A level 6 Infinite Concentration spells combo? ( Bottled Respite + Glyph of Warding )

[Ogun]

Why are you lot so focused on the caster being in the glyph's space? So long as the "the surface or object is [not] moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell" -- as in from where the thing was when you inscribed it, you're good.

10 feet from where YOU were when you cast it, isnt same as 10 feet from where IT was when you cast it.

[Rukelnikov]

This cannot be stated enough. I usually read these kind of threads to keep "up to date" with whatever kind of sillyness players might look up when they google "best warlock" or whatever, and this is a perfect example of something you just say "no" to.

The Warlock is not the "problem" here, the exploit can be replicated by many classes, the "problem" is Glyph of Warding

[NorthernPhoenix]

The Warlock is not the "problem" here, the exploit can be replicated by many classes, the "problem" is Glyph of Warding

That was just an example of how someone who isn't always on these forums would find something like this and bring it to a table. Personally, i think if anyone is trying to leverage any kind of exploit against their DM in an adversarial manner, the problem extends beyond the game. Any DM (especially new ones), should feel comfortable saying "no" to something like this, and if they don't, then the books haven't made the fact that they should clear enough.

[HPisBS]

10 feet from where YOU were when you cast it, isnt same as 10 feet from where IT was when you cast it.

From where you cast it, as in its point of origin.

If Delayed Blast Fireball said "Each creature within 20 ft of where you cast the spell takes 12d6 fire damage," would that refer to your location, or the spell's location? Clearly the latter.

... Personally, i think if anyone is trying to leverage any kind of exploit against their DM in an adversarial manner, the problem extends beyond the game. Any DM (especially new ones), should feel comfortable saying "no" to something like this....

What's "adversarial" about it? If players want to "break" some central part of the fictional world somehow, like destroying the Mage Judicars for having the audacity to take umbrage with their murder-hobo-y ways, then sure, I guess. Otherwise, layering some spells like this is just playing smart. (And it isn't exactly a new thing, either. Wasn't stacking buff spells pretty standard in previous editions?)

If you want your players to use the tactic sparingly or judiciously, then you can just make diamonds harder to come by; once they've bought a whole bunch, the supply could be all used up for a while, thus preventing them from pulling the hoard out every time something significant comes up.

Remember this is a game where PCs can just straight up conjure a whole Fortress for themselves. Do that 52 weeks in a row and it even becomes permanent. It's one of the only games where you're basically meant to amass that kind of wealth / power. If this is what your players want to spend their in-game wealth on, then let them have their version of the power fantasy. (It'd probably be cheaper to hire some mercenary mages to follow them around casting Haste, etc, anyway -- assuming the PCs could keep them alive.)

[Ogun]

From where you cast it, as in its point of origin.

If Delayed Blast Fireball said "Each creature within 20 ft of where you cast the spell takes 12d6 fire damage," would that refer to your location, or the spell's location? Clearly the latter.

For better or worse, that isn't how delayed blast fire ball is worded.
Look, I agreed that RAI is as you say, but the RAW is ambiguous at best.
Since this is a rules lawyer-ing exercise, the impulse is to avoid any rules ambiguity that might be used to dispute the validity of the exploit.
Thus we cast from inside the extradimensional space, to avoid the ambiguity.

FWIW, I like the idea of a small caster taking cover in a bag of holding .
Adding some powerups is a nice bonus.
I think the creation bard ability to eliminate the material component cost is the thing that makes this too damn good.

[HPisBS]

...
I think the creation bard ability to eliminate the material component cost is the thing that makes this too damn good.

Agreed. It takes it from a relatively insignificant cost (for mid-level PCs) to a nonexistent cost. Since it's such a low-level ability, I'd add a clause about not being able to use it to create consumable spell components.

[follacchioso]

I did something like this with a high level Wizard character with access to Wish. Apart from covering the lair with traps, she had a few "preparation rooms" full of enhancing glyphs, activated on a password, ranging from the fly/haste everyday combo, to healing for the emergency situations.

One thing to take into account is that this strategy is very expensive, until you get access to Wish. At that point, it is overpowered, so the DM house ruled a limit of active glyphs per character. Even with Wish, this is something that takes time to set up, as you can only cast it once per day. It's good for the special occasions, but you can't use it for every combat.

The Creation Bard combo is nice, but the problem I see is that bards do not have many suitable spells in their list, and they are also limited by the number of spell known.
A quick look at the Bard spell list gives me Cure Wounds, Enhance Ability, Intellect Fortress, NonDetection, Tongues, Freedom of Movement, Invisibility / Greater Invisibility, and True Seeing; these are all great spells, but there is no Fly, Haste, Outiluke Resilient Sphere are not there. You can get them through Magical Secrets, but that is a very steep cost. So you are building your whole character on the assumption that you will be able to power up for the very important fights, including your choice of subclass, but in reality you won't have many buffs to prepare, and you will also have fewer offensive spells known because your selection is tied to the glyph.


Note also that many cool spells such as Globe of Invulnerability, the Investitures etc. are not valid spells because they don't target a create.

[HPisBS]

Note also that many cool spells such as Globe of Invulnerability, the Investitures etc. are not valid spells because they don't target a create.

Sure they are. "Self" = "targets a single creature." The one creature it targets is just always the caster's own self. (Or in this case, the creature that triggered the glyph's own self.)

[quindraco]

If my work has borne any fruit at all, the Genie Warlock's Bottled Respite should be well known by now as one of the most broken 1st level, or frankly any level feature around considering all you can do with it, yet I somehow missed ( And seemingly eso did everyone else ) what could be one of the most broken uses to ever grace DND 5E.

And I am approaching this cautiously, since there's a bit of ambiguity and I understand something like this will be under intense examination, but from my understanding of the RAW and RAI, it should work. The trick is quite simple - You stack a bunch of floor spots or objects with Glyph of Warding ( Spell Glyph ) and trigger all of them when nearby to gain an infinite amount of concentration spells durations without concentrating ( Yes, it works like that ) or non-concentration buffs or instant heals for that matter.

This can already be cheesed with a Demiplane by the way, a fact that is strangely enough rarely registered in most spellcaster nova builds clutching at every straw for extra boosts, and I've been guilty of that in some of my build posts too. You can leave glyphs in a Demiplane, cast the spell with one action, walk in the door, and exit with every single stacking effect on your spell list.

But can we go even lower level? I've seen discussions online of players previously trying this with magical items like Bag of Holding which has been ruled out for both true reasons, I.E moving glyph items in and out of the bag is against the RAW, but also for false assumptions that were in fact debunked by Sage Advice. Meanwhile a consensus exists that you could achieve it with an item like Portable Hole as long as the glyphs remain where they were cast within the extradimensional space.

Which is the right call regarding the RAW by the way, but still requires a very specific magical item. Bottled Respite, on the other hand, is a level 1 class feature that functions under the same principles, and I'll share some clarifications as to why other than the obvious similarities, starting with some fundamental premises:



Extradimensional spaces are always outside of other planes, and separate from them. Secondly, things which exist on separate planes are always infinitely far away, and your or anything's three-dimensional position on one plane is not relative to the position of anything in another, even if you might intuitively assume so.

So keep in mind that when you teleport inside the 'interior' of the Genie's Vessel, with the physical object/lamp acting as a 'portal key' to activate the planar shift, you are no longer on the Prime, and are infinitely far away from whichever patch of dirt you formerly stood on and infinitely far away from the Vessel's physical exterior back on the prime, and much like a Demiplane, the space you see is relative only to itself.

So you can be reassured that when casting a Glyph inside the Vessel, and someone moves the exterior back on the Prime, it isn't broken just because the exterior was moved 10 feet away from its last position in the Prime. You never cast the spell while standing in that position anyway, and the extradimensional space is infinitely far away from any position on other planes. By the way, same reason you won't mess up your whole decor by turning a vessel upside down and shaking it ( Psst, there's nothing really physically there ).

You might wonder if you are moving the entire plane by moving the vessel, but as demonstrated just above, it isn't the case first of all. Rotating the vessel has no effect, gravity on the Prime has no effect and you can't feel any g-forces by the vessel travelling at high speeds, as long as it doesn't break.

This is, again, because the space, despite its name, is extradimensional to 3D Prime space and exists infinitely far away and outside of the prime rather than inside, per RAW. Either way, the trajectory of whole planes usually isn't considered relevant for the purposes of spells like these. I mean, Toril doesn't even encompass the Prime and yet its Solar Orbit doesn't count, if only beause anything you put on it is atttacted to its center of gravity, and extradimensional spaces have their own gravity sources.

Armed with the judgement of the Compendium and Crawford's definitive statements, RAW is seemingly covered, which means we can use our action on Bottled Respite, get empowered by the might of up to every duration spell in our whole goddamn spell list as long as the effects don't overlap like temp HP, and pop back out into battle. I dub this sequence as 'The Avatar of Mystra' or 'Apotheosis Combo'. And its available to any caster with a level of Genielock.

Even if someone tries to dispel it, they can only dispel one at the time, and Antimagic Field merely surpasses the effects, they're done for as soon as you are out of range. Of course, there is also a significant monetary cost involved with unlimited arcane power, but.. you know which full caster is already incredibly powerful, makes for one of the best builds around with a Genielock, and can create 200gp per spell slot of 2nd level or higher by level 10? You guessed right, a creation bard! Now the expenditure is just in downtime spent to prepare your vessel with glyphs.

Let all the nova burst and summoner and utility caster builders in the realm know: Concentration has fallen, Long Live the Genie King.

It's not available to any caster: spell glyphs can only store prepared spells, per their text.

These casters can't prepare their spells:
Warlocks
Eldritch Knights
Arcane Tricksters
Rangers
Sorcerers
Bards

That leaves preparation casters - Wizards, Artificers, Clerics, Druids, and Paladins.

Druids and Paladins don't have the spell on their spell list and it's a 3rd level spell, so I don't know of a way for them to get the spell without multiclassing. Certainly once they have it, they can spell-glyph their prepared spells.

You need 5 levels of Bard, Cleric, or Wizard, or 9 levels of Artificer, to get your hands on Glyph of Warding. That means a Druid or Paladin trying this trick has to dump a minimum of 6 levels and a maximum of 10 into other classes in order to possess Bottled Respite and Glyph of Warding simultaneously. With only 10 remaining levels for their "primary" class, I'm not sure how... abusable this is, although it does sound promising.

Now, if you're a Wizard, Cleric, or Artificer, and you have CHA 13+, for sure a 1-level dip in Genielock for this trick sounds promising AF if you have the downtime and gp to prepare it. I haven't thought of any other problems with your proposal, although I certainly might have missed something.

Additional note on the gp cost: whether or not a Conjuration Wizard's conjurations retain the gp value of their mundane counterpart is subject to GM houserule, and in spades so is the question of whether a Conjuration Wizard can legally create incense and powdered diamond in bulk, as to many GMs, including me, one object means one object, so if you try to conjure a powder, you get one granule of it. That's why I didn't immediately dispense with the gp cost of the procedure.

[Silpharon]

Sure they are. "Self" = "targets a single creature." The one creature it targets is just always the caster's own self. (Or in this case, the creature that triggered the glyph's own self.)

JC actually said the opposite in a tweet. Suggesting that glyphs cannot contain self target spells. The notion is that the glyph is always acting upon someone/something that triggered it.

There are still plenty of good buffs, but the 'self' ones are still limited to one at a time AFAIK.

[HPisBS]

JC actually said the opposite in a tweet. Suggesting that glyphs cannot contain self target spells. The notion is that the glyph is always acting upon someone/something that triggered it.

... And? That sounds like an absolute non-sequitur. Stupid utterances should always be rejected.

[Silpharon]

... And? That sounds like an absolute non-sequitur. Stupid utterances should always be rejected.

To each their own. I tend to respect JC's opinion to determine RAI, but you're entitled not to. Here's the reference:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...28166745120768

[quindraco]

I did something like this with a high level Wizard character with access to Wish. Apart from covering the lair with traps, she had a few "preparation rooms" full of enhancing glyphs, activated on a password, ranging from the fly/haste everyday combo, to healing for the emergency situations.

One thing to take into account is that this strategy is very expensive, until you get access to Wish. At that point, it is overpowered, so the DM house ruled a limit of active glyphs per character. Even with Wish, this is something that takes time to set up, as you can only cast it once per day. It's good for the special occasions, but you can't use it for every combat.

The Creation Bard combo is nice, but the problem I see is that bards do not have many suitable spells in their list, and they are also limited by the number of spell known.
A quick look at the Bard spell list gives me Cure Wounds, Enhance Ability, Intellect Fortress, NonDetection, Tongues, Freedom of Movement, Invisibility / Greater Invisibility, and True Seeing; these are all great spells, but there is no Fly, Haste, Outiluke Resilient Sphere are not there. You can get them through Magical Secrets, but that is a very steep cost. So you are building your whole character on the assumption that you will be able to power up for the very important fights, including your choice of subclass, but in reality you won't have many buffs to prepare, and you will also have fewer offensive spells known because your selection is tied to the glyph.


Note also that many cool spells such as Globe of Invulnerability, the Investitures etc. are not valid spells because they don't target a create.

Where are people getting the idea Bards can inscribe Spell Glyphs with their Bard spells in the first place? I checked, and there's no errata. You have to have a spell prepared to inscribe it into a Spell Glyph, and Bards can't prepare spells. I see a whole lot of Creation Bard emphasis in this thread, but Wizard and Cleric are the preparation full casters with Glyph of Warding on their spell list - and if your GM is generous enough to let "one object" be a pile of powder, rather than one granule, conjuration wizards are better at the same trick creation bards are good at, due to having no gp limit (the items both classes create emit sensory effects, so it's possible for a GM to house rule these conjured items are worthless and hence can't be valuable spell components, but that ruling would apply to both classes equally). I genuinely don't understand why anyone would even attempt this build with a creation bard rather than a conjuration wizard.

[JNAProductions]

Bards have it natively on their list. Saying they can’t use it seems to be reaching to make it bad.

[Rukelnikov]

Bards have it natively on their list. Saying they can’t use it seems to be reaching to make it bad.

Well, to be fair, the description of GoW says "You can store a prepared spell of 3rd level...", it does say prepared, bards could still use the explosive runes version of the spell.

If the RAW cheese of the spell is allowed, then the RAW limitations should be applied too, otherwise its complaining about something being OP while facilititating it to be OP.

[Valmark]

Well, to be fair, the description of GoW says "You can store a prepared spell of 3rd level...", it does say prepared, bards could still use the explosive runes version of the spell.

If the RAW cheese of the spell is allowed, then the RAW limitations should be applied too, otherwise its complaining about something being OP while facilititating it to be OP.

Admitedly if the DM isn't ruling against such an exploit (which would be easy to rule against while sticking to RAW) then ruling that one specific class doesn't get to use it as intended despite having it on the spell list is indeed a bit pointless.

If I was a bardlock going for it I'd prefer that a DM said 'it doesn't work' instead of 'your character's class can't use the tools it has well'

Unless that was something agreed on beforehand (like a session 0).

[HPisBS]

Admitedly if the DM isn't ruling against such an exploit (which would be easy to rule against while sticking to RAW) ...

How's that again? By saying the interior of an extradimensional space tied to an item is moved when the item moves? If that's it, then OK, sure.

Anything else, like blocking full-fledged Demiplane combos, basically amounts to "It doesn't work because I say it doesn't" (afaict).


Far more reasonable to just make the components harder and harder to come by as the PCs consume them all. If the concern is specifically PCs conjuring their own, then rule that consuming the components breaks the magic on the item(s) before the spell can complete.

[Valmark]

How's that again? By saying the interior of an extradimensional space tied to an item is moved when the item moves? If that's it, then OK, sure.

Anything else, like blocking full-fledged Demiplane combos, basically amounts to "It doesn't work because I say it doesn't" (afaict).


Far more reasonable to just make the components harder and harder to come by as the PCs consume them all. If the concern is specifically PCs conjuring their own, then rule that consuming the components breaks the magic on the item(s) before the spell can complete.

Yes to the first- basically I read it as 'you make the Glyphs inside the Vessel, you move the Vessel (for more then 10 feet), the Glyphs break'.

Demiplane would be perfectly fine as far as I can see, yeah.

[Citadel97501]

Yes to the first- basically I read it as 'you make the Glyphs inside the Vessel, you move the Vessel (for more then 10 feet), the Glyphs break'.

Demiplane would be perfectly fine as far as I can see, yeah.

Well which is why the original poster, noted that Crawford has said that the distance from the exterior of the vessel to the interior is infinite, which suggests that moving them shouldn't matter.

[Valmark]

Well which is why the original poster, noted that Crawford has said that the distance from the exterior of the vessel to the interior is infinite, which suggests that moving them shouldn't matter.

Yeah, if Crawford (or the SAC) was a trustworthy source of information I'd agree. But they are not (and if it was Crawford and not the SAC it doesn't even count as official, which may further not convince a potential DM).

[HPisBS]

Slight tangent: The interior of the vessel is an extradimensional space... does that also mean it exists on some other plane? (For the purposes of effects that only work "as long as you are on the same plane of existence," like Voice of the Chain Master.)


Edit:
Speaking of synergistic invocations, would Ghostly Gaze let you see through the vessel's walls? (You can already hear as though you were in the vessel's space.)