Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

[Artanis]

Sounds like GW having difficulty designing rules that make sense and work.

I've given a WW2 game a go (Flames of War) where tanks are immune to infantry weapons and it's perfectly acceptable to see a Panzer company of nothing but tanks go up against an infantry company with no tanks - and for the infantry to win.

The infantry does have anti-tank guns, which are usually the first target if the tanks, but the infantry can dig in which makes them very hard to kill and the only way to kill them is assault them, which leaves the tanks vulnerable to the infantry.

That's the impression I'm getting too. A lot of "if done well, (insert rule here) is good, but GW did it really badly, so the rule wound up sucking".

[LansXero]

That's the impression I'm getting too. A lot of "if done well, (insert rule here) is good, but GW did it really badly, so the rule wound up sucking".

If done well, you get a simulationist ruleset that fits niche interests and tiny communities. GW did it in a way that revived the game, edged several competitors out of a market they were trying to carve for themselves, and has kept them rolling in cash for the past few years.

I'd love to be wrong that way.

[Renegade Paladin]

A minimum sized unit of Eradicators with a multimelta does an average of 12.833 damage to a T8 target and costs 145 points. So with that one unit we're murdering a Russ (costing 155 points minimum, more if you give it actual gear or it's a tank commander) or bracketing a superheavy every single turn. Meanwhile that minimum Russ, should it be so fortunate as to go first, will kill one of them (if it's the best variant you can get for that minimum cost, i.e. the Executioner; sucks to be you if you went for a Vanquisher or Eradicator). To be fair, the Baneblade would casually kill them right back, but considering it costs minimum three times as much it bloody well should, and it has to dedicate its main firepower to do it. If it's bracketed and miraculously the Marines don't dedicate another unit to finishing the job, it has to dedicate literally all of its weapons to do the job on average. The math is more than a little off.

[Cheesegear]

That's the impression I'm getting too. A lot of "if done well, (insert rule here) is good, but GW did it really badly, so the rule wound up sucking".

You talking 'bout Crusade? Or Secondaries?

[Renegade Paladin]

Of note: Battlescribe currently has a bug wherein it charges an extra 50 points for the Baneblade's included twin heavy bolter. I have used the correct points values per the Munitorum Manual update currently on the FAQ section of Warhammer Community.

[Artanis]

You talking 'bout Crusade? Or Secondaries?

I more meant that's the impression I get looking at the current discussion.

[Wraith]

You talking 'bout Crusade? Or Secondaries?

The use of "or" in that sentence technically requires the answer to be "no".

[Renegade Paladin]

GeeDubs is hiring for lead 40k designer. Just saying.

[Destro_Yersul]

Perfect. All I have to do is move to Nottingham, and then I can make the game perfectly balanced with no exploits.

[Renegade Paladin]

Perfect. All I have to do is move to Nottingham, and then I can make the game perfectly balanced with no exploits.

I will tremble the day the Spiffing Brit is actually in charge of developing a game, much less one I actually play.

[Blackhawk748]

GeeDubs is hiring for lead 40k designer. Just saying.

I'm a Yank so I'm out pretty much immediately.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm a Yank so I'm out pretty much immediately.

Same. But still.

[Destro_Yersul]

I will tremble the day the Spiffing Brit is actually in charge of developing a game, much less one I actually play.

All you need to do is get your nice hot cup of Yorkshire Tea and give Games Workshop all your money, and then you too can avoid being forced to only play against Reanu Keeves.

[Cheesegear]

Played a game today with my Imperial Fists vs. Sororitas.

A very close game; 68-52.

Despite the Imperial Fists' modus operandi centering around Bolt-weapons, I have to say that Imperial Fists are still Space Marines, and Assault Terminators are just too good at what they do, and Aggressors still make Shootynators look like a bad, bad joke.

My army had two Troops units - a minimum unit of Infiltrators and Intercessors. Not enough to fill a Battalion. But almost all my Infantry were Objective Secured anyway, because Space Marines. What made it a good game was that I was playing one of the worst - if not the worst - Space Marine Chapter, against another army that plays like bad Space Marines, but bad Space Marines are still Space Marines and better than almost anything else anyway.

[Trafalgar]

GeeDubs is hiring for lead 40k designer. Just saying.

I don't know, does GW give it's 40k designers a decent 401k plan?

[snowblizz]

I don't know, does GW give it's 40k designers a decent 401k plan?

It's more of a M42.1 plan. It may include Orks with choppas.


or

Yes. But you have to spend it on GW product.

or

Maybe. Depends on if those Finecast models appreciate in value.



I must say, that has to be one of the most thankless jobs in the universe for anyone who is a massive fan of 40k. You'd be there thinking "I'll fix this!" only to find that you are stymied by corporate at every turn yet get all the blame form the community.

[Cheesegear]

I don't know, does GW give it's 40k designers a decent 401k plan?

You would have to look up British employment law.
But from the job description, is seems that the main benefit is pro rata profit sharing, and shares, rather than a retirement plan. Which seems fairly common when you're hired on a per project basis like GW staffers seem to be. You get more money if your project does well, and, after the project is over, you're outta there.

I must say, that has to be one of the most thankless jobs in the universe for anyone who is a massive fan of 40k...

I have many, many questions about this sentence:

Job Description
At Games Workshop we are looking for people who will do their best to understand the needs of the company and to put those needs first when they are at work.

It's sentences like that that make me think of all the other ex-designers who have very few good things to say about their time there.

You'd be there thinking "I'll fix this!" only to find that you are stymied by corporate at every turn yet get all the blame form the community.

That's why GW took the names of designers off the covers.
You get none of the credit for your work (in public), but, you get none of the blame (in public).
So it all works out.

[Blackhawk748]

I must say, that has to be one of the most thankless jobs in the universe for anyone who is a massive fan of 40k. You'd be there thinking "I'll fix this!" only to find that you are stymied by corporate at every turn yet get all the blame form the community.

There's a reason why they go through so many people. It's a grinder over there and very, very few people have anything good to say about having been there.

Mantic exists for a reason.

[snowblizz]

You would have to look up British employment law.
But from the job description, is seems that the main benefit is pro rata profit sharing, and shares, rather than a retirement plan. Which seems fairly common when you're hired on a per project basis like GW staffers seem to be. You get more money if your project does well, and, after the project is over, you're outta there.

In Europe retirement plans tend to be state managed. Often supplemented with various private or semi-private schemes. The UK doesn't seem to be any exception in this regard.
I can't opine on it exactly, but from my casual look the employee contributes to his/her own (state) pension in the UK. Some systems has both employer and employee contributing as well.

In other words, you don't look to the employer for a pension so it won't be listed there. Same as there won't be any mention of "benefits" since the UK has the NHS.

It's sentences like that that make me think of all the other ex-designers who have very few good things to say about their time there.

For the 20 years I actively kept tabs on GW they would often hire people with a passion for the game. It was often one of their selling points when hiring people to staff stores at minimum wage. "You'd be working with what you love! How cool is that!". People would find out it's not cool at all.

Funnily enough that's a sentence that works as a warning to all those who might still think their job would be a hobby. That's how I take it.

There's a reason why they go through so many people. It's a grinder over there and very, very few people have anything good to say about having been there.

Mantic exists for a reason.

I know. Which is naturally why I mentioned it in the way I did.

[Fergie0044]

There's a reason why they go through so many people. It's a grinder over there and very, very few people have anything good to say about having been there.

Could you point me towards any first hand quotes about this? Not that I don't believe you, but I'm now very curious to hear what working at GW would be like.

[LansXero]

For the 20 years I actively kept tabs on GW they would often hire people with a passion for the game. It was often one of their selling points when hiring people to staff stores at minimum wage. "You'd be working with what you love! How cool is that!". People would find out it's not cool at all.

There's a reason why they go through so many people. It's a grinder over there

My social resentment / boomer streak may be showing, but 'lead developer for games' and 'grind' are hard to combine in my mind. My competitors will tell you how hard and demanding our job (independent retail) is, but I took it instead of a 'real' job because of how easy it is and how lazy I can be while still pushing the business forward.

Moving a creative individual with passion for hobbies (which likely means lax work ethic and plenty of time 'wasted' in silly things like having a life) into a 'grinder' with set schedules, firm deadlines, no concern for emotional reactions and no identity as a person is likely to cause a clash and let them hollow and broken after a while to be discarded. But, for most people working similar 9-5 jobs in accounting, public administration and other dead-end, by the numbers, repetitive drone work its probably going to seem like a pretty regular job.

I remember the first month of doing warehouse work. I would end up so tired on the weekends, mentally and phisically, to event want to touch my then GF. D&D went out of the window because even though I got out by 6 and we would normally meet at 7-8, there was 0 energy and 0 wish to do anything other than sleep right after. But, my co-workers, who didnt have a soft easy life like mine growing up, would exit the plant joking and go play soccer right after for hourse, as I walked my destroyed self back home; after a match or two they'd go drink a couple of beers or share a meal together then be back the next day at 6:00 a.m., entirely fresh.

[Wraith]

Unlike the posts above, I *do* live in Nottingham and while none of my own I have plenty of experience talking to people who have worked for GW.

Unless you're working in the upstairs offices - Management, HR, Marketing, etc - or in the foundry making models, Warhammer World is just minimum wage retail work. Nottingham is a big University town so they have more than their fair share of students who work during term-time and then move on, and otherwise it's the same as any other shop. The benefits aren't great - a 50% discount on GW stock is pretty much it.

The biggest complaint is that it's really, really hard to get a job and work 30 hours per week doing your hobby, meet sales targets shilling stuff when you know it's taking advantage of kids and their birthday money, and still enjoy your hobby afterwards. This is not unique to GW, if you loved Pokemon cards and were forced to play intro games to 12 year olds for 8 hours per day you'd soon hate the sight of them, too. Burnout happens when you realise that you can never stop working, because even your down-time is actively involved in the thing that you have to do at work.

Working in the smaller stores is the same but worse - smaller workforce means less cover, so hours can be ridiculous and head office doesn't care because all they want is their minimum sales budget met. I've heard endless stories of Store managers working 12 hours a day, 5 days per week, because they otherwise only have the budget for part-time employees and can't hope to cover the whole rota. Typical big-business penny-pinching that you'll probably see in any big franchise - I certainly did, when i worked in electrical sales.

The biggest complaints I heard about GW were the management being unreasonable. Particularly turn-of-the-millenium, it was very much that they had drank the Kool Aid and "passion for the product" had unfortunately become "nothing matters but the company line" and more than a few guys I know were driven out simply because it wasn't a nice place to work - short breaks, too many vacations denied, inflexible targets, written up for minor mistakes, etc.

A culture very much adopted form the higher management, who invariably drove out their own founding members who went off to found companies like Battlefront, Warlord and Mantic. But again, nothing unique to GW and - as far as i am aware - significantly improved nowadays since the previous director was overthrown for someone who wasn't just interested in "running a toy company".
Retail and warehouse staff almost always left the company miserable, but I know a couple who are off the shop floor and they're almost universally quite happy to be there. But then they're not the ones running intro games or having to hit KPIs every week, I guess.

[Blackhawk748]

Could you point me towards any first hand quotes about this? Not that I don't believe you, but I'm now very curious to hear what working at GW would be like.

Just incidental statements I've heard here and on other boards, plus the conversations I've had with Mantic designers. Like, they never said they hated being at GW, most actually said they enjoyed it, up until management changed and the head turned into Chief Corporate Stooge.

Oh and killing WHFB. They were very unhappy about that, particularly right before TW Warhammer was coming out.

[Renegade Paladin]

One of the co-owners of the shop deems Guard orders too good and thinks they're going to be made into stratagems in the next codex. Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

[Forum Explorer]

One of the co-owners of the shop deems Guard orders too good and thinks they're going to be made into stratagems in the next codex. Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

If anything they are so weak that they could be shoved into stratagems and Guard get something else instead.

[AdmiralCheez]

Just finished my first 1250 point game with my Kabal Drukhari list vs. my friend's Custodes. Made it to the end of turn 3 before the shop we were in closed, and we had to call it. I didn't win, but it was a good game. Some highlights:

- The razorwing jetfighter ended up being just a tourist plane. Never dealt damage, never took damage, and only got shot at a few times, so it mostly flew around and watched the whole game. The dice were not in its favor.
- The command raider with the Archon on board was immediately locked down in melee and got punched to death, exploded, and injured a lot of enemy forces.
- The Archon's 2+ invulnerable save shield failed immediately with a roll of 1, command point reroll also rolled a 1. So after his ride got destroyed, he got hit pretty hard and didn't make it.
- The other raider did some damage to the enemy troops and took an objective before getting punched to death on top of a hill by the giant dreadnought. The Kabalites on board had to make an emergency disembark, of which 3 died after falling off a cliff while jumping out of a burning wreck.
- A unit of five incubi soloed the warlord and cut it to pieces before he used a stratagem to go down fighting, taking the incubi with him. This sacrifice allowed the reavers to escape the war lord's ire and complete a secondary objective.
- The ravager's dark lances and disintegrators were the star of the show, dealing a lot of damage and wounds to his dreadnought.
- A lone sybarite, the sole survivor of a kabalite unit, surrounded on all sides by enemies, bravely stood against them with his blast pistol and power sword.

All in all, not a bad game for the first run with a bunch of new units to me, running with new rules. First game over 1,000 points too, with secondaries and stratagems being used, so a "proper" game some might say. I did like the variety and options available at that point level, but it was definitely a longer game than I preferred, especially since the store was closing.

[Renegade Paladin]

If anything they are so weak that they could be shoved into stratagems and Guard get something else instead.

He plays Chaos Marines. If he could give the same buffs to Marines, yeah, they'd be too good, but they're attached to squishy T3, Sv5+ bodies.

[druid91]

One of the co-owners of the shop deems Guard orders too good and thinks they're going to be made into stratagems in the next codex. Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

I mean to be fair. Overwatch got made into a stratagem. It's not like Overwatch was excessively good.

[Renegade Paladin]

I mean to be fair. Overwatch got made into a stratagem. It's not like Overwatch was excessively good.

Depends what you were doing it with. PLEASE charge a heavy flamer Hellhound. (That's how I won a game against an early 8th meta Stormboyz spam Ork list back at the start of the edition.)

[Forum Explorer]

I mean to be fair. Overwatch got made into a stratagem. It's not like Overwatch was excessively good.

It kinda was. Not on everything, but some armies abused it horribly.