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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    JINK
    The Ravenwing are undisputed masters of mounted combat, and make for fast-moving targets that are difficult to draw a bead upon.

    If this unit has the Grim Resolve Chapter Tactic, or it has the Inheritors of the Primarch Successor Tactic, and it is using the Chapter Tactic of the Dark Angels, then:
    Models in this unit have a 5+ invulnerable save against ranged attacks. In your Movement phase, if this unit Remains Stationary, it loses this invulnerable save until the start of your next Movement phase.
    Each time this unit Advances, until the start of your next turn, models in this unit have a 4+ invulnerable save against ranged attacks.

    They always have a 5++. They only lose it if they dont move during their movement phase. Cant 'not move' if you havent had a turn yet, so cant lose it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    Remained Stationary: If a unit Remains Stationary in its controller's Movement phase, or its controller has not yet had a Movement phase, then, until such a point as any model in that unit moves for any reason, it is said to have Remained Stationary.
    Rules interpretation from a law student: While the unit counts as having Remained Stationary, the Jink rule specifies that it only TESTS if the model "Remained Stationary" in the controlling player's Movement Phase. The important part is "In your movement phase, if this unit Remains Stationary." If they didn't want it to work this way (assuming they put any effort into their rules) they would have written something along the lines of "Unless this unit currently counts as having Remained Stationary" or similar.
    So it has Jink if the player goes second in Turn 1.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Spoiler: Wych Cult List
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    Cursed Blade Patrol

    HQs
    60-Succubus
    60

    Troops
    55-5 Wyches, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Grave Lotus
    55-5 Wyches, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Grave Lotus
    55-5 Wyches, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Grave Lotus
    165

    Fast Attack
    175-10 Hellions, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Painbringer
    175

    Dedicated Transports
    85-Venom, two Splinter Cannons, Chain Snares, Grisly Trophies
    85-Venom, two Splinter Cannons, Chain Snares, Grisly Trophies
    85-Venom, two Splinter Cannons, Chain Snares, Grisly Trophies
    255

    Total Points
    60-HQs
    165-Troops
    175-Fast Attack
    255-Dedicated Transports
    655



    Repeat this times three. Leaves 35 points left over, for what, I do not know. Could squeeze in two more Hellions to one squad? I dunno.

    First attempt at a Wych Cult list-and I have NO IDEA what loadouts to give the Succubi. But, basically everything in the list is S5 or better, with AP, so... Good?
    Last edited by JNAProductions; 2021-04-01 at 07:38 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Spoiler: Wych Cult List
    Show
    Cursed Blade Patrol

    HQs
    60-Succubus
    60

    Troops
    55-5 Wyches, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Grave Lotus
    55-5 Wyches, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Grave Lotus
    55-5 Wyches, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Grave Lotus
    165

    Fast Attack
    175-10 Hellions, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Painbringer
    175

    Dedicated Transports
    85-Venom, two Splinter Cannons, Chain Snares, Grisly Trophies
    85-Venom, two Splinter Cannons, Chain Snares, Grisly Trophies
    85-Venom, two Splinter Cannons, Chain Snares, Grisly Trophies
    255

    Total Points
    60-HQs
    165-Troops
    175-Fast Attack
    255-Dedicated Transports
    655



    Repeat this times three. Leaves 35 points left over, for what, I do not know. Could squeeze in two more Hellions to one squad? I dunno.

    First attempt at a Wych Cult list-and I have NO IDEA what loadouts to give the Succubi. But, basically everything in the list is S5 or better, with AP, so... Good?
    Wyches need more bodies. They generally work better in Raiders. Wyches are good but this list would be much leaning on Raiders. 9 venoms is a lot, but they’re only T5. Likewise 5x bodies can die to almost anything, being T3.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Guide to Dark Angels

    Spoiler: Abilities
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    A DARK ANGELS Detachment - allows for AGENTS OF THE IMPERIUM - gains the following;
    Chapter Tactics - Grim Resolve: If a model hasn't moved 'this' turn, it gains +1 to hit on any attack it makes. Additionally, Dark Angels models automatically pass Combat Attrition tests.
    This means that Dark Angels can fail Morale tests - particularly surrounding Oaths of Moment - but they just wont ever lose models when they do.

    All RAVENWING models gain Jink: If your model moves in the Movement phase, gain a 5+ Invulnerable save vs. Ranged attacks. If your model Advances in the Movement phase as well, improve to 4+ Invulnerable vs. Ranged Attacks. In addition to the models found in the Dark Angels book, the units are:
    - Captain on Bike, Primaris Chaplain on Bike, Outriders, Invader ATVs, Bikes, Attack Bikes, STORM SPEEDERS and LAND SPEEDERS. Basically, if it's a Bike or a Speeder, it's Ravenwing.

    All DEATHWING and INNER CIRCLE units gain Inner Circle:
    - Auto pass Morale tests. Oaths of Moment here we come.
    - Can't Fall Back from FALLEN units. This doesn't matter at all because who the **** runs Fallen!?
    - When you do try to Fall Back, roll 2d6 vs. your own unit's Leadership. If you roll higher, you can't Fall Back.
    - INFANTRY units can't be wounded on less than 4+. WHAT!? Yeah. OKAY. SURE. GG losers.
    In addition to the units found in the Dark Angels book, Deathwing/Inner Circle units are:
    - Basically, if it's a TERMINATOR or BLADEGUARD, it's Deathwing.

    Dark Angels can't take Sternguard Veterans or Vanguard Veterans. That's fine.


    A DARK ANGELS Army - does not allow AGENTS OF THE IMPERIUM - gains the following:

    Sons of the Lion:
    - Devastator Doctrine. RAVENWING models gain +3" to their Move, and can Advance-and-Shoot in the same turn (with any weapon), with -1 to hit. Remember that Ravenwing models also gain a 4+ Invulnerable when they Advance. This is really good.
    - Tactical Doctrine. INFANTRY units - except DEATHWING - can fire Rapid Fire and Assault weapons, whilst Engaged, at a unit that's Engaging them. Using BS5+. Which means that the roll can be modified. Specifically, in that units that haven't moved 'this' turn gain +1 to hit.
    - Assault Doctrine. DEATHWING INFANTRY and DEATHWING DREADNOUGHTS can re-roll to wound Melee attacks vs. CHARACTERS and any model with a wounds characteristic of 8+.

    Dark Angels lend themselves towards playing 'every unit'. You are very clearly incentivized to take as many Ravenwing and Deathwing units as you can. 'Greenwing' in 9th Ed., isn't really a thing. Because we're not even done, yet.

    In a DARK ANGELS Army, if a Vanguard Detachment only contains DEATHWING models;
    - Deathwing Terminators, Terminators, Assault Terminators and Relic Terminators
    Are Objective Secured, and if your Warlord is part of the Detachment then it doesn't cost any CPs. You don't need Troops.

    In a DARK ANGELS Army, if an Outrider Detachment only contains RAVENWING models;
    - Bikes and Outriders
    Are Objective Secured, and if your Warlord is part of the Detachment then it doesn't cost any CPs. You don't need Troops.

    Your Army can only include one RAVENWING CAPTAIN or DEATHWING CAPTAIN 'from the same Chapter.' This means that you can have multiple Ravenwing- or Deathwing- Captains, if you abuse the Successor Chapter rules. Speaking of...


    Successor Tactics: The Dark Angel Doctrine+ encourages you to take a lot of Ravenwing (Bikes & Speeders) because Turn 1 is Best Turn. The Assault Doctrine is naff, because it expects you to get units fitted with Rapid Fire and Assault weapons, into Melee, which is exactly where those units don't want to be. And finally on Turn 3 - too late - you're encouraged to use your Deathwing to beat up Vehicles in Melee...Just kidding...
    - Inheritors of the Primarch. ...In a big **** you, GW has decided that if you aren't actual Dark Angels, or you take their Chapter Tactic anyway, then you can't use the Jink or Inner Circle rules. **** you. All Dark Angels Successors that don't use Dark Angels rules anyway, are bad. The end. Jink is too good not to have. Inner Circle is too good not to have. The only reason to ever play a Dark Angels Successor is if for some reason you don't like Deathwing or Ravenwing - and if that's the case, why are you playing Dark Angels? The whole book is built around those two Sub-Sub-Factions.


    Rites of Initiation
    Give the DEATHWING Keyword to:
    - CAPTAINS, Primaris Lieutenants with Storm Shields, DREADNOUGHTS, LAND RAIDERS, REPULSORS - and EXECUTIONERS, STORMRAVEN GUNSHIPS, or any other Transport that can transport TERMINATORS - hey, that's Forge World-proofing!
    However, remember that the major reason to give your model the Deathwing Keyword, is to grant access to Inner Circle rule. But Inner Circle only works in the first place, if you're Dark Angels, or run Inheritors of the Primarch. **** you, that's why. Oddly, it is possible to run a Captain on Bike (Ravenwing Keyword), and then also give him the Deathwing Keyword, too. How does that work? ...Shut up.


    Spoiler: Stratagems
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    Wrath of the Lion (2): Once per game. When a model from your army uses a weapon affected by your army's current Combat Doctrine, when the effect procs, increase the AP by another -1 (for a total of -2). This applies to your army, and it's exactly as good as you think it is - that's why it's 2 CPs. Army-wide Stratagems shouldn't exist. But GW keeps making 'em, so people are gonna keep using 'em.

    Intractable (2): A Dark Angels unit can Fall Back-and-Shoot in the same turn - no penalties. Additionally, if the unit has the Inner Circle rule, you don't need to roll the 2d6 to Fall Back, you just can. But, as with all Space Marine 'Fall Back' Stratagems, it actually sucks because it ruins your Oaths of Moment, which is one the best/easiest Secondaries for ADEPTUS ASTARTES armies. But you do you. If you want to be punished for Falling Back that you paid 2 CPs for, just don't take the Secondary?

    Full Throttle (1/2): A RAVENWING unit that Advances, can immediately make another Normal Move up to 12", of top of what the unit just Moved. The unit can't Charge or Shoot, and since Ravenwing aren't INFANTRY, they can't perform Actions either. So this is really good for Linebreaker and Engage on All Fronts, if you're building your army around those Objectives, you totally can. 2 CPs if the unit you use this on has 6+ models.

    Line Unbreakable: An extremely confusing Stratagem. But the gist of it, is that when your opponent targets one of your INFANTRY units in the Fight phase, they can only use models that are actually within the 1/2" of your models. Which means that you straight up invalidate one of the primary reasons to run a Melee-Horde; They can't fight in more than 'one rank'. Which means that they likely will suck. Remember, as Dark Angels, any time you read the word 'Infantry', you should be thinking of Terminators - maybe Aggressors, if you're a nice person. You should read; "Terminators can't be overrun by hordes."

    High-Speed Focus: In your opponent's Shooting phase, give a RAVENWING VEHICLE a 4+ Invulnerable save vs. ranged Attacks. Basically, give them Jink, but they don't need to Move and/or Advance. Decent enough, especially after Turn 1.

    No Foe Too Great to Subdue: When a unit of DEATHWING KNIGHTS Fights against a VEHICLE or MONSTER; Give your Knights +1 to Wound and increase their AP by -1.

    Marked For Command: Select a Huntmaster, Knight Master, or 'Sergeant' and give them one of the following:
    - Master-Crafted Weapon, Digital Weapons, Atonement or Bolts of Judgement
    Effectiveness TBD.

    Paragon of the Chapter: Give your non-named Dark Angels Warlord an additional Warlord Trait. Pretty much use always.

    Honoured By The Rock: When you give a Relic to a Successor Chapter's model, you can choose a Relic of the Rock. Standard.

    Tactical Appraisal: If every unit in your army has Combat Doctrines, one Dark Angels unit within 6" of your Dark Angels Warlord, can instead have a different Combat Doctrine until your next turn.

    The Hunt (2/3): Once per game. Before the game, after Deployment, a RAVENWING unit can make a Normal Move, but must end their Move 9" away from enemy models. Very good, since Ravenwing are really useful - especially Black Knights. Costs 3 CPs if the unit has 6+ models.

    Targeting Guidance (2): Select an enemy unit within 18" and visible to one of your RAVENWING LAND SPEEDERS or STORM SPEEDERS. Your army gains +1 to hit with ranged attacks vs. that unit. Very useful for cancelling out the -1 to hit your Ravenwing models will get for Advancing on Turn 1. There's no downside! It's all amazing, all the time.

    Swift Strike (2/3): After one of your RAVENWING units Fights, it can Fall Back, or, make a Normal Move if it isn't Engaged. Costs 3 CPs if the unit contains 6+ models. This does not happen 'at the end of the Fight phase'. It happens after your unit Fights, which means that your opponent cannot Fight back, because they wont be in Engaged anymore. This Stratagem is silly-good, because Black Knights are already amazing.

    Secret Agenda: You don't have to reveal one of your Secondary Objectives/Agendas to your opponent until the first time you score VPs/XP on it. Fun idea. Ultimately pointless.

    Stasis Shell (2): When a RAVENWING model shoots with an Astartes Grenade Launcher at a non-VEHICLE, non-MONSTER unit, make a single attack. If it hits, the unit can't Fall Back. For 2 CPs, this Stratagem is terrible.

    Weapons From the Dark Age (2): When a DARK ANGELS unit shoots with Plasma weapons, give their weapons +1 Damage until the end of the phase.

    "That's a lot of Ravenwing stuff!"
    It is. GW wants you playing Ravenwing.
    "Where's the Deathwing stuff, then?"
    Deathwing are already plenty good with what they have. They don't need the extra help.




    Spoiler: Editing Formats for later
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    ADEPTUS ASTARTES
    DARK ANGELS
    DEATHWING
    RAVENWING

    CHARACTER
    INFANTRY
    MONSTER
    VEHICLE

    DEATHWING KNIGHTS
    LAND SPEEDER
    STORM SPEEDER
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2021-04-03 at 03:25 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Oddly, it is possible to run a Captain on Bike (Ravenwing Keyword), and then also give him the Deathwing Keyword, too. How does that work?
    Remember the old days when all captains were automatically Deathwing, even if they were in power armour? Kinda like that. Though now, the power armoured captains don't have to be Deathwing members - it's just that they can be.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-04-02 at 02:58 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    In case anyone is interested, by the way, I'm trying to start up a youtube channel for terrain builds and painting videos and stuff. Right now I only have one video, but I do plan to make more.

    Terrain build video here

    Do I know what kinds of terrain people who care about rules want? Absolutely not. Do I have a decent grasp of what looks cool? Pretty sure I do. This is your up front warning that I only care about building casual scum terrain for casuals, so I don't want to hear any complaints about functionality.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    Do I know what kinds of terrain people who care about rules want? Absolutely not. Do I have a decent grasp of what looks cool? Pretty sure I do. This is your up front warning that I only care about building casual scum terrain for casuals, so I don't want to hear any complaints about functionality.
    Joke's on you.
    It's a huge stonking terrain piece that blocks LoS from all sides and prevents Turn 1 ranged alpha strikes.
    It's perfect.

    As from all terrain channels, I eagerly await their version of a 'portable board/mat', a la what you find in the starter boxes, and the things that are required for Kill Team, etc.
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    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    In case anyone is interested, by the way, I'm trying to start up a youtube channel for terrain builds and painting videos and stuff. Right now I only have one video, but I do plan to make more.

    Terrain build video here

    Do I know what kinds of terrain people who care about rules want? Absolutely not. Do I have a decent grasp of what looks cool? Pretty sure I do. This is your up front warning that I only care about building casual scum terrain for casuals, so I don't want to hear any complaints about functionality.
    Interesting use of the dress pins as rivets. Any thoughts on how to conveniently do small rivets, i.e. something on a vehicle? My current method of cutting pieces off a thin plastic dowel is arduous so I'm always looking for easier ideas.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    Interesting use of the dress pins as rivets. Any thoughts on how to conveniently do small rivets, i.e. something on a vehicle? My current method of cutting pieces off a thin plastic dowel is arduous so I'm always looking for easier ideas.
    Flat back plastic craft pearls, if you can find them small enough. 1.5mm is about the same size as those pinheads.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Last time in the Eternal Darkness...
    • If 40K is so broken, why do you play it?
    • What is 'fun'?

    ...We now return you to the Darkness.
    Turn 3 of this game here back in 7th - https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...postcount=1178

    Also, after going back through at least 5 threads and reading a fair bit of the stuff there to find that batrep, I'm never trusting any judgement you make ever again Cheese.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Bring Back Tank Shock

    The current "vehicles fight in close combat" just doesnt' do it for me.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwynchan'rGwyll View Post
    Bring Back Tank Shock

    The current "vehicles fight in close combat" just doesnt' do it for me.
    Reminds me of the recent Goonhammer article on favourite old rules (https://www.goonhammer.com/round-tab...er-some-rules/).

    Anyone here got any favourite rules from the past? I fondly recall a lot of the old customisation options, but looking back there aren’t many other things I think were better in the past...
    Evil round every corner, careful not to step in any.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    People want customization, but also dont want book keeping, want wysiwyg of all thos options, and dont want to take electronics to the table. So the only logical conclussion is that people dont know what the f they want and the simpler, the better as more new people edge out the weird old people.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    In case anyone is interested, by the way, I'm trying to start up a youtube channel for terrain builds and painting videos and stuff. Right now I only have one video, but I do plan to make more.

    Terrain build video here

    Do I know what kinds of terrain people who care about rules want? Absolutely not. Do I have a decent grasp of what looks cool? Pretty sure I do. This is your up front warning that I only care about building casual scum terrain for casuals, so I don't want to hear any complaints about functionality.
    I think this will look really cool once all painted up. Looking forward to it.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Anyone here got any favourite rules from the past? I fondly recall a lot of the old customisation options, but looking back there aren’t many other things I think were better in the past...
    Tank Shock? Pshaw! How about ramming and running them over! How about a Strength 7 hit causing 1d12 wounds from getting hit by my rhino?

    Crew that can survive the destruction of their vehicle.

    Split targeting: The guy with the missile launcher doesn't need to shoot the same target as the rest of the squad. Also, if the guy with the move-or-fire heavy weapon doesn't move, he/she/it can still shoot, even if the rest of the squad does (assuming the squad maintains coherency).

    Vehicles that are faster than the infantry.

    Random missions.
    Last edited by Lord Torath; 2021-04-05 at 12:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    People want customization, but also dont want book keeping, want wysiwyg of all thos options, and dont want to take electronics to the table. So the only logical conclussion is that people dont know what the f they want and the simpler, the better as more new people edge out the weird old people.
    I think the simpler explanation is that people want different things. That being said, streamlined, KISS rules tend to have more mass appeal than finicky, simulationist rules; And since your ability to actually get a game affects a game's popularity, this can snowball. Although it's still worth producing something to appeal to that smaller crowd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Tank Shock? Pshaw! How about ramming and running them over! How about a Strength 7 hit causing 1d12 wounds from getting hit by my rhino?

    Crew that can survive the destruction of their vehicle.

    Split targeting: The guy with the missile launcher doesn't need to shoot the same target as the rest of the squad. Also, if the guy with the move-or-fire heavy weapon doesn't move, he/she/it can still shoot, even if the rest of the squad does (assuming the squad maintains coherency). Split targeting is a thing, isn't it?

    Vehicles that are faster than the infantry. ... This is also a thing

    Random missions.... GW provides missions in D3 and D6 Format?
    Last edited by Squark; 2021-04-05 at 01:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    "This is a thing"
    These have all changed between the various editions. In many editions, if one member of the squad moves, the entire squad is considered to have moved.

    In third edition, all weapons attached to a squad or vehicle had to target the same unit. The Land Raider had to futilely fire its heavy bolters at the same tank the port lascannons were targeting, even though there was a tempting infantry target within range. And the starboard lascannons couldn't fire if they couldn't see the same tank. I will readily admit to not knowing how things currently stand, though.

    In third (and 4th I think) all land vehicles had a 12" max move. Infantry could move 6 inches, assault six more, and if they defeated their opponents, consolidate/sweeping advance a further (farther?) 6 inches. Unless they had Fleet-of-Foot, which gave them another 1d6", if I recall correctly.

    As for Random Missions, all I read here is how the secondary objectives are the deciding factor in most games, and you choose the easiest of those and design your army around them.

    More rules:

    Terminators used to be able to run.

    Power Fists, Thunderhammers, and similar weapons didn't automatically strike last.

    Different sized blast templates for different weapons. Hand flamers, flamers, and heavy flamers all had different-sized templates. Da Crunch!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    These have all changed between the various editions. In many editions, if one member of the squad moves, the entire squad is considered to have moved.

    In third edition, all weapons attached to a squad or vehicle had to target the same unit. The Land Raider had to futilely fire its heavy bolters at the same tank the port lascannons were targeting, even though there was a tempting infantry target within range. And the starboard lascannons couldn't fire if they couldn't see the same tank. I will readily admit to not knowing how things currently stand, though.

    In third (and 4th I think) all land vehicles had a 12" max move. Infantry could move 6 inches, assault six more, and if they defeated their opponents, consolidate/sweeping advance a further (farther?) 6 inches. Unless they had Fleet-of-Foot, which gave them another 1d6", if I recall correctly.

    As for Random Missions, all I read here is how the secondary objectives are the deciding factor in most games, and you choose the easiest of those and design your army around them.

    More rules:

    Terminators used to be able to run.

    Power Fists, Thunderhammers, and similar weapons didn't automatically strike last.

    Different sized blast templates for different weapons. Hand flamers, flamers, and heavy flamers all had different-sized templates. Da Crunch!
    I don't understand your point here. Like, true, these rules weren't things at one point. But they are now. So what are you getting at? Split fire is a thing, vehicle movement is typically higher than infantry, terminators can run, Power fists and stuff doesn't do that anymore.

    As for the Random Mission thing, yeah kinda. What changes between missions is where the objectives are placed, and your deployment zone. But Primary objectives is always scored the same way, so the variance comes from Secondaries, and the best most reliable way to win is to pick the Secondaries that aren't dependent on your opponent at all.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    As for Random Missions, all I read here is how the secondary objectives are the deciding factor in most games, and you choose the easiest of those and design your army around them.
    I see the confusion. The missions themselves are still random (Although I do think become more homogeneous. No more capture the flag missions). It's just that it's easy to tie on primaries, so secondaries are the primary point of competition (I'm probably oversimplifying)


    Different sized blast templates for different weapons. Hand flamers, flamers, and heavy flamers all had different-sized templates. Da Crunch!
    Really? huh. When was that? 3rd? As far back as I can remember (5th, with occasional glimpses of earlier editions), the teardrop template has been the same size (Unless you count the apocalypse version). There were the 3" and 5" circular blast templates (and the other apoc ones), but there was only one teardrop.

    I still miss templates. I know they could lead to some slowdowns in competitive play, but they were just fun. Torrent weapons and barrage weapons especially.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Power Fists, Thunderhammers, and similar weapons didn't automatically strike last.
    Do you mean they used to hit at normal initiative early in the game's history, or that you miss the times when such weapons forced you to strike at I1.

    Personally, I am quite happy that initiative is gone, but I admit playing Necrons makes me rather biased in that regard.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I don't understand your point here. Like, true, these rules weren't things at one point. But they are now. So what are you getting at? Split fire is a thing, vehicle movement is typically higher than infantry, terminators can run, Power fists and stuff doesn't do that anymore.
    I think the main take-away here is that I'm a filthy casual who is not nearly as conversant with the current rules as I need to be to post on the topic of rules that I miss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Really? huh. When was that? 3rd? As far back as I can remember (5th, with occasional glimpses of earlier editions), the teardrop template has been the same size (Unless you count the apocalypse version). There were the 3" and 5" circular blast templates (and the other apoc ones), but there was only one teardrop.

    I still miss templates. I know they could lead to some slowdowns in competitive play, but they were just fun. Torrent weapons and barrage weapons especially.
    Nope, 2nd Edition. Three different flamer templates, plus a longer teardrop shape for Destructor/Stream of Corruption. The Thudd Gun/Venom Cannon template was the best: four 2" diameter blast templates linked together. There was also a foot-shaped template to represent the Foot of Gork for the ork Da Krunch! psychic power. The Death Wave half-circle. 1", 1 1/2", 2" and 3" radius blast templates, plus a pair of 1 1/2" radius vortex templates. Noise Marine Doom Sirens also had special templates.

    Squig Catapults and buzzer squigs! Those were fun!

    I don't miss the Virus Outbreak/grenades, though.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Reminds me of the recent Goonhammer article on favourite old rules (https://www.goonhammer.com/round-tab...er-some-rules/).

    Anyone here got any favourite rules from the past? I fondly recall a lot of the old customisation options, but looking back there aren’t many other things I think were better in the past...
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Reminds me of the recent Goonhammer article on favourite old rules (https://www.goonhammer.com/round-tab...er-some-rules/).
    Ummm... The Swooping Hawk with vortex grenade thing. Did he not read the part of the Swooping Hawk rules he put up that say they can't use Grenades the turn they come in?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Also Instant Death.
    Thinking about this, I'm very mad at how the power creep has happened.

    These weapons do d6 Damage to destroy multi-wound models easily!
    ...These multi-wound models occasionally ignore Damage.

    Fine then. These attacks deal Mortal Wounds to destroy multi-wound models that ignore Damage.
    ...These multi-wound models ignore Mortal Wounds.

    ...Wait, what?

    Invulnerable saves too stronk.
    Models that deal Mortal Wounds are mandatory.
    ...GW makes more things that deal Mortal Wounds.
    Models that ignore Mortal Wounds are mandatory.
    ...GW makes more things that ignore Mortal Wounds.

    Bringing back 'remove from the battlefield' is next in the power creep cycle, I guess.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Bringing back 'remove from the battlefield' is next in the power creep cycle, I guess.
    and then you have things like Morathi that go "when this model would be removed from the battlefield, instead don't".

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    and then you have things like Morathi that go "when this model would be removed from the battlefield, instead don't".
    Oof. I think Gotrek has that rule, too.

    I do like the idea, though that a model like Ghazgkull can only lose 4 wounds in a phase. Narratively, it makes no sense. But I do like the rule itself.
    If you tryhard, you can kill Ghazgkull in one Turn. It's not easy. But it's definitely doable.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Anyone here got any favourite rules from the past? I fondly recall a lot of the old customisation options, but looking back there aren’t many other things I think were better in the past...

    I miss the old vehicle facing rules and having to remove casualties based on which model was closer to the enemy unit that was shooting them. It was nice when things like positioning and flanking actually mattered.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Fergie0044 View Post
    I miss the old vehicle facing rules and having to remove casualties based on which model was closer to the enemy unit that was shooting them. It was nice when things like positioning and flanking actually mattered.
    And vehicle turn templates so the faster you went the less you could turn.
    Everything from 2nd is my stock answer. Third really dulled the game down so you could put more models on the board, although I did like the changes to melee so you don't have to do it one model at a time.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Yeah, I'm all for... I'm not sure what to call them. Simulationist? Narrative? Rules that do the things that the thing would do if I imagine the battlefield as a movie. Tanks having facings makes sense to me. Tanks and airplanes only being so maneuverable makes sense to me. Templates for missile weapons that can scatter and hit the wrong target make sense to me. I like all those things and I usually don't mind if they make the game a bit more complicated.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    and then you have things like Morathi that go "when this model would be removed from the battlefield, instead don't".
    That just reminds me of really old Malekith who had a rule that, I think, paraphrased was something like "this model has 5 hit points. It can never lose more than 1 hit point per turn and it can never be automatically removed".

    That thing was a slog to fight.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Not to digress too far into AOS but I'm setting up for a team tournament so Morathi, Gotrek, and Kill Instantly are all on my mind.

    Morathi has the "no more than three wounds in a turn, can't instantly die" rule, and Gotrek has "all damage is reduced to 1, can't instantly die", but I like that a lot. There's not many "instantly die" effects around (and far fewer that work on big heroes), which means that those particular heroes are a different puzzle, tactical challenge, and test of knowledge of your own army than your standard "deal a buttload of attacks". My army will have a nuclear-powered Archaon able to fight twice without being attacked in return, and my previous tournament army had Skarbrand dealing 24 mortal wounds without a roll, and Morathi is one of relatively few things that can stand up to those - which means if I'm facing her, my strategy of sending Archie straight down the centre line to murder the biggest thing on the board is completely out the window. And that's good! Now I have to play the game.
    Last edited by LeSwordfish; 2021-04-07 at 04:18 AM.
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