New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

[factotum]

There's at least one episode of "Enterprise" where the NX-01 had to rendezvous with the NX-02 at warp and actually go inside the latter's warp bubble, all without dropping out of warp, plus, as you mention, photon torpedoes have to be able to penetrate a ship's warp bubble or they'd be largely useless.

[Peelee]

There's at least one episode of "Enterprise" where the NX-01 had to rendezvous with the NX-02 at warp and actually go inside the latter's warp bubble, all without dropping out of warp, plus, as you mention, photon torpedoes have to be able to penetrate a ship's warp bubble or they'd be largely useless.

That effectively equates ramming at warp speed to ramming at sub-warp speed. At least, with other objects at warp.

[russdm]

netflix dropped st tng, so i will need to locate another source of the show to continue. should be a quick thing.

[Velaryon]

Oh wow, that's surprising after it was on there for so many years. And it looks like they got rid of TOS as well. Actually, everything but DS9 for some reason.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Oh wow, that's surprising after it was on there for so many years. And it looks like they got rid of TOS as well. Actually, everything but DS9 for some reason.

Because paramount plus has next to no content aside from StarTrek. So they aren’t renewing contracts with rival streaming services.
Once DS9s streaming contract expires it will be gone too.

[Velaryon]

Eww. Guess I'd better press on with my re-watch.

[russdm]

so I have a source for the re-watch, using amazon, until I can buy the DvDs. so I will have the next episode up later this week.

i did want to talk about the status of a certain bunch along with other villains, especially since we finished the Romulan admiral episode.

the klingons and the romulans and once they are introduced, the cardassians, all make for good antagonists for our heroes and provide plenty of single episode plots. so they will get a few more episodes but sadly they are all overshadowed by what is in my opinion, the worst star trek villain

the borg

their introduction made them a mysterious and curious group and the season 3 end episode about the borg works but past it, they become a really crappy thing, zombies

yeah, the borg get turned into a bunch of zombies that wear technology. Thanks to the horrible Zombie Movie Genre, Whose founder or whoever came up with the first truly recognizable Zombie movie should have be shot the day before making it as a written script (Zombie movies basically run on Idiot Plot and Idiot Ball and are a blasphamy), Trek apparently to have their own zombies. So that's what the Borg became.

Zombies.

Good Lord Above, what idiocy is this?

To be honest, I already hate the Borg anyway, but the direction that they went, especially in later seasons and in the first contact movie was the completely wrong direction. It has almost no validity and making them zombies triggered their villain decay. The borg could have worked as a hive mind type bunch, but that was clearly not workable enough, for some clearly {scrubbed} writers.

it is impossible to take any threat seriously to the Federation after the Borg show up in their new form, because the thought that keeps popping up is why has the Borg not showed up again. Why is the Federation still running? Why possible point does have any episode have after whenever the borg show up again?

The borg effectively seriously murder all future drama in the Series. Klingon Civil War? The borg do that thing they do. Threats from the Romulans? Borg show up to say hi. Something relating to whatevers? Borg crash the party.

Having created the borg as such a "kIll them all" threat, the writers had to deliberately act like the borg didn't exist anymore. Only the Dominion presents the same kind of threat to the Federation, and they work better.

The borg can really be seen as a progress of how the TNG series went from being starting to get good to just winding down to hum-drum. the borg have to make almost new further appearances to maintain their threat. When voyager did it's thing with them, it ruined them. well, no, because they were already ruined before Voyager aired.

the borg are ultimately worse than the Ferengi.

[Gnoman]

It is very unlikely that the zombie genre had any influence on the Borg. It was more of a comedy genre than a horror one at that point (the spoof Return of The Living Dead series started in 1985, the same year that the original Romero series ground to a screeching halt), and it wasn't until the early 200s that people started to take it seriously again.

The changes to the Borg were pretty incremental and evolutionary. Initially they're purely into technology. Then they decide to assimilate Picard to facilitate their expansion into the Alpha Quadrant by crushing the single most powerful faction. Then assimilation became their entire existence.

It is very much worth noting that a lot of the ideas that went into the Bork were kicking around the franchise for a long time. Roddenberry's writings during the time between series suggest that most human had merged into a hive mind, with the starship crews being the few who rejected this harmony and were thus able to tolerate the separation. This was a popular notion in utopian sci-fi during the 70s - the classic Forever War and the lesser-known work by the same author Forever Peace both hinge on it. It is much more likely that the Borg are a edgy early-90s revival of that notion.

As to why the Borg don't just come in and ruin the Federation, it is pretty explicit in TNG that the Borg are from Away. The first encounter between the Federation and the Borg was over two years away by any Federation propulsion system, and required the intervention of Q to happen in the first place. By the official timeline, the time between this encounter and Wolf 359 is very close to that time span. The easiest explanation is that there is only one cube involved in the TNG events - it runs into the Enterprise courtesy of Q, figures out where the ship came from, and zips over to the origin to conquer. That's the last major appearance until First Contact many years later. So, from the Borg perspective they had a scout running around, it got blasted, then they sent a second scout.

Voyager contradicts a lot of this with the introduction of Transwarp, but also creates other situations that can excuse the Borg being unconcerned with sending serious force against such a minor threat.

[DigoDragon]

My initial problem with the Borg was why they all looked so... samey. For a group that assimilated so many aliens they all sure look alike. Yeah, it's probably a budget thing. Still bothered me.

But I agree that villain decay hit them really hard. Their initial episode was so good and Best of Both Worlds was great. After that... eh.

[KillianHawkeye]

I mean, would we rather have had the Borg been the culmination of those bug creatures that lived in peoples' throats and took over their bodies? Because that was what those were originally supposed to be.

I think cyborg hive-mind with expendable troops is way cooler.

But if you want to talk about the Borg getting destroyed, we have to all watch ST Picard season 2.

[DigoDragon]

I mean, would we rather have had the Borg been the culmination of those bug creatures that lived in peoples' throats and took over their bodies? Because that was what those were originally supposed to be.

I thought those bug things was gonna be the plot point for the Picard series, cause my first exposure to it turned out to be a meme with Riker asking Picard, "You remember those bugs that were in people that we destroyed. We told someone about that, right?"

XD

[Caledonian]

To be honest, I already hate the Borg anyway, but the direction that they went, especially in later seasons and in the first contact movie was the completely wrong direction.

The movie "First Contact" wasn't written by thoughtful people carefully considering the concepts involved.

Consider the bit where the Borg Queen (ugh!) is tempting Data by grafting skin onto his arm, then blowing on it. Data freaks out at the sensation.

...but 'sensation' just the brain processing signals sent from sense organs. If Data's 'nerves' couldn't send signals from the skin, there'd be nothing to react to; if Data's brain couldn't process those signals, there's be no special reaction. If the nerves can send the signals and the brain can process them, there'd be nothing new about it - Data could always have experienced that sensation, simply by feeding a signal into his nerves, or into his CPU directly. Just as a human can be made to experience a sensation without necessarily inducing the physical situation the sensation is meant to signify.

See? They weren't thinking about that.

The whole point of the Borg is that they have no individuality and are ridiculously redundant and interchangeable. They have no need for a 'Queen'. And that isn't how insect queens work! The 'queens' don't direct the hive, they're just egg factories. Experiments with bees show that if you block the chemical-producing organs that let the queens send and respond to recognition signals, the worker bees will kill her, and raise another queen that responds appropriately to the hive. The hive mind isn't dependent on any individual, but is the collective behavior of the entire hive communicating within itself.

[russdm]

getting this going again. just have been busy with school as i am finishing up my bacholer's degree

[Peelee]

getting this going again. just have been busy with school as i am finishing up my bacholer's degree

Oh neat! What field?

[Rodin]

The movie "First Contact" wasn't written by thoughtful people carefully considering the concepts involved.

Consider the bit where the Borg Queen (ugh!) is tempting Data by grafting skin onto his arm, then blowing on it. Data freaks out at the sensation.

...but 'sensation' just the brain processing signals sent from sense organs. If Data's 'nerves' couldn't send signals from the skin, there'd be nothing to react to; if Data's brain couldn't process those signals, there's be no special reaction. If the nerves can send the signals and the brain can process them, there'd be nothing new about it - Data could always have experienced that sensation, simply by feeding a signal into his nerves, or into his CPU directly. Just as a human can be made to experience a sensation without necessarily inducing the physical situation the sensation is meant to signify.

See? They weren't thinking about that.

The whole point of the Borg is that they have no individuality and are ridiculously redundant and interchangeable. They have no need for a 'Queen'. And that isn't how insect queens work! The 'queens' don't direct the hive, they're just egg factories. Experiments with bees show that if you block the chemical-producing organs that let the queens send and respond to recognition signals, the worker bees will kill her, and raise another queen that responds appropriately to the hive. The hive mind isn't dependent on any individual, but is the collective behavior of the entire hive communicating within itself.

The Borg Queen only exists because a movie needs a primary villain for the heroes to take down, despite this rarely being the case in Star Trek. It's part of why I've soured on First Contact as time has gone on, to the point that I actually believe Generations to be the superior movie. Not by a lot, mind you, but at least the plot in Generations wasn't pants-on-head stupid.

As for good Borg episodes, I thought that "I, Borg" was pretty good. Everything after that was just kinda...weird.

[Caledonian]

A movie doesn't *need* a primary villain, in the sense of a distinct individual, to be taken down. The villain in that movie was the Borg.

[KillianHawkeye]

The Borg Queen exists because insect hives upon which they're based also have queens.

[Kantaki]

The Borg Queen exists because insect hives upon which they're based also have queens.

So her function is to lay tons of robot eggs?

The best explanation I've ever stumbled across was that the Queen(s) have some administrative function.
They're basically there to keep the network(s) on track if the collective gets to big to keep everything connected without delays and/or parts get cut off from the whole.

So, the Queen doesn't control the collective, she is the collective.
Now, obviously that function doesn't require a body, but with everything the Borg assimilated they might've picked up the importance of fanservice err... having someone to talk face to face with people when their usual methods of contact don't work.

[Caledonian]

The Borg Queen exists because insect hives upon which they're based also have queens.

Nope. Insects do not have anything at all like a Borg Queen. If the Borg Queen were like insect queens, she'd be the perpetual overseer of the biological replication functions and would have no more individuality than any other.

Nor are Borg drones like insect drones, which are the males and do no useful task other than fertilizing the queens on their mating flights.

[hamishspence]

Nope. Insects do not have anything at all like a Borg Queen. If the Borg Queen were like insect queens, she'd be the perpetual overseer of the biological replication functions and would have no more individuality than any other.

True - but fictional aliens based on insect hives tend to invest much more autonomy in one member - a "leader". The Aliens movie had a similar thing, with the Queen being much smarter than the drones and able to direct them.

Star Trek First Contact may be taking inspiration from that sort of thing, rather than directly from the way insects really are.


I think Aliens-related material may also be partly responsible for the use of "drone" for soldiers/workers, rather than solely-breeders, in fiction.

It's not unheard of for white collar workers to be called "drones" after all.

[Bohandas]

The whole point of the Borg is that they have no individuality and are ridiculously redundant and interchangeable. They have no need for a 'Queen'. And that isn't how insect queens work! The 'queens' don't direct the hive, they're just egg factories. Experiments with bees show that if you block the chemical-producing organs that let the queens send and respond to recognition signals, the worker bees will kill her, and raise another queen that responds appropriately to the hive. The hive mind isn't dependent on any individual, but is the collective behavior of the entire hive communicating within itself.

She's not an insect queen though, she's a witch queen; a necromancer.

The borg queen represents a shift in tone from the borg being zombie apocalypse movie zombies that spread organically as the result of a weird virus, to being fantasy movie zombies under the control of an evil necromancer with aspirations of world domination

[Rodin]

A movie doesn't *need* a primary villain, in the sense of a distinct individual, to be taken down. The villain in that movie was the Borg.

I know that. You know that.

Hollywood doesn't appear to. That's why so many Star Trek movies have distinct individual villains where the show would have a wibbly wobbly space phenomena or a Big Dumb Object.

Sometimes this is good, like with Khan. Other times, it's very, very bad, like with the borg Queen. Or CumberKhan.

The insistence on repeatedly doing this drove the movie franchise into the ground.

[Caledonian]

The real villain in STII wasn't Khan, but overconfidence and arrogance. Kirk defeats his, Khan doesn't.

[KillianHawkeye]

The Borg Queen exists because insect hives upon which they're based also have queens.

So her function is to lay tons of robot eggs?

Nope. Insects do not have anything at all like a Borg Queen. If the Borg Queen were like insect queens, she'd be the perpetual overseer of the biological replication functions and would have no more individuality than any other.

Nor are Borg drones like insect drones, which are the males and do no useful task other than fertilizing the queens on their mating flights.

That's not what I said. I never said the Borg Queen served the same function as an insect queen. I said the Borg are based on hive insects and hive insects have a queen, therefore the Borg have a queen.

Being a hyper intelligent hive mind, the Borg's Queen obviously is more of a queen in a leadership sense than in a motherhood sense. Different situation, different results. And also what hamishpence said about Aliens and other hive mind queens in pop culture.



In the First Contact film, the Borg Queen serves the role of the load-bearing villain whose defeat equals the defeat of all the other enemies in the story. It's dumb, but a very common film trope. It happens because writers often create an enemy whose forces are so overwhelming that there's no other way to defeat them than to "cut off the head" and assume everything else has to stop fighting. I mean, just imagine if Picard and Data, alone on the Enterprise, had to actually kill all the Borgs on the ship in order to safely pick up the crew and go back to their own time? It would never happen.

But of course, this brings us to the part where we have to admit that the TNG-era films (at least after Generations) are just sci-fi dressed action movies rather than well thought out Star Treks.

[DigoDragon]

But of course, this brings us to the part where we have to admit that the TNG-era films (at least after Generations) are just sci-fi dressed action movies rather than well thought out Star Treks.

Yeah, that I can agree with. Undiscovered Country is an action-oriented movie, but it has a really good theme as it's foundation-- an end to the Federation/Klingon cold war. This is a permeant change to the in-universe status quo! That bothers many people on both sides of the border, and you have people like Kirk who wonder if he's become a relic of an era and cannot adapt to the changing times. This is good story telling worthy of a movie treatment. The Next Gen movies lack a big idea that changes the status quo. They feel more like just big budget episodes at best. Not very well thought out episodes either. The action is nice, but in the end things go back to business as usual.

Nemesis tried to change the status quo, but it was a bit of a jumbled mess in my opinion. It gets there, but after tripping over itself. Downstairs.

[russdm]

and we are back!!!

last time

Spoiler: last time

Show

Season 3 Episode 10
The Defector
Stardate: 43452.5

[Plot]
Data and Picard are doing a holodeck program of Henry 5, with Data doing the role. Picard comes in later, and talks to Data about the value of Shakespeare's work and also how it relates to learning/knowing about humanity. The show is cut short due to news: A Romulan ship has been picked up heading towards them in a way.

On the bridge, the crew discover the Romulan ship is being followed by a warbird. It fires on the romulan ship, and the after Picard and crew get in touch with the romulan ship, and do a shield thingy, the warbird leaves.

The romulan ship has Setal, a romulan defector. He claims to know about a plan by the romulans to invade or build a base that is important. Setal blows up his own ship, and he knows some good Klingon Curses. Worf is naturally suspicious.

Picard talks with a Black admiral guy, (who shows up again in the wounded) who tells Picard to tread carefully. Setal refuses to answer well, and later meets up with Data. Data talks with La Forge about guts, then goes to visit Setal.

Setal and Data visit the holodeck, and Setal has an awakening of sorts. Setal re-introduces himself as being Admiral Jarok. Black Admiral lets Picard know some things. Picard makes some kind of arrangement with the Klingons.

Picard confronts Jarok, who finally accepts that Jarok has become a traitor. The Crew fly off to Nelvana 3 and they go cautiously. All they find is a probe, or a source not big enough to be what Jarok was claiming.

G'Kar appears, after shooting the Enterprise. He and Picard exchange words, then 3 Klingon ships appear. With two Warbirds against the Enterprise and 3 Klingon ships, G'Kar decides that he doesn't like going out in a mutual kill, so he stands down. The Enterprise and Klingons leave.

Jarok kills himself with something that he had brought along, but left a note that he hoped would make it to his family.

[Rating]
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on
A Hidden Gem

{Episode Commentary}
This is probably one of the best episodes of the season, and it has great storytelling. The dynamic between Picard and G'Kar, along with the character arc for Admiral Jarok is pretty good. Then there is the subtle pointers to the Klingons showing up.Then, there is the use of the Henry 5 stuff and making it relate to Picard's thinking. That was good too.

There doesn't happen to be anything bad in this episode, beyond the little hint about Jarok having brought suicide pill. It appears in a very brief shot, but doesn't really express what it was supposed to be. So it can be a little random about where the suicide pill that Jarok used came from. But if you know what to look for, you do get to see it.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 6
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 5 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1
*Money Matters: 1
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

Season 3 Episode 11
The Hunted
Stardate: 43489.2

[Plot]
the crew have gone to a planet that has recently finished a war and also the planet wants to join the federation. things look nice

it turns out there is an escaped prisoner that picard ends up helping to catch. the first attempt is unsuccessful. then the prisoner is beamed onto the ship. the prisoner is roga danar. he takes some effort to stun.

as it turns out, roga has no life signs. and he happens to be able to withstand some serious stun phaser shots. He has something, that makes troi come say hi. she talks with roga. then data talks with roga. Picard talks with the leader of the planet. picard is not happy

roga is one of several planet citizens that were made into super soldiers. he fools the sensors with having no life signs, and he can break a transporter beam, as shown later. he is also fairly strong, able to go hand to hand to worf some, before he has to drop some barrels on worf. He is smart and cunning, and etc. Troi is impressed with roga some.

Roga escapes, naturally, and leads the crew on a merry chase. He beats worf by using barrels, then steals a shuttle thing. THen he gathers some merry band of guys and visits the planet.

picard visits the planet, where he basically tells the planet leader guy off, and just goes back to the ship. maybe the planet leader guy will survive

[Rating]
could have been
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.
turns out as
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

{Episode Commentary}
so this episode could have been better. No effort is made to establish anything about Roga and his past life before he became a soldier. So all of his efforts and whining about needing to get his life back and needing more than just to survive just simply fall flat.

without any backstory for Roga beyond him becoming a soldier, I don't know what he lost and so don't know what he would gain. There is nothing about what happened before, and so it seems more like that Roga simply didn't exist before being a soldier. That makes it seem like there was nothing beforehand. So i have no idea what Roga is fighting to restore for himself. Was he a painter? did he write? did he have family? none of that matters.

This makes Roga's plight and that of the other soldiers very un-existing. I don't think it makes feel sympathy for Roga, and as a result, I don't find that I care about anyone in the episode at all. It makes the episode come across as wishy-washy

I kept hoping for something to show why what Roga did mattered, but nothing but some words happened. That made me disappointed. Roga and his motivations and his backstory could have made for some compelling story telling. instead we get some hot air.

This is also an episode that features the prime directive, in one of its non-stupid portrayals. Picard acts well here, versus other prime directive episodes where he be very smug. This episode actually demonstrates a good way of the prime directive rule of not interfering in cultures that have warp drives or the equilvant.

I don't think this episode was as good as it could have been. It had great promise. One thing that could have been was a big battle thing as Roga and soldiers show up on the planet. To be honest, I really don't think that including a big battle with explosions would have worked or had done proper attention or due diligance to Roga and his pals. I think that it would have been simply too much

Picard makes a mention of internal security and oppressors, not sure why. comes out of nowhere.

also, we learn nothing about the war that Roga was in and if it was against bug people or human looking people. Also, Roga doesn't act surprised when he sees Worf, our Klingon.

Then there is some bits about exploring data and how data is. that part was really good.

and lastly, the planet leader guy is james cromwell, who shows up later, and is also zefrem cochrane.

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

also, we are one episode away from the next appearance of Q, and some episodes that are hidden gems, including the season's very best episode (Sins of the Father) also Gems (deja Q, yesterday's enterprise, sins of the father, captain's holiday, tin man, hollow pursuits, sarek)
and of course the season's worst episode (Best of Both Worlds)
in my opinion, that is

Trackers)
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 1 (their first episode)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 6
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 6 (james cromwell)
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1
*Money Matters: 1
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

[Gnoman]

The past of the super-soldiers is irrelevant. They're people turned into little more than killing machines for the benefit of their rulers, then locked away forever because those leaders are afraid of what they have created. Their very existence is all you need to know about them.

[DigoDragon]

Iif you take out the super soldier plot, what is left for this episode to talk about? ^^
I agree that there really needed to be some backstory to Roga so we feel invested.

[GloatingSwine]

The past of the super-soldiers is irrelevant. They're people turned into little more than killing machines for the benefit of their rulers, then locked away forever because those leaders are afraid of what they have created. Their very existence is all you need to know about them.

I think the episode puts too much focus on Roga Danar for that to really work. Like sure, it *could* be a social sci-fi about the society that created these super soldiers and how it tried to bury them and what that says about a society when it does that (Khan? Never heard of him.), but 3/5 of the episode is about that one guy.

So it kinda needed to show where he was coming from as a person more, and use that as the lens for the social side of the story.

[Peelee]

I think the episode puts too much focus on Roga Danar for that to really work. Like sure, it *could* be a social sci-fi about the society that created these super soldiers and how it tried to bury them and what that says about a society when it does that (Khan? Never heard of him.), but 3/5 of the episode is about that one guy.

Imean, First Blood was a social sci-fi about the society that created these super soldiers and how it tried to bury them and what that says about a society when it does that, but 3/5 of the episode and the entire movie is about that one guy. And that's one of the best movies ever made.