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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    And actually I think you've nailed it, in a way that I've never considered before. I know my rules. I know my army list. I know my opponent's army list. This frees up my brain to think - and talk - about anything else during the game. The more me and my opponents learn rules, the more fun we have, because we actually aren't concentrating on when or what to shoot or fight with, which lets us have fun in other, non-game ways, whilst still getting a 2000 Point game done in less than 2.5 hours.

    I've never thought of it that way before. But now that I recognise it, it's really obvious.
    Not intending to be rude... But that frankly sounds like you don't really enjoy the game.

    You're treating the game as a chore to be gotten through, rather than a fun game to be enjoyed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarZero View Post
    I like the "hobo" in there.
    "Hey, you just got 10000gp! You going to buy a fully staffed mansion or something?"
    "Nah, I'll upgrade my +2 sword to a +3 sword and sleep in my cloak."

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Not intending to be rude... But that frankly sounds like you don't really enjoy the game.
    Actually, it sounds like I enjoy and play the game so much it's become second-nature to me, to the point where I don't even have to think about it anymore.

    What I don't like, is the direction that the game is going in; Which is tough, melee units. I already played through 6th Ed. No thank you. If there's anything I don't like about the game, it's the stale meta.

    You're treating the game as a chore to be gotten through
    Learning how to play is a chore. Done that.
    Reading my Codex two, three, four, five times is a chore. Done that. (This was mostly done on the toilet, so it's probably not as bad as it sounds)
    Learning my and/or the meta, is a chore. Done that.
    Making sure I haven't thrown half a grand in the toilet by buying models that don't work, is a chore. Done that.

    rather than a fun game to be enjoyed.
    So I described how I have fun playing the game now, inasmuch that the game is no longer a barrier to social interaction because I'm not constantly having to read my Codex/Rulebook, or second-guess myself, which frees me to talk to my opponent during the game...I'm having fun wrong?
    ...Wait, did I just get Wrongfun'd?

    No. I've done my chores, to the best that I know how, and now I play the game whilst talking to my opponent - my friend or not. Isn't 'social aspect' is what casuals say is the most important part of the game!? Unless you're using my argument; Which is that if you're using 40K to hang out with your friends (rather than your 'opponents'), you could be doing anything else, probably cheaper, and have the same - if not better - experience, because you're friends and really you should be able to do anything you want. Just go for beers.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2021-04-13 at 09:29 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Learning how to play is a chore. Done that.
    Reading my Codex two, three, four, five times is a chore. Done that. (This was mostly done on the toilet, so it's probably not as bad as it sounds)
    Learning my and/or the meta, is a chore. Done that.
    Making sure I haven't thrown half a grand in the toilet by buying models that don't work, is a chore. Done that.



    So I described how I have fun playing the game now, inasmuch that the game is no longer a barrier to social interaction because I'm not constantly having to read my Codex/Rulebook, or second-guess myself, which frees me to talk to my opponent during the game...I'm having fun wrong?
    ...Wait, did I just get Wrongfun'd?

    No. I've done my chores, to the best that I know how, and now I play the game whilst talking to my opponent - my friend or not. Isn't 'social aspect' is what casuals say is the most important part of the game!? Unless you're using my argument; Which is that if you're using 40K to hang out with your friends (rather than your 'opponents'), you could be doing anything else, probably cheaper, and have the same - if not better - experience, because you're friends and really you should be able to do anything you want. Just go for beers.
    Except it's neither. You're describing not knowing the game as a barrier to social interaction. And maybe to a degree it is. But you then follow it up by saying that once you're knowledgeable about the game you can think and talk about anything but.

    That doesn't sound like the game is something you enjoy. That sounds like the socialization is something you enjoy, and the game is your excuse to get together.

    I enjoy the game. When playing, we generally talk about the game. About the lore of the setting, making up funny stories about events as they happen. Giving names to models who pull off feats of glory against great odds.

    Like, we socialize, but it's all about the game itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarZero View Post
    I like the "hobo" in there.
    "Hey, you just got 10000gp! You going to buy a fully staffed mansion or something?"
    "Nah, I'll upgrade my +2 sword to a +3 sword and sleep in my cloak."

    Non est salvatori salvator, neque defensori dominus, nec pater nec mater, nihil supernum.

    Torumekian knight Avatar by Licoot.

    Note to self: Never get involved in an ethics thread again...Especially if I'm defending the empire.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Except it's neither. You're describing not knowing the game as a barrier to social interaction. And maybe to a degree it is. But you then follow it up by saying that once you're knowledgeable about the game you can think and talk about anything but.

    That doesn't sound like the game is something you enjoy. That sounds like the socialization is something you enjoy, and the game is your excuse to get together.

    I enjoy the game. When playing, we generally talk about the game. About the lore of the setting, making up funny stories about events as they happen. Giving names to models who pull off feats of glory against great odds.

    Like, we socialize, but it's all about the game itself.
    Can't speak for Cheese, but in my case the game is something I enjoyed. Back during list creation and reading the codex and looking up other codices online. Its like the prep-work before cooking: chop this, dice that, simmer it, unfreeze those, arrange them neatly in the order they'll get used.

    The moment of, you can tune in to a podcast or sing or converse with your spouse about whats on TV. Because all you have to do is add stuff, stir and mind the fire. How much of what, how little or large, etc. has all been taken care of already. Doesn't mean you dont enjoy cooking, just that 'cooking' is a lot more than throwing stuff on a pot or racing against the fire while you frantically peel and chop stuff. Its looking up recipes online, is trial and error until you can pinch the right amount of salt with your eyes closed, its asking elderly grandmas for spice advice, its training your nose to smell when stuff is at the right point. None of that happens at the time of cooking, but is no less part of cooking in my mind.

    The same applies to tabletop gaming. Enjoy building, painting, making up a story, but also pre-measuring threat ranges, charge vectors, interactions, what-ifs, redudancy, contingency scenarios, optimal stratagem use, etc. All of that is 'the game' to me and very much enjoyable. So at the time of the game, once all of that is done, your mind can wander and take in the nuances of your oponent's playstyle, or get to know him as a person, or enjoy chats with random passerbys. Because moving unit A to counter scenario 3 is the same as pouring a pre-peeled pre-cut bowl of mushrooms into a soup pot: all the decision and care has been done long ago, now just do the thing and keep moving with the flow.
    Last edited by LansXero; 2021-04-13 at 10:46 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    You don't need to waste time trying to figure out what your Lascannons are going to shoot at. Because you already decided during list creation that your Lascannons were going to shoot Vehicles (and Heavy Infantry). So what's taking you so long? Just shoot the target you already decided four days ago, that they were going to shoot.
    I disagree, the chaos of the game usually means my planned role for a lot of units goes up in smoke by turn 2. My opponent ignored my distraction carnifex, focused on killing my objective cappers, for some reason has a weird grudge against my warlord and is hell bent in killing him etc etc. A lot of the time I find myself with a decision like; well those lascannons were meant to kill vehicles and his dreadnaught is right there, but on the other hand I could "waste" them on killing those basic marines and thus stop him from scoring that objective. Deciding which is more important, which can maybe be covered by another unit etc can take up some time. Of course you're right in saying a lot of this can be done in my opponents turn, but then I still need to see how my dice shake out, as a lot of my attack decisions may hinge on that. Also I'm just not the best player :p

    For the socialising stuff - I have friends with whom I can shoot the breeze without 40k being invovled. But I also have people with whom I enjoying playing 40k with, but without 40k we probably won't be friends. Nothing against them, we just wouldn't have enough in common otherwise. For some people, 40k acts as a structure to the socialising, supporting it and holding it up. Because without this structure relationships take energy and effort, and I have a finite amount of that.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Fergie0044 View Post
    I disagree, the chaos of the game usually means my planned role for a lot of units goes up in smoke by turn 2. (..) I'm just not the best player :p
    Yup, both of those are correlated. One because deploying is also part of the game and thus out-ranging / out-LoSing key threats and knowing in which order to deploy yours to bait out the other guy's is very important, but also because you should already have an answer on the back of your mind for "what happens if X blows up turn 1", even if that answer is conceding.

    My opponent ignored my distraction carnifex, focused on killing my objective cappers, for some reason has a weird grudge against my warlord and is hell bent in killing him etc etc.
    A plan that hinges on the opponent being a potato is not a good plan.

    A lot of the time I find myself with a decision like; well those lascannons were meant to kill vehicles and his dreadnaught is right there, but on the other hand I could "waste" them on killing those basic marines and thus stop him from scoring that objective. Deciding which is more important, which can maybe be covered by another unit etc can take up some time.
    Odd, out of the blue scenarios? sure. Something that happens 'a lot of the time' should already have an answer, based on decisions taken during those lots of times and their results.

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Yup, both of those are correlated. One because deploying is also part of the game and thus out-ranging / out-LoSing key threats and knowing in which order to deploy yours to bait out the other guy's is very important, but also because you should already have an answer on the back of your mind for "what happens if X blows up turn 1", even if that answer is conceding.



    A plan that hinges on the opponent being a potato is not a good plan.



    Odd, out of the blue scenarios? sure. Something that happens 'a lot of the time' should already have an answer, based on decisions taken during those lots of times and their results.
    I put it more to your opponent playing suboptimally can actually throw you off a fair bit. Suddenly what should be dead in your army is alive, the threats you need to deal with are in a weird spot and in all honestly you should be able to wrap the game up easily, assuming the dice stay average. Or you can hit a patch of bad luck and suddenly have to adjust further, swinging the weird game completely out of whack and next thing you know your Rangers are dueling Bikers on an objective and somehow refusing to die.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Does anyone know a good site to get RE magnets? I want to set up some removable hanging pipes in my zone mortalis board, but my store doesn't carry the 6mm and 15mm magnets compatible with the fittings on the ZM kits and the Promethium pipes. I've tried google, but magnet product reviews are hard to come by.
    Last edited by Squark; 2021-04-13 at 02:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Does anyone know a good site to get RE magnets? I want to set up some removable hanging pipes in my zone mortalis board, but my store doesn't carry the 6mm and 15mm magnets compatible with the fittings on the ZM kits and the Promethium pipes. I've tried google, but magnet product reviews are hard to come by.
    Where are you ordering from? In the UK, I get mine from Element Games, but don’t know if there might be stores more conveniently placed to ship to you.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    Where are you ordering from? In the UK, I get mine from Element Games, but don’t know if there might be stores more conveniently placed to ship to you.
    Midwest U.S. Part of my struggle is a lot of the companies I've heard about seem to be UK based, and I'd rwther avoid international shipping.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I put it more to your opponent playing suboptimally can actually throw you off a fair bit.
    IF you are a casual player, sure. But as you get better you realize you dont play around your opponent, you play in spite of him. The objectives of the game are what they are and you only need to interact with your rival insofar as doing so advances or facilitates you achieving whatever win condition is there. Which is a weird mindset for casual players but think about it and you'll realize its perfectly logical.

    Weird list building choices will of course throw you for a loop if you are tailoring for a different set of challenges. But then, realizing 'I cant deal with X or Y' is also part of the process; you bank on your elite killing low ROF high DMG build; when the other guy plops down a sheet of orks or termagants, its not "oh my, what to do!!", but rather just the realization that you're unequipped to deal with it and either concede on the spot or go to whatever plan B you have for this ocurrence. Said Plan B can even just be the casualplayer's old reliable "durdle for a couple of hours while praying to the dice gods and banking on my oponent being a potato", which I personally dislike, but is still a plan of sorts.

    Suddenly what should be dead in your army is alive, the threats you need to deal with are in a weird spot and in all honestly you should be able to wrap the game up easily, assuming the dice stay average. Or you can hit a patch of bad luck and suddenly have to adjust further, swinging the weird game completely out of whack and next thing you know your Rangers are dueling Bikers on an objective and somehow refusing to die.
    I wonder how much of my perception is messed up due to having a competitive RTS and TCG background. You should have a cascading set of "If x then y; if not x then z" prompts on the back of your mind to pull from in the case of outlier results or unlikely trends. Using MTG as an example: You're banking on removing a beater to not die next turn then hit with a lifelink guy to stabilize, since your rival only has one card on hand. Bam, red counter (only works when targetting a permanent, its overcosted so who plays around counterspells vs red?) screws you over. So, whats your plan B? Did you tap out? Can you trade on the block? what else can you draw into? IF you think about this at the moment under the shock and surprise you'll screw up, likely tilt and spiral into a loss. But if its one of many scenarios you ran in your head (likely not against red, but similar enough) you either accept you've been outplayed and sideboard accordingly next game, or move to that plan. No room to guess and doubt. Clock is ticking, so it'd only hurt you if you did.
    Last edited by LansXero; 2021-04-13 at 03:06 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Does anyone know a good site to get RE magnets? I want to set up some removable hanging pipes in my zone mortalis board, but my store doesn't carry the 6mm and 15mm magnets compatible with the fittings on the ZM kits and the Promethium pipes. I've tried google, but magnet product reviews are hard to come by.
    https://www.kjmagnetics.com/
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    I had looked at these guys, and I think I figured out how to navigate their site, but that does leave me with one question; What grade of magnet is sufficient?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    IF you are a casual player, sure. But as you get better you realize you dont play around your opponent, you play in spite of him. The objectives of the game are what they are and you only need to interact with your rival insofar as doing so advances or facilitates you achieving whatever win condition is there. Which is a weird mindset for casual players but think about it and you'll realize its perfectly logical.

    Weird list building choices will of course throw you for a loop if you are tailoring for a different set of challenges. But then, realizing 'I cant deal with X or Y' is also part of the process; you bank on your elite killing low ROF high DMG build; when the other guy plops down a sheet of orks or termagants, its not "oh my, what to do!!", but rather just the realization that you're unequipped to deal with it and either concede on the spot or go to whatever plan B you have for this ocurrence. Said Plan B can even just be the casualplayer's old reliable "durdle for a couple of hours while praying to the dice gods and banking on my oponent being a potato", which I personally dislike, but is still a plan of sorts.



    I wonder how much of my perception is messed up due to having a competitive RTS and TCG background. You should have a cascading set of "If x then y; if not x then z" prompts on the back of your mind to pull from in the case of outlier results or unlikely trends. Using MTG as an example: You're banking on removing a beater to not die next turn then hit with a lifelink guy to stabilize, since your rival only has one card on hand. Bam, red counter (only works when targetting a permanent, its overcosted so who plays around counterspells vs red?) screws you over. So, whats your plan B? Did you tap out? Can you trade on the block? what else can you draw into? IF you think about this at the moment under the shock and surprise you'll screw up, likely tilt and spiral into a loss. But if its one of many scenarios you ran in your head (likely not against red, but similar enough) you either accept you've been outplayed and sideboard accordingly next game, or move to that plan. No room to guess and doubt. Clock is ticking, so it'd only hurt you if you did.
    On the contrary, in that scenario I should end up basically tabling my opponent turn 2, unless the dice completely mess me up and now the opponent's really dumb and high risk strategy actually ended up working.

    Most of the time? Yes, the opponent gets nearly tabled and you chalk up an easy win. But you remember the times when it doesn't.

    Basically it is still a dice game, and while I find optimal play is all about playing the statistics in what will get you the most points on average, suboptimal play doesn't do that, but sometimes ends up working just because the dice fell in their favor.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    I had looked at these guys, and I think I figured out how to navigate their site, but that does leave me with one question; What grade of magnet is sufficient?
    Unless what you're hanging is SUPER heavy, 6mm should be plenty. I used 2mm to magnetize my Bullgryns and think I maybe should have gone for 3mm to get a firmer hold, but they work. My Russ Demolisher turrets are magnetized with 1/4" magnets (slightly larger than 6mm) simply because that's the bore of a Demolisher cannon and they also fit inside the Executioner cannon, but they're much stronger than the purpose really needs.
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2021-04-13 at 04:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    I'm using 3/8" to hold on my Heldrake's wings, and those are plenty strong. What are you making your pipes out of? Unless it's lead, you shouldn't have any problems even with smaller magnets.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Re: what do you do on your opponent’s turn, I think it’s also useful to remember that some armies have more reactive defenses than others. Harlequins, for instance, have to decide when lightning fast should be used, whether Foes of the mind should be used, when twilit Encore should be used to keep a combat going, when it’s valuable to use Isha’s weeping to keep a squad’s losses low or The Curtain Falls, all potentially on the opponent’s turn.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    I enjoy the game. When playing, we generally talk about the game. About the lore of the setting, making up funny stories about events as they happen. Giving names to models who pull off feats of glory against great odds.
    [...]
    Like, we socialize, but it's all about the game itself.
    Oh I forgot. This is the internet where everything is absolute, and because I didn't say that I explicitly did those things, I must not do them. Even though I have mountains of battle reports where my Librarian is still named Goku Ultionis. I can confirm at least two instances of my posting literal fanwank fanfic to the board. And I remember soft-pitching my storyline for the Rhana Danda to the board...Because I was reading something about Eldar, and Queen's Princes of the Universe was on the radio.

    But here's a question, and I ask it genuinely:

    "Competitive players don't play for fun." - a Casual, probably.

    Okay. If competitive players aren't enjoying themselves, why would they play? That makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fergie0044 View Post
    I disagree, the chaos of the game usually means my planned role for a lot of units goes up in smoke by turn 2.
    I assume that that's happened at least once. So now you know what to do when that happens, yes?

    My opponent ignored my distraction carnifex
    That's a dead term. That term - and playstyle - died towards the end of 5th Ed., when the internet became mainstream and information was freely shared.
    Both players should have 'open army lists', that is, your opponent can ask to see your army list at any time. Hiding your army list from your opponent died way back in 4th Ed...Or maybe at the beginning of 5th Ed.

    If your opponent asks you a question about your unit, you should answer them truthfully - and answering them untruthfully, is cheating. Again, you can't 'hide' things from your opponent anymore. Even if you could, Sportsmanship is a real thing that exists.

    'Distraction Carnifexes' relies on your opponent not knowing what your unit actually does. Which just shouldn't be a thing. Your opponent isn't a straw potato.

    for some reason has a weird grudge against my warlord and is hell bent in killing him etc etc.
    ...What? Your opponent should be targeting your Warlord, where they can. In what world, wont they?

    Of course you're right in saying a lot of this can be done in my opponents turn [...] Also I'm just not the best player :p
    That's my point. The fact that you have trouble making decisions in your opponent's turn, is one of the reasons you're not a best player.

    Remember, making decisions in your opponent's turn, isn't necessarily about skill (although it absolutely is). The main reason to do it, is if you're under a time constraint. If you're not under a time constraint, you have no need to make timely decisions because you can take as long as you want. But also you should be making timely decisions because slow-players are agony.

    inb4; "You can't slow-play in a casual game." ...Yes you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    IF you are a casual player, sure. But as you get better you realize you dont play around your opponent, you play in spite of him.
    I hope people remember the above sentence the next time people try to put you and I in the same box.

    The objectives of the game are what they are and you only need to interact with your rival insofar as doing so advances or facilitates you achieving whatever win condition is there. Which is a weird mindset for casual players but think about it and you'll realize its perfectly logical.
    I agree. The Objectives are pre-determined. You already know what you need to achieve before the game starts. As I mentioned earlier, Maelstrom is dead (for now). The game just isn't that hard to play:
    1. Score Objectives.
    2. Prevent your opponent from scoring Objectives...But also sometimes you can't even do that, so go back to 1.

    Said Plan B can even just be the casualplayer's old reliable "durdle for a couple of hours while praying to the dice gods and banking on my oponent being a potato", which I personally dislike, but is still a plan of sorts.
    "I lost the game on Turn 1, but I'm going to play it out for 5 turns and be miserable the entire time. This game sucks, can't believe I wasted 2-3 hours for this."

    Learn to concede-and-reset. You'll have more fun.

    Your opponent alpha struck the **** out of your 'best unit', their dice rolled fire and yours rolled cold as ice. Your Pysker cast two Powers that turn and Perils'd both times.
    GG. Play again? We've only lost 20 minutes, but as casuals we have all the time in the world so let's just reset?

    I wonder how much of my perception is messed up due to having a competitive RTS and TCG background. You should have a cascading set of "If x then y; if not x then z" prompts on the back of your mind to pull from in the case of outlier results or unlikely trends.
    But that's what any competitive player does, in any situation, in any game; Okay boys, the other team is using this play, and passing the ball to that player. Here's how we counter. Player, you're benched for the next ten minutes, whilst we put in Other Player.

    If X, Counterplay.
    If Y doesn't work, Contingency.*

    *This is why high-level lists often use spam as a tactic. If the first unit doesn't work, use the other unit that's exactly the same.

    No room to guess and doubt. Clock is ticking, so it'd only hurt you if you did.
    If short, if you have trouble playing under time; Get good.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I hope people remember the above sentence the next time people try to put you and I in the same box.
    But is it not true though? :v.

    But that's what any competitive player does, in any situation, in any game; Okay boys, the other team is using this play, and passing the ball to that player. Here's how we counter. Player, you're benched for the next ten minutes, whilst we put in Other Player.

    If X, Counterplay.
    If Y doesn't work, Contingency.*
    And yet the concept seems to be meeting resistance; I will concede that selecting the proper pre-rehearsed answer does take player agency and skill, but you get used to it with practice as anything else. Some factions have bigger toolboxes to use / to answer so I might oversold how 'simple' it is, but after a while you start noticing trends and can shortcut a lot of mental work.

    If short, if you have trouble playing under time; Get good.
    Which isnt as unpleasant as people make it seem. I find faster paced games to be more enjoyable overall, both to me and my opponent since we can sometimes get right into another match or relax and unwind for a bit.

    Anecdote time: Back during our last doubles tournament, my partner and I knew each other's list so well I left during game 1 round 1 to go get us cold drinks (it was summer here) and let him just decide whatever he needed to. I arrived at the end of the opponent's turn and after a brief glance at the board, we knew what we would do. A friend from a nearby table ordered us food, which my partner went to pick up while I blasted the other team, and we sat to eat while they finished their turn. We ended up winning that match, even though we were both absentminded through it all, in spite of being a tournament; the enemy team was Necrons / Sisters, and had very little variance as far as game plans go: Bubble under St. Celestine and shoot from there, Destroyers to try and frag heavier stuff. We ignored the destroyers and slow necrons most of the game since our Eldar combo could run circles around them, and since the sisters were castling it provided an easy target to blow up with everything we had, leaving the necrons for later turns of mopping up. We realized this reading their list, so we could enjoy a nice, relaxed match eating chicken and joking with the teams near us.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    gotta agree with cheesegear.

    There's joy in serious competition.
    It's a itch that feels so good to scratch (if you have it. )

    When I play to win, I want to win in the game, to outplay my opponent is a better joy than "my list is more expensive or just have more raw power due to unbalance than my opponents"
    that's a good feeling. Also, it's so good when there's a good diversity of the metagame, to be refreshing to play agains different kind of lists. But I know myselft, I know if to play with less skilled opponents, I can make pesonal objectives so I won't stomp them (like in a casual euro boardgame night, for example)

    And I get the frustration to try it in 40k, Or any game that you play long enough and see it's downfall (too many here to count)
    and it's okay.

    i lurk in this foruns since the end of 5th.
    It's always a cycle.
    New edition, new stuff, too much stuff broken, people get heartbroken, try to make a fandex or fan rules, new edition, new stuff, too much broken stuff, people get mad, try to make house rules, this time for real, new edition, and so on.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I hope people remember the above sentence the next time people try to put you and I in the same box.
    Don't worry, it's a big box with plenty of room for you both. And the label on the top says "people who take 40k more seriously than me and therefore must all be the same".

    As for the rest of this conversation, I now find myself out of my depth. I can only hope to be able to play 40k again in the near future where I can try your advice out.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    I get the idea behind conceding early to avoid a drawn-out loss, but the idea of conceding during deployment just baffles me. Like, you're not even going to try? And what's stopping them from deploying the same exact model you can't deal with in the next game?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by AdmiralCheez View Post
    And what's stopping them from deploying the same exact model you can't deal with in the next game?
    Social contract, mostly. Assuming the other person isn't a jerk: "Hey friend, I'd really prefer not to play against Model X, it really ruins my fun because the army I have can't beat it. Do you think you could swap it for something else and we play that way?"

    If they can make the change, great, have a good game. If they cannot, perhaps they can make a suggestion for how to fight it. If neither of these, maybe they know what unit you don't currently have would help, and you could try proxying some models to take it for a spin while you build up the currency.

    And if they absolutely won't change, and you aren't interested in playing uphill and possibly getting crushed by a self-fulfilling prophecy, then don't play with them. There might be other people to play with, or other games. Or, worst case, today just isn't a gaming day anymore. There are other things that can be done, even if they aren't what you wanted to do. Next time should be better.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    I took a look at the new Drukhari codex; what stood out the most were Incubi (and Drazhar makes them even better). I'm wondering if a mixed Craftworlds/Drukhari list might be viable, using cheap Kabalite Warriors to hold objectives, Incubi in Raiders/Venoms to charge the opponent, then picking up the strong Fast Attack/Heavy Support options from Craftworlds (I'm particularly thinking of Shining Spears, Dark Reapers, and Fire Prisms). What do you folks think, might this be worth the CP cost of having two detachments, or would it be better just to stick with one codex?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by IthilanorStPete View Post
    I took a look at the new Drukhari codex; what stood out the most were Incubi (and Drazhar makes them even better). I'm wondering if a mixed Craftworlds/Drukhari list might be viable, using cheap Kabalite Warriors to hold objectives, Incubi in Raiders/Venoms to charge the opponent, then picking up the strong Fast Attack/Heavy Support options from Craftworlds (I'm particularly thinking of Shining Spears, Dark Reapers, and Fire Prisms). What do you folks think, might this be worth the CP cost of having two detachments, or would it be better just to stick with one codex?
    I've been wondering the same thing, because I do love that fire prism model and would like an excuse to use one without building a whole craftworlds army. I don't know enough to say if it's a good mix or worth having multiple detachments though.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    To make the discussion more concrete, here's a 2000 pt list I threw together:

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    ++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [51 PL, 12CP, 925pts] ++

    + Configuration [12CP] +

    Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]

    Detachment Command Cost

    Obsession: Kabal of the Poisoned Tongue: The Serpent's Kiss

    + HQ [7 PL, 135pts] +

    Drazhar [7 PL, 135pts]: Hatred Eternal, The Executioner's Demiklaives, Warlord

    + Troops [18 PL, 300pts] +

    Kabalite Warriors [6 PL, 100pts]
    . 6x Kabalite Warrior [48pts]: 6x Splinter Rifle
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon [18pts]: Splinter Cannon [10pts]
    . Sybarite [8pts]: Splinter Rifle

    Kabalite Warriors [6 PL, 100pts]
    . 6x Kabalite Warrior [48pts]: 6x Splinter Rifle
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon [18pts]: Splinter Cannon [10pts]
    . Sybarite [8pts]: Splinter Rifle

    Kabalite Warriors [6 PL, 100pts]
    . 6x Kabalite Warrior [48pts]: 6x Splinter Rifle
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon [18pts]: Splinter Cannon [10pts]
    . Sybarite [8pts]: Splinter Rifle

    + Elites [16 PL, 320pts] +

    Incubi [8 PL, 160pts]
    . 9x Incubi [144pts]: 9x Klaive
    . Klaivex [16pts]: Klaive

    Incubi [8 PL, 160pts]
    . 9x Incubi [144pts]: 9x Klaive
    . Klaivex [16pts]: Klaive

    + Dedicated Transport [10 PL, 170pts] +

    Raider [5 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Dark Lance, Kabal

    Raider [5 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Dark Lance, Kabal

    ++ Spearhead Detachment -3CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [55 PL, -3CP, 1,070pts] ++

    + Configuration [-3CP] +

    Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

    Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

    + HQ [13 PL, 250pts] +

    Autarch Skyrunner [6 PL, 110pts]: Laser Lance [5pts], Peerless Agility, Ride the Wind, The Path of Command, Twin Shuriken Catapult

    Farseer Skyrunner [7 PL, 140pts]: 0. Smite, 2. Doom, 3. Fortune, Ghosthelm, Psyker (Farseer), Ride the Wind, Rune Armour, Runes of the Farseer, Shuriken Pistol, Singing Spear [5pts], Twin Shuriken Catapult

    + Fast Attack [15 PL, 280pts] +

    Shining Spears [15 PL, 280pts]: Aerobatic Grace, Ride the Wind
    . 7x Shining Spear [245pts]: 7x Laser Lance, 7x Twin Shuriken Catapult
    . Shining Spear Exarch [35pts]: Laser Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult
    . . Exarch Power: Heartstrike

    + Heavy Support [27 PL, 540pts] +

    Fire Prism [9 PL, 180pts]: Explodes (Hover Tank), Hover Tank, Prism Cannon, Pulsed Laser Discharge, Spirit Stones [10pts], Twin Shuriken Catapult

    Fire Prism [9 PL, 180pts]: Explodes (Hover Tank), Hover Tank, Prism Cannon, Pulsed Laser Discharge, Spirit Stones [10pts], Twin Shuriken Catapult

    Fire Prism [9 PL, 180pts]: Explodes (Hover Tank), Hover Tank, Prism Cannon, Pulsed Laser Discharge, Spirit Stones [10pts], Twin Shuriken Catapult

    ++ Total: [106 PL, 9CP, 1,995pts] ++
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by IthilanorStPete View Post
    To make the discussion more concrete, here's a 2000 pt list I threw together:

    Spoiler
    Show

    ++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [51 PL, 12CP, 925pts] ++

    + Configuration [12CP] +

    Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]

    Detachment Command Cost

    Obsession: Kabal of the Poisoned Tongue: The Serpent's Kiss

    + HQ [7 PL, 135pts] +

    Drazhar [7 PL, 135pts]: Hatred Eternal, The Executioner's Demiklaives, Warlord

    + Troops [18 PL, 300pts] +

    Kabalite Warriors [6 PL, 100pts]
    . 6x Kabalite Warrior [48pts]: 6x Splinter Rifle
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon [18pts]: Splinter Cannon [10pts]
    . Sybarite [8pts]: Splinter Rifle

    Kabalite Warriors [6 PL, 100pts]
    . 6x Kabalite Warrior [48pts]: 6x Splinter Rifle
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon [18pts]: Splinter Cannon [10pts]
    . Sybarite [8pts]: Splinter Rifle

    Kabalite Warriors [6 PL, 100pts]
    . 6x Kabalite Warrior [48pts]: 6x Splinter Rifle
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon [18pts]: Splinter Cannon [10pts]
    . Sybarite [8pts]: Splinter Rifle

    + Elites [16 PL, 320pts] +

    Incubi [8 PL, 160pts]
    . 9x Incubi [144pts]: 9x Klaive
    . Klaivex [16pts]: Klaive

    Incubi [8 PL, 160pts]
    . 9x Incubi [144pts]: 9x Klaive
    . Klaivex [16pts]: Klaive

    + Dedicated Transport [10 PL, 170pts] +

    Raider [5 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Dark Lance, Kabal

    Raider [5 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Dark Lance, Kabal

    ++ Spearhead Detachment -3CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [55 PL, -3CP, 1,070pts] ++

    + Configuration [-3CP] +

    Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

    Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

    + HQ [13 PL, 250pts] +

    Autarch Skyrunner [6 PL, 110pts]: Laser Lance [5pts], Peerless Agility, Ride the Wind, The Path of Command, Twin Shuriken Catapult

    Farseer Skyrunner [7 PL, 140pts]: 0. Smite, 2. Doom, 3. Fortune, Ghosthelm, Psyker (Farseer), Ride the Wind, Rune Armour, Runes of the Farseer, Shuriken Pistol, Singing Spear [5pts], Twin Shuriken Catapult

    + Fast Attack [15 PL, 280pts] +

    Shining Spears [15 PL, 280pts]: Aerobatic Grace, Ride the Wind
    . 7x Shining Spear [245pts]: 7x Laser Lance, 7x Twin Shuriken Catapult
    . Shining Spear Exarch [35pts]: Laser Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult
    . . Exarch Power: Heartstrike

    + Heavy Support [27 PL, 540pts] +

    Fire Prism [9 PL, 180pts]: Explodes (Hover Tank), Hover Tank, Prism Cannon, Pulsed Laser Discharge, Spirit Stones [10pts], Twin Shuriken Catapult

    Fire Prism [9 PL, 180pts]: Explodes (Hover Tank), Hover Tank, Prism Cannon, Pulsed Laser Discharge, Spirit Stones [10pts], Twin Shuriken Catapult

    Fire Prism [9 PL, 180pts]: Explodes (Hover Tank), Hover Tank, Prism Cannon, Pulsed Laser Discharge, Spirit Stones [10pts], Twin Shuriken Catapult

    ++ Total: [106 PL, 9CP, 1,995pts] ++
    Dark Reapers > Prisms imho. Also I'd toss the Autarch in favor of a source of Jinx.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Dark Reapers > Prisms imho. Also I'd toss the Autarch in favor of a source of Jinx.
    The main reason I went with Prisms was to have more vehicles, so the Raiders won't necessarily attract all the anti-vehicle fire immediately. Is that a good idea?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Depends.

    Prisms aren't particularly durable and their ROF isnt super high for their cost, but they do pack a punch. However, with the strat you can poke one prism out and keep the others outside of LoS, so using them to cover for Raiders is suboptimal at best. IF your oponent is worried about the content of your raiders / realizes they are a mobility crutch for your kabalites, they'll priorize them regardless.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

    Quote Originally Posted by IthilanorStPete View Post
    I took a look at the new Drukhari codex; what stood out the most were Incubi (and Drazhar makes them even better). I'm wondering if a mixed Craftworlds/Drukhari list might be viable, using cheap Kabalite Warriors to hold objectives, Incubi in Raiders/Venoms to charge the opponent, then picking up the strong Fast Attack/Heavy Support options from Craftworlds (I'm particularly thinking of Shining Spears, Dark Reapers, and Fire Prisms). What do you folks think, might this be worth the CP cost of having two detachments, or would it be better just to stick with one codex?
    Quote Originally Posted by IthilanorStPete View Post
    To make the discussion more concrete, here's a 2000 pt list I threw together:

    Spoiler
    Show

    ++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [51 PL, 12CP, 925pts] ++

    + Configuration [12CP] +

    Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]

    Detachment Command Cost

    Obsession: Kabal of the Poisoned Tongue: The Serpent's Kiss

    + HQ [7 PL, 135pts] +

    Drazhar [7 PL, 135pts]: Hatred Eternal, The Executioner's Demiklaives, Warlord

    + Troops [18 PL, 300pts] +

    Kabalite Warriors [6 PL, 100pts]
    . 6x Kabalite Warrior [48pts]: 6x Splinter Rifle
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon [18pts]: Splinter Cannon [10pts]
    . Sybarite [8pts]: Splinter Rifle

    Kabalite Warriors [6 PL, 100pts]
    . 6x Kabalite Warrior [48pts]: 6x Splinter Rifle
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon [18pts]: Splinter Cannon [10pts]
    . Sybarite [8pts]: Splinter Rifle

    Kabalite Warriors [6 PL, 100pts]
    . 6x Kabalite Warrior [48pts]: 6x Splinter Rifle
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite Warrior w/ Special Weapon [13pts]: Shredder [5pts]
    . Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon [18pts]: Splinter Cannon [10pts]
    . Sybarite [8pts]: Splinter Rifle

    + Elites [16 PL, 320pts] +

    Incubi [8 PL, 160pts]
    . 9x Incubi [144pts]: 9x Klaive
    . Klaivex [16pts]: Klaive

    Incubi [8 PL, 160pts]
    . 9x Incubi [144pts]: 9x Klaive
    . Klaivex [16pts]: Klaive

    + Dedicated Transport [10 PL, 170pts] +

    Raider [5 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Dark Lance, Kabal

    Raider [5 PL, 85pts]: Bladevanes, Dark Lance, Kabal

    ++ Spearhead Detachment -3CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [55 PL, -3CP, 1,070pts] ++

    + Configuration [-3CP] +

    Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

    Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

    + HQ [13 PL, 250pts] +

    Autarch Skyrunner [6 PL, 110pts]: Laser Lance [5pts], Peerless Agility, Ride the Wind, The Path of Command, Twin Shuriken Catapult

    Farseer Skyrunner [7 PL, 140pts]: 0. Smite, 2. Doom, 3. Fortune, Ghosthelm, Psyker (Farseer), Ride the Wind, Rune Armour, Runes of the Farseer, Shuriken Pistol, Singing Spear [5pts], Twin Shuriken Catapult

    + Fast Attack [15 PL, 280pts] +

    Shining Spears [15 PL, 280pts]: Aerobatic Grace, Ride the Wind
    . 7x Shining Spear [245pts]: 7x Laser Lance, 7x Twin Shuriken Catapult
    . Shining Spear Exarch [35pts]: Laser Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult
    . . Exarch Power: Heartstrike

    + Heavy Support [27 PL, 540pts] +

    Fire Prism [9 PL, 180pts]: Explodes (Hover Tank), Hover Tank, Prism Cannon, Pulsed Laser Discharge, Spirit Stones [10pts], Twin Shuriken Catapult

    Fire Prism [9 PL, 180pts]: Explodes (Hover Tank), Hover Tank, Prism Cannon, Pulsed Laser Discharge, Spirit Stones [10pts], Twin Shuriken Catapult

    Fire Prism [9 PL, 180pts]: Explodes (Hover Tank), Hover Tank, Prism Cannon, Pulsed Laser Discharge, Spirit Stones [10pts], Twin Shuriken Catapult

    ++ Total: [106 PL, 9CP, 1,995pts] ++
    Wait are those Warriors on foot? If you are just using them to hold objectives, drop the special weapons and run them in groups of 5. Outside of a Raider they'll melt, so don't invest more points into them than you have to.

    I'll second dropping the Autarch. The Fire Prisms get full rerolls from their Stratagem, so the only unit who can use it is the Shining Spears, and quite frankly, Jinx/Protect is more powerful and useful. Or even Quicken to get the Shining Spears in turn 1. Also Heartstrike is a horrible Exarch power. Skilled Rider, Withdraw, or Expert Hunter are all better.
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