ed., the best edition, weird that), in such a way that a lot of people are already predisposed to hate Space Marines - and Space Marine players - anyway.

I've noticed a lot of people complaining about Space Marine supremacy,

What you've noticed a fractured player base. And a bias that doesn't line up with reality.
If Space Marines aren't dominating the game with the last...All of the releases...Then why do people think that they do?

[Ratter]

What you've noticed a fractured player base. And a bias that doesn't line up with reality.
If Space Marines aren't dominating the game with the last...All of the releases...Then why do people think that they do?

That was a very well written and thought out response, and basically encapsulates my feelings on SM.

I think after a point, it became a meme, and everybody just kind of bought into it. I have a friend who said, after the Drukhari release "I never thought I'd see the day when SM aren't the best faction in the game."


But... He wasn't even around for IH supremacy. For the majority of his playing experience, SM were a really good faction, but not the best. He fell victim to the meme.

[Forum Explorer]

That was a very well written and thought out response, and basically encapsulates my feelings on SM.

I think after a point, it became a meme, and everybody just kind of bought into it. I have a friend who said, after the Drukhari release "I never thought I'd see the day when SM aren't the best faction in the game."


But... He wasn't even around for IH supremacy. For the majority of his playing experience, SM were a really good faction, but not the best. He fell victim to the meme.

Craftworld Eldar pretty much get the same flack if they are anything but low tier. And even then you'll still get people calling you a cheesemonger for playing the space elves.

[Mystic Muse]

I'm annoyed that the Plastic Thunderhawk GW teased is a freaking Aeronautica Imperialis thing.

[LeSwordfish]

They "teased" it for like, three seconds. It fooled me too.

[Mystic Muse]

They "teased" it for like, three seconds. It fooled me too.

Well, there was also the "Turn back the Clock" video in...2019? where the things they teased about bringjng out were

-Squats being back
-Plastic Sisters of Battle
-Plastic Thunderhawk.

[Ornithologist]

If they are going to troll us that hard on a tiny thunderhawk, I'm going to mount one on a 40k scale base and run it in normal games as a conversion.

Maybe add decorative missles/lasers/bullets in flight to make it the right demensions for a full sized profile.

edit: one day i'll spell words normal. not today.