A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
You can get A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2 now at Gumroad
Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314 LastLast
Results 241 to 270 of 416
  1. - Top - End - #241
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lord Vukodlak's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Spoiler: later TNG episodes
    Show
    I thought old Noonien Soong was done pretty well. Took me awhile to catch on that it was Brent Spiner too!
    Well sure when the aging makeup is make the actor appear as a different person. Otherwise itís always over the top.
    Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.

  2. - Top - End - #242
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    Well sure when the aging makeup is make the actor appear as a different person. Otherwise itís always over the top.
    Of course it's going to seem over the top if done to an established character. It's the same reason my friend's kid can get scared of him if he shaves his beard off: you get used to a person's face being a certain way, and a significant change is going to be jarring.

    A new character with aging makeup is the only version of their face we know, and doesn't have that disadvantage.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-09-09 at 04:57 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #243
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lord Vukodlak's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Of course it's going to seem over the top if done to an established character. It's the same reason my friend's kid can get scared of him if he shaves his beard off: you get used to a person's face being a certain way, and a significant change is going to be jarring.

    A new character with aging makeup is the only version of their face we know, and doesn't have that disadvantage.
    What I mean by over the top is this, its often cartoonistly exaggerated, the philosophy seems to be melt their face.
    DeForest Kelley made a cameo as a 137 year old Bones during Encounter at Far Point. And they managed to make him look really old without melting his face.
    Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.

  4. - Top - End - #244
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    What I mean by over the top is this, its often cartoonistly exaggerated, the philosophy seems to be melt their face.
    DeForest Kelley made a cameo as a 137 year old Bones during Encounter at Far Point. And they managed to make him look really old without melting his face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    Well sure when the aging makeup is make the actor appear as a different person. Otherwise itís always over the top.
    I thought you were saying TNG aging makeup effects were only bad on recognizable, familiar characters, but your reference to DeForest Kelley would also count as a familiar character, right?

    If you disliked Dr. P's makeup in particular, I don't disagree. It just seemed like you were talking about aging makeup in TNG more broadly.

  5. - Top - End - #245
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    By Bellevue, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    If you disliked Dr. P's makeup in particular, I don't disagree. It just seemed like you were talking about aging makeup in TNG more broadly.
    I am personally referring to Dr. P's makeup myself. It is pretty bad. It smashes/smushes her face out and stretches it out slightly. It doesn't look like how you would expect the actress to go on aging. Like Admiral Jameson it is pretty bad. The same with using an actor for wesley that doesn't work either earlier.

    In the Inner Light (the kataan episode, whichever episode that is) Picard gets older and they have good aging makeup. In the series finale, they give Picard and the other cast members good aging makeup. In the 4th season of DS9 with aged up crew (the one with Sisko ends up in that white place and Jake gets older), they do a good job.

    But Dr. P is bad makeup. When we meet oldSoong, they get good makeup. But yet we don't get good makeup for Dr. P. Which is just plain awful.
    Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
    Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wookiee. 2 E's. [I am obsessed with this]
    My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)

  6. - Top - End - #246
    Titan in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Imagination Land
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Wow, it's almost as if they got better at it as they went along!
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

    Watch me draw and swear at video games.

  7. - Top - End - #247
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Two questions.

    First, the trackers are longer that the summary, review, and thoughts at this point. And most of them are pretty low. Are all of them really?

    Second, what's up with only ever saying "Dr. P" instead of just using her name?
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hroĢila View Post
    Peelee's genius status confirmed
    Seconded.

  8. - Top - End - #248
    Titan in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Imagination Land
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Second, what's up with only ever saying "Dr. P" instead of just using her name?
    My guess is not everyone can spell Pulaski.
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

    Watch me draw and swear at video games.

  9. - Top - End - #249
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Two questions.

    First, the trackers are longer that the summary, review, and thoughts at this point. And most of them are pretty low. Are all of them really?

    Second, what's up with only ever saying "Dr. P" instead of just using her name?
    We had more trackers than episodes at one point, and now they're only slightly behind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  10. - Top - End - #250
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    England. Ish.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Two questions.

    First, the trackers are longer that the summary, review, and thoughts at this point. And most of them are pretty low. Are all of them really?

    Second, what's up with only ever saying "Dr. P" instead of just using her name?
    It's almost as if he doesn't like the character. He'll be calling Wesley Crusher by his initials next. (Actually, that would probably be a bigger insult, at least in this country... I'm not sure even Wesley deserves that!)

    Really, the trackers aren't adding anything to the process in the first place, and adding five simply to denegrate Dr Pulaski just looks petty. I don't bother reading them.
    Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.

    "The main skill of a good ruler seems to be not preventing the conflagrations but rather keeping them contained enough they rate more as campfires." Rogar Demonblud

    "Hold on just a d*** second. UK has spam callers that try to get you to buy conservatories?!? Even y'alls spammers are higher class than ours!" Peelee

  11. - Top - End - #251
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    By Bellevue, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Two questions.

    First, the trackers are longer that the summary, review, and thoughts at this point. And most of them are pretty low. Are all of them really?

    Second, what's up with only ever saying "Dr. P" instead of just using her name?
    Think of the issues being how much there is to say. Not all of the recent episodes have left a strong impression, one of finding things to say. Like some episodes have been just "meh" (3 in rating).
    I can include links to the Memory Alpha and TVTropes recaps of Episodes. For the Summaries.

    As for small reviews/thoughts, well, we are still in the early season here. It is season 2, early parts, and the "Riker's Beard" has not fallen into it's full stride of effects.

    As for Dr. Pulaski, I was not sure if I could remember her correctly all of the time.

    As for the Trackers, Well, I would have to say that some of them are not just firing yet. Plus, If you feel that I have missed one, then feel free to add it in. I will adjust the trackers to reflect.

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    My guess is not everyone can spell Pulaski.
    Well, I don't always remember her name correctly, for some reason. Is it Pulaski? Pulaksi? Pulsaki? Plakksi? I just use Dr. P for when I struggle to recall her name correctly. That should be fixed for later episodes.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    We had more trackers than episodes at one point, and now they're only slightly behind.
    I have been trying to limit adding more unless it becomes clear something should happen, or something that means I need to add a tracker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manga Shoggoth View Post
    It's almost as if he doesn't like the character. He'll be calling Wesley Crusher by his initials next. (Actually, that would probably be a bigger insult, at least in this country... I'm not sure even Wesley deserves that!)

    Really, the trackers aren't adding anything to the process in the first place, and adding five simply to denegrate Dr Pulaski just looks petty. I don't bother reading them.
    I think that Wesley is a decent character, once you get past the "Creator's Pet" parts. It just happens to really full-heavy in the start of the show. The best episodes for Wesley are: Sins of the Father, The First Duty, The Icarus Factor, Family. I would say that Wesley improved when the writers moved away from the "Creator's Pet" aspect, because Wesley really shines.

    To be honest, I think that Dr. P(ulaski) is the better of the Doctor characters. There are a number of reasons for that, and I included the trackers about Data because it becomes a thing thanks to the Writers.

    Why Doctor Pulaski is better than Dr. Crusher))

    1) No Ties to Picard: Doctor Pulaski has ties to Picard. She is not a friend of a friend to Picard, or someone that has any previous history with him. She has had her own life, completely unaffected by Picard or Picard's actions.

    2) She doesn't Know Data any: This is key because it falls into what her character arc could have been - Not knowing Data meant we could have got exploration of how those who have know little to nothing about Data view him, and Crucial - Are those views changing. That combined with a bit - her years of life/experience - meant she could move into being another mentor for Data like how Picard grows into.

    3) Unlike Crusher, she is not defined by having a kid: One of the main points about Crusher is that she is Wesley's mom. That makes her have less other plots. It is a little tragic that Beverly gets plot events only after Wesley is gone. It would be nicer to have the writers move beyond momBeverly, but it took them a while.

    4) She doesn't immediately accept Data: I think that many members of Starfleet would have problems with Data, and Doctor Pulaski is a good representation of that feeling. It would allow (Had the writers followed it) for showing how Starfleet is getting used to Data.

    Things that went wrong with Doctor Pulaski:

    1) Her Dynamic with Data: I think that the writers made a series of key errors with Doctor Pulaski. The main one was with the character dynamic that they made. I can get behind how Doctor Pulaski has struggles to see Data as sentient and deserving of respect, and her not knowing what to make of him. Because that reflects a very human understanding of how people would feel.

    What happened though is that Data became a break-out start like Spock and so the writers wanted to milk that connection - Data As Spock. So they incorporated a dynamic for a Bones Character. With the other characters are established - Picard as Mentor/Geordi as Friend/Others having Respect - the writers didn't have a character that they could move the Bones element to without it being forced. So they gave it to Doctor Pulaski.

    2) Her first introduction: Doctor Pulaski didn't have a great showing in her first appearance with her actions toward Picard and Data. Both show varying lack of respect, and with Data a break-out character, and Picard the Captain, that part just hurt the character

    3) They (the writers) abandoned a good character development in favor of Bones-Spock dynamic: In the episode "Unnatural Selection", we have Data and Doctor Pulaski working together. It (her facing her death) causes to get thawed out from her original IceQueen part persona and she starts treating better through the Episode, along with the others. The part for the others will remain, but she (thanks to the Writers) takes a step back from the better treatment towards Data, and moves into the Bones-Spock Dynamic with Data.

    That Dynamic was a bad idea, and I think that it should not have been pursued. The writers should have figured out that Data lacked what made Spock work in the Bones-Spock Dynamic, and that it meant that the dynamic wouldn't work. As a result, Doctor Pulaski comes across more, or was made through the Bones-Spock dynamic, as just bullying Data. It didn't help her character any.

    The Writers figured out there were problems with what they did, but by the time that happened, it was too late to salvage anything. Not enough to save the character. So, we lost something that could have been interesting to get Beverly Crusher back.

    Some of Doctor Pulaski's best scenes in the season to come are: Her interactions with Riker's Father, Her actions leading to the Tea Scene with Worf, Her actions in Peak Performance and how she deals with the mess she made there. I think that might be others too, just have to get to them.
    Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
    Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wookiee. 2 E's. [I am obsessed with this]
    My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)

  12. - Top - End - #252
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    That's a really good breakdown! But I think there's a little overload on the trackers, even if we're still relatively early in the show. Most of the Pulaski-Data ones could be combined as "Pulaski mistreat Data" or something similar. Specifically, the first four, though I really like the fifth as it's own thing. That just may be me, though, as I do have a rather noted dislike for Pulaski. And I suspect it's because of the missed opportunities that you put do well.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-09-11 at 05:14 PM.
    Spoiler: Avatar by always-awesome Cuthalion
    Show
    Spoiler: Come down with fire
    Show
    Spoiler: Lift my spirit higher
    Show
    Spoiler: Someone's screaming my name
    Show
    If anyone has a crayon drawing they would like to put on the Kickstarter Reward Collection Thread, PM me.
    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hroĢila View Post
    Peelee's genius status confirmed
    Seconded.

  13. - Top - End - #253
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    By Bellevue, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That's a really good breakdown! But I think there's a little overload on the trackers, even if we're still relatively early in the show. Most of the Pulaski-Data ones could be combined as "Pulaski mistreat Data" or something similar. Specifically, the first four, though I really like the fifth as it's own thing. That just may be me, though, as I do have a rather noted dislike for Pulaski. And I suspect it's because of the missed opportunities that you put do well.
    Well, I can always remove trackers and modify them as suggested by You, the Playgrounders. Not a problem for me.

    Yeah, I would say that nearly all of the Fan Dislike towards Doctor Pulaski really stems from how poorly the Writers managed the characters. Doctor Pulaski was, according to Memory Alpha stuff & TVTropes stuff, was written to be somewhat like Bones. So, a curmedgeonly country Doctor. Which works, I think in my opinion.

    What doesn't work was deciding that since she was written to be like Bones, that putting her in place of Bones in a redux of the Bones-Spock Dynamic was going to work. Data is very not Spock, which in turn shifts the dynamic significantly so. It makes the dynamic more of A Bones interacting with a Mentally Handicapped in Various Ways Spock (Which is what Data is, really) and that dynamic comes more across as petty bullying on Doctor Pulaski's part.

    That ruined the character in many fans' eyes, and when the writers caught on to what happened, they did try to fix it, but at the point, they had already done the damage and it would have required more salvaging then they could get before the end of the season. That I think made it easy for fans to simply not like her more. Adding in her treatment of Data, which was solely the blame of the Writers and Gene (depending on how much he knew about or could have fixed the problems before the problems ran down the road so far)

    I think that knowing about the Behind the Scenes steps helps, because it does explain where some things went very wrong. And especially in areas that could have definitely improved had the writers picked up earlier.

    So, for explaining this, I am going to spoil an episode for later in the season, Peak Performance, which shows how Doctor Pulaski could have worked --

    In Peak Performance, one of the last episodes in the second season, The crew pick up an advisor that comes from a race of Strategetists, the Zakdorn. The one the crew picks up is a famous one, and named K-something. K-Something plays a game called Strategamo/Strategema/Strateg-Something that Doctor Pulaski prods Data into competing with K-Something over. Data does well up to a point, where Data Promptly loses. Data then ends up going through an existential crisis about whether he is obselete and old/worn-out and such. He gets into a real funk and depression.

    Geordi tries to help along with Picard, I think, but in the end, it ends up being Doctor Pulaski who has to go and speak to Data and clean the mess up. That ends Data's existential problem, and he goes and plays K-Something again, and either puts the game into a draw or wins.

    Data learns important things about being human, Doctor Pulaski treats Data as a real "boy", and It all ends well.

    That is probably some of the best character interaction between Doctor Pulaski and Data. It came at the near end of the second season though. Which is a disappointment.
    Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
    Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wookiee. 2 E's. [I am obsessed with this]
    My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)

  14. - Top - End - #254
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Bohandas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2016

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    One could also argue that they actually were writing Data poorly. If they wanted him to be Spock then maybe they shouldn't have written him as the Tin Man

  15. - Top - End - #255
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    England. Ish.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    To be honest, I think that Dr. P(ulaski) is the better of the Doctor characters. There are a number of reasons for that, and I included the trackers about Data because it becomes a thing thanks to the Writers.

    Why Doctor Pulaski is better than Dr. Crusher))

    ...
    An excelent piece of analysis. This is why I am following this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    Geordi tries to help along with Picard, I think, but in the end, it ends up being Doctor Pulaski who has to go and speak to Data and clean the mess up. That ends Data's existential problem, and he goes and plays K-Something again, and either puts the game into a draw or wins.
    I think you are misremembering - it is Picard who ends the problem (by ordering Data back to work, and then explaining that you can do everything right, and still lose - which also gives Data his strategy for the rematch). Still, we'll see when you get to it.

    But yes, Dr Pulaski does treat Data a lot better in this episode.
    Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.

    "The main skill of a good ruler seems to be not preventing the conflagrations but rather keeping them contained enough they rate more as campfires." Rogar Demonblud

    "Hold on just a d*** second. UK has spam callers that try to get you to buy conservatories?!? Even y'alls spammers are higher class than ours!" Peelee

  16. - Top - End - #256
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    By Bellevue, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Manga Shoggoth View Post
    I think you are misremembering - it is Picard who ends the problem (by ordering Data back to work, and then explaining that you can do everything right, and still lose - which also gives Data his strategy for the rematch). Still, we'll see when you get to it.

    But yes, Dr Pulaski does treat Data a lot better in this episode.
    Yes, I remembered that part wrong, but She does make the effort to fix the problem. Whereas before, she would have just ignored what her actions caused and be dismissive. Picard may have ordered Data gotten back to work, but Dr. Pulaski still takes the time to try to explain to Data in ways to help him. It doesn't work out, since Picard has to do it, but the fact that the effort was made shows a significant thing.
    Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
    Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wookiee. 2 E's. [I am obsessed with this]
    My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)

  17. - Top - End - #257
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    By Bellevue, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Season 2 Episode 8
    A Matter of Honor
    Stardate: 42506.5

    [Plot]
    the crew have arrived at starbase 179 to get some new X-Shirts (goldshirts, blueshirts, redshirts, greenshirts, etc) and pick up a benzarite. ( a different character played by the same guy as pled Mordock - due to having the face sculpt from before so it was done to save money)

    Picard discusses with Riker about a special assignment while doing a phaser target game. it's for an officer exchange program and so Riker will be boarding a Klingon ship. that ship is the Pagh

    Riker asks Worf about Klingon traditional ways. So, according to Worf, the first officer is to "assassinate" the captain if the captain becomes weak or unable to perform {Clarified in Deep Space 9 to be "cowardce, dereliction of duty, some other things that I can't remember). Riker has a going away meal filled with Klingon food

    which ends up weirding out Picard and Dr. Pulaski ; also Riker picked the more palatable of Klingon dishes

    our benzarite, mendon, discovers some stuff on the hull of the Klingon ship, but doesn't report anything yet. Worf gives Riker an emergency transponder.

    Riker goes on the Klingon ship. He speaks with the captain Kargan. Klag, another Klingon doesn't believe something that Riker says, so Riker goes into fisticuffs. Having thrashed Klag, Riker gets Klag to recognize his authority.

    Later Riker is in the mess hall and learns that Gagh is live. Eaten Live. He gets teased about being squirmish about this fact. Then He gets to hit on by one of the Klingon women, with one of them stating that She will back for him. Riker asks if that was serious and is told, yes. He takes a drink.

    Riker talks with Klag about differences and sameness between humans and Klingons. We learn that Klag's father was taken captive and returned and just waits to die. Riker thinks Klag should pay a visit (Worth noting here that Riker is estranged from his own father, a moment/thing brought up in a later episode)

    Riker is brought to Captain Kargan to explain about the scanning that the Enterprise did. Naturally, he doesn't know and Kargan takes what happened as an attack. Kargan decides to take some kind of action.

    Of course, Mendon is still busy with things, and there is the issue of the space bacteria, and it coming to the attention of the crew and that Mendon didn't do proper procedure etc. Wesley tells him not to worry any about that. (It is a little bit of a thing)

    While Riker is absent, Kargan and Klag discuss matters, and Kargan naturally jumps to conclusions. With the Enterprise going off to help the Klingon Ship with the bacteria, Kargan decides it all means an attack. Klag earlier didn't think it was realistic that it is an attack (the bacteria part) Riker questions that also.

    Kargan demands to know ways of damaging or fighting the ship better. Riker refuses. Kargan says some spiel about not trusting Riker if he told him. (I think that it feels off, like Kargan is suddenly back-pedaling here, having to come up with a quick declaration when He didn't get the information he wanted)

    A solution for the Space Bacteria is found. Naturally it gets added to the message the Enterprise is sending out. Kargan continues to decide that the whole thing is an attack. So, then with the Enterprise not knowing what is going on with the Pagh, it goes to red alert.

    Kargan ends up deciding, despite Riker giving him a reason that makes sense, to prepare to attack the Enterprise. Given the somewhat delusional and a bit stupid of How Kargan is being, Riker arranges for Kargan to get beamed off when the Klingon Ship decloaks. And take command of the ship. That happens with the emergency transponder.

    Kargan ends up on the Bridge and decides to attack. Worf shoots him. Riker then drops the cloak and gets all armed for fighting. He tells the other Klingon besides Klag that he will fight alongside the Klingons. He also demands that the Enterprise surrender. Which Picard is more than willing to do.

    The Space Bacteria problem is fixed, and Riker arranges for giving Kargan a nice little Face-Saving display. Klag says that he thinks Riker understands the Klingons better. Kargan, having been made a total fool/tool, kicks Riker off his ship.

    Riker returns to the Enterprise afterwards, speaking to Worf about his people some. Then the Enterprise heads off to its next destination.

    [Rating]
    5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on

    {Episode Commentary}
    i have always loved the Klingons and this is our first Klingon episode to explore and show what they are like. it is pretty good in my opinion, the plot of riker going on board. the rest is mostly for explaining the problem and what is going on with it. that works fine.

    all in all this is a good episode if you like what is going on with the Klingons. if you don't like those changes then you are going to not like this episode any.

    So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

    Trackers)
    Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
    Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
    Hidden Gems: 3
    Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
    Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
    Prime Directives: 2
    Patrick Stewart Speech: 3 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
    Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
    Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
    Pithy Aesops: 1
    Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory";
    Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
    Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
    Actually Alien Aliens: 1
    Lore's Appearances: 1
    *Data's Emotions: 2
    *Troi Troubles: 1
    *Money Matters: 1
    Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
    1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
    2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:
    Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
    Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wookiee. 2 E's. [I am obsessed with this]
    My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)

  18. - Top - End - #258
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    DigoDragon's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Long time lurker, first time poster in this thread. ^^
    I liked this episode a lot; it really shows off Riker's cunning and ability to take charge (or seize it as it were) when needed.

    Klingon cuisine reminds me of this documentary I watched some years back how early interplanetary travel for us would benefit with having insect farms on ships as a steady food source. XD
    Digo Dragon - Artist
    D&D 5e Homebrew: My Little Pony Races
    Avatar by me - Sparks, kobold wizard

  19. - Top - End - #259
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    I remember really liking Riker's tense scenes aboard the Klingon ship. There were some really good bits where the storytelling makes it clear that Klingon culture is extremely different, without making them seem like everyday wacky aliens. The interactions showed a good bit of depth, and Riker really had to maneuver carefully at times if I recall.

    This episode is fun to think about, given the ensuing Klingon subplots that ran throughout TNG and how it set us up to understand a lot of them.

    I feel like I wasn't as keen on the central conflict of the episode -- something about the justifications didn't add completely up and pieces of the plot felt a little like "we need to do X now so the characters are just going to roll with it until that happens," but all in all the atmosphere of the Klingon ship (both in set decoration and in acting from the Klingon cast) more than made up for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    I think that Wesley is a decent character, once you get past the "Creator's Pet" parts. It just happens to really full-heavy in the start of the show. The best episodes for Wesley are: Sins of the Father, The First Duty, The Icarus Factor, Family. I would say that Wesley improved when the writers moved away from the "Creator's Pet" aspect, because Wesley really shines.
    I know Wesley was also included as a kid appeal character, but it's hard to make a child interesting or relevant on a starship without making them super smart or competent. So Wesley kind of wound up as undeservedly smart and Marty Stu-esque, just by virtue of needing to punch above his weight class so he could be in conversations with Senior Bridge Staff. Doesn't make it a good decision, but I can see the logic there.

    Interestingly, Louise Erdrich's The Round House centers around an Ojibwe teenager growing up during TNG's run, and the narrator mentions how he and his friends knew that Wesley was supposed to be the character they identified with, but how they all latched on to Worf instead. Not really super relevant, just a fun detail in a book that's arguing something I also agree with: you don't need to put a kid in a show to get kids to watch it. Kids will see themselves in anyone as long as their personalities or ideals align.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-09-16 at 12:56 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #260
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    My favorite part of this episode was the food. Riker goes out of his way to prepare, only to get caught out by a minor detail that the computer forgot to mention. So we get a chance to see Riker have to pick up from aa stumble. which he does fairly well.

  21. - Top - End - #261
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    I agree this was a good episode (although I didn't particularly care for the Benzite). I also like your more detailed episode summary.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Work is the scourge of the gaming classes!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Neither Evershifting List of Perfectly Prepared Spells nor Grounds to Howl at the DM If I Ever Lose is actually a wizard class feature.

  22. - Top - End - #262
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    England. Ish.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    My favorite part of this episode was the food. Riker goes out of his way to prepare, only to get caught out by a minor detail that the computer forgot to mention. So we get a chance to see Riker have to pick up from aa stumble. which he does fairly well.
    Likewise - in fact Riker is admirable in this episode alltogether. In fact Mendon and Riker give an interesting set of opposed views on working within a foreign environment and/or culture - one working exactly as they would before, and the other adapting to match the environment he is in.
    Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.

    "The main skill of a good ruler seems to be not preventing the conflagrations but rather keeping them contained enough they rate more as campfires." Rogar Demonblud

    "Hold on just a d*** second. UK has spam callers that try to get you to buy conservatories?!? Even y'alls spammers are higher class than ours!" Peelee

  23. - Top - End - #263
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    By Bellevue, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Season 2 Episode 9
    The Measure Of A Man
    Stardate: 42523.7

    [Plot]
    So, the crew arrive at starbase 173 for stuff. Some of the crew join in to do some poker playing. Riker is able to Bluff Data into folding. Data is curious.

    On the starbase, Picard meets an old flame, Phillippa Louvis. She was the prosecution agaisnt Picard when he lost the stargazer and carried out the court martial trial. Picard didn't lose his captaincy, but the action soured relations between them and so there is a stiffness in their interactions.

    The Admiral of the starbase shows up and visits the Enterprise. He brings along one Commander Bruce Maddox, who works in Robotics/Cybernetics. Maddox is going to dissemble Data.

    Upon learning further about Maddox and the procedures, it is made clear that Maddox is not fully capable, and there is a chance that the procedure will result in Data's death. Data doesn't want that, so refuses to go along. Data resigns his commission. Data packs his belongings and has a farewell party in Ten Forward.

    Maddox challenges and it turns out that Starfleet considers Data property. Maddox also opposed Data joining Starfleet. Picard insists that matters be stopped, but Captain Louvis is having none of it. Picard must defend Data, with Riker in opposition.

    Riker studies about Data for the hearing. It will be held later.

    The hearing is held, and Riker makes a very impressive and very convincing case against Data. Picard is left shaken. He asks for a recess. He talks with Guinan in ten forward some.

    Picard makes a new argument and reveals some things about Data. Picard then challenges Maddox about a number of things, especially on how Maddox defines Sentience. Maddox is made to be embarrassed. Using his talk with Guinan, Picard brings up how Maddox will be creating a race of Datas, that will be essentially property or slaves. Picard then challenges how that will make the Federation. And mentions that Data is "new life".

    Captain Louvis ends up ruling that Data has rights. Data refuses to undergo the procedure but encourages Maddox. Maddox, who was calling Data "it", refers to Data as "He".

    The crew have a celebration, but Riker decides to stay away. Data comes to bring him and explains that He is grateful for that Riker did what he did since without it Louvis would have just ruled against him. Riker is impressed. They go to the celebration.

    [Rating]
    5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on
    &
    1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore) - For Reasons

    {Episode Commentary}
    So, this is both an amazing episode and really great and one of the very best episodes. In many ways however, it happens to be one of the worst episodes too. There are a few reasons why.

    1) This episode covers something that should have been done long before this. I can't believe that since Data's discovery that an attempt by Starfleet to have someone like Maddox do what he wanted has not come up yet before. It just feels like it should have come up way earlier and examined and determined. For it to have lasted this long before anyone considered doing the procedure that Maddox was thinking just boggles my mind.

    When Data applied to join Starfleet, shouldn't questions of his sentience have been determined? Questions about his rights and what, if any, rights he had? Why did Starfleet not apply those details in any way? Why was that never specified or viewed or made? Clearly there was support for Data to Join Starfleet, and Data had a career and was awarded some medals. Are we really supposed to believe that it is just didn't come up before?

    2) Lore -- During this episode when Maddox was talking about what could happen with Data, I kept thinking about how there was another android that could have been used. Lore, Data's brother. Nobody even mentions the idea of employing Lore in this way. Lore gets completely forgotten about. I know that using Lore would probably or possibility ending up not turning out well, but no suggestion is made.

    3) From what is made in the story, apparently no one has any information or details to follow up on. Apparently, nothing of Dr. Soong's notes survived. There appears to be almost no information of how Dr. Soong built Lore or Data, or anything to help others. Maddox is supposed to be the closest in general (passing even the guy from the past episode that taught Dr. Soong everything) and Maddox is far from making a working positronic brain. Yet, Starfleet is willing to allow Maddox is dissemble Data despite evidence that he just doesn't know if it will work. Was the entire archives of Dr. Soong's work that the Doctor had to have in his lab just lost?

    So the above are things that make think this is a terrible episode. Mainly it is how the matter here has simply never come up yet, somehow. I personally feel that it should have come up.

    So, the things that make it great:

    1) Character -- Picard & Data & Riker all get great characterizition and moments. Watching Riker smile when he thinks has some things to use against Data and then him realizing/remembering that he is prosecuting Data is a great scene. The entire interplay with Picard and Captain Louvis was really great. Then Data has some really strong moments. And Pulaski is really friendly and great in this episode too.

    2) Data's Possessions -- One thing that is great here, is seeing what things that Data values most. His collection of Medals, a book from Picard, his object for memorializing Tasha. All those really show a strong heart to Data, and is just really great.

    3) Picard's speech -- The entire speech about the Race of Datas and what it would mean, really sells, really well. It is probably Picard's greatest Speech in the series, or at least that I see so far.

    Also, since it is a thing later, I have to add a tracker for the cast playing poker, which they will do, a lot.

    So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

    Trackers)
    Poker Playing: 1
    Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
    Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
    Hidden Gems: 3
    Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
    Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
    Prime Directives: 2
    Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
    Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
    Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
    Pithy Aesops: 1
    Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory";
    Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
    Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
    Actually Alien Aliens: 1
    Lore's Appearances: 1
    *Data's Emotions: 3
    *Troi Troubles: 1
    *Money Matters: 1
    Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
    1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
    2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:
    Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
    Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wookiee. 2 E's. [I am obsessed with this]
    My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)

  24. - Top - End - #264
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post

    2) Lore -- During this episode when Maddox was talking about what could happen with Data, I kept thinking about how there was another android that could have been used. Lore, Data's brother. Nobody even mentions the idea of employing Lore in this way. Lore gets completely forgotten about. I know that using Lore would probably or possibility ending up not turning out well, but no suggestion is made.
    Lore was unavailable for any of this sort of thing, because Data Wesley beamed him into space near the Crystalline Entity, and he was not seen again for a long time.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-09-18 at 02:17 AM.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  25. - Top - End - #265
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2009

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Lore was unavailable for any of this sort of thing, because Data beamed him into space near the Crystalline Entity, and he was not seen again for a long time.
    Which, realistically, would place Lore drifting in a very small area of space that any Federation ship could scan in seconds. But, unrealistically, space is an ocean in Star Trek and we are to take this as if Lore was lost at the bottom of the Pacific.

  26. - Top - End - #266
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    I thought the Crystalline Entity had taken Lore with it for a while, and then dumped him somewhere (with some Pakleds picking him up later). (Also, it turns out Wesley did the actual beaming itself, so I've fixed that).
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-09-18 at 02:17 AM.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  27. - Top - End - #267
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lord Vukodlak's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    Season 2 Episode 9
    The Measure Of A Man
    When Data applied to join Starfleet, shouldn't questions of his sentience have been determined? Questions about his rights and what, if any, rights he had? Why did Starfleet not apply those details in any way? Why was that never specified or viewed or made? Clearly there was support for Data to Join Starfleet, and Data had a career and was awarded some medals. Are we really supposed to believe that it is just didn't come up before?
    We give medals and ranks to Dogs that serve the military. So giving them to a really sophisticated machine isn't out of the question.
    And in the episode its stated that Maddox actually opposed Data's petition to join star-fleet. He'd argue that because Data was found by Starfleet and his creator is presumed dead he's the property of starfleet. His argument is that Data isn't truly alive and thus not deserving of rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    Season 2 Episode 9
    The Measure Of A Man
    2) Lore -- During this episode when Maddox was talking about what could happen with Data, I kept thinking about how there was another android that could have been used. Lore, Data's brother. Nobody even mentions the idea of employing Lore in this way. Lore gets completely forgotten about. I know that using Lore would probably or possibility ending up not turning out well, but no suggestion is made.
    Well aside from the fact that Lore is lost in space. Lore is exceedingly dangerous and not mentally stable. So replicating him might not be the best move, 'hey lets copy the brain of the homicidal android'
    Using Lore means you either treat him as property(in which case Data is also property). Or you condone performing the equivalent of medical experiments on prisoners.

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    Season 2 Episode 9
    The Measure Of A Man
    3) From what is made in the story, apparently no one has any information or details to follow up on. Apparently, nothing of Dr. Soong's notes survived.
    He was a recluse and very protective of his work he'd have deliberately left nothing behind but Data for people to follow up on. And he only left Data behind because there wasn't room on the escape pod.
    Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.

  28. - Top - End - #268
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    By Bellevue, WA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    Well aside from the fact that Lore is lost in space. Lore is exceedingly dangerous and not mentally stable. So replicating him might not be the best move, 'hey lets copy the brain of the homicidal android'
    Using Lore means you either treat him as property(in which case Data is also property). Or you condone performing the equivalent of medical experiments on prisoners.
    well i did say that it could or would end badly. but it has the kind of feel of sheer crazy that starfleet seems to get up to.

    frankly i was expecting for Lore to come up over the dangers of making androids like Data. what if Maddox were to end up accidentally make them like Lore? that doesn't sound good and I think that it is a strong argument for defending Data in my opinion.

    Lore was crazy and had his traits, but Lore was a prototype before Data, possibly suggesting something that Maddox could create without meaning too. plus I think it would have affected how the arguments went and it challenged that Data was truly unique.

    the reference for Lore comes from some of the tvtropes stuff for the episode along with whether it would have been easy or not for Maddox to arrange for a ship to try to find Lore. after all, Lore was left floating in space. given how maddox views data as a machine that maddox could make a faulty judgment call and go after Lore; maybe interact with Lore

    plus the suggestion could have explored how data would feel about Lore, in general.

    but meh; more about Lore being not brought up as it could have explored over how desperate if any would maddox be, would he risk using Lore, would data have feelings or opinions about the idea, how would it affect how data would be viewed knowing about Lore. Would Picard be as willing to defend Lore as he is for data?

    Seems like the writers just forgot about Lore. Which is a little bit not great.

    Still the parts of question exist but that doesn't mean the episode is still really great. Definitely one of the best episodes of the season
    Last edited by russdm; 2021-09-18 at 04:02 AM.
    Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
    Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wookiee. 2 E's. [I am obsessed with this]
    My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)

  29. - Top - End - #269
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    DigoDragon's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Measure of a Man is probably one of those pretty good episodes I always forget. The characters carry it, because I agree that such a trial should have been conducted long ago when Data first signed up to Starfleet. But other than that, I don't have much quibble.

    Was this the first mention of the Stargazer?
    Digo Dragon - Artist
    D&D 5e Homebrew: My Little Pony Races
    Avatar by me - Sparks, kobold wizard

  30. - Top - End - #270
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Bohandas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2016

    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    Which, realistically, would place Lore drifting in a very small area of space that any Federation ship could scan in seconds. But, unrealistically, space is an ocean in Star Trek and we are to take this as if Lore was lost at the bottom of the Pacific.
    you've got your realistic and unrealistic swapped there

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •