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  1. - Top - End - #271
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    Was this the first mention of the Stargazer?
    No, the Stargazer shows up in the episode of the first season, "the battle ", and it gets mentioned a number of times. It is Picard's first command and only other command than the Enterprise from what the canon says, and according to Q in "Tapestry ", another great episode, that Picard took command after a couple of the senior officers to him where put out of action.

    As for your post that I didn't quote here, it is just jarring that after Data's 27 years of Starfleet service that it is coming up. There was only the time when Data applied to Starfleet and maddox voted against Data, which would make Maddox have to be way older than he is, but it didn't come up during Data's service of someone who wanted to dissemble him.

    So it (the above concerns) just wreck the episode in a way because I couldn't stop wondering how it had taken so long to come up. But if you can shut that complaint off for the episode, the episode is extremely good.

    I was almost going to consider this episode one of the hidden gems, the very best episodes in a season and the series but the episode loses on the issue not coming up before when it should have and that the episode completely ignores Lore exists and doesn't bring Lore up in ways that I was expecting the episode to, because this is such a major and risky procedure that could result in Data's death.
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  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    As for your post that I didn't quote here, it is just jarring that after Data's 27 years of Starfleet service that it is coming up. There was only the time when Data applied to Starfleet and maddox voted against Data, which would make Maddox have to be way older than he is, but it didn't come up during Data's service of someone who wanted to dissemble him.
    Which brings up the real mind twister: By the time we meet Data for the first time, he has been active in Starfleet for decades, yet he acts as if this is his first contact with human society. Did topics like "what is a joke?" or "what is friendship?" just never come up in Starfleet Academy or on the other ships he has been on? Did nobody ever use any figures of speech on his previous assignments? He must have been functional enough during that time to graduate and to make it to Lieutenant Commander, albeit slowly.

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    Which brings up the real mind twister: By the time we meet Data for the first time, he has been active in Starfleet for decades, yet he acts as if this is his first contact with human society. Did topics like "what is a joke?" or "what is friendship?" just never come up in Starfleet Academy or on the other ships he has been on? Did nobody ever use any figures of speech on his previous assignments? He must have been functional enough during that time to graduate and to make it to Lieutenant Commander, albeit slowly.
    Maybe he home-schooled his Academy training, got a tired instructor for his shuttle flight tests that just didn't talk other than professionally, and then sat at home again taking courses for promotion points until someone noticed the one-off genius android and said;

    "Let's assign him to that weekly disaster magnet of weirdos the Enterprise where they're used to the unique, to get rid of him normalize the Academy grading curve."

    Although it makes the medals weird in a military sense, the mixed scholastic/civic/mil workings of Starfleet may have a way to get medals without deployment. (And long service medals, though that's hardly fair to give to a functionally unaging robot.)

    Is that a hilarious overstretch? Absolutely. But hey, plot holes get filling.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    well i did say that it could or would end badly. but it has the kind of feel of sheer crazy that starfleet seems to get up to.

    frankly i was expecting for Lore to come up over the dangers of making androids like Data. what if Maddox were to end up accidentally make them like Lore? that doesn't sound good and I think that it is a strong argument for defending Data in my opinion.

    Lore was crazy and had his traits, but Lore was a prototype before Data, possibly suggesting something that Maddox could create without meaning too. plus I think it would have affected how the arguments went and it challenged that Data was truly unique.

    Picard went for the ethical argument - it does not matter how great the potential gain is, Data has the right not to consent to the procedure. He also raises the spectre of what that gain means - a race of slaves. Trying to argue utilitarianism weakens that, not makes it stronger. Mixing ethical arguments with utilitarian ones can severely backfire. "You can't do this because Data is a person who has rights" is a fundamentally orthagonal argument from "You shouldn't do this because 50% of the androids Soong made were evil psychopaths". Winning on the Lore argument could very easily result in a "Data is the property of Starfleet and has no rights, but we also are shutting down the duplication project and ordering Data destroyed as a potential threat" ruling.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    No, the Stargazer shows up in the episode of the first season, "the battle ", and it gets mentioned a number of times.
    Okay, thanks! I couldn't remember when it first comes up.

    Having several friends in the Navy, my first time watching Next Gen I was rather impressed that Picard could lose a ship and end up commanding the flagship afterwards. Few captains still have a career if they lose a ship.

    But given how deadly space is, perhaps there is a shortage of senior officers to command ships, so Starfleet gets lenient on things?


    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    Did topics like "what is a joke?" or "what is friendship?" just never come up in Starfleet Academy
    I'm picturing the "Forky Asks A Question" series, but with Data.

    I think the writers didn't consider Data's background very deeply when they came up with 27 years. Unless their excuse is that they counted years he was being studied after he was found. I dunno.


    Quote Originally Posted by Misery Esquire View Post
    "Let's assign him to that weekly disaster magnet of weirdos the Enterprise where they're used to the unique, to get rid of him normalize the Academy grading curve.".
    After watching several episodes of "Lower Decks", I could totally see this line said by someone.
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  6. - Top - End - #276
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    Having several friends in the Navy, my first time watching Next Gen I was rather impressed that Picard could lose a ship and end up commanding the flagship afterwards. Few captains still have a career if they lose a ship.

    But given how deadly space is, perhaps there is a shortage of senior officers to command ships, so Starfleet gets lenient on things?
    I think it was in this very episode, it came up that Starfleet did give Picard a hard time because of the incident but in the end he was cleared of all charges in a trial involving the same admiral who presides the trial against Data. I guess in Federation society an acquittal really is an acquittal, leaving no negative repercussions. It might even have shed a positive light on Picard because he managed to save a lot of people in a desperate crisis by using innovative tactics.

    (Remember that at that point in the series the Ferengi are still supposed to be a very serious threat and Picard taking out the enemy and getting away with his crew, albeit at the loss of the ship, may be seen as the best possible outcome)
    Last edited by Seppl; 2021-09-20 at 09:22 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #277
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Modern navies are operating in peacetime, for the most part, and naval combat is very rare even in wartime. This means that it is very rare to lose a ship except through incompetence. Starfleet is not operating in that situation. Even when the Federation is not at war, Starfleet vessels are operating at or beyond the settled and peaceful regions. Running into unknown hostile vessels, known hostile vessels, unknown environmental threats, and the like is part of the job. A Starfleet officer can lose a ship through incompetence, but could also do so through no fault.


    If you compare to wartime navies, or the Age Of Sail era that Star Trek is deliberately echoing, losing a ship was not a death sentence for your career. It was custom in some places and time to court-martial any officer that lost a ship (as is suggested to be the case with Starfleet - they're drawing from life here), but that was as much a formal inquiry as anything else. If the Court found you blameless, you suffered no great penalty and could get another ship if one could be found for you. If, as with Picard, your performance was judged admirable, you could be court-martialed, decorated, and promoted. Just like Picard here.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post


    If you compare to wartime navies, or the Age Of Sail era that Star Trek is deliberately echoing, losing a ship was not a death sentence for your career. It was custom in some places and time to court-martial any officer that lost a ship (as is suggested to be the case with Starfleet - they're drawing from life here), but that was as much a formal inquiry as anything else. If the Court found you blameless, you suffered no great penalty and could get another ship if one could be found for you. If, as with Picard, your performance was judged admirable, you could be court-martialed, decorated, and promoted. Just like Picard here.
    William Bligh is a classic example of this - court-martialled, but found to be Not At Fault regarding the mutiny on the Bounty, and it didn't appear to be a setback to his career.
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  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    Season 2 Episode 9
    The Measure Of A Man
    Stardate: 42523.7

    [Rating]
    5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on
    &
    1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore) - For Reasons
    I remember this episode quite distinctly -- I remember being frustrated with it almost the entire way through. Even though TNG was a tiny bit anti-bureaucracy or would feature unreasonable characters in power, they never went full-on in portraying Starfleet as broadly incompetent, capricious, or unfair. So it was hard to entertain the premise that Data's personhood was in any danger, for even a moment of runtime, and as a result I mostly just wanted them to get on with the story without all of the legal posturing.

    I do agree there were some great speeches, and it was a very interesting opportunity to show Data's character through things like his possessions, like you mentioned.

    Just for fun (not really a judgment on the episode's quality one way or the other), there's a very entertaining video from Legal Eagle on YouTube about this episode, analyzing whether the actual court scenes were accurate (spoiler: not very).

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Lore was unavailable for any of this sort of thing,
    My brain misfired here and I thought you were saying Lore's actor was unavailable...it took me a moment of confusion to actually parse your statement correctly!

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Just for fun (not really a judgment on the episode's quality one way or the other), there's a very entertaining video from Legal Eagle on YouTube about this episode, analyzing whether the actual court scenes were accurate (spoiler: not very).
    Not important really, because Star trek never gets courtroom scenes right. Not in TOS, or TNG, or DS9, or Voy, or ENT. Just like how it is in Most or nearly all Scifi. From what I remember.

    What is most funny is that one of the writer people was an actual lawyer, which makes the scenes here being wrong pretty funny.
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  11. - Top - End - #281
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    While the real reason is of course Hollywood dramaturgy, at least in this case you can say that it is hundreds of years into the future, following drastic socioeconomic changes. A lawyer of today would probably also find real court proceedings from absolutist France very strange and irregular, when judged by current US American standards.
    Last edited by Seppl; 2021-09-21 at 02:59 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    For the most part I think this is a really good episode, though I agree it's a strange omission that Lore is not mentioned once, even tangentially, and instead is treated as though he doesn't exist.

    However, the one thing that's always bugged me about this episode, even as a kid when I looked at this show through almost entirely uncritical eyes, is how absolutely contrived the circumstances are in order to force Riker to argue the other side.
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  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    While the real reason is of course Hollywood dramaturgy, at least in this case you can say that it is hundreds of years into the future, following drastic socioeconomic changes. A lawyer of today would probably also find real court proceedings from absolutist France very strange and irregular, when judged by current US American standards.
    That was my thought exactly
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  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    While the real reason is of course Hollywood dramaturgy, at least in this case you can say that it is hundreds of years into the future, following drastic socioeconomic changes. A lawyer of today would probably also find real court proceedings from absolutist France very strange and irregular, when judged by current US American standards.
    Strange how hundreds of years of technological improvements and socioeconomic/cultural evolution produces a legal code that perfectly mimics a late-20th-century layperson's vague misinterpretation of late-20th-century law

    Granted, I don't know much about military hierarchy, but Star Trek: TNG always seemed to have a more or less solid grasp of the mechanics of rank/duties/proper procedure/insubordination while still keeping it dramatic within the bounds of that framework. I'm not faulting them for getting little legal details wrong: I'm more upset that they made huge logical leaps & assumptions about law for the sake of drama, because the show usually felt like it put a lot of importance on proper procedure in other areas (i.e. matters of rank and obedience).

    Essentially, this episode seemed to break the show's own rules, just to make it more dramatic. As a result, I questioned the logic too much and wasn't able to enjoy the episode, because they weren't even bothering to hide how contrived the circumstances were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velaryon View Post
    However, the one thing that's always bugged me about this episode, even as a kid when I looked at this show through almost entirely uncritical eyes, is how absolutely contrived the circumstances are in order to force Riker to argue the other side.
    Agreed. This is one of the most egregious parts for me. The drama of it was interesting but it was flat-out impossible to believe that they couldn't just pick someone else who wasn't 1) Data's immediate superior and 2) Data's close friend.

  15. - Top - End - #285
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Strange how hundreds of years of technological improvements and socioeconomic/cultural evolution produces a legal code that perfectly mimics a late-20th-century layperson's vague misinterpretation of late-20th-century law
    I presume one of the steps in the wars of the 21st century was that somebody "killed all the lawyers", and burnt the lawbooks, leaving legal procedure to be reconstructed from popular fiction.

  16. - Top - End - #286
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Season 2 Episode 10
    the Dauphin
    Stardate: 42568.8

    [Plot]
    the crew got sent to pick up the future leader of a planet that is war torn and said future leader's qualifications is being the kid of the opposing sides. {this is about the same mentality that being a highly skilled cake decorator makes you qualified for running the government}

    the future leader and guardian, being salia and anya. they come on board and wesley just has to fall in love with salia. we learn about romance from Worf and Riker and Geordi and Guinan. Worf brings up Klingon stuff.

    Picard has been using the viewscreen on the bridge to talk with the guests from time to time. why Picard couldn't just use the device in his ready room on the bridge is never answered. also, salia and anya are shape shifters and sometimes look like ewoks and wookies. and yeah wes is totally hitting on salia too

    we have an event in sickbay and anya goes all wookie and blah blah blah. things happen, peoples get escorted back to quarters

    salia and anya have a fight in wes's quarters and sometime before wes and salia visited the holodeck

    there is event and so after time spent behind a forcefield, the crew deliver the future leader to destination. and we have the result of wes having a broken heart

    [Rating]
    2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects

    {Episode Commentary}
    so this is a pretty lousy episode. it is solely about Wesley falling in love. and then the future leader salia falling in love too. pretty much the entire episode is filler.

    important things to explain or consider like everything about the war torn planet and what will happen about it are completely unnecessary apparently. this lack of detail pretty much makes the plight that salia is in non existent. like what or why can't salia just ignore her responsibilities? because of dumb plot reasons.

    I don't think that anything about how or what is going on with that planet seems to matter. the enterprise spends time traveling in a way that looks like everything is just a leisurely stroll. so, the importance of salia taking on the leader role comes across as drama for the sake of drama

    this episode goes out of its way to just be about wes falling in love and that he can't be with that person.

    frankly to me, this is a really dumb episode. i feel like the whole thing could have been done better and that the episode comes across as worse than "meh"

    So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    This is one of those episodes that could be forgotten with no real loss to the series. ^^
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  18. - Top - End - #288
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSh View Post
    I presume one of the steps in the wars of the 21st century was that somebody "killed all the lawyers", and burnt the lawbooks, leaving legal procedure to be reconstructed from popular fiction.
    A surprisingly convincing theory!

    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    This is one of those episodes that could be forgotten with no real loss to the series. ^^
    I can personally attest that I'd completely forgotten this one and, having been reminded of it, feel no great loss.

    EDIT: Out of curiosity, I googled some screenshots of the episode to see if it jogged any memories, and came up with the following thoughts:
    1. I watched the entire show straight through on Netflix so there's no way I could've missed one, but I might as well have. Nothing about this is familiar to me.
    2. The actor who played Wes's love interest bears a very strong resemblance to an 80s Millie Bobby Brown.
    3. In checking whether or not that actor was in fact Millie Bobby Brown's mother (she wasn't), I found out that the actor has since stopped acting and become a licensed psychotherapist. Perhaps to undo the damage she did by aiding and abetting an early-series Wesley episode, about romance no less.
    4. Good lord, they really tried to push Wesley in the early seasons. People reference "Growing The Beard" as the show's maturity point, but I would almost suggest "Starfleet Academy-ing The Wesley" as the real turning point. So much wasted time on such bland stuff.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-09-23 at 10:16 AM.

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Actually I think that Wesley falling in love would have worked in an episode. The problem is that it is not a plot that fills the entire episode and work. This episode really needed a a second plot to feed off such with a pull away from the romance. That was not done. So we got this garbage.

    The entire plot about the war torn planet feels like it was takked on for giving a way for a person for wes to get involved with. Then they (writers) takked on the shape shifters part when there was no reason beyond making the show have its science fiction. It was completely pointless to have.

    So one of anya's forms is an ewok. We see it in a scene. But then we didn't need the shape shifter part of the episode because it doesn't add anything other than to create drama. But nothing else in the episode is dramatic anyway so it's not really that impressive.

    The whole episode feels like a bunch of stuff was thrown at a wall and based on stayed on the wall, like food, became parts of the episode. They have come up with Wesley just meeting with another member of the ship's crew because there are families on board ship, aren't there? Wesley could have easily just started going out with some other teenage girl on the ship and also if they wanted to, another teenage boy instead of girl. That would have worked way better and if things did not turn out well or great, how does the two handle being on board the same starship.

    But nope, we get a war torn planet that no one cares about and some shape shifters that are only there to create drama.
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  20. - Top - End - #290
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    The whole episode feels like a bunch of stuff was thrown at a wall and based on stayed on the wall, like food, became parts of the episode. They have come up with Wesley just meeting with another member of the ship's crew because there are families on board ship, aren't there? Wesley could have easily just started going out with some other teenage girl on the ship and also if they wanted to, another teenage boy instead of girl. That would have worked way better and if things did not turn out well or great, how does the two handle being on board the same starship.

    But nope, we get a war torn planet that no one cares about and some shape shifters that are only there to create drama.
    They're trying to have more independent episodes at this point. There are exceptions (Q, Vash, ...), but generally they don't want a romance starting in one ep to have consequences in later eps. Just like with Kirk.

  21. - Top - End - #291
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSh View Post
    They're trying to have more independent episodes at this point. There are exceptions (Q, Vash, ...), but generally they don't want a romance starting in one ep to have consequences in later eps. Just like with Kirk.
    Especially for two child actors. I imagine if they were able to, they'd try to avoid the logistics of keeping both actors available for shoots and not aging out of the roles. And that's without rolling the puberty dice -- there are some rough moment's where Wesley's makeup is thick enough to frost a cake, thanks to Wil Wheaton going through isotretinoin-grade acne. Been there myself, and would have no desire to be on camera in any way, shape, or form.

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    Okay, thanks! I couldn't remember when it first comes up.

    Having several friends in the Navy, my first time watching Next Gen I was rather impressed that Picard could lose a ship and end up commanding the flagship afterwards. Few captains still have a career if they lose a ship.

    But given how deadly space is, perhaps there is a shortage of senior officers to command ships, so Starfleet gets lenient on things?
    As someone who has several family members who are/were in the navy, it's been an ongoing problem for a while that they are considered "top heavy" (too many high-ranking officers). One of the ways to avoid that is encouraging officers who aren't going up to resign/retire. So you can end up with a black mark on your record pretty easily that stops advancement. Gnoman is right that in older times losing a ship wasn't an issue unless there was obvious error on the captain's part.

    But even by the end of WW2 a captain could have his career ruined for something that wasn't their fault, especially if it attracted a lot of attention. Without going into much detail the Captain of the Indianapolis is a prime example. Even with the help of Nimitz remitting his sentence, he was the public face of failure, which led to his suicide. Took 56 years for him to be formally cleared of error.

    Unfortunately one of my cousins committed suicide in 2017 because he was caught up in one of the recent purchasing scandals. Unclear how much (if anything) he knew, but it apparently completely derailed his career, including any chance at a decent job if/when he would have left service.
    "That's a horrible idea! What time?"

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  23. - Top - End - #293
    Titan in the Playground
     
    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Unpopular Opinion:

    I think it's nice to have a few "Wesley is growing up" episodes here and there. It's necessary to show a young character going through these kinds of life lessons as slowly become more of an adult. Especially without Doctor Crusher around during this season, Wesley is forced to get advice from all the rest of the crew instead, which makes it more interesting.

    Honestly, I think they did a fairly good job showing Wesley's growth from an over-achieving child into a teen who's showing the stress of trying to keep up with everyone's expectations in just a few seasons. His rant about his mother being absent at the beginning of next season might seem a bit unreasonable, but at the same time it feels really believable and relatable to me.

    Wesley reminds me a lot of my sister, actually.
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  24. - Top - End - #294
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Unpopular Opinion:

    I think it's nice to have a few "Wesley is growing up" episodes here and there. It's necessary to show a young character going through these kinds of life lessons as slowly become more of an adult. Especially without Doctor Crusher around during this season, Wesley is forced to get advice from all the rest of the crew instead, which makes it more interesting.

    Honestly, I think they did a fairly good job showing Wesley's growth from an over-achieving child into a teen who's showing the stress of trying to keep up with everyone's expectations in just a few seasons. His rant about his mother being absent at the beginning of next season might seem a bit unreasonable, but at the same time it feels really believable and relatable to me.

    Wesley reminds me a lot of my sister, actually.
    I don't think the Wesley episodes are bad, necessarily. Most of them are passable or even decent. It's just that I can't think of one (except the one about his Starfleet Academy Investigation) that was also a good episode of Star Trek: TNG. The things I like in TNG (the camaraderie, the cool alien concepts, the philosophy, the ship politics, the world politics, the Patrick Stewart) aren't set up to include Wesley in major ways. Almost every time, he just felt tacked-on to the episode, rather than informing and driving the story like the other characters did.

    I'm sure there were ways to tell a story that focused on Wesley growing up without having to sacrifice what made TNG great, but they didn't really ever seem to figure out that formula except for the one time I mentioned.

  25. - Top - End - #295
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSh View Post
    I presume one of the steps in the wars of the 21st century was that somebody "killed all the lawyers", and burnt the lawbooks, leaving legal procedure to be reconstructed from popular fiction.
    Headcanon accepted.


    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSh View Post
    They're trying to have more independent episodes at this point. There are exceptions (Q, Vash, ...), but generally they don't want a romance starting in one ep to have consequences in later eps. Just like with Kirk.
    This is one of the reasons romance plots rarely made for great Trek episodes. The episodic nature of the series means everything returns to the status quo by the end of the episode, which is not how romance affects most people. Combine that with how seldom the love interest characters are ever referenced again, and it means that almost every romance plot feels pointless because you know it will never amount to anything and never be referenced again.

    There are a few exceptions, but even most of those are generally not great examples of romance. Look at Worf/K'Ehleyr, for example. It has some long-term impact on the show (in the form of Alexander), but outside of her appearances K'Ehleyr is never referenced. It kinda makes sense since Worf is a private person anyway, but it's still not a shining example of a romance plot done well.

    This is one thing that DS9 handled much better.
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  26. - Top - End - #296
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Velaryon View Post
    This is one of the reasons romance plots rarely made for great Trek episodes. The episodic nature of the series means everything returns to the status quo by the end of the episode, which is not how romance affects most people. Combine that with how seldom the love interest characters are ever referenced again, and it means that almost every romance plot feels pointless because you know it will never amount to anything and never be referenced again.

    There are a few exceptions, but even most of those are generally not great examples of romance. Look at Worf/K'Ehleyr, for example. It has some long-term impact on the show (in the form of Alexander), but outside of her appearances K'Ehleyr is never referenced. It kinda makes sense since Worf is a private person anyway, but it's still not a shining example of a romance plot done well.
    Despite not doing much in the way of myth arcs season- or series-wide, I felt like TNG did a pretty good job of maintaining at least small continuities across the storylines. Characters would reference things they had done seasons ago, the Klingon and Romulan stuff kept coming up, and the world felt alive in some small ways. It was definitely a Status Quo show, but it did feel like many of the characters grew throughout the run, if at least in small ways.

  27. - Top - End - #297
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    I think the easiest way to look at what was wrong with the episode is to consider the following))

    1) Plot A is the War Torn Planet and that Salia will be the Leader of the Planet

    2) Plot B is Wesley following in love with Salia, and being interested in her. courting her

    3) Plot C is that Salia and Anya are Shape Shifters

    4) Plot D is that Salia has feelings for Wesley, (while she is Human in Shape-{plot C connection})

    (So the Episode functions with Plot A being the Starting Part and Ending Part, with the Rest of the Episode being about the other plots. This makes the Episode less interesting, and nearly pointless.

    Plot A should have been incorporated more in my opinion, because it would have allowed for some really good bonding moments for Wesley and Salia. Salia grew up elsewhere, is being made leader of this planet, and expected to take on a role that she might not be prepared for at all. Then there is the fact, that she is not going to have any part of her old life left after taking over the role of leader. Wesley has been going down the path to being in Starfleet and the like. Those could have been ways that the two bond.

    Plot C should have been cut along with Plot D's Salia has feelings for Wesley while being shapeshifted as Human. Plot A should have its part increased and made a much larger background element. That would have given the Episode's story much needed weight and a real sense of Poignancy(Feels) because Salia and Wesley are exploring a relationship that simply won't work out. It also would have provided something that would have added meaning to their interactions.

    As written, Plot C and the ignoring of Plot A, just makes the story incrediably silly. I think that it is easy to totally forgot that Salia has any kind of responsibility or anything that makes a reason for why she can't stay with Wesley. Nor is there any kind of reason established why Wesley just can't join her.

    The writers really were stupid to include Plot C, and it feels like it just got tacked on to have the "Star" part in "Star Trek". I just didn't like it any and it just ruins the story which actually could have worked really well with Wesley.

    So that covers that episode. Now, on to the next one, and time to get closer to the episodes that: Ruin the Prime Directive and makes Starfleet a bunch of Smug God Wannabe Bastards; the first appearance of the Borg (Shudder, Shudder, Shudder / May be expecting some weird Borg Nightmares & Dreams -- Yeah, I may just skip this Episode or Maybe just a rather shorter take, Not sure if How much the recap will go); Starfleet are morons, total Morons (the Pakleds). Yeah, places to go!

    -------------------------

    Season 2 Episode 11
    Contagion
    Stardate: 42609.1

    [Plot]
    Picard gets contacted by his friend, Donald Varley, A black man, who is Captain of the Yamato, another Galaxy class starship like the Enterprise. It is having problems. Picard takes the ship to visit and there is some speculation that the problems are the result of flaws in the Galaxy Class design.

    After some talking with Donald Varley, the Yamato blows up. Picard had the Yamato's logs downloaded, so what happened to it, starts happening slowly to the Enterprise. A review of the Captain's logs reveals that they (the Yamato) discovered some things relating to the Iconians, a civilization.

    The Iconians were called the Demons of Air and Darkness, and viewed with considerable disorder and distrust. They were considered conquerors and not exactly have a great reputation. Also, A Romulan Warbird appears.

    The crew join to the place that appears to be Iconia, the homeworld of the civilization. There, a facility launches a probe, which Geordi says should be destroyed. It caused the problems for the Yamato, when it scanned it.

    That done, Picard heads down to the planet with Worf and Data. He had a conversation with Wesley earlier about the Iconians and how the crew of the enterprise would appear interesting to stone age people.

    The Iconians had the technology to create gateways to any of a number of places. Data has some interaction with the device, then after getting disabled, Worf takes Data to engineering. Picard sets the facility to explode. Also, the Romulans show up, and destroy a probe too.

    Data has some basic system happen that clears out the Iconian program/thing, and Geordi does that to the ship's computer. The Romulans do the same, then also Picard ends up on the Romulan ship, gets beamed away. The Enterprise flies off, while the Romulan ship is fixed, and the facility blows up.

    [Rating]
    Hidden Gem
    5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on

    {Episode Commentary}
    This is probably one of the best episodes in Season 2. We learn about the Iconians, what they could do. Then the plot relations with the Romulans happen. Everything relates together, the Romulans got the Yamato's log, so it was affected.

    We also learn about how Picard has an interest in Archaeology, a passion that Picard will continue to indulge in. Some very nice character Development here. Then we have how the studies of the Iconians help to explore who they are, and let's us learn about another race that came before and is gone. It is a really nice bit.

    Really solid writing all around. Nothing terrible at all, and things flow very nicely and naturally. And it adds some significant parts to our characters: Data has backup systems for his safety, Picard likes archaeology, and Troi uses her empathy to great effect in this episode.

    So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

    Trackers)
    Poker Playing: 1
    Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 1 ()
    Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
    Hidden Gems: 4
    Funny Guest Star Appearances: 2 (marc alaimo plays a romylan here)
    Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
    Prime Directives: 2
    Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
    Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
    Riker Romances Something/Someone: 1
    Pithy Aesops: 1
    Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory";
    Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
    Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
    Actually Alien Aliens: 1
    Lore's Appearances: 1
    *Data's Emotions: 3
    *Troi Troubles: 1
    *Money Matters: 1
    Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
    1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
    2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:
    Last edited by russdm; 2021-09-25 at 02:14 AM.
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  28. - Top - End - #298
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    Picard takes the ship to visit and there is some speculation that the problems are the result of flaws in the Galaxy Class design.
    The failsafes aren't and the warp core explodes if you stare at it too hard?

    The Enterprise was a deathtrap during TNG.

  29. - Top - End - #299
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    The failsafes aren't and the warp core explodes if you stare at it too hard?
    I wonder if some fan has added up how many episodes had a narrowly averted warp core breach.

  30. - Top - End - #300
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Probably. Given that it actually explode the ship at least three times but it managed to unhappen due to timey wimey stuff in the actual series.

    (And Voyager ejected its warp core four separate times, although one of those was the copy Voyager. But then Voyager also managed to explode 15 of the 2 shuttles they started with.)

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