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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    I'd very much like a 40k equivalent of Warcry. Simple, quick ruleset, and now allows use of existing model collections. Kill Team has the latter bit, but is not as simple as Warcry is, given it still uses a lot of the 40k rules and has Stratagems etc.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    I'd very much like a 40k equivalent of Warcry. Simple, quick ruleset, and now allows use of existing model collections. Kill Team has the latter bit, but is not as simple as Warcry is, given it still uses a lot of the 40k rules and has Stratagems etc.
    Ehh... I'm not saying it couldn't work, but Warcry had a really bad habit of allowing units into the game that had no business being there. Granted, Kill team has its issues there too, but nothing as bad in the initial release as Flesheater Courts and Stormcast Rangers.

    I mean, they built this beautiful, fast paced parkour-style movement system (You can actually do wall jumps!)... And then invalidate it with flying bruisers and walking tanks with machine guns. *headdesk* When the second wave of integrated units included full blown archers as well as factions with tons of flyers... I just gave up on the game.

    Edit: I say this as someone who was unfortunate enough to pick the walking tanks with machine guns as my warband, and proceeded to crush the poor boxed warbands. Granted, this is also the league that lead to me retiring my dice for rolling too many 6's
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Ehh... I'm not saying it couldn't work, but Warcry had a really bad habit of allowing units into the game that had no business being there. Granted, Kill team has its issues there too, but nothing as bad in the initial release as Flesheater Courts and Stormcast Rangers.

    I mean, they built this beautiful, fast paced parkour-style movement system (You can actually do wall jumps!)... And then invalidate it with flying bruisers and walking tanks with machine guns. *headdesk* When the second wave of integrated units included full blown archers as well as factions with tons of flyers... I just gave up on the game.

    Edit: I say this as someone who was unfortunate enough to pick the walking tanks with machine guns as my warband, and proceeded to crush the poor boxed warbands. Granted, this is also the league that lead to me retiring my dice for rolling too many 6's
    This is definitely a big issue. And you're right it's really because they designed the game around light-to-medium-armoured and short-ranged units that were groundbound, and then they threw in the minis that broke that. A 40k version would either have to be broader in design from the start (like by giving the tanks and flyers severe weaknesses from the start) or be limited to its narrower vision (by limiting which models could be used in it, but ultimately if you want every faction to be playable in it that can be an issue).

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    I'd very much like a 40k equivalent of Warcry. Simple, quick ruleset, and now allows use of existing model collections. Kill Team has the latter bit...
    Kill Team is dead simple.
    What ruined it is adding units that had no business being in a small, skirmish game - Elites and Commanders - and now the vast majority of Space Marine Infantry.

    If you play KT out of the Core Rules, you should be fine. But who wants to use 'just' the Core Rules when it's possible to use Grey Knight Paladins! Custodes! Hive Guard!?

    People want to use their toys, and the only way to not let them use their toys, is to design rulesets that don't allow them to use their toys in the first place, that way they're not missing out (e.g; Necromunda).
    You can't miss what you don't have.
    However, once KT:Elites came out and allowed the use of Terminators, why not use Terminators if they're allowed?

    And now the game is broken 'cause GW couldn't keep in their pants 'cause casuals gonna casual about being casual.

    "How cool would it be to run a Terminator or three in Kill Team?"
    It would be **** and ruin the game. Total. ****.
    "Aww...Come on, it would be so much fun!"
    No. No it wouldn't. You just want to be allowed to use Terminators because you have Terminators and you don't like the idea that you can't use them.
    "You don't know me. Don't tell me how to have fun!"

    *GW introduces Elites and Commanders and the game is ruined. But now that the genie is out of the bottle it can't be put back in.*
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    *GW introduces Elites and Commanders and the game is ruined. But now that the genie is out of the bottle it can't be put back in.*
    Just wait for Kill Team 2nd Edition, where all your books are invalidated and you get to buy them again. Sounds like I'm complaining, but I'm kind of not - the first year wherein it's just the MRB will be a golden time where everyone gets to play the game but without the extra nonsense tacked on, and it might actually be fair and/or fun.

    I'm heroically assuming that KT will get another edition which at this point looks like an incredibly remote prospect, of course.

    I don't think anyone has ever said this before, but... I think I miss Shadow War. No nonsense, not extra gimmicks; just tiny games of 40k. Rose-tinted spectacles and all, because I know it was janky and half-baked, but life seemed so much more simple back then.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Just wait for Kill Team 2nd Edition, where all your books are invalidated and you get to buy them again.
    Careful Wraith. With talk like that, you're almost coming close to saying that GW is a business, and not your friend.

    everyone gets to play the game but without the extra nonsense tacked on, and it might actually be fair and/or fun.
    I distinctly remember saying that:
    a) Kill Team is more or less pretty balanced, 'cause anything 'crazy', isn't in the game, and
    b) Kill Team has no meta, because anyone can tailor to anyone.

    That's why Kill Team tournaments, it was a 'lucky dip' of who won, and a lot of stuff came down to tactical choices. Of course, you can tailor, and that's a big part of it. But another part is the alternate activations which doesn't work at scale, but works perfectly when you have only 7-10 models on the board and don't need to roll handfuls of dice - ever. Horde lists started breaking the scale. But, as I said, there's no problem because if your opponent is running a horde, that's likely all they have, they can't run anything else (i.e; Change their Team depending on their opponent). So your 'guesswork' in picking your Team is real simple for that match.
    Hordes were good. But tailoring counters hordes. Almost every time.

    Then Elites...
    Then Commanders...
    WTF happened to the game!? Everything that was good about it is gone, and trying to convince players 'Core Only plz' is like banging your head against a wall. Because they have no reason to play Core Only, and every reason to run their Elite units.

    I'm heroically assuming that KT will get another edition which at this point looks like an incredibly remote prospect, of course.
    It actually doesn't. Pariah Nexus looks like a testbed for some weird stuff that shouldn't be part of the game.
    But, if GW rewrote the game to fit those things in, there'd be no problem.

    I don't think anyone has ever said this before, but... I think I miss Shadow War. No nonsense, not extra gimmicks; just tiny games of 40k.
    What broke Shadow War was that it was designed to played as part of a campaign. And the campaign system was a very, very, very watered down version of Necromunda's. I vaguely recall a photo-comparison between Shadow War and Necromunda (1995). But I might be misremembering. It was definitely a campaign system cribbed from elsewhere (It may have been the 4th Ed. rulebook?).

    But, point is, in that campaign system, was rewards for winning, and disincentives for losing. That can't happen, because everyone needs to be winner. So almost all Shadow War campaigns fizzled because as always with any campaign system - especially including Crusade - it's designed to be won, not to be played.

    Rose-tinted spectacles and all, because I know it was janky and half-baked...
    The more I think about it, its campaign system might've been stolen from Kill Team/6 or 7?
    It wasn't janky or half-baked. It just wasn't what casuals wanted.

    Casuals don't like losing games with models they like.
    They especially don't like losing games that they had no chance of winning in the first place.
    They especially don't like being punished for losing a game that they had no control over.*
    ...Something, something, Crusade.

    *This is still one of the most jarring things about Perils of the Warp and Plasma-fails. Why are they still in the game? Why are players punished for random failure?** But, as we all know, being punished for failure states is arguably one of the best things about Blood Bowl. But Blood Bowl is hardcore. C'est la vie.

    **I could rail about RPGs and 'critical miss tables' for paragraphs.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    What broke Shadow War was that it was designed to played as part of a campaign. And the campaign system was a very, very, very watered down version of Necromunda's. I vaguely recall a photo-comparison between Shadow War and Necromunda (1995). But I might be misremembering. It was definitely a campaign system cribbed from elsewhere (It may have been the 4th Ed. rulebook?).

    But, point is, in that campaign system, was rewards for winning, and disincentives for losing. That can't happen, because everyone needs to be winner. So almost all Shadow War campaigns fizzled because as always with any campaign system - especially including Crusade - it's designed to be won, not to be played.



    The more I think about it, its campaign system might've been stolen from Kill Team/6 or 7?
    It wasn't janky or half-baked. It just wasn't what casuals wanted.

    Casuals don't like losing games with models they like.
    They especially don't like losing games that they had no chance of winning in the first place.
    They especially don't like being punished for losing a game that they had no control over.*
    ...Something, something, Crusade.

    *This is still one of the most jarring things about Perils of the Warp and Plasma-fails. Why are they still in the game? Why are players punished for random failure?** But, as we all know, being punished for failure states is arguably one of the best things about Blood Bowl. But Blood Bowl is hardcore. C'est la vie.

    **I could rail about RPGs and 'critical miss tables' for paragraphs.
    GW has learned a little here with Necromunda, at least, as the campaigns have a fair number of rubber banding mechanics available to arbitrators (Organizers/Game Masters). Although a couple of the big ones are in white dwarfs, and the underdog cards had a very limited print run
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    GW has learned a little here with Necromunda, at least, as the campaigns have a fair number of rubber banding mechanics available to arbitrators (Organizers/Game Masters). Although a couple of the big ones are in white dwarfs, and the underdog cards had a very limited print run
    But if I recall, Necromunda (2017) has rubber-band mechanics, because Necromunda (1995) had rubber-band mechanics.
    The same way that Mordheim did.
    The same way that Blood Bowl does.

    My question is always how far does that rubber band stretch?
    In Blood Bowl, if your team is junk, filling it with Loners doesn't really make up the difference. Staking your game with re-rolls doesn't really make a difference because you can only re-roll once per turn and sometimes you turn just Goes Well so you don't even need the re-rolls (also because all the best Skills on Players give you free re-rolls anyway [e.g; Dodge]). Not if the difference between the Teams is in the few hundred-thousands. "Oh, you bought a Star Player with your rubber band?", well my Rank 3 player just knocked them the **** out on Turn 2. What else you got?

    Similarly, the rubber band in Crusade, is extra Command Points. But you still can't use the same Stratagem twice, and, a lot of the Stratagems you don't use often, are usually keyed to units, that you don't use. Extra CPs, doesn't actually help you all that much, because you should already be using all the CPs you already have, on all the Stratagems you already use. Like, 1-2 extra CPs helps. But when you're looking at 5+ extra CPs? What the **** are you gonna do with those!? Also remembering that in order to even get those 5+ CPs, your opponent has ~5 Ranks worth of stuff on the board over what you have. Are CPs-you-can't-use gonna make up the difference? Of course not. The rubber band snaps at 2 CPs (IMO).
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    The World's Tiniest FAQ came out today for Codex: Dark Angels.

    Rites of Initiation now apply to both Repulsors and Repulsor Executioners (....yay?)

    'The Hunt' Stratagem can only be used once; That's fair, there was some wonkiness being employed and which now means that Ravenwing shouldn't stroll across the field in Turn 1.

    Cup of Retribution (Chaplain-only relic) gets a tiny change to syntax to make it fall in line with other comparable aura abilities.

    Deathwing/Ravenwing Apothecaries' aura is only 3" and not 6", as we all expected it should be.

    Seems fine. Need to read my book more thoroughly, but I'm tentatively taking this as a win because they're all sensible changes and I can't think of anything that has been egregiously missed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear
    It wasn't janky or half-baked. It just wasn't what casuals wanted.
    It absolutely was all 3, in many places. And I say that as an oft-time proponent of jankiness - just enough makes things interesting. See also: Blood Bowl and Mordheim.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    The World's Tiniest FAQ came out today for Codex: Dark Angels.
    [...]
    Seems fine. Need to read my book more thoroughly, but I'm tentatively taking this as a win because they're all sensible changes and I can't think of anything that has been egregiously missed.
    *Checks to see if the 1st Company or 2nd Company Abilities have been nerfed.*
    Nope.
    Dark Angels still amazing. Carry on.

    [Shadow War] absolutely was [janky, half-baked and casual-unfriendly] in many places. And I say that as an oft-time proponent of jankiness - just enough makes things interesting. See also: Blood Bowl and Mordheim.
    You're going to make me read that rulebook that I haven't even touched in 3 years, aren't you?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegera
    You're going to make me read that rulebook that I haven't even touched in 3 years, aren't you?
    Yes. *pulls out handgun* I'm sorry, CG; I didn't want it to come to this, but you left me no choice.

    Seriously though, don't worry about it. I fondly remember Shadow War as being the GOOD kind of jank and I'm in no rush to be proved wrong.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    The issue with making campaign systems is that you need out-of-system progress to avoid the need for rubber banding. Making any sort of progress or advantage leads inevitably to snowballing, because people who win dont just win because of a tiny advantage, they win because they invest more time / money or just commit more.

    Said people are better at building a roster. At making key choices during the game. At choosing upgrades. So, ANY rubber band mechanic will achieve going back to step 1 at best, which then ends with the same guy winning anyways because of the fundamental dif. in skill.

    Campaign maps, narrative advancement, faction objectives (so the better / more invested players have a reason to boost their faction rookies) etc. are imho better ways to give players the feeling of accomplishment and advances than tacking extra rules on models or making the winners better at winning. The meta-resource bit from Shadow War was, imho, a cool compromise: You need these to win, but you can also burn your chances to get a stronger model for a while (thats how it worked, right?) but cant do both.

    The other way would be a king-of-the-hill style thing where winners keep facing winners and losers get eliminated; shorter, faster, focused on being brutal and built around that. The issue is with systems waffling between both and not embracing the strength of either paradigm due to wanting to be inclusive and everything for everyone.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Aye, I feel a "campaign" can only function as a "campaign" and not a "snowballing tournament" if winning advances the NARRATIVE but doesn't advance the ARMY. My favourite way is having a win or loss determine what the next mission is, where the missions themselves can be asymmetric. For example, if you lose a major straight-up slugfest, then the next game you might be tasked to defend a couple of "road" objectives in your deployment and prevent "linebreaker" as a "rearguard defends the retreat" game.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwynchan'rGwyll View Post
    Aye, I feel a "campaign" can only function as a "campaign" and not a "snowballing tournament" if winning advances the NARRATIVE but doesn't advance the ARMY.
    In that case play a regular game of 40K, and write battle reports, and give your characters names as you see fit.
    ...Wait. I already do that. No campaign required.

    My favourite way is having a win or loss determine what the next mission is, where the missions themselves can be asymmetric.
    You've done that?
    How did you convince the player who the mission was asymmetrical against to play the Mission?
    Or was it assymetrical in the sense that each player is forced to play a certain way, to match their win conditions of the next Mission, and the Objectives are weighted the same for each player?

    This is how Sanctus Reach did it. Each Mission Win/Loss gave (slightly) different win conditions or an ability for the next Mission.
    However, each Mission was basically unplayable with the army you used in the previous Mission because the victory conditions kept changing. WYSIWYG rules will kill a campaign like that.

    For example, if you lose a major straight-up slugfest, then the next game you might be tasked to defend a couple of "road" objectives in your deployment and prevent "linebreaker" as a "rearguard defends the retreat" game.
    So you're forced to update your collection every few weeks in order to play in a Mission that you don't yet know you're playing?
    Or are you just assuming that players already have large collections and can switch up their armies as the Missions change?

    The major problems of any campaign are simple:
    1. How do players upgrade their armies, and at what pace? If players are not upgrading their armies, what's their incentive to play the campaign, when they could just have regular games with their friends - rather than pre-selected opponents - and then not upgrade their army anyway? And build their collection as fast - or as slow - as they want. No campaign needed.
    If players are not upgrading their armies - however they do it - what's even the incentive to play in the campaign? Fanfiction points?

    2. How do you keep losers inside the campaign, and what incentive do they have to keep playing losing games, when they could instead play regular games with their friends and not pre-selected/forced opponents and maybe win a game or two for once against players more on their skill/army level?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    In that case play a regular game of 40K, and write battle reports, and give your characters names as you see fit.
    ...Wait. I already do that. No campaign required.
    Not quite. Because it involves other people and since they were part of it makes them care more than fanboying over your army will. Relevance is important; if you split it by faction (Imperium / Chaos / Xenos) then the inter-faction rivalry makes friends, creates interesting trash talk and keeps people engaged. Totally different things.

    You've done that?
    How did you convince the player who the mission was asymmetrical against to play the Mission?
    His team makes him.

    Or was it assymetrical in the sense that each player is forced to play a certain way, to match their win conditions of the next Mission, and the Objectives are weighted the same for each player?
    You've got to be more creative with mission design if you want to use them as the driving force. Assymetric doesn't mean biased, just having separated wincons. They might screw your faction but thats as far as bias go.

    This is how Sanctus Reach did it. Each Mission Win/Loss gave (slightly) different win conditions or an ability for the next Mission.
    However, each Mission was basically unplayable with the army you used in the previous Mission because the victory conditions kept changing. WYSIWYG rules will kill a campaign like that.
    WYSIWYG is a trash rule that deserves to die in a fire. Its pure gatekeeping by people who might be able to name every marine weapon at most and cant tell one tyranid model from another. Also, not letting you reset your roster would be dumb, and yes Mission design has to account for what your collection is supposed to be at this point, but thats also why you bake escalating points into the system: you know from the get go you'll have to get new stuff, just pace yourself and plan ahead. Also, its done in teams so broke players can loan models off other guys in their faction. Once again, if you're not an ass about the IW guy fielding clearly Black Legion oblits his buddy loaned him, it works fine.



    So you're forced to update your collection every few weeks in order to play in a Mission that you don't yet know you're playing?
    Or are you just assuming that players already have large collections and can switch up their armies as the Missions change?
    Some will, some wont. Campaigns are community efforts, building the concept of sharing into teams is pivotal; also, ideally you'd post Missions on monday and set your regular play time for the weekend, so you have days to get ready; also make each phase last a couple of weeks so people have time to catch up. There is absolutely the need for centralized coordination, be it the store or an independent TO, none of this works from the players alone.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Some will, some wont. Campaigns are community efforts, building the concept of sharing into teams is pivotal
    Campaigns require commitment.
    Something that casuals - by their definition - don't have.

    That's why my meta doesn't do them anymore. We only do tournaments, which we strongly encourage casuals to come to.

    A tournament is one day, maybe two. You can schedule that, right? We don't need an ironclad commitment from you that forces you to play one game a week for the next two months.
    If you lose the first game, you'll be sent to the bottom tables where the rest of the tournament you'll be playing games with other people more appropriate to your army/skill level. You don't even have to think about the top tables, because you wont even be up there anyway. If you think about a tournament as "I'm going to play 3, 4, or even 5 games in a day or weekend." then that's all it is. If you want to smash out a bunch of 40K at once, and then not think about it at all for another three months, then tournaments are for you!

    (As I've mentioned previously, in order to get more people in the door, our meta regularly hosts doubles-tournaments. So there's a Team/Friend aspect to it, too.)
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Campaigns require commitment.
    Something that casuals - by their definition - don't have.
    Of course. But that depends on how your campaign is structured. Endlessly farmable objectives are trash, it edges out those who cant commit the time to spam games. It's all about how you work towards your goal.

    Anyways, what Campaigns generate is engagement. Even if they only show up for a couple of games / phases, they're now invested. THEIR team won / slot / advanced, its no longer some random pointless things that happened between two guys, its MY ALLY's hero who held the line against the ENEMY and they can join in on the trash talk, strategizing, commentary on the narrative, faux outrage at favoritism, whining about clear mission imbalance, etc.

    Slowly, you give the casuals a reason to decasual a bit. It's a trap, and you have to be careful how to spring it. Shoot down excuses / ease them up and assuage their misgivings, and make more players out of casual board gamers and tangentially interested.

    Thats why we kept ZM missions in our campaign. To get the KT players feeling like they were contributing to the overall war effort. It didn't matter they didnt have vehicles or whatever, their boxes of intercessors and ETB primaries could shine in that mode, and they can feel part of the whole thing :D

    That's why my meta doesn't do them anymore. We only do tournaments, which we strongly encourage casuals to come to.
    Different things work for different crowds (:

    (As I've mentioned previously, in order to get more people in the door, our meta regularly hosts doubles-tournaments. So there's a Team/Friend aspect to it, too.)
    Anecdote time! Last doubles tournament before Covid me and my partner lost the finals to a random roll determining points from an objective. We actually tied, but due to secondaries, so we lost the tiebreaker. No drama, the other team took a "lost" match after we almost wiped them out and scratched out a win like pros. Anyways, after the match ends I take my Hemlock, walk to the other side of the table and say "Thank you. I couldn't have reached this far without your help". You see, the Hemlock that got me there, the Hemlock that almost cost them their chance to win? It was my opponent's, he lent it to me at the start of the tournament. For all the 'toxic' and 'WAAC' impression people here have of our community, they are amazing people and I cant think of a single thing I'd change about them.

    That tournament my army was amazing. Half my rangers were a gift from a friend who's father used to play Eldar (he plays IF), he doesnt use them so he gifted me Dire Avengers and rangers. The other 5 were ojoumaru recasts made the week before the tournament by another friend because the shipment where mine were was held in customs and they were afraid I wasn't gonna get them ready in time. A third friend who does commissions stayed up the night prior assembling and painting my Dark Reapers (in the same shipment, we got it cleared late friday, picked it up on saturday, tournament was on sunday). My teammate gave me my Crimson Hunter, because he wasn't using his. I got there at 6:00 a.m. to finish assembling Guardians and set up the tables and as people arrived they started picking up Guardians and building them while I was setting terrain and marking deployment zones with masking tape. All so I could play, even though they knew my team was likely to stomp them should we meet.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    My group tried to come up with a homebrew campaign system back when we played Warmachine. It had some cool ideas that seemed to work pretty well. Obviously it's a different game, but I think some of the broader concepts would still apply. I don't know if there are any 40k campaign rules that do similar, but this essentially what we did:

    - Battles have different objectives depending on the scenario. I can't remember exactly how it worked, but it had something to do with taking previous battle outcomes into consideration. Like, if Player 1 successfully won a wilderness skirmish battle, then on the next mission they would be attacking a fort held by Player 2, because they got the location from winning that battle. Stuff like that.
    - Some scenarios were simple, like fight the other team and defeat them. Others had objectives, like hold a defensive position for 3 turns, or escort a caravan from one side of the board to the other and have X number of wagons survive. The opposing team had appropriately reversed objectives, for instance take the enemy position within 3 turns or destroy the caravan.
    - All players involved in a battle get X amount of points for participating; winners get a little extra, but not enough to unbalance it. These points are spent between battles to buy reinforcements or replenish wounded units.
    - Units that survived a battle with less than 50% casualties can get a small stat boost for "combat veteran experience." If they lose more than that in a battle, they don't get a bonus. If the unit is wiped out entirely, they lose all the bonuses they had and start out again as fresh recruits. Vehicles (or warjacks in Warmachine's case) didn't get bonuses because they were soulless robots that couldn't learn.
    - Units can withdraw from a battle at any time by reaching the edge of the board in their deployment zone. This can be helpful if the battle is going poorly and you want to preserve bonuses or not have to spend points rebuying a unit. Likewise, a player can simply surrender and end the battle there, preserving their remaining forces and taking the loss.
    - Units sit out the next battle for fatigue. They can be redeployed immediately, but suffer a stat penalty for doing so. So, you want to pick your teams carefully for each fight, so that you always have what you want available when you need it.
    - We never got to this point, but in theory after a certain amount of battles and spending points on list building, it would end in a huge battle where all forces were committed at once.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Has anyone tried running/playing in narrative events? It’s a thing I’m quite keen to try out: run over a day or two like a tournament, but have campaign elements through the course of the event. So you’re not trying to have a campaign running over weeks or months with the resulting time commitment, but get to have narrative and progression game to game, rather than the focus being just on who ends up on top.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Has anyone tried running/playing in narrative events? It’s a thing I’m quite keen to try out: run over a day or two like a tournament, but have campaign elements through the course of the event. So you’re not trying to have a campaign running over weeks or months with the resulting time commitment, but get to have narrative and progression game to game, rather than the focus being just on who ends up on top.
    Playing continuously is stressful and distracting. There would be little attention paid to any narrative, and most on moving minis, setting and re-setting tables, learning the new mission as you're dropped into it, etc. It doesnt seem to fit with the idea of narrative games in my opinion.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Has anyone tried running/playing in narrative events? It’s a thing I’m quite keen to try out: run over a day or two like a tournament, but have campaign elements through the course of the event. So you’re not trying to have a campaign running over weeks or months with the resulting time commitment, but get to have narrative and progression game to game, rather than the focus being just on who ends up on top.
    Goonhammer article on their Annual Necromunda weekender

    Condensing that article and adding some my own thoughts... Weekend events will require a lot of preparation time, and a fair bit of buy-in from players. Experience with the system, or at least sister systems would also be a big plus.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Has anyone tried running/playing in narrative events?
    The Missions were sent out in advance.

    We were allowed to bring a Roster of 1850 Points, using 1500 per game. (This was in 7th Ed., so your ability to build a list wasn't also tied to a second Command Point system. Which is a problem with setting up Rosters in 8th Ed. and 9th. There is a second resource that you have to account for). Essentially we had room to switch out one, two, maybe three units, tops. ~350 Points isn't a lot of wiggle room, but it is some. Basically it was enough room to turn Heavy Bolters into Lascannons and back again.

    The week before the event was to take place, it was made clear that there would be no prizes, and that it was narrative only. Attendance and interest dropped off a cliff.

    Without enough players to make a meaningful 'event', the whole thing was scrapped, and the event was re-jiggered into a 'Just Come To Play 40K' Day, as many or few games as you can or want to play. Everyone will be there. So you're guaranteed a game or three. We had a venue so there's no waiting for tables, and there's definitely no 'booking' tables (****ing COVID).

    Just come to play 40K, at a time when everyone else will be in the same place, also playing 40K.
    No 'event' - it's cancelled.
    No 'tournament' - you wouldn't come anyway.
    No 'narrative' - you're not interested in it.

    The only thing that matters is the game. That's all that's ever mattered. I'm not sure how many games were played during the day. But attendance was maximum.

    It’s a thing I’m quite keen to try out: run over a day or two like a tournament, but have campaign elements through the course of the event.
    I've been to several events where people can submit post hoc battle reports to make it feel like the tournament had a narrative.
    But it's post event, definitely not pre- or during.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The Missions were sent out in advance.

    We were allowed to bring a Roster of 1850 Points, using 1500 per game. (This was in 7th Ed., so your ability to build a list wasn't also tied to a second Command Point system. Which is a problem with setting up Rosters in 8th Ed. and 9th. There is a second resource that you have to account for). Essentially we had room to switch out one, two, maybe three units, tops. ~350 Points isn't a lot of wiggle room, but it is some. Basically it was enough room to turn Heavy Bolters into Lascannons and back again.

    The week before the event was to take place, it was made clear that there would be no prizes, and that it was narrative only. Attendance and interest dropped off a cliff.

    Without enough players to make a meaningful 'event', the whole thing was scrapped, and the event was re-jiggered into a 'Just Come To Play 40K' Day, as many or few games as you can or want to play. Everyone will be there. So you're guaranteed a game or three. We had a venue so there's no waiting for tables, and there's definitely no 'booking' tables (****ing COVID).

    Just come to play 40K, at a time when everyone else will be in the same place, also playing 40K.
    No 'event' - it's cancelled.
    No 'tournament' - you wouldn't come anyway.
    No 'narrative' - you're not interested in it.

    The only thing that matters is the game. That's all that's ever mattered. I'm not sure how many games were played during the day. But attendance was maximum
    I'm going to re-iterate now that Cheasegear has provided an example- Player Buy-in (time and mental, not monetary) is crucial. People need to know what they're getting into and feel at least optimistic if not excited about the narrative.

    In addition to that initial buy-in, though, you need to keep people engaged. And that's a lot of prep work, combined with improvisation. Unless you just go with shallow theme weeks ("This week everyone fights in a swamp!" "Wow, a lot of Chaos players did really well last week. Better watch out for hostile Demons!"), you're going to have to work your butt off to tie everything together- If players feel the story doesn't relate to them, they're going to stop caring fast. Especially in 40k, since factions can have such disparate goals, and may not be evenly represented. Actually... what you could do is give each player/faction a Dawn of War: Dark Crusade/Soulstorm/Retribution style mini-arc with speciric goals to work toward, so you can tie the players' performance to their personal story.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Kill Team is dead simple.
    What ruined it is adding units that had no business being in a small, skirmish game - Elites and Commanders - and now the vast majority of Space Marine Infantry.

    If you play KT out of the Core Rules, you should be fine. But who wants to use 'just' the Core Rules when it's possible to use Grey Knight Paladins! Custodes! Hive Guard!?

    People want to use their toys, and the only way to not let them use their toys, is to design rulesets that don't allow them to use their toys in the first place, that way they're not missing out (e.g; Necromunda).
    You can't miss what you don't have.
    However, once KT:Elites came out and allowed the use of Terminators, why not use Terminators if they're allowed?

    And now the game is broken 'cause GW couldn't keep in their pants 'cause casuals gonna casual about being casual.

    "How cool would it be to run a Terminator or three in Kill Team?"
    It would be **** and ruin the game. Total. ****.
    "Aww...Come on, it would be so much fun!"
    No. No it wouldn't. You just want to be allowed to use Terminators because you have Terminators and you don't like the idea that you can't use them.
    "You don't know me. Don't tell me how to have fun!"

    *GW introduces Elites and Commanders and the game is ruined. But now that the genie is out of the bottle it can't be put back in.*
    It amazes me how you are SO CONFIDENT about what is broken in a game you don't play, and unsurprised how you are so consistently wrong.

    Best faction in Kill team is still Genestealer Cults straight from the core rules, and it's not even close.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm View Post
    It amazes me how you are SO CONFIDENT about what is broken in a game you don't play, and unsurprised how you are so consistently wrong.

    Best faction in Kill team is still Genestealer Cults straight from the core rules, and it's not even close.
    *squints*


    You're going to have to elaborate on that, because that does not remotely match any data I've seen.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    *squints*


    You're going to have to elaborate on that, because that does not remotely match any data I've seen.
    Ya, I'm gonna want an explanation as well, because I find it difficult to belive that GSC are the top of much of anything.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    The World's Tiniest FAQ came out today for Codex: Dark Angels.

    Rites of Initiation now apply to both Repulsors and Repulsor Executioners (....yay?)

    'The Hunt' Stratagem can only be used once; That's fair, there was some wonkiness being employed and which now means that Ravenwing shouldn't stroll across the field in Turn 1.

    Cup of Retribution (Chaplain-only relic) gets a tiny change to syntax to make it fall in line with other comparable aura abilities.

    Deathwing/Ravenwing Apothecaries' aura is only 3" and not 6", as we all expected it should be.

    Seems fine. Need to read my book more thoroughly, but I'm tentatively taking this as a win because they're all sensible changes and I can't think of anything that has been egregiously missed.
    They didn't answer the question of 'can you drive in circles to get the minimum distance needed for a stratagem/ability?'

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    WYSIWYG is a trash rule that deserves to die in a fire. Its pure gatekeeping by people who might be able to name every marine weapon at most and cant tell one tyranid model from another. Also, not letting you reset your roster would be dumb, and yes Mission design has to account for what your collection is supposed to be at this point, but thats also why you bake escalating points into the system: you know from the get go you'll have to get new stuff, just pace yourself and plan ahead. Also, its done in teams so broke players can loan models off other guys in their faction. Once again, if you're not an ass about the IW guy fielding clearly Black Legion oblits his buddy loaned him, it works fine.
    Agree, 110%. I admit, I get a fair bit of joy of simply ignoring WYSIWYG with xenos armies because my opponent simply doesn't know what any of my equipment actually looks like.


    On a different note, Tabletop Titans is basically doing an all Drukhari week. Latest one was vs Salamanders.

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    Kabal of the Black Heart Patrol
    HQ
    -Archon, WARLORD
    -Djinn Blade, Ancient Evil
    -Drazhar, Master of Blades
    Troops
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    -Incubi x10
    -Incubi x10
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    -Scourge x5
    -Scourge x5
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    -Raider, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Shock Prow
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    -Raider, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Shock Prow
    -Raider, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Shock Prow

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    -Master Haemonculus
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    Troops
    -Haemoxytes x10
    -Wracks x10

    Cult of Strife Patrol
    HQ
    -Succubus
    -The Triptych Whip
    -Quicksilver Reflexes
    -Adrenalight
    -Succubus
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    -Adrenalight
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    -Wyches x20, agoniser, razor flails x2, shardnet and impaler x2, Hydra Gauntlets x2
    -Adrenalight
    -Bloodbrides x10, Agoniser, Razor Flails, Shardnet and Impaler, Hydra Gauntlets
    -Adrenalight
    -Wyches x10, Agoniser, Razor Flails, Shardnet and Impaler, Hydra Gauntlets
    -Adrenalight


    Spoiler: Salamanders List
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    ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Salamanders) [105 PL, 2,000pts, -2CP] ++

    + Configuration +

    *Chapter Selection*: Salamanders

    Detachment Command Cost

    + HQ +

    Captain on Bike [6 PL, 130pts, -1CP]: Forge Master, Miraculous Constitution, Storm shield, Stratagem: Exemplar of the Promethean Creed, The Salamander's Mantle, Thunder hammer, Warlord

    Lieutenants [4 PL, 75pts]
    . Primaris Lieutenant: Bolt pistol, Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

    Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, 140pts]: Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Litany of Hate

    + Troops +

    Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle
    . 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
    . Intercessor Sergeant

    Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle
    . 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
    . Intercessor Sergeant

    Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle
    . 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
    . Intercessor Sergeant

    Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle
    . 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
    . Intercessor Sergeant

    Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle
    . 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
    . Intercessor Sergeant

    + Elites +

    Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 120pts]: 2x Flamestorm Gauntlets, 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant

    Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 120pts]: 2x Flamestorm Gauntlets, 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant

    Company Veterans [8 PL, 125pts]
    . Company Veteran: Bolt pistol, Flamer
    . Company Veteran: Bolt pistol, Flamer
    . Company Veteran: Bolt pistol, Flamer
    . Company Veteran: Bolt pistol, Flamer
    . Company Veteran Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

    Company Veterans [8 PL, 125pts]
    . Company Veteran: Bolt pistol, Flamer
    . Company Veteran: Bolt pistol, Flamer
    . Company Veteran: Bolt pistol, Flamer
    . Company Veteran: Bolt pistol, Flamer
    . Company Veteran Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter

    Judiciar [5 PL, 85pts]

    Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, 95pts, -1CP]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

    + Heavy Support +

    Eradicator Squad [7 PL, 135pts]: Melta rifle
    . 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol
    . Eradicator Sgt

    Eradicator Squad [7 PL, 135pts]: Melta rifle
    . 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol
    . Eradicator Sgt

    Eradicator Squad [7 PL, 135pts]: Melta rifle
    . 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol
    . Eradicator Sgt

    + Dedicated Transport +

    Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]

    ++ Total: [105 PL, -2CP, 2,000pts] ++


    Link to the game

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    Drukhari tabled the Salamanders. Which is all kinds of surprising. Like, I know that wasn't the absolute most powerful Salamanders list that could be built, but it looks to be a pretty decent one, particularly against an army that has to charge you and has a lot of vehicles. So that does make it seem like Drukhari are in a pretty healthy spot, though they did mess up with the Drukhari rules in multiple spots.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm View Post
    It amazes me how you are SO CONFIDENT about what is broken in a game you don't play, and unsurprised how you are so consistently wrong.
    The ****?
    Kill Team is my favourite game. I play it all the time. It's one of the best things to play now that price hike plus **** economy means that a 20-model 'army' is the most viable way to play anything anymore in Australia. I played two games of it yesterday.

    Best faction in Kill team is still Genestealer Cults straight from the core rules, and it's not even close.
    'One box, one Team' meta, very good.
    'One Team vs. All' meta, also very good.

    '20-man tailor-your-Team-to-your-opponent' the actual rules meta...I'm going to need some arguments. Cult Ambush is a very strong rule. But it's not insurmountable.

    I agree that GSC can function a horde-gatekeeper list;
    The same way that one Plague Marine and 19 Poxwalkers does.
    The same way that 6 Rubrics and 14 Tzaangors does.

    There are definitely Good Teams, and Good Rosters. I'll grant you that. But I'd be very, very, very hesitant to label something Best Faction or Best Team, without some heavy qualifiers, e.g;
    - One box, one Team, and
    - Your Team is Your Team, no tailoring. (Which most often is just 'One Box, One Team' with extra steps)
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    They didn't answer the question of 'can you drive in circles to get the minimum distance needed for a stratagem/ability?'
    I suspect that this would be a Main Rules FAQ rather than a DA-specific one.

    I distinctly remember a previous edition of the MRB had an image that specifically stated you measured the route that the model took, not just the overhead 'radius' to compare where they start and finish their phase, which would suggest that then at least the answer to the question is "yes". Why they took that note out, I don't know; Probably because they simplified the rules for traversing vertical terrain back in 8th and never bothered to check if it was still needed in 9th.
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    Jun 2010
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    Lima, Peru
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    They didn't answer the question of 'can you drive in circles to get the minimum distance needed for a stratagem/ability?'
    Why should they, the answer is obviously yes. Until the make strats say "is X away from starting point" or something, which would screw units that can't ignore terrain and be a flat out nerf.

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