A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    I'm just glad we got the creepy cyborg zombie Borg instead of the insect hive mind they were planning to do in season 1.
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  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Objection: The Kazon were not introduced until Voyager.
    I am assuming that you are being sarcastic because If I remember correctly from Voyager, the Borg had decided that the Kazon were not worth bothering in any way. The Borg, who assimilate everybody they can, decided not to make the effort with the Kazon.

    While these same Kazon are able to blow themselves up with trying to get a replicator working.

    How exactly are the Kazon the Galaxy's biggest threat?
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  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    I am assuming that you are being sarcastic because If I remember correctly from Voyager, the Borg had decided that the Kazon were not worth bothering in any way. The Borg, who assimilate everybody they can, decided not to make the effort with the Kazon.

    While these same Kazon are able to blow themselves up with trying to get a replicator working.

    How exactly are the Kazon the Galaxy's biggest threat?
    Yes, I was mocking the Klingons with the serial numbers filed off Kazon (and, incidentally, also kind of mocking Voyager in how the Kazon were one of their biggest, constant threats).
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  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    I'd think the Krenim would be nominated as the biggest threat, but that would require us to acknowledge Year of Hell instead of pretending that episode got erased from the timeline.
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  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yes, I was mocking the Klingons with the serial numbers filed off Kazon (and, incidentally, also kind of mocking Voyager in how the Kazon were one of their biggest, constant threats).
    The Kazon were never heard from after the first two seasons (except for maybe a time travel episode or two), I wouldn't call them a "biggest threat" or even "constant". And half of their danger came from their alliance with Seska to begin with.
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  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    I'm just glad we got the creepy cyborg zombie Borg instead of the insect hive mind they were planning to do in season 1.
    Pretty sure the Zerg were inspired by the original plan for the Borg.
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  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    Pretty sure the Zerg were inspired by the original plan for the Borg.
    The Zerg are actually based on Tyranids in 40k. Starcraft was originally supposed to be a 40k game. Terran=Space Marines. Protoss=Eldar, Tyranid=Zerg. I guess there was some falling out between Games Workshop and Blizzard and Blizzard changed things enough to prevent a lawsuit.
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    One theory I've seen is that, prior to GW's lawsuits over Warcraft, Starcraft was going to be a Star Wars based game, but after those lawsuits, Blizzard modified Starcraft to be more "GW-ish" specifically to express their annoyance at GW's litigations.

    Something like "Oh, so you're going to claim, unfairly, that we ripped you off? THIS is what it looks like when we rip you off".
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    One theory I've seen is that, prior to GW's lawsuits over Warcraft, Starcraft was going to be a Star Wars based game, but after those lawsuits, Blizzard modified Starcraft to be more "GW-ish" specifically to express their annoyance at GW's litigations.

    Something like "Oh, so you're going to claim, unfairly, that we ripped you off? THIS is what it looks like when we rip you off".
    To be fair, the similarities between Warcraft and Warhammer were not random coincidence. It was a genuine ripoff with things intentionally changed just enough to avoid legal trouble.

  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    To be fair, the similarities between Warcraft and Warhammer were not random coincidence. It was a genuine ripoff with things intentionally changed just enough to avoid legal trouble.
    I got the impression that this description:

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    Starcraft was originally supposed to be a 40k game. Terran=Space Marines. Protoss=Eldar, Tyranid=Zerg. I guess there was some falling out between Games Workshop and Blizzard and Blizzard changed things enough to prevent a lawsuit.
    applies better to WarCraft and Warhammer than Starcraft and 40K - that Blizzard genuinely thought they would have been able to get the licence to make a Warhammer game at the time.

    Whereas with Starcraft they knew, before they even started work, that "doing a 40K game" was never going to happen.
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    The Kazon were never heard from after the first two seasons (except for maybe a time travel episode or two), I wouldn't call them a "biggest threat" or even "constant". And half of their danger came from their alliance with Seska to begin with.
    Fair. I knew they were planned to be this series-long threat but it kind of fizzled when the fans hated them, the cast thought they were stupid, and the writers realized that either the ship wasn't actually going anywhere or the Kazon had one of the largest star empires in the galaxy.
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  12. - Top - End - #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I'd think the Krenim would be nominated as the biggest threat, but that would require us to acknowledge Year of Hell instead of pretending that episode got erased from the timeline.
    Not worth it in my opinion. XD

    Edit:
    Really, the biggest threat should have been running out of fuel. I'd of had Voyager be more like Eastwood's "The man with no name" and shake down space pirates or corrupt folks, raid Borg scouts to get what they need to drive just a bit further towards home. Make this quadrent feel more like the lawless west by showing that the Borg destroyed all the big empires and federation equivalents, leaving scattered groups that weren't worth assimilating.

    Could of had a really interesting arc on the origins of the Borg and find ways to exploit potential rift between classic Borg collective and the Borg queen collective.

    Just spitballing what I wanted to see more of.
    Last edited by DigoDragon; 2021-10-11 at 08:07 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    Not worth it in my opinion. XD

    Edit:
    Really, the biggest threat should have been running out of fuel. I'd have had Voyager be more like Eastwood's "The man with no name" and shake down space pirates or corrupt folks, raid Borg scouts to get what they need to drive just a bit further towards home. Make this quadrent feel more like the lawless west by showing that the Borg destroyed all the big empires and federation equivalents, leaving scattered groups that weren't worth assimilating.

    Could have had a really interesting arc on the origins of the Borg and find ways to exploit potential rift between classic Borg collective and the Borg queen collective.

    Just spitballing what I wanted to see more of.
    I'd be up on that.
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  14. - Top - End - #374
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Season 2 Episode 17
    Samaritan Snare
    Stardate: 42779.1

    [Plot]
    The crew are heading to a star/pulsar cluster place to catalog/survey it. Picard wants to go, but Dr. Pulaski tells Picard that he has to go get his heart (artificial) replaced. Wesley is heading off to take some tests for Starfleet. Dr. Pulaski suggests that Picard head off as well. Picard would rather stay to overlook the star cluster and see it. Dr. Pulaski threatens to pull rank (I think), and Picard basically caves. She does have a point. Oh, and some distress call occurs

    Picard boards the ship with Wesley and they head off to the Starbase. Wesley is very nervous about being on a shuttle with Picard. The two don't really saw much to each other, while Wesley pilots the ship. The shuttle is named the Einstein.

    Meanwhile (In the Land of Nod/Stone Age) Riker goes off to find out what the distress call was about. It is just some overgrown fat babies having problems with their ship. (The Pakleds) They don't know why a thing is not working. (Cue the IT call stuff) Riker tries to solve, then decides to send over Geordi to fix things. Worf asks why send over the ship's chief Engineer. Riker doesn't give a good answer. Then Riker decides to not bother sending any security with Geordi. (Yeah)

    Meanwhile (in the land of wonder), Picard is reading a book while Wesley pilots, and tries to make small talk/conservation. Picard spends little time doing so. it is clear that Picard is very stand-offish here. Picard expresses his frustration on having to go, and we learn with Wesley that Picard has an artificial heart that needs to be replaced. Wesley is curious about that, but Picard won't say anything.

    Meanwhile (with our Pakleds), Riker has firmly grasped the Idiot Ball and hung on for dear life. Geordi fixes a bunch of things, then the Pakleds decide to take him hostage. Then they want Geordi to make them weapons. Riker doesn't do much of anything about this, taking a somewhat haphazard approach (like not just beaming over some security to stun the Pakleds). He has been told by Worf and Troi that the Pakleds are lying over something and clearly not to be trusted. Riker just rolls

    Meanwhile, Picard is moving towards being less stand-offish. He talks about the fact that he has to get a replacement and how he doesn't like anybody knowing about his needing the heart and such. He is not happy about others knowing about it.

    Picard and Wesley have some food together, and Picard, after another series of discussions, explains his reasoning for why he got a fake heart/artificial heart. He had an encounter with some Nausicaans, where he got stabbed through the heart. He had slightly provoked the confrontation (his description of what happens in this episode doesn't match up with what is shown in the Episode Tapestry) and fought. The experience of possibly dying forced some hard lessons on Picard, the main one being his Mortality (from Tapestry, according to Q). He was then a brash foolish arrogant young officer. (Hell-bent for Leather, Tapestry)

    While on the shuttle, Picard has Wesley read a particular book and also mentions some other things that Wesley should be interested in, noting that Wesley should have more than just the Starfleet academy instruction. The items reveal some of Picard's own interests (which will come up later)

    Meanwhile, Riker holds the idiot ball more and the Pakleds try to get Geordi to do things. It is figured out that things were setup to take someone from Starfleet hostage. Something about systems then about weapons/replicators and something. At some point here, Geordi is either zapped by one or 4 phasers (there are 4 pakleds standing around him holding a phaser each)

    Meanwhile, Picard gets to the facility for his operation, and Wesley, who was asked (ordered, most like) by Dr. Pulaski, goes off for the operation. The Operation happens but complications ensue (Naturally) and so Dr. Pulaski arrives from the Enterprise to help assist. Picard finds out later, But Dr. Pulaski notes that she will not comment.

    Meanwhile & During & Between; Events happen for Geordi to figure out some plan with the crew. They get the pakleds to back down and release Geordi. Then the Crew hears about the complications with Picard and head off.

    After every, Wesley is being congratulated on his successful tests and he continues on for further study aboard the ship. We have some resolution of Picard's worries about how he would be percieved.

    [Rating]
    Non Picard & Wesley & Dr. Pulaski Storyline) 1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)
    &
    Picard & Wesley & Dr. Pulaski Storyline) 5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on

    {Episode Commentary}
    So first off, I forgot about how in Pen Pals, the actor playing Ensign Davies also ends up playing the role of Timor at the Trill Caves in Deep Space Nine. So there was that.

    I liked everything about Picard & Wesley & Dr. Pulaski because it gives us some really great characterization of Picard, and we learn a considerable amount about him which will be followed up on. His love of Archaeology, of Philosophy, of Shakespear, of His History and how it shaped him. The deal with the heart will lead to the Episode Tapestry, which is one of my favorite episodes. Then we get good bonding with Picard with Wesley, encouraging Wesley, and Dr. Pulaski with Picard too. That part is all really good.

    Sadly, the other half of the Episode is simply plain terrible. It requires giving Riker an idiot ball to get running, and the story even lampshades how the main characters do everything. Even worse, it follows out that the entire plot might have been changed up had Riker sent even one security guard with Geordi. That makes it all the worse

    Then there is how Riker has both Worf and Troi telling him that Geordi is in danger, something that he has reason to ignore with Troi's empathic abilities. So Riker runs with scissors, and Geordi gets in danger. Then we have the Pakleds.

    The Pakleds, like the Ferengi are heavily undermined in the episode, making them more irritating than threatening. There is no hidden cunning, or anything. The Pakleds are as stupid as they are made out to be. And some how they managed to get technology from both Klingons and Romulans. On the ship. There are no words to describe how incrediably embarassing to those races that has to be. I am guessing that either group of them involved ever decided that they wouldn't talk about it.

    Then we have the fact that the story is frankly not that great really. It is Geordi focused, but there is almost no really compelling element/motion to the story. I really just don't know what the actual point was supposed to have been. I started skipping through the parts with the Pakleds to get the parts with Picard & Wesley. A good storyline doesn't make you want to do that.

    To be honest, you could have made another Geordi focused episode but completely gone without employing the Pakleds or any of their plotting. That said, I also refuse to accept as Canon anything that is said about Pakleds in the Lower Decks because i cannot buy it.

    So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

    Trackers)
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    I agree entirely with your assessment of this episode. We got a lot of character development for Captain Picard, and I think this episode made Dr. Pulaski look like a million bucks. Wesley... was also there. But then the other half of the episode is nothing more than a dumb way to tie up the rest of the crew so that they have something to do. I guess it's nice to see Worf actually proved right for once, instead of being mostly there to suggest a harsh course of action just so Picard can dismiss it. That said, the way it was done really does make Riker look like a fool. It's amazing Worf doesn't drop a well-earned "I told you so" on Riker once they have Geordi back.
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    I think I vaguely remember this one, are the Pakleds the ‘we get things to make us go’ people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    I think I vaguely remember this one, are the Pakleds the ‘we get things to make us go’ people?
    Yes, I'm afraid so.

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    I have no shame in loving the Pakleds (and loving them even more in Lower Decks).
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I have no shame in loving the Pakleds (and loving them even more in Lower Decks).
    I agree here. Pakleds were just terrible in TNG, but somehow Lower Decks manages to make them a real threat. Almost idiot-savant in some ways.

    It's also interesting that it's Captain Riker fighting them off in LD. Guess he finally learned.
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    Fun Fact: the Naussicaans are named after an anime.
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Fun Fact: the Naussicaans are named after an anime.
    An anime about a post nuclear apocalypse no less.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Fun Fact: the Naussicaans are named after an anime.
    Probably true, but do we actually know for a fact that they weren't named after the original character in the Odyssey?

  23. - Top - End - #383
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSh View Post
    Probably true, but do we actually know for a fact that they weren't named after the original character in the Odyssey?
    Memory Alpha claims it's both.
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  24. - Top - End - #384
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    So, we are only 4 episodes away from ending the Season. Has been slightly quicker, since there are not as many. Season 1 had 25 Episodes and Season 2 has only 22. So, we are nearly finished with it.

    ----------------------------------------

    Season 2 Episode 18
    Up The Long Ladder
    Stardate: 42823.2

    [Plot]
    The crew go to answer a distress call of an older sort, with Morse, and also Worf gets the Measles (?), at least the Klingon Version of it. The distress call is for a colony of what end up being some space Irish, that play into Certain Stereotypes (Colm Meaney, who plays O'Brien is Irish, so He does some Meta-acting; Like the real actor's feelings are being reflected in how he plays Miles in this Episode)

    Something went wrong for the Space Irish, so they need a ride somewhere. Then the crew also discover another group of the same original colonists, on another world, that have turned to cloning to maintain their numbers. Naturally, the colonists with the cloning have run into problems with their equipment and are hoping to have help from the crew, to both fix the equipment and get some new genetic material. The crew will offer one of those, and it is a major issue for the second. Not that the cloning colonists listen, since they try to later clone Riker and Dr. Pulaski (I guess)

    Picard, of course, must find a way to solve the various issues of what to do with both groups. Despite that both groups have considerably diverged from the original colonial plan of the settlers, Picard decides to fuse the two groups of colonists together again. That would probably make an interesting element to follow up on.

    Also, Worf gets help with his issue from Dr. Pulaski and he rewards her with a special Tea ceremony, naturally Klingon style. It is a rather nice moment, showing how much Dr. Pulaski has come to interact with her shipmates

    Also, after spending time with Riker, the daughter of the Space Irish's Leader decides to charge some / Is encouraged by Picard.

    [Rating]
    3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

    {Episode Commentary}
    Yeah, there are stereotypes, but I think that more of the focus is about the two missing colonies and what to do with them. Along with how to solve both groups problems: The Space Irish need a new place to live, and the Cloning Colonists don't have enough genetic material to keep doing that. So Picard is basically trying to come up with something that helps both groups out.

    Naturally this ends up simply being joining them together. With some interesting implications towards the future.

    The other part that appears a little bit, is all about the clones of Riker and Dr. Pulaski. Both clones get destroyed, and Riker doesn't like the idea of another Will Riker. (Though there will be the transporter duplicate in a later episode) It happens a little quickly to be noticed to be thought of, or I think that it goes through a little quickly for establishing enough to highlight or really notice.

    The main part also really is watching Colm Meaney/Meany reacting in reality to everything about the Space Irish, and how funny that is. Then there is the crew interacting with the Space Irish. It is apparently intended to be some source of humor for the episode. Probably falls under how much offense is taken, but it does have one quality:

    So, in Code of Honor, African Cultural Stereotypes appear. I think that it happens in that episode that those were treated as being way more seriously than in this episode. One (Code of Honor) took it seriously, while here the stereotypes are heavily played for laughs. To be honest, I don't know whether it works out or not.

    Of course, the Space Irish don't have any real experience with technology, at least that of the ship, and so there is some of that present in the episode.

    The stuff with Worf is somewhat interesting. He has a Klingon illness, and has a Klingon ceremony. It is a nice inclusion but it doesn't elevate or detract from the Episode in my opinion.

    Overall, I would say that It feels like a pretty regular episode of Star Trek and how it usually goes. Also, Riker hooks up with daughter of the Space Irish's Leader in this episode.

    So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

    Trackers)
    Prime Directive Hell: 1
    Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
    Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
    Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
    Poker Playing: 1
    Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 3 (Prime Directive)
    Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
    Hidden Gems: 4
    Funny Guest Star Appearances: 3 ()
    Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
    Prime Directives: 2
    Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
    Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
    Riker Romances Something/Someone: 2
    Pithy Aesops: 1
    Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory";
    Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
    Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
    Actually Alien Aliens: 1
    Lore's Appearances: 1
    *Data's Emotions: 3
    *Troi Troubles: 1
    *Money Matters: 1
    Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
    1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
    2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:
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  25. - Top - End - #385
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post

    The main part also really is watching Colm Meaney/Meany reacting in reality to everything about the Space Irish, and how funny that is. Then there is the crew interacting with the Space Irish. It is apparently intended to be some source of humor for the episode. Probably falls under how much offense is taken, but it does have one quality:

    So, in Code of Honor, African Cultural Stereotypes appear. I think that it happens in that episode that those were treated as being way more seriously than in this episode. One (Code of Honor) took it seriously, while here the stereotypes are heavily played for laughs. To be honest, I don't know whether it works out or not.
    Melinda M. Snodgrass, who wrote the episode explained that she intended the episode to be a commentary on immigration, with the non-clones being the "filthy foreigners". In her pitch to Maurice Hurley, she used his own Irish heritage as a touchpoint to get an idea of what she was going for. He liked the idea, but insisted on making the non-clones into Space Irish. That's probably where the strangeness you're commenting on came from.

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