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2022-03-09, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
The Trygon first appeared in Imperial Armour 4. Gargantuans and Titanics at that time were exclusively reserved for Apocalypse games. They had no FO slot because Apocalypse didn't use role slots. Anything IA before #7 I don't have. So I can't confirm where Trygons fit in the Tyranid army when they were first made.
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2022-03-09, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
How about something topical?
Thread XLIII: Please don't 3D print this thread
Thread XLIII: Does fun rise with inflation?
Thread XLIII: Now with Balance Dataslate!
Thread XLIII: Proxies for the Proxy God! Resin for the Resin Throne!
Thread XLIII: Warhammer Plus? Nah, Warhammer Modulus
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2022-03-09, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
Gargoyles as Troops makes sense to me, they're the only gaunt variant that isn't Troops, and their fluff tends to have them be fielded in gigantic swarms in a way that FA has never really allowed.
Trygon and Mawloc in FA sounded weird to me at first, but it kind of makes sense to consider them as 'fast monsters' because of the whole burrowing thing. Most of the Deep Strike/SUA units I can think of have been Elites or Fast Attack since as far back as 5th edition, so it actually feels kind of right.Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2022-03-09, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
The classic Tyranid Monstrosities rules from White Dwarf were the first time there were (optional) rules for creatures with Mass Points in the main game - way back in 2001 - later included in the first Chapter Approved compilation book.
2006's IA4: The Anphelion Project had the Scythed Hierodule, Barbed Hierodule, and Trygon, as Gargantuan Creatures that each took up a Heavy Support slot (all had between 1 and 2 Mass Points - 2 for the Hierodules, 1 for the Trygon) - whereas the Harridan and the Hierophant were "must be taken as a separate detachment of 1-3, like Super-Heavy war machines" and had 3 Mass Points.
"Imperial Armour Update - 2005" which came out between IA3 and IA4, had rules for the other four, but not the Trygon.
The Apocalypse rulebook itself specifically says "Trygon rules are in IA4" for a formation that included the Trygon but not rules for it - which suggests that IA4 was out a little bit before Apocalypse itself was (IA4 was December 2006, Apocalypse was October 2007).
The Imperial Armour Apocalypse book was the first to provide a statblock for the Trygon (and Harridan, and Scythed Hierodule) that made them Gargantuan Creatures without Mass Points - like the Apocalypse rulebook had done with the Hierophant and Barbed Hierodule.
So, leaving aside the Optional rules for Tyranid Monstrosities, the Trygon was a Heavy Support unit first (Imperial Armour 4), then a "reserved for Apocalypse games only" unit (after IA: Apocalypse came out with updated rules that dropped the Mass Point system entirely for all big Tyranid beasts) and then it went back to being a Heavy Support (while losing the benefits of the Gargantuan Creature rules) in the 5e Tyranid Codex.Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-03-09 at 12:42 PM.
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2022-03-09, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
I was always rather surprised that GW thought that the snake-bodied tyranids (like raveners) were faster than the biped and quadruped tyranids (genestealers, warriors, termigants). The world's fasted snake has a top speed of around 9 mph (15 kph) Cheetahs are six times faster, and the world record for a human is 24 mph (39 kph).
Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
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Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season
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2022-03-09, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
Hormagaunts, at least, were usually of comparable speed early on (sometimes faster on the charge but slower on the move, sometimes equally fast at both) - it wasn't till more recently that Raveners got a significant speed advantage over them.
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2022-03-09, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
It's an imagery thing I think, 'fast as a striking serpent' type of stuff. In a lot of cultures snakes are both associated with being slow and sluggish, and with being extremely fast at the same time depending on the context, in fiction they tend to get the association with speed because it's more useful for most narratives.
Small snakes do also feel weirdly fast when you work with them in person, they can slip out of your hands very suddenly and dissapear into the underbrush or behind furniture in a jiffy.
Gonna take a guess and say that was when all units types got standardised speeds, pretty sure the grognards in my local mentioned older editions with different movement characteristics. When I started Raveners were Beasts with a 12" standard move and a reroll for running, and Hormagaunts were Infantry with a 6" move and a reroll for running distance.Last edited by Grim Portent; 2022-03-09 at 01:19 PM.
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2022-03-09, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
When I started, hormagaunts had a 6" move (12" run/charge) with a 6" jump, while most other infantry had a 4" move. Then the next edition came around and everyone got a 6" move, but if I remember correctly raveners got a bonus 3 inches. That was 3rd edition though, so I make no promises regarding the accuracy of my memory.
Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season
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2022-03-09, 01:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
3e Tyranid codex introduced Ravenors and gave them 9 inch standard move, 9 inch charge (whereas Hormagaunt had 6 inch standard move, the Fleet rule allowing them to move 1d6 inches in the Shooting phase (ignoring penalties for difficult terrain), and 12 inch charge (which was slowed down by difficult terrain).
So a lucky Hormagaunt could move as much as 24 inches in 1 turn compared to 18 inches for a Ravenor.
4e Tyranid Codex made both Hormaguants and Ravenors Beasts.
5e codex took the Beasts rule away from Hormagaunts but gave them a slight boost to Run. From then on, Ravenors were always the faster ones.
That was probably 6e or 7e (5e and earlier Beasts were fairly slow in the Movement phase- their speed was mostly when Assaulting).Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-03-09 at 01:56 PM.
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2022-03-09, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2022-03-09, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
They didn't - 5e was the book with the double-headed hammer and on top of it, a pic of the Emperor wrestling a snake with a head on each end, to represent Chaos. Also the background on the cover was fiery orange. It introduced the "Run" rule (everyone, not just "fleet" units can run 1d6 inches in the shooting phase, but also had the limitation that Running units may not Assault).
4e's cover hammer, had an eagle head on the back of the hammer, and a skull on top of the hammer.
6e was the really thick one (the first to allow Beasts to move 12" in the Movement phase), 7e was the one that split up the rulebook, fluff book, and painted models books into 3.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2022-03-10, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
As someone who deals with snakes in my yard on a semi-regular basis...They are both.
Snakes are reptiles - cold-blooded animals. On cold days they are slow as ****. On warm/hot days (of which there are many), they're fast enough that you definitely want to keep your shovel handy. Most of the time, however, when I'm working in the garden I have several predatory birds watching me. If a snake sticks its head out of the grass...It's getting swooped. Birds will protect me from snakes.
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2022-03-10, 12:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
On a related note, I would greatly appreciate an updated model for The Red Terror, and Raveners in some sort of package deal.
I really like Raveners, but they cost a lot for models I would 95% be getting for aesthetic reasons.
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2022-03-10, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
They're cheaper than Tyranid Warriors though. I've been doing some comparisons and Ravenors appear to be some of the cheapest 40k multi-wound 3 model boxes that GW has at the moment.
Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-03-10 at 01:37 AM.
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2022-03-10, 04:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All
New thread, title unrelated.
The Tyrant of Badab ain't got nothin' on me.~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
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