Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

[LeSwordfish]

How so?

Two main things, and I appreciate this is off topic:

• Discoverability on steam is pretty bad. If nobody's heard of you, and you can't wrangle a big marketing campaign or some kind of streamer or something, nobody will ever hear of you - you're just buried under the shovelware and porn games. This is largely because of valve's determination to do things algorithmically rather than in person - if you don't know the secret words to play the algorithm, Hentai Clicker 2000 does, and will always beat you, regardless of comparitive quality.
• The constant sale cycle devalues games significantly. If there is always a sale coming up soon, why would you ever pay full price for a game? It's good for the consumers I guess, but means that games make less profit, meaning that the margins are more trim, meaning that companies get caught in an unhappy cycle of either crunching, delaying, or compromising - none of which make for a better game or industry. I saw "i'll wait for the sale" comments on a £7 game, for god's sake - were they really telling me they could afford £4 but not £7? Or does the constant string of sales teach people that actually, the correct price for a game is always 33% off?

It's better than Epic, Gamer Pass, PS+ etc, which get people used to the idea that the correct price for a game is literally free*, but they're just responding to a landscape that steam created.

*Yes I know the developers get paid when their games are on this kind of thing - but everyone loses out from this devaluing, and it creates a definite have/have not situation that'll end up with some Microsoft/Sony/Tencent suit deciding which games everyone has, and which games nobody has.

[Cheesegear]

As I said upthread, I see the existence of alternative sculpts as a positive.

As do I. As I said previously - especially regarding Blood Bowl - GW can stop making models for all I care. If we were playing back in the day with cardboard cutouts, and now we're playing with 3DP'd alternative sculpts...GW is no longer necessary in the miniatures space (i.e; 'GW is dying.'). 3DP'd and 3rd Party Teams are all over the place, and 3DP'd and 3rd Party miniatures for both AoS and 40K are also all over the place.

There isn't a need for piracy...Except for the one that GW creates for itself. 'You can't play in a tournament unless your models are our ones.' Well it seems like GW just dug their own hole. I don't play in a GW anymore. I have almost interest in supporting GW anymore except for the odd Codex here and there. GW is not neccessary. Hobby is subjective. All the way down to where you even get your models in the first place.

What is necessary, is a central design space where anyone, anywhere, knows the rules and can rock up anywhere without being told what to do and roll dice (Crusade does not do this, BTW).

As far as I care, GW should just be writing Codecies and novels, from now on.

“OMG I didn’t mean to copy the designs. When saying 3D printer go brrr whenever GW puts out a new design what I meant was that lots of other people are putting out alternative sculpts that I prefer.”

1. I prefer the alternative sculpts that are also cheaper. They just look better - and in many cases, they actually do, lol.
2. GW said I can only go to tournaments if I use 1st Party miniatures that are expensive and prevent me from participating.

Again, the guy who made that meme is literally printing direct copies of GW models.

Okay.
I am telling you to go out and buy a 3D printer. Right now.
I am not telling you to pirate GW's miniatures - or anyone's miniatures.

There you go. You don't need a mold.
You bought a design from the artist, at their price - maybe it was free?
You paid a printer to make it for you.

My position is that it is an expensive luxury product...

So gatekeeping the hobby via finances is acceptable, and finding an economical solution to that problem should be shunned and frowned upon.

Corporations need to gatekeep their product so that their IP doesn't get touched by the unwashed masses. This hobby is for elites, don't you know.
It's a luxury product for luxury people.

I see where you're coming from. Got it.

It misses out so much stuff that you canÂ’t begin to make a reasonable comparison between the cost of a 3d printed model and the cost of a GW equivalent.

Right.
On the one hand you have a hobbyist in their own home printing models using .stls they either found or bought and printing out entire armies to their own specifications, to their own likings, for a reasonable price that they can bear on their own time. Potentially even commissioning custom sculpts and forming relationships with local businesses like the Printers.

On the other hand you have a corporate, publicly-traded ex-monopoly who needs to price hike and price gouge to maintain profit growth.

I know who I side with.

I've played Blood Bowl, and Mordheim for a long, long time.
I'm sure others have too.
I'm sure playing Blood Bowl and Mordheim without GW miniatures has not been a problem.

GW is not required as a miniatures company, anymore. I said it was coming. I said it was coming soon. I said it was coming sooner than GW was ready for. The future is now. It's here. Maybe in the US, the UK, things are different. The taxes are different, the costs of living are different. In Australia, the 'material conditions' (there's a buzzphrase for you) have reached the tipping point where 3D printing is a now viable alternative to buying anything from GW.

GW: 'We're a models company!'
Consumer: '3D printer go brrr,' as they say.
GW: 'If you want to play in our tournaments, you must use our models.'
Consumer: ...Really? Okay. You asked for this...

TL;DR
'Miniatures are expensive. We need an alternative.'
We found an alternative that is cost-effective and efficient and, in the long run, future-proof.
'Not that one.'

[Avaris]

So gatekeeping the hobby via finances is acceptable, and finding an economical solution to that problem should be shunned and frowned upon.

Corporations need to gatekeep their product so that their IP doesn't get touched by the unwashed masses. This hobby is for elites, don't you know.
It's a luxury product for luxury people.

I see where you're coming from. Got it.

Once again, in simple terms, because you are, as ever, picking out only the things you think I’m saying.

3D printing as a way of lowering the bar for entry to hobbyists who can afford the upfront cost of a printer is a good thing. I fully support the availability of alternative sculpts that are able to support playing of games. (For the record here, my bar is if I am able to look at a model and think ‘cool 3D sculpt’ in the same way as I would say ‘cool conversion’ - something I know is not the basic GW sculpt, but that can absolutely use design cues for it).

There is a separate issue of stealing IP and recreating sculpts directly. I view that as bad from an ethical stand point.

There is another separate issue of the extent to which GW models are ‘overpriced’. The cost of a 3D printed sculpt CANNOT be used as a direct comparison there, as there are a huge number of different externalities. It is a fundamentally different product. And there are advantages to GW plastics compared to resin, just as there are advantages to an STL file over GW plastics. And as I repeatedly say, I have definite issues with aspects of the GW sales model, particularly around a high barrier to entry on certain lines (Eldritch Omens is a fine example of this)

It’s not as simple as big bad GW vs noble home printing. It’s much more complex than that. What new hobbyist is going to invest in a 3D printer without first trying out GW plastics? What store is going to have 3D printed models on display as a way of enticing new hobbyists in? Different products and ways of production serve different needs.

[Cheesegear]

3D printing as a way of lowering the bar for entry to hobbyists who can afford the upfront cost of a printer is a good thing. I fully support the availability of alternative sculpts that are able to support playing of games.

Here, you admit that GW is now redundant; If you have 3D printer or ready access to one (3D printing is an industrial business now. You should find one relatively close by if your country still has a manufacturing base...Like, at all)...Find and buy sculpts and print them infinitely. You're done with GW. On this, we agree.

The cost of a 3D printed sculpt CANNOT be used as a direct comparison there, as there are a huge number of different externalities.

This is a [Space Marine] that was made in UK, with paper and cardboard from China, and shipped to Australia. Consumer price is $80.
This is a [Space Marine], I bought the .stl for $5, and paid the Printers $10 to make it based on its box dimensions. Consumer price is $15 for an equivalent model.

Those huge number of externalities? ...That's what's causing the problem.
That shipping, those mass production finances, those shipping and import taxes? Those are the problem, because they are passed onto the consumer.

Now here's the question that does need answering, and one I genuinely want an answer for;
If GW were to set up a manufacturing plant in, say, Sydney. Where 3D printers go brr all day, every day, mass producing sprues in massive quantities, just like an industrial printer...Does. Inside the country where it already pays the GST without import taxes and without shipping...Are GW products still expensive? And, if not...Why is 3D printing not looked at, at the company level? ...In any country?

What new hobbyist is going to invest in a 3D printer without first trying out GW plastics?

In my opinion? Hopefully all of them. As I said, if GW stops making miniatures tomorrow, I would consider that alright. They can move into streaming and video games and comics and board games and leverage their IP for all it's worth. But miniatures isn't really viable anymore, and you want to know the kicker? It's likely to get worse.

[Forum Explorer]

Once again, in simple terms, because you are, as ever, picking out only the things you think I’m saying.

3D printing as a way of lowering the bar for entry to hobbyists who can afford the upfront cost of a printer is a good thing. I fully support the availability of alternative sculpts that are able to support playing of games. (For the record here, my bar is if I am able to look at a model and think ‘cool 3D sculpt’ in the same way as I would say ‘cool conversion’ - something I know is not the basic GW sculpt, but that can absolutely use design cues for it).

There is a separate issue of stealing IP and recreating sculpts directly. I view that as bad from an ethical stand point.

There is another separate issue of the extent to which GW models are ‘overpriced’. The cost of a 3D printed sculpt CANNOT be used as a direct comparison there, as there are a huge number of different externalities. It is a fundamentally different product. And there are advantages to GW plastics compared to resin, just as there are advantages to an STL file over GW plastics. And as I repeatedly say, I have definite issues with aspects of the GW sales model, particularly around a high barrier to entry on certain lines (Eldritch Omens is a fine example of this)

It’s not as simple as big bad GW vs noble home printing. It’s much more complex than that. What new hobbyist is going to invest in a 3D printer without first trying out GW plastics? What store is going to have 3D printed models on display as a way of enticing new hobbyists in? Different products and ways of production serve different needs.

Why not? I care about GW's circumstances about as much as they care about mine, that is to say, very little to not at all.

So if I can get a satisfactory 3D Printed sculp of say an Ork Nob, why shouldn't I compare it to what GW is offering of the same model? Because if I'm getting the 3D sculp at a massively reduced price, and it is only slightly worse quality, then why is GW charging me something like 6-7 times the price of the 3D printed model? If all that shipping and other externalities is costing them so much, then why doesn't GW invest in putting 3D printers in every region?

Or to put it another way; GW's externalities are not my problem. If GW is being outcompeted by 3D printers, well that is not my problem either.


As for your later questions, anyone who bought a 3D printer for other reasons, because they are very useful machines, or knows someone who does, or has access to 3D Printing from work. Or, more commonly, simply knows of a place that offers 3D printing. One of my local gamestores actually offers 3D Printing in store. It's for D&D, design your character using a website, and then 3D print the model for your game. And they only charge like 10$ for their members.

Most stores admittedly won't have 3D printed models. Because here's something I learned recently. The at cost price for ten battle sisters is about 33$. The store price is 70$. An almost 200% mark up from cost. So for store owners, it actually doesn't cost them that much for display models.

[Avaris]

Why not? I care about GW's circumstances about as much as they care about mine, that is to say, very little to not at all.

So if I can get a satisfactory 3D Printed sculp of say an Ork Nob, why shouldn't I compare it to what GW is offering of the same model? Because if I'm getting the 3D sculp at a massively reduced price, and it is only slightly worse quality, then why is GW charging me something like 6-7 times the price of the 3D printed model? If all that shipping and other externalities is costing them so much, then why doesn't GW invest in putting 3D printers in every region?

Or to put it another way; GW's externalities are not my problem. If GW is being outcompeted by 3D printers, well that is not my problem either.


As for your later questions, anyone who bought a 3D printer for other reasons, because they are very useful machines, or knows someone who does, or has access to 3D Printing from work. Or, more commonly, simply knows of a place that offers 3D printing. One of my local gamestores actually offers 3D Printing in store. It's for D&D, design your character using a website, and then 3D print the model for your game. And they only charge like 10$ for their members.

Of course it’s not your problem: you are free to spend your money on whatever you like. But the general discussion isn’t ‘I’ll just go elsewhere’ it’s ‘this means GW is overpriced’. I’m referring to the externalities to highlight that they aren’t a directly comparable product, although they they are competing.

And IMO plastic sprues are a meaningfully different offer to a 3D printed model. A significant part of the appeal of the hobby is the tactile sense of building the model. Build, paint, play are the three broad elements of the hobby. If your focus is on just the play element then sure, a 3d printed model can meet that need. And for some people designing a figure digitally will meet the same appeal as building something out of plastic sprues. But for me certainly, I still want that tactile building element, which makes a plastic sprue a meaningfully different offer to the 3D print.

Edit: I’d also wager this is at least part of the answer to Cheesegear’s question about why they’re not setting up 3D printing factories in places like Australia. It’s a meaningfully different product. I’d also expect there is an element of packaging and transport: deconstructed sprues are an easier thing to package and sell in stores.

[Cheesegear]

A significant part of the appeal of the hobby is the tactile sense of building the model.
[...]
deconstructed sprues are an easier thing to package and sell in stores.

You know you can do that, right?

If GW were to set up a manufacturing plant in, say, Sydney. Where 3D printers go brr all day, every day, mass producing sprues in massive quantities

Start 3D printing sprues, like people already do.
It's a lot more design work, which is why your average home-hobbyist doesn't do it. But it can be done, it has been done. But GW is doing the design work on that sort of thing anyway.

GW can print the sprues anytime they want.

A 3D printer can print anything...Anything.:
If you want it to print a custom model that only goes one way...It does that.
If you want it to print multi-pose models...It does that. You could even make it so that the design has pre-built magnet holes.
If you want it to print multi-part customisation and conversion kits for the models you've already printed? Drag and drop, baby 'cause it can print that too.
If you want it to print terrain, it can print that too.
Custom bases? Done.

This is why you should just have a 3D printer. Not just for toy soliders. For literally anything you can think of.
GW could even make mad bank by creating a Hero Forge-equivalent, and letting you make .stls of the models you want (Space Marines to start, would be extremely easy to program because they're all the same). Hero Forge has a great business model.

'But resin isn't as good as plastic!'
...Other miniature companies and entire kick starters don't seem to find that to be an issue.

[LeSwordfish]

'But resin isn't as good as plastic!'

Who are you quoting here?

[Avaris]

You know you can do that, right?



Start 3D printing sprues, like people already do.
It's a lot more design work, which is why your average home-hobbyist doesn't do it. But it can be done, it has been done. But GW is doing the design work on that sort of thing anyway.

GW can print the sprues anytime they want.

A 3D printer can print anything...Anything.:
If you want it to print a custom model that only goes one way...It does that.
If you want it to print multi-pose models...It does that. You could even make it so that the design has pre-built magnet holes.
If you want it to print multi-part customisation and conversion kits for the models you've already printed? Drag and drop, baby 'cause it can print that too.
If you want it to print terrain, it can print that too.
Custom bases? Done.

This is why you should just have a 3D printer. Not just for toy soliders. For literally anything you can think of.
GW could even make mad bank by creating a Hero Forge-equivalent, and letting you make .stls of the models you want (Space Marines to start, would be extremely easy to program because they're all the same). Hero Forge has a great business model.

'But resin isn't as good as plastic!'
...Other miniature companies and entire kick starters don't seem to find that to be an issue.

Sure. On an individual consumer level, 3d printing works, including for sprues. On the industrial scale, producing material to put in stores, the argument is less clear. How long does it take to print a sprue? How many printers would you need to meet the production levels GW has? Once you have that many printers, how much do you need to spend to maintain them and keep them running 24/7? I’d wager that a significant advantage of the injection moulding machines GW uses is that once you have them, they wear out far slower than a printer would.

One area I expect to see GW move into is printers for specific models in shops. There are a lot of niche models that would make sense as an on demand item, rather than as production ahead of time.

[Requizen]

The separate issue is, as ever, the GW pricing structure. My position is that it is an expensive luxury product, and while it is priced at the top end of the market I don’t believe it is unreasonably so once you factor in all the other costs of supply chain and other design elements (aussie tax not withstanding - I don’t know enough about the exchange rates and logistical costs there, but it does seem a significant issue).

This goes back to what I said before - technology changes stuff like this. GW was a luxury product when making and getting stuff like that was difficult, if not impossible, for the average person. What were you going to do, carve minis out of wood? Make your own mold from sand and clay?

Many foods and goods have gone from luxury to commonplace during various stages of industrialization and technological improvements. Clothing, makeup, perfume, cookware, etc. 3D printing is that, but for minis (and stuff like electronics holders, frames, desk doodads, small replacement parts, cosplay accessories, etc).

Imagine if someone nowadays tried to sell you a 16MB Floppy Disk for $30+ claiming that it was a luxury good. That was true in like, the 90s, but technology has moved on.

And now, this: https://www.warhammer-community.com/...-pricing-news/

"Sowwy, we need to increase our prices despite posting record sales for the last two years, in the middle of Brexit and a Pandemic."

They won't go into the red without this. They'd be fine. But it would make their shareholders less profit, so **** em. I'm having a Tyranid Alien Hives Kill Team printed this weekend.

[Fergie0044]

And now, this: https://www.warhammer-community.com/...-pricing-news/

"Sowwy, we need to increase our prices despite posting record sales for the last two years, in the middle of Brexit and a Pandemic."

They won't go into the red without this. They'd be fine. But it would make their shareholders less profit, so **** em. I'm having a Tyranid Alien Hives Kill Team printed this weekend.

Didn't they say that the reason the newer kits would be more expensive (looking at you howling banshees) was to avoid this type of general price hike?

[LeSwordfish]

I won't pretend I'm not disappointed to see prices rising again.

[Grim Portent]

Actually reading it, it looks like the price increase is negligible for everything except specialist stuff like scenery and Blood Bowl.

I highly doubt many people will notice a £1 increase on a box of infantry models for instance.


I'd be slighty annoyed if I was still in a mood to convert BB halflings into 40k ratling chaos cultists, but in practice the price hike isn't going to actually impact anything I want to buy in a meaningful way.

[Mystic Muse]

Who are you quoting here?

Possibly me. I pretty much will only get a resin model if it's a Horus Heresy character. I grealy prefer plastic to resin in all cases.

[Requizen]

Actually reading it, it looks like the price increase is negligible for everything except specialist stuff like scenery and Blood Bowl.

I highly doubt many people will notice a £1 increase on a box of infantry models for instance.


I'd be slighty annoyed if I was still in a mood to convert BB halflings into 40k ratling chaos cultists, but in practice the price hike isn't going to actually impact anything I want to buy in a meaningful way.

A 5% increase doesn't affect a single, medium priced box that much. It sure does affect people buying full armies or are buying big centerpiece models quite a bit.

And it would be very silly to think that it will affect all regions equally. Sorry, Australia! I was actually wrong here, that's on me. I still don't imagine this is going to hit CAN and USA currency equally, I'm fully prepared for a bigger price jump.

[Avaris]

I won't pretend I'm not disappointed to see prices rising again.

Likewise. I do at least appreciate the month’s warning, given that most companies never announce price rises (see, e.g. supermarkets).

Inflation is a thing, costs are silly all over.

[LeSwordfish]

In particular, Energy Bills in the UK are skyrocketing, which I bet is a significant expense for them.

[Grim Portent]

A 5% increase doesn't affect a single, medium priced box that much. It sure does affect people buying full armies or are buying big centerpiece models quite a bit.

And it would be very silly to think that it will affect all regions equally. Sorry, Australia! I was actually wrong here, that's on me. I still don't imagine this is going to hit CAN and USA currency equally, I'm fully prepared for a bigger price jump.

I think my BTs army would only have been about £17 or so more expensive, which is about the same as a McDonald's meal for me and a friend, or two cinema tickets. I might do the math on an Ork Beast Snaggaz army, but I'm not sure they'd wind up much more impacted than the BTs.

As for the US, it already costs an american about twice the amount of man hours to afford a box of space marines than it does me, about 4 hours of minimum wage (£8.91) labour to buy a box in the UK, and 8-9 hours for an american working federal minimum wage based on some quick math, though some states apparently have a minimum wage that works out about the same. Some further checking indicates that the markup in terms of currency exchange for the US is roughly equivalent to a box that costs me £35 costing them £44, or roughly five hours of UK minimum wage, which says more to me about the federal minimum wage than it does about GWs prices, though I'm undoubtedly in a privileged position regarding the pricing since I'm UK based.

In particular, Energy Bills in the UK are skyrocketing, which I bet is a significant expense for them.

I'm pretty sure the heating/lighting for my reptiles going up is going to impact on my finances more than my plastic getting more expensive.

[Wraith]

A 5% increase doesn't affect a single, medium priced box that much. It sure does affect people buying full armies or are buying big centerpiece models quite a bit.

This is what I was thinking. A box of Intercessors going from £35 to £36 doesn't make much difference (although how they worked out that 5% of 35 = 1 is beyond me...) but that's not the stuff they're going to make their money from. Nickel-and-diming people over multiple units and in places where 5-10% cut of a big model makes a much bigger difference - like, say, a shiny new Avatar of Khaine that hasn't had a new sculpt in 30 years.... - that's where the bank is made.

Speaking as a Blood Bowl player, frankly I feel like I want to cry. 20% increase on a team? Better rush out and buy them before April! What do you mean, there's just Halflings and Snotlings left on the shelf? Oh and by the way, WhW aren't doing tournaments for the foreseeable future* so you'll have nowhere to use them, and Blood Bowl 3 just finished its second beta test so we'll probably say goodbye to Specialist Games again in the near future....

*Exact quote from the Blackshirt on the 'phone who books tables, there just isn't any interest.

[Blackhawk748]

The reason people think GW is overpriced is because for 40 bucks I can buy 10 Orks or I can give Warlord 32 bucks and get 40 War of the Roses Mercenaries. I've bought their Romans before and they're very nice minis, and are like half the price or lower from GW, which means I can get my full army for way, WAY cheaper.

And its not like Perry Minis (the guys who make the Mercs) are some tiny noname company. People know who they are and they ship worldwide just like GW does. So why are they so much cheaper? Because GW is overpriced.

[Brookshw]

The reason people think GW is overpriced is because for 40 bucks I can buy 10 Orks or I can give Warlord 32 bucks and get 40 War of the Roses Mercenaries. I've bought their Romans before and they're very nice minis, and are like half the price or lower from GW, which means I can get my full army for way, WAY cheaper.

And its not like Perry Minis (the guys who make the Mercs) are some tiny noname company. People know who they are and they ship worldwide just like GW does. So why are they so much cheaper? Because GW is overpriced.

Disappointingly, a lot of 3d printer companies (at least, the Etsy versions), are using GW pricing to price out their knockoffs/products. Kind of silly, at a certain point, why not just shell out the $400 for a decent 3d printer and have at it yourself? When a pricing model is driving people away, copying that pricing model is hardly ideal, especially when the consumer is already aware of the alternative...

[Blackhawk748]

Disappointingly, a lot of 3d printer companies (at least, the Etsy versions), are using GW pricing to price out their knockoffs/products. Kind of silly, at a certain point, why not just shell out the $400 for a decent 3d printer and have at it yourself? When a pricing model is driving people away, copying that pricing model is hardly ideal, especially when the consumer is already aware of the alternative...

I will not pretend to understand Etsy pricing. Some things are a price I understand and others... I just can't help but ask how they think its worth that much. Particularly when they can see the cheaper version on the same site.

[Brookshw]

IParticularly when they can see the cheaper version on the same site.

Heh, I've noticed that and laughed pretty hard. So your model is a 200% markup of that guys, and there's nothing indicating you have a better printer/material/whatever? Uh huh...

[Cheesegear]

Inflation is a thing, costs are silly all over.

Partial disagree; You'll notice that GW is raising prices in regions that it isn't already failing in, and it's not raising prices on tools and paints (but doesn't shipping affect those, too!?).

When someone walks into their FLGS and sees Army Painter Speedpaints, and GW Contrasts next to each other, what do you think happens if GW is stupid enough to raise the prices on their paints? That's right, the market (that's you), looks at Speedpaints and Contrasts, and picks the cheaper one. GW would be actually stupid to raise prices on paints just after Speedpaints come out with some of the best reviews I've ever seen - even from the non-shills!

The problem is capitalism.

The problem is that there are simps and whales who are not voting with their wallet. There is an alternative. We just spent the last two pages talking about it.

You don't get to say 'It's a luxury product that you pay luxury prices for', and 'capitalism bad' in the same breath.

The correct thing to say is: The price is too high, and I'm not paying it, and neither should you. We're the market, and we decide what the product is worth, and it's not worth that, and it doesn't matter how 'luxury' the supplier thinks it is.

It used to be only specialist engineers and manufacturers who screamed at us that plastic isn't worth this much. Molds are not worth that much.
They were specialist manufacturers. What do they know? They're working at industrial scale for real business. Toy soldiers is different, don't you know? Let's not listen to them.

Now? Any idiot with a 3D printer can tell you that plastic is not worth that much, and molds are irrelevant because you can straight CAD-to-table now. They are not specialist manufacturers or engineers. They are consumers. They, are us*. Yet people are spurning the economical, almost future-proof alternative to the corporate (pseudo-)monopoly...For reasons, whilst in the same breath saying that the corporate pseudo-monopoly is bad and needs to be addressed.
*Grassroots? Is that the word I'm looking for?

Are people just so hooked onto GW products that they can't stop, wont stop?

Are we beyond the point where 'plastic crack' is even metaphorical anymore?

[LeSwordfish]

"The codex is obnoxious to get through, and the weird rules are annoying to parse" seems like the sort of thing that should crop up in a credible review.

Oh, wait, silly me - it's a #Sponsored review, gotta play nice or eat blacklist forever after.

Right. I hope it doesn't bite him in the arse. But it feels like it should.
If GW doesn't enforce that contract...Then it's not enforced...And when that happens...

Even if he doesn't get in legal trouble per se, I imagine he isn't going to be getting any more pre-review copies in the future.

Yeah. Sure. GW is just giving you review copies for you not to review out of the goodness of their heart.
That makes sense.

[...]

My best faith reading of the situation, given some of his other videos recently, this may be an intentional burning of bridges. I can't think of any other reason why you'd non-'review' the Codex the way he did. It would have been better to literally just put a video up saying 'I'm sick. I can't review this Codex right now...' and then sweep it under the rug as you continue to review whatever comes next, and then never address it.

Incidentally this guy's Tau codex review went up, the same day everyone else's did.

[Requizen]

Yet people are spurning the economical, almost future-proof alternative to the corporate (pseudo-)monopoly...For reasons, whilst in the same breath saying that the corporate pseudo-monopoly is bad and needs to be addressed.
*Grassroots? Is that the word I'm looking for?

Are people just so hooked onto GW products that they can't stop, wont stop?

Are we beyond the point where 'plastic crack' is even metaphorical anymore?

To play the opposite side of this, defending and sticking with GW is also tied up in other things. Warhammer has (arguably, subjectively, of course) the best universe for tabletop gaming. At the very least, one that is among the broadest/deepest/most recognizable. It also has the strongest worldwide community, for better or worse. Feeling compelled to support and/or defend the thing you love is a pretty basic human instinct. Heck, I still defend GW when it comes to lore stuff and their community building, which isn't always perfect but usually has good motives in mind.

Which is why I rarely try to lead people with "GW sucks, try 3D printing and other games", but usually "check out these great alternative models! They might fit your theme better, or at least until they replace the old sculpts" and "You know, it's fun to branch out from Warhammer when it gets a bit stale". People usually realize their blinders a bit more easily once they experience things in a more controlled capacity.

[Brookshw]

Anyone know if the original 40k/WFB designers are still doing anything? Specifically non-gw things.

[Cheesegear]

Anyone know if the original 40k/WFB designers are still doing anything? Specifically non-gw things.

Ian Livingstone is now Sir Ian Livingstone, CBE. He's been doing... A lot.
Rick Priestly is an owner of Warlord Games (...that's Bolt Action)
Rich Halliwell is dead.

Andy Chambers has written for Blizzard (Starcraft II), a bunch of stuff for Fantasy Flight Games (the 40K RPGs), Dust and Dropzone Commander. Last I heard Andy Chambers was doing a bunch of **** for Blood Red Skies, which literally nobody around me plays. And he has been working on some stuff with Osprey Games, which make Frostgrave and Oathmark among other things.

I've never touched the Frostgrave game - from what I understand it's like Mordheim? However, I did buy a whole bunch of the miniatures to play D&D with.

[Blackhawk748]

Anyone know if the original 40k/WFB designers are still doing anything? Specifically non-gw things.

Pretty sure a few went on to form Mantic. Don't know how many of the original crew are there but I know a bunch of designers went and made Kings of War.

[9mm]

More fomo for the plastic throne.

my headline is probably hyperbolic, but production issues are a thing.