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2021-10-20, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
In my experience, "TV Grumpy" only works if you have other redeeming characteristics. That makes it a natural choice to give your Grumpy character an altruistic occupation (doctor, firefighter, teacher, somebody who helps people), because BOOM, you've got baked-in sympathy and can make them grumpy without necessarily requiring too much charisma in the portrayal.
However, you still need some charisma no matter how altruistic the occupation, because this is a TV show and the acting has to be good and make sense. Pulaski never made sense for me: she always stuck out in the scene, didn't seem to fit, didn't seem to "get it" with the rest of the crew. Star Trek: TNG's whole schtick was idealism -- every single main character is a good person, who tries their best, and the worst they ever do is process some complicated emotions improperly. There's really just no room for cynics.
Pulaski would probably make sense in another show, but in TNG her cardinal sin was "not fitting in."Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-10-20 at 09:56 AM.
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2021-10-21, 03:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Season 2 Episode 19
Manhunt
Stardate: 42859.2
[Plot]
the crew pick up some fish people to go to a conference. then the crew end up picking up Lwaxana Troi. who has decided to flirt with and chase after Picard, who decides to hide in the holodeck. later a few others join him, including Mrs. Troi.
also turns out the fish people are planning to blow something up. thanks to Mrs. Troi and her sensing talents
[Rating]
?
{Episode Commentary}
i don't how to really rate this episode because I am not sure whether I am supposed to take it seriously or not. Mrs. Troi has a thing, and Picard hides away in a Dixon Hill Holoprogram, while the fish guys hang around in the background. Then there is the whole conference, which is not discussed at all, making the fish people wanting to blow up there, not make any sense at all. Why do have the delegates from the fish people? why is the conference happening?
the whole episode is just about Mrs Troi, doing things. I just don't know, is this episode intended to be serious? comedic? just completely random? Yeah....
So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on
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2021-10-21, 04:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Any episode with Diana's mother Lwaxana Troi should be handled the same way Picard does, by running and hiding. She is the only thing in the Galaxy that Picard truly fears.
Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.
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2021-10-21, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Fair assessment. I went back to look at her episodes and refresh my memory; I can see how she doesn't quite gel with the rest of the cast. Like, she's McCoy's grump but without the heart.
Isn't Lwaxana's actress also the voice of the ship's computer? I know she's been around forever in the Trek circles.
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2021-10-21, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.
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2021-10-21, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-21, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Holy crap, Lwaxana Troi was married to Gene Roddenberry and involved all over the Star Trek franchise
Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-10-21 at 10:40 AM.
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2021-10-21, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
This is from page 1, so I apologise, but I have just started DS9 and there's a point where someone (Mrs O'Brien?) comments on how it's not safe for a child to be given the same freedom on a space station that they have on a starship. Having just watched most of the (TOS/TNG) movies, where the starships are, if not primarily, then at least substantially, warships, while Deep Space 9 is, as per the series pilot, an apparently unarmed civilian/administrative entity not expected to be subject to attack, that struck me as rather odd.
So the quoted post resonated rather.
I suppose the point was supposed to be that there's more trouble for kids to get into on a space station: on a starship, everyone is a member of Starfleet and therefore nominally trustworthy, whereas on a space station there are criminal elements and shady characters. But even so, should the kids be on starships at all? Is there anything more dangerous on a space station than there is in a regular city?GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
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2021-10-21, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
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2021-10-21, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
I think that goes part in parcel with the odd way Starfleet is essentially a mix of reigning government, the civil service, a research university/institute, and the military.
Almost every one* of their ships is armed for combat, laid out for freight and personelle movement, and heavily outfitted with scientific instrumentation and laboratories.
Specialization is dead, and everyone seems to be Starfleet or Starfleet-adjacent in the Federation; Roddenberry and Heinlein (depending on era) could probably see each other's philosophical gardens from the front porch - even if they're on opposite sides of the street.
*hi, Defiant &co.
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2021-10-21, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2021-10-21, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
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2021-10-21, 02:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
I mean... you SAY that... and I generally agree with you that its MEANT to work that way... but the various series and movies often blurred the line so much there wasn't even one anymore.
If you try to reconcile the various canon, then starfleet becomes so entwined with the federation government that they are almost indistinguishable. Starfleet Admirals are ALWAYS making decisions that belong to the federation executive in any reasonable circumstance.
I mean if you want to start with "starfleet is the military arm of the federation". Great. That's the start. But they also do all the scientific surveys, exploration, etc. I can think of a couple episodes where starfleet dealt with "civilian" survey teams, but 99% of the time the survey teams were made up of starfleet personnel.
So now Starfleet is both military and scientific exploration arms of the federation. But ALSO how many times did we see starfleet doing first contact, acting as ambassadors and as mediators? creating trade agreements?
At some point 100% of the work of the civilian government of the federation became the purview of starfleet. And at that point they became fundamentally the same thing except on paper. You can mentally add in "starfleet is doing this action on behalf of the federation which has empowered them to do this mediation or trade agreement or whatever" in order to mentally reconcile it, but its never made clear and often contradicts that kind of mental reconciliation attempt.Last edited by Wintermoot; 2021-10-21 at 02:21 PM.
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2021-10-21, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2021-10-21, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Yeah, while "Starfleet's mission has always been one of peace" (pace Kirk) it's also clear that their ships are expected to be combat-ready at the drop of a hat without reinforcement and even the non-specialist warships are heavily armed. Indeed, in the DS9 pilot itself, the Enterprise is considered (by both sides) to be sufficient deterrent to hold multiple Cardassian warships at bay.
There are probably numerous other examples from the various series, but overall the trend seems to be that a Starfleet ship at full strength is at least a match for even specialised warcraft of other fleets - the only exceptions of which I'm aware being the Borg and some of the biggest Romulan vessels.
While my knowledge of Trek is very movie-heavy, "calling for backup" also doesn't seem to be a thing Starfleet captains do in combat situations unless heavily outmatched. Kirk needed help from the Excelsior against the prototype in The Undiscovered Country but that's the only occasion I can think of and even then Sulu seemed to do that on his own initiative rather than being specifically asked for help.GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
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2021-10-21, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
This was one of the (many) things I liked about Enterprise - it offered great justification for the ships to be heavily armed. Exploratory ships are likely to be far away from support, going into unknown regions with unknown dangers. Makes sense to be heavily armed and armored for when things don't work out all peaceful-like. Not to mention the wars with the Klingon Empire and Romulan Star Empire. It also stands to reason that the Federation would have a good advantage on tech, considering their incorporation of other cultures (the Klingons and Romulans also had other cultures in their empires but relied on subjugation and slavery).
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2021-10-21, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
In ages past, navies were used for most of those functions. Darwin's ship was not the HMS Beagle for no reason. Exploration and survey work was done by government ships even when they weren't formally part of the navy, many "first contacts" between civilizations were via naval ships, and sending your ambassador on a warship as a show of power was common.
Starfleet seems kind of strange to people used to a Navy that is only for fighting, but that's not the historical standard.
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2021-10-21, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Gonna disagree. Outside of her start on the season she actually does have heart. She's one of the characters that always jumps to the defense of other races and characters. and outside of her starting abrasiveness with Data, she actually does treat him with growing respect.
Basically the problem was she was designed to have a maccoy/Spock relationship with Data, but Data as a character doesn't punch back the way Spock did. So it comes off as mean rather than the way it did with Maccoy. When what she says is actually far tamer than Maccoy
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2021-10-21, 10:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2021-10-22, 12:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
I agree that Enterprise did a good job of showing why a solitary exploration vessel needs to have enough armaments to defend itself and others. Even in the TNG era of Star Trek, 200 years later, the Enterprise often finds itself alone against unexpected dangers and can only rarely call in Federation reinforcements or a favor from the Klingon Empire to help them out.
Starfleet ship assignments, for whatever reason, just don't give overlapping areas to exploration ships. In their core territories, you can easily get support from a nearby ship or starbase, but out on the edges each ship is pretty much on its own.
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2021-10-22, 07:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Like getting kidnapped and taken on an outbound ship from the station.
Indeed. Space is just incredibly hostile and starships need armaments to defend themselves from God knows what out there (even before taking into account hostile civilizations with armed ships).
There was an old paper written by some NASA engineers about how human exploration to the farthest reaches of our solar system would likely need things like shields and lasers to protect the crew from radiation and errant objects.
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2021-10-22, 07:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
The ships defenses are barely enough to keep out some of the natural hazards they deal with from time to time, and there's a few cases where being able to direct large amounts of energy with precision prove quite useful for peaceful purposes.
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2021-10-22, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Space stations probably have a lot more people coming & going than starships, many of whom are not Starfleet members. That's even more the case on DS9 which is on the fringe of Federation space and not even really Starfleet property. Add in the various strange and unknown beings that pass through such a place, and it'd be fairly easy for a kid to get whisked aboard some random freighter which could be out of the system before anyone even notices the child is missing.
Is there more danger than a regular city? Probably not a modern one, but almost certainly more than a 24th century utopian Earth city.
I agree with this. I've been rewatching TNG along with this thread (though I've gotten a bit ahead and slowed down waiting for the discussion to catch up), and one of my surprising takeaways is that I like Dr. Pulaski a lot more than I remembered. She does pick on Data a few times, but frankly I think the amount of this is pretty overblown, and she shows significant improvement in that attitude throughout the season. I think they figured out fairly quickly that recreating the Spock/Bones dynamic wasn't working, and once they started moving away from it she really started growing as a character. And frankly, that's more of a character arc than Dr. Crusher usually has, at least until they start leaning more heavily on her as a potential love interest for Captain Picard. And even then, I think I prefer the more adversarial relationship between Pulaski and Picard, because endless will they/won't they relationships on TV shows just don't do anything for me.
No kidding. "We're the only Federation ship in the area" is the justification for seemingly half of the Enterprise's adventures. It sure is a good thing that even the exploration-focused Starfleet ships are better fighters than even dedicated military ships from most other species, huh?
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2021-10-22, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
In regards to the Undiscovered Country: Spock says that Kirk always thought that Starfleet's mission was one of peace. He basically cuts Kirk off who then starts to give an answer of not mincing words with his first officer but Chang says something that stops the conversation. From what I recall.
Also for the movie is that the original script had Sulu rescuing the other crew but William Shatner argued against it so it ended up getting changed. Then thanks to Shatner that it took so long for a captain Sulu. There were promotion scenes in wrath of Khan but Shatner flubbed them and so they got cut.
Shatner had a massive ego and still does.
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I think that the bit with Dr. Pulaski might have been overblown with the same issue that Wesley had. Episodic. I think that TNG was aired weekly, wasn't it? So you had a whole week to talk about what happened in the episode. With streaming services, I can watch TNG in a relatively short time between episodes. That makes it easier for handling things.
Also I think that the details about dr. Pulaski may have gotten overblown in the telling. Haven't added more to the trackers for her and Data.
I think that had dr. Pulaski gotten more time and dr Crusher had not come back as soon, dr Pulaski could have been explored more.
As it is, Crusher ends up being more dr Franklin of Babylon 5 than any kind of real interesting character.
Then we get episodes for Crusher later in the show like the alien love space ghost. Because that was something we needed to see. I find it pretty funny that the episode got shared throughout Starfleet as it gets brought up in Lower Decks. Did Crusher not ask for privacy over what happened with her crew? Or did she just file a report and hope that no one would notice?Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
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2021-10-24, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
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2021-10-26, 04:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Season 2 Episode 20
The Emissary
Stardate: 42901.3
[Plot]
the crew are playing poker and Worf is doing well. we get the line, "Klingons never bluff.", and we don't get to see what was going to happen. the crew suddenly have a mission to go. the crew get a probe that contains a former love interest of Worf's, K'Ehleyr
she is there for helping with a Klingon ship that is going to be waking up the vessel's crew. they went to sleep during when there was no peace. she is all for just blowing the ship up. Picard wants other options and so assigns her to work with Worf and later also Data.
sparks go off however, so she goes to the holdeck and runs Worf's exercise program. Worf joins her, they end up knocking boots, Klingon style. Worf totally is up to get hitched and she says no. things go totally awkward and they spar some, verbally.
the crew make it to the ship and it is awake. the ship tries to attack the crew and also show that it is an old ship. Worf ends up bluffing the Klingons. then she leaves amicably.
[Rating]
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on
Hidden Gems
{Episode Commentary}
This is another Klingon episode, and features Klingons. It however is really mainly about Worf and his former love interest, who is Half-Klingon. We get some sense through scenes what that is like. It makes for some charactizition. Then we have the issue the two's relationship.
This episode is probably the first that highlights that Worf was raised by Humans and so is not approaching Klingon Culture the same as other Klingons. Worf interacted with Humans and was raised by them, so he developed a Human-Centric Way of being Klingon. He didn't ingest or absorb full Klingon Beliefs. In the episodes of the Klingon Civil War, Worf complains about spending time with the enemies of Gowron, and also about Gowron fighting one of his own men, both things that make sense from a human perspective but not from the Klingons' one.
This being raised by humans really influences how Worf deals with being a Klingon. He may be heavily overcompensating as a result. Or maybe just trying to prove he is truly Klingon despite being dressed in a Starfleet uniform.
This episode also put in place points that would pay off to effect the entire rest of the franchise, even more so than the Borg did. A child gets produced from this, but also, it gives Worf his motivation for Killing Duras later on. It also opens the pathway to Gowron to became Head of the Klingon Empire and everything that follows. Had there been no relationship or kid, then Worf would have needed some other reason/way to fight and kill Duras. Then having helped Gowron take power, Worf ends up removing him from power too. SO this is probably one of the most impactful episodes in the series.
So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on
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Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 3 (Prime Directive)
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 5
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 4 (Suzie Plakson)
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 2
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 2
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory";
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1
*Money Matters: 1
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
1) Dr. P is mean to Data: 2
2) Dr. P does what she does to Data and NO ONE calls her out on her disrespectful behavior towards an officer of Starfleet that has been commissioned:Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
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2021-10-26, 07:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
This is one of those episodes I barely remember. Was a reason given for the crew being asleep?
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2021-10-26, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
The implication is that the use of cryogenic sleep for some ships during the last Federation/Klingon War was normal:
SpoilerK'EHLEYR: Two days ago, Starbase Three Three Six received an automated transmission from a Klingon ship, the T'Ong. That ship was sent out over seventy five years ago.
RIKER: When the Federation and the Klingon Empire were still at war.
K'EHLEYR: The message was directed to the Klingon High Command. It said only that the ship was returning home and was about to reach its awakening point.
PICARD: Which suggests that the crew had been in cryogenic sleep for that long journey.
K'EHLEYR: Exactly.
RIKER: And when this crew is revived?
K'EHLEYR: We'll have a ship full of Klingons who think the war is still going on.
PICARD: So our task is to find the ship, and tell the Klingons they're no longer at war.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2021-10-26, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
I just want to say that K'ehleyr was a GREAT character played by a fantastic actress and got major short shrift on this series by being yet another female character killed for no reason but to drive the male's plotline. A plotline that leads to one of the most hated recurring characters/plotlines in two series (Alexander)
Ah well. Life as a recurring character I guess. Still, she's on my top five list of star trek recurrings.
Worf being the worst sort of absentee father is hilariously terrible.
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2021-10-26, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
K'ehleyr was a fantastic character and I'm so annoyed at her inevitable fridging later on. Worf in general had one of the most interesting arcs in the show, because I feel like the writers really put in the work to flesh out Klingon society rather than just having them be another planet of hats culture. I love the way Worf comes at his Klingon heritage, sometimes questioning it as a human and sometimes trying overly hard to embrace it because he wants to prove that he's a real Klingon. Even through to the final season, we were still getting great scenes with Worf explaining/demonstrating what his Klingon heritage meant to him.
Alexander truly was awful and irritating, but I honestly liked most of Worf's parts in the Alexander scenes. Worf not knowing how to be a dad is great storytelling. I just wish they'd found a better way to portray his child.