Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

[Cheesegear]

Were Lords Of War even a thing when the Trygon first came out, back in 5th ed?

The Trygon first appeared in Imperial Armour 4. Gargantuans and Titanics at that time were exclusively reserved for Apocalypse games. They had no FO slot because Apocalypse didn't use role slots. Anything IA before #7 I don't have. So I can't confirm where Trygons fit in the Tyranid army when they were first made.

[Requizen]

How about something topical?

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[Grim Portent]

Gargoyles as Troops is... weird, though I suppose they stack up terribly against the rest of the Fast Attack in the Nid Codex so at least in Troops they have a prayer of being played. Genestealers are just heading back to their original spot.

Trygons and Mawlocs in Fast attack feel weird, but I guess its to try and decrowd Heavy Support.

Gargoyles as Troops makes sense to me, they're the only gaunt variant that isn't Troops, and their fluff tends to have them be fielded in gigantic swarms in a way that FA has never really allowed.

Trygon and Mawloc in FA sounded weird to me at first, but it kind of makes sense to consider them as 'fast monsters' because of the whole burrowing thing. Most of the Deep Strike/SUA units I can think of have been Elites or Fast Attack since as far back as 5th edition, so it actually feels kind of right.

[hamishspence]

Yes, in Apocalypse which is where the term came from. A few other Codexes have brought a LoW to the normal game as a Heavy Support, then made it a LoW once we got those. Niuds are odd in that the Trygon didn't go back.

The Trygon first appeared in Imperial Armour 4. Gargantuans and Titanics at that time were exclusively reserved for Apocalypse games. They had no FO slot because Apocalypse didn't use role slots. Anything IA before #7 I don't have. So I can't confirm where Trygons fit in the Tyranid army when they were first made.

The classic Tyranid Monstrosities rules from White Dwarf were the first time there were (optional) rules for creatures with Mass Points in the main game - way back in 2001 - later included in the first Chapter Approved compilation book.

2006's IA4: The Anphelion Project had the Scythed Hierodule, Barbed Hierodule, and Trygon, as Gargantuan Creatures that each took up a Heavy Support slot (all had between 1 and 2 Mass Points - 2 for the Hierodules, 1 for the Trygon) - whereas the Harridan and the Hierophant were "must be taken as a separate detachment of 1-3, like Super-Heavy war machines" and had 3 Mass Points.

"Imperial Armour Update - 2005" which came out between IA3 and IA4, had rules for the other four, but not the Trygon.

The Apocalypse rulebook itself specifically says "Trygon rules are in IA4" for a formation that included the Trygon but not rules for it - which suggests that IA4 was out a little bit before Apocalypse itself was (IA4 was December 2006, Apocalypse was October 2007).

The Imperial Armour Apocalypse book was the first to provide a statblock for the Trygon (and Harridan, and Scythed Hierodule) that made them Gargantuan Creatures without Mass Points - like the Apocalypse rulebook had done with the Hierophant and Barbed Hierodule.

So, leaving aside the Optional rules for Tyranid Monstrosities, the Trygon was a Heavy Support unit first (Imperial Armour 4), then a "reserved for Apocalypse games only" unit (after IA: Apocalypse came out with updated rules that dropped the Mass Point system entirely for all big Tyranid beasts) and then it went back to being a Heavy Support (while losing the benefits of the Gargantuan Creature rules) in the 5e Tyranid Codex.

[Lord Torath]

I was always rather surprised that GW thought that the snake-bodied tyranids (like raveners) were faster than the biped and quadruped tyranids (genestealers, warriors, termigants). The world's fasted snake has a top speed of around 9 mph (15 kph) Cheetahs are six times faster, and the world record for a human is 24 mph (39 kph).

[hamishspence]

Hormagaunts, at least, were usually of comparable speed early on (sometimes faster on the charge but slower on the move, sometimes equally fast at both) - it wasn't till more recently that Raveners got a significant speed advantage over them.

[Grim Portent]

It's an imagery thing I think, 'fast as a striking serpent' type of stuff. In a lot of cultures snakes are both associated with being slow and sluggish, and with being extremely fast at the same time depending on the context, in fiction they tend to get the association with speed because it's more useful for most narratives.

Small snakes do also feel weirdly fast when you work with them in person, they can slip out of your hands very suddenly and dissapear into the underbrush or behind furniture in a jiffy.

Hormagaunts, at least, were usually of comparable speed early on (sometimes faster on the charge but slower on the move, sometimes equally fast at both) - it wasn't till more recently that Raveners got a significant speed advantage over them.

Gonna take a guess and say that was when all units types got standardised speeds, pretty sure the grognards in my local mentioned older editions with different movement characteristics. When I started Raveners were Beasts with a 12" standard move and a reroll for running, and Hormagaunts were Infantry with a 6" move and a reroll for running distance.

[Lord Torath]

When I started, hormagaunts had a 6" move (12" run/charge) with a 6" jump, while most other infantry had a 4" move. Then the next edition came around and everyone got a 6" move, but if I remember correctly raveners got a bonus 3 inches. That was 3rd edition though, so I make no promises regarding the accuracy of my memory.

[hamishspence]

3e Tyranid codex introduced Ravenors and gave them 9 inch standard move, 9 inch charge (whereas Hormagaunt had 6 inch standard move, the Fleet rule allowing them to move 1d6 inches in the Shooting phase (ignoring penalties for difficult terrain), and 12 inch charge (which was slowed down by difficult terrain).

So a lucky Hormagaunt could move as much as 24 inches in 1 turn compared to 18 inches for a Ravenor.

4e Tyranid Codex made both Hormaguants and Ravenors Beasts.

5e codex took the Beasts rule away from Hormagaunts but gave them a slight boost to Run. From then on, Ravenors were always the faster ones.

When I started Raveners were Beasts with a 12" standard move and a reroll for running, and Hormagaunts were Infantry with a 6" move and a reroll for running distance.

That was probably 6e or 7e (5e and earlier Beasts were fairly slow in the Movement phase- their speed was mostly when Assaulting).

[Grim Portent]

That was probably 6e or 7e (5e and earlier Beasts were fairly slow in the Movement phase- their speed was mostly when Assaulting).

It was 5th when I started, you sure beasts didn't already have their 12" move? I probably still have my core rules somewhere around here, but knowing me it's on a shelf under a pile of other books from past editions.

[hamishspence]

They didn't - 5e was the book with the double-headed hammer and on top of it, a pic of the Emperor wrestling a snake with a head on each end, to represent Chaos. Also the background on the cover was fiery orange. It introduced the "Run" rule (everyone, not just "fleet" units can run 1d6 inches in the shooting phase, but also had the limitation that Running units may not Assault).

4e's cover hammer, had an eagle head on the back of the hammer, and a skull on top of the hammer.

6e was the really thick one (the first to allow Beasts to move 12" in the Movement phase), 7e was the one that split up the rulebook, fluff book, and painted models books into 3.

[Cheesegear]

It's an imagery thing I think, 'fast as a striking serpent' type of stuff. In a lot of cultures snakes are both associated with being slow and sluggish, and with being extremely fast at the same time depending on the context...

As someone who deals with snakes in my yard on a semi-regular basis...They are both.

Snakes are reptiles - cold-blooded animals. On cold days they are slow as ****. On warm/hot days (of which there are many), they're fast enough that you definitely want to keep your shovel handy. Most of the time, however, when I'm working in the garden I have several predatory birds watching me. If a snake sticks its head out of the grass...It's getting swooped. Birds will protect me from snakes.

[Mystic Muse]

On a related note, I would greatly appreciate an updated model for The Red Terror, and Raveners in some sort of package deal.

I really like Raveners, but they cost a lot for models I would 95% be getting for aesthetic reasons.

[hamishspence]

They're cheaper than Tyranid Warriors though. I've been doing some comparisons and Ravenors appear to be some of the cheapest 40k multi-wound 3 model boxes that GW has at the moment.

[Wraith]

New thread, title unrelated.

The Tyrant of Badab ain't got nothin' on me.