Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

[Brookshw]

A common complaint about GW is it overcharges because ‘producing each sprue only costs pennies’. This is ridiculous, because it utterly ignores everything around it. The concepting, the artwork, the time spent designing a miniature itself. The costs of buying the machine to produce it in the first place. In GW’s case, the stores and staff. They charge a premium certainly, but they could probably only cut the cost by 20-30% before they have to cut on an aspect of the total product offer, assuming they were happy with making no profit. Which they wouldn’t be, because capitalism.

Eh....the manufacturing cost vs. retail price are grossly disproportionate compared to other industries that have similar development costs and processes.when you look at the comparison you can see why GW gets a bad rep.

Its about pop goes the monkey or puppet wars or whomever making piles of GW-alike stuff at 1/10th the price and customers having to justify an ever increasing price gap. The faster / cheaper 3D printing gets, the more smaller companies are going to flood the market with their stuff, and same goes for store owners who want a taste of selling things at manufacturer margins.

Agreed. Downside of the saturated market is that it'll be harder to find people interested in your particular game unless you and some friends decide together you want to pursue it. Once a few dominant survivors emerge it'll be another story.

[druid91]

The customer themselves doesn't need a 3D printer. They need to know someone who does, or have an industrial printer in their area.
A lot of people - especially in Australia - are willing to wait weeks for their product from...Somewhere.

If you can't spend ~1/5th the price, and wait a day or two, something is wrong with you. The idea that GW can run solely on impulse buys is laughable. The idea that GW does run on impulse buys is a horrific business model.



From reports, it takes about a day to setup. The millennial generation is pretty good with computers, so I heard.

Space? Maybe. See friends' house or industrial 3D printer. This is the only argument I can't disprove because it's so subjective.



If you aren't using a 3D printer in some capacity in the next...5 years...I'll be surprised. They're just incredibly useful, and incredibly cheap. Yes, even the industrial ones. As I said, if you are thinking of a 3D printer as just for miniatures, then you don't know what a 3D Printer is for. Like, you should just have one, and stop buying textiles. As I said, the startup capital is...Yes. But once you have it, it starts paying for itself almost immediately - just like any other appliance you have in your house.



Negligible. You even mentioned that anybody who currently works with Forge Word runs that risk right now. You put a warning sticker on the side of the resin, like there already is.

Did you know that if you stick a fork in a toaster you might electrocute yourself? Hmm... Better not buy a toaster. Those are dangerous!

To be clear; GW wont die. Their IP is too valuable for that. Just like Marvel Comics isn't dead. Marvel Comics at this point can't die. Their IP is so valuable that they will be around forever...*Checks for GW's IP consolidation*...Yep. That makes sense. But their business model will have to massively change. It just has to. They can't justify their pricing anymore. Their business is built on gatekeeping people out...That's a business designed to fail.

As I said previously when this came up; When 3D scanning technology is good enough, GW is dead, because people will be able to literally copy without effort. Currently it's just printing, though. Making realistic copies takes a bit of effort but it can be done - and has been. But for casuals that don't play in official tournaments? Make whatever proxy or stand-in you want! Consumer-level confidence is 2-3 years behind what's actually happening, and within the last...Five years?...Even casuals have bought into the fact that they must have GW's products.

Honestly, if space is an issue, Warhammer is probably the wrong hobby given how much space minis take up.

[Blackhawk748]

It’s not about impulse buys, it’s about convenience, being able to go to the store and get one. You’re right people can, and often do, wait, but going to the store is also a part of their shopping model. Particularly for people buying as a gift, or for younger and newer hobbyists.

I'll just let you know I'm a half an hour away from my nearest hobby store, so the 3d Printer taking 18 hours to make my stuff is not a big deal because now I don't have to go anywhere.

Also I've already gotten Hero Forge stuff and it looks amazing, so I am all for more 3d Printing.

[LeSwordfish]

I can't speak for how much impulse buys matter but GW seems to think they do - thats a big part of the reason they have in-person stores in city centres, to get the passing trade.

[LansXero]

I can't speak for how much impulse buys matter but GW seems to think they do - thats a big part of the reason they have in-person stores in city centres, to get the passing trade.

Most stores I know in the US consider a GW store nearby a boon. Their policies and staff are so incompetent that the extra visibility they bring to the hobby ends up snatched by local competition because of how bad they are.

[Dragonus45]

So I've been looking at getting a resin printer myself, photon mono x for anyone who follows these things, and after looking at a lot of the reviews it is impossible to screw up setting it up and as long as you are using files made by people who know better then you and doing some really basic work to check and make sure the model will be stable it is trivial to use. And while it can take a couple hours to make even a single model, you can make more then a few models at once in a batch. The convenience factor is way higher then you think and getting cheaper and cheaper to the point even a broke person like me could consider picking one up. Also it's perfectly safe to have around the house.

[Cheesegear]

I can't speak for how much impulse buys matter but GW seems to think they do - thats a big part of the reason they have in-person stores in city centres, to get the passing trade.

And then they see that an intro game will take ~45 minutes and the starter set is $230, and they walk out. In Australia, that is.

Walk-ins made a lot of sense when the game was cheaper.

Most stores I know in the US consider a GW store nearby a boon...

I will 100% confirm.

My local FLGS had made a killing, non-stop since it's opened less than a year ago. A not insignificant part of my meta no longer goes to the GW store, and we buy all our GW product from the FLGS. Because they actually let us play games with the models we like using 3rd party bits and bases. Proxies - including whole models - are allowed. We can also occasionally swear within reason. The FLGS owner is heavily invested in his hobby and actually knows what he's talking about. So his goal isn't to sell you the most expensive thing on the shelf. His goal is to make any sale he can, and he doesn't have a franchise looking over his shoulder trying to force me into buying products I don't want or need in order to push my ATV higher for his KPIs.

He's looking to buy two - maybe three - 3D printers for the store, so that we can bring our .stls to the store for printing. Like any other paper copy or print shop.

I didn't realise my GW store was so bad until I had an FLGS. Like, I always thought the above was just the price I had to pay in order to have a venue and terrain to paint and play at. 'GW is GW, and that's just what they do. It's cool.' Now I realise that none of that is necessary to make a hobby environment, and never was.

EDIT:
Oh. I do go to my GW. Turns out that there are two different paint ranges for retailers or something. There's something like ~30 paints that only cool guys at GW can have. I don't know, the reason was confusing. I do know that my GW has a wider paint range for sale than my FLGS.

[LansXero]

I didn't realise my GW store was so bad until I had an FLGS.

Bollocks, I've been telling you forever.

Now I realise that none of that is necessary to make a hobby environment, and never was.

Heh thats how I decided to open my store.

Turns out that there are two different paint ranges for retailers or something.

Not at all. But then when you have to buy niche colors in packs of 6 stocking them all isnt entirely viable.

[Forum Explorer]

Most stores I know in the US consider a GW store nearby a boon. Their policies and staff are so incompetent that the extra visibility they bring to the hobby ends up snatched by local competition because of how bad they are.

Holy crap yes. Going from GW to a FLGS was one of the best decisions of my life. It was absolutely amazing in comparison.

[druid91]

And then they see that an intro game will take ~45 minutes and the starter set is $230, and they walk out. In Australia, that is.

Walk-ins made a lot of sense when the game was cheaper.



I will 100% confirm.

My local FLGS had made a killing, non-stop since it's opened less than a year ago. A not insignificant part of my meta no longer goes to the GW store, and we buy all our GW product from the FLGS. Because they actually let us play games with the models we like using 3rd party bits and bases. Proxies - including whole models - are allowed. We can also occasionally swear within reason. The FLGS owner is heavily invested in his hobby and actually knows what he's talking about. So his goal isn't to sell you the most expensive thing on the shelf. His goal is to make any sale he can, and he doesn't have a franchise looking over his shoulder trying to force me into buying products I don't want or need in order to push my ATV higher for his KPIs.

He's looking to buy two - maybe three - 3D printers for the store, so that we can bring our .stls to the store for printing. Like any other paper copy or print shop.

I didn't realise my GW store was so bad until I had an FLGS. Like, I always thought the above was just the price I had to pay in order to have a venue and terrain to paint and play at. 'GW is GW, and that's just what they do. It's cool.' Now I realise that none of that is necessary to make a hobby environment, and never was.

EDIT:
Oh. I do go to my GW. Turns out that there are two different paint ranges for retailers or something. There's something like ~30 paints that only cool guys at GW can have. I don't know, the reason was confusing. I do know that my GW has a wider paint range for sale than my FLGS.

Still, you can sometimes see neat stuff at GW stores you don't typically see at FLGS. It's more of a sightseeing trip than a regular thing anyway.

[LansXero]

Still, you can sometimes see neat stuff at GW stores you don't typically see at FLGS. It's more of a sightseeing trip than a regular thing anyway.

They serve a purpose, to attract newcomers and make conversions due to the wow factor, professional layout, heavy marketing budget, etc. Then they fail super hard at upkeeping those converts / serving that community and FLGS take over. Their role in the exosystem is an important one, but could be way better if it was managed in a different direction.

[Cheesegear]

They serve a purpose, to attract newcomers and make conversions due to the wow factor, professional layout, heavy marketing budget, etc. Then they fail super hard at upkeeping those converts / serving that community and FLGS take over...

I am interested in Warhammer. Oh, there's a local Warhammer store in my area. Neat.
Buy Warhammer.
Join local gaming groups on Facebook looking for games at GW.
Oh, lol. We all hang at FLGS now. If you want games that's where everyone is.

Thanks Warhammer store for introducing the kid to the hobby. FLGS will take it from here.

[Cheesegear]

Looking up some painting tutorials.

So, Vallejo has Inks, right?
Are Contrasts even close to an equivalent of that?

[Squark]

Looking up some painting tutorials.

So, Vallejo has Inks, right?
Are Contrasts even close to an equivalent of that?

As a complete novice when it comes to painting, all I can offer you is this reddit exchange I found when I googled "Vallejo Ink vs Citadel Contrast"

[LansXero]

Contrast are thicker glazes which were thicker washes which are less saturated inks. So no.

Vallejo is way overhyped, unless you do commission work and/or care about squeezing the absolute best quality for your models AND have the skills to back it up. Most of the time color pallette and personal ability will make it so any brand ends up being the same.

At least for the US, and by extension LATAM, Vallejo has awful supply issues and delays in new releases, even including their collaboration products with wizkids. So we've gotten much more used to working with TAP / Citadel and found we dont miss Vallejo at all.

[Cheesegear]

Vallejo is way overhyped, unless you do commission work and/or care about squeezing the absolute best quality for your models AND have the skills to back it up.

Well yeah it's for a commission. But I managed to colour match with a Contrast Paint. It's fine. I was wondering if there was a noticeable difference...Since I thin my Contrasts because they're so unwieldy, it worked fine.

[Trafalgar]

One thing on the whole GW vs 3d printing/homemade argument I don't understand is when people bring up GW's right to protect the IP so they can make money and that 3d printing cuts into those profits.

GW is an insanely profitable company and it's profits have been growing steadily over the last 10 years. If the growth of hobbyist 3d printing cut into those profits, it's not affecting their bottom line.

[LansXero]

One thing on the whole GW vs 3d printing/homemade argument I don't understand is when people bring up GW's right to protect the IP so they can make money and that 3d printing cuts into those profits.

GW is an insanely profitable company and it's profits have been growing steadily over the last 10 years. If the growth of hobbyist 3d printing cut into those profits, it's not affecting their bottom line.

Of course it is. Its reducing its growth by any number of people who would've bought a GW product but didn't due to 3D printing existing. Yes, most people who go for 3D printing wouldn't have bought GW anyways: too poor, too finicky taste, no GW stores around them, want a model thats too divergent like femMarines or furry stuff, etc. But there is definitively some impact.

When you create something, you deserve all the money that comes from it. All of it. There isn't a 'making enough' point, thats not how the world works. There isn't such a thing as 'too much profit'. So its still piracy and IP theft even if you see them making millions; its their work and time to pay the people who made it all so its their millions to make.

[Cheesegear]

Yeah, it's not 40K. But I'm happy all the same.

Spoiler

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Also, a Wizkids Beholder is $10; Can't even buy two SM Servitors for $10.

[LansXero]

Yeah, it's not 40K. But I'm happy all the same.

Spoiler

Show

Also, a Wizkids Beholder is $10; Can't even buy two SM Servitors for $10.

Where are you finding UPM beholders for 10$? Those stupid things keep going out of stock at distribution, whoever is charging that little is leaving money on the table.

Also, while technically great, I hate the stalk color. Its beautifully painted yet I dont like it. Not meant as a criticism, but bloody eyestalks are bleh. I guess the commision cliente decided on the palette?

[Squark]

Where are you finding UPM beholders for 10$? Those stupid things keep going out of stock at distribution, whoever is charging that little is leaving money on the table.

Also, while technically great, I hate the stalk color. Its beautifully painted yet I dont like it. Not meant as a criticism, but bloody eyestalks are bleh. I guess the commision cliente decided on the palette?

Amazon? Wizkids itself? They're in stock if you search right now.

[Cheesegear]

Where are you finding UPM beholders for 10$?

It's the RRP, in $AUD?
I could go to three different places that sell UPMs, and if one in stock isn't $10, then I'm sure I'd have rights to complain to somebody. Probably WizKids themselves.

Those stupid things keep going out of stock at distribution, whoever is charging that little is leaving money on the table.

Well, yeah. If you're selling a WK Beholder on eBay, I've seen a UPM go for $40, when the RRP was only 10. But if you went to a store, it would be being sold for $10.

Something, something, scalpers?

Also, while technically great, I hate the stalk color. Its beautifully painted yet I dont like it.

It's sad how often that is said about the things I do. Is my colour palette really that bad? Are my preferences wrong?

Not meant as a criticism, but bloody eyestalks are bleh. I guess the commision cliente decided on the palette?

The client did not pick the colours. But I can say that the client is very happy with the end result.

[Squark]

It's sad how often that is said about the things I do. Is my colour palette really that bad? Are my preferences wrong?

In person, or just online? If its the latter, it might be a camera problem. For what it's worth, I think it looks good.

The client did not pick the colours. But I can say that the client is very happy with the end result.

Well, that's the primary metric for success here, then.

[LansXero]

It's sad how often that is said about the things I do. Is my colour palette really that bad? Are my preferences wrong?

The color itself isn't bad. I just dont like bloody colors. Not 'bloody' as in a curse, but as blood-coloured. Dont know why, I just dont like deep reds. Its not even an issue with actual blood, been around it a lot with little problem.

[Hootman]

Is my colour palette really that bad? Are my preferences wrong?

A quick survey of the internet says your palette is quite similar to a number of other paint jobs done on the same model, so I think you're in the clear on this one. The internet says Lans is the one who is wrong.

Comparing this mini to older official art, I find it interesting that the texture of the stalks is so different from the body. On a lot of beholders, the stalks appear to be the same material as the core, but on this guy, it's clearly different; the body is kinda knobbly like tree bark, while the eyestalks are very smooth and muscular.

[Tvtyrant]

A quick survey of the internet says your palette is quite similar to a number of other paint jobs done on the same model, so I think you're in the clear on this one. The internet says Lans is the one who is wrong.

Comparing this mini to older official art, I find it interesting that the texture of the stalks is so different from the body. On a lot of beholders, the stalks appear to be the same material as the core, but on this guy, it's clearly different; the body is kinda knobbly like tree bark, while the eyestalks are very smooth and muscular.

In Lords of Madness they say eye stalks are the most varied thing between individuals. Some have exoskeletons, others scales, others are squid-like.

[Renegade Paladin]

And I recall that, at least in 3rd edition Forgotten Realms canon, beholders had wild variations like that, and each strain thought the others were abominations and would attempt to destroy them.

[Blackhawk748]

And I recall that, at least in 3rd edition Forgotten Realms canon, beholders had wild variations like that, and each strain thought the others were abominations and would attempt to destroy them.

It's even more nuts than that. In 3.5 each and every Beholder is a unique combination of traits and inherently hates every other beholder. Except for their main Goddess. She's fine.

Its hilarious.

[Hootman]

Moving back to 40k things, and more specifically Orks...I think I'm coming around on the concept of the Speedwaaagh! rule. It just does so much damage if you're built around it, I can't help it.

Edit: Except the Deffkilla Wartrike being the only way to unlock it except for Thraka. I still don't like that thing. Cool model, garbage rules for what I'd want to use it for. Also, stupidly, no synergy with the Speedwaaagh! rule itself.

Max unit of 9 Warbikerz costs ~230pts, and each model has 2 Dakkaguns. Within 9" of your target (which is easy enough to get to with a 14" Move) gives 10 shots per model as S5. Throw down Speedwaagh! at the beginning of the turn for +2 shots per model and AP-1, then point your 108 S5 AP-1 D1 shots at something and watch it vanish. Mathhammer says it fully kills like 12 Primaris Marines in the open.

And you can bring 3 of these units. And that math doesn't include your Kultur (obvious answers are Bad Moons for better shooting, or Goffs to follow up with an S5 AP-1 3A/model charge on the next unit, because the first one is dead)

Their damage significantly outstrips the same point values of Shoota Boyz, with better survivability and almost triple the movement. Once some big tourney player figures out if Ghaz is still worth paying for, I'm betting you'll see them on a lot of top tables.

It's weird to me on a thematic level for Evil Sunz to be 'meh' bikerz, but when they take away the +1" charge bonus, nerf 'Ere We Go, and remove the 'run and fire Assault weapons' power...they have basically nothing left. Thanks, GW.

(To clarify, they technically didn't remove the ability, they just changed most Assault weapons into Dakka weapons, which removes the ability by proxy. Now you've got KMBs and Burnas left as the common-ish Assault weapons, and probably nothing else.)

[Blackhawk748]

(To clarify, they technically didn't remove the ability, they just changed most Assault weapons into Dakka weapons, which removes the ability by proxy. Now you've got KMBs and Burnas left as the common-ish Assault weapons, and probably nothing else.)

I don't have the new dex but the **** is a Dakka weapon?