New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

[Dire_Flumph]

The only memorable thing to me about this episode is how much of a contrast there is when the real Leah Brahms turns up in a later episode. Mainly because that was hilarious, although it does raise a question of just how bad the Enterprise's computer is when it gets someone's personality so utterly wrong despite being asked to base them on the real person's psychological profile--or maybe Starfleet psychiatrists are just rubbish?

It was addressed on the first season episode with the Bynars that the holodeck has limits with how "real" the people on it feel. Which doesn't come across well to us on screen because they're still being played by human actors.

The more interesting issue, which is also addressed in a Lt Barclay episode, is the implications of creating hologram of a real person and being able to program it to do whatever you want. Star Trek barely brushes on the topic of holographic pornography (mostly in DS9), but in reality this would become squicky really fast. Just imagine Rule 34 in the 24th century.

What's weird is there doesn't seem to be anything in the regulations about making holographic replicas of your crewmates for sex, only that it seems regarded in bad taste (Quark gets in trouble with security on DS9 not for making a holo-Kira for his brothel, but for breaking into her personnel file to do so). Troi even doesn't seem to find anything problematic in Reg making an unflattering holographic copy of his boss to beat up.

Otherwise, I think it's just sort of accepted that sex is a big part of what the crew use the holodeck for. Even Janeway was more or less confirmed to be using the holodeck for that purpose on Voyager.

[DigoDragon]

Otherwise, I think it's just sort of accepted that sex is a big part of what the crew use the holodeck for.

Lower Decks ran with that idea with one of the maintenance chores being to clean out the holodeck. Mariner is seen removing containers and it's left to the imagination through her disgusted reaction to the job.


I am concerned about how often people make replicas of their fellow crewmates in the holodeck for personal reasons. Like, the holodeck doors are rarely locked. :P

[factotum]

Lower Decks ran with that idea with one of the maintenance chores being to clean out the holodeck. Mariner is seen removing containers and it's left to the imagination through her disgusted reaction to the job.

You'd think they'd just set things up so anything like that just gets transported out into space when the holodeck shuts down!

[Wintermoot]

You'd think they'd just set things up so anything like that just gets transported out into space when the holodeck shuts down!

The secret origin of the Crystalline Entity. Frozen Space Spooj seeking revenge against the Federation.

[Bohandas]

You'd think they'd just set things up so anything like that just gets transported out into space when the holodeck shuts down!

Or broken down into atoms or energy for recycling

[theNater]

You'd think they'd just set things up so anything like that just gets transported out into space when the holodeck shuts down!

Or broken down into atoms or energy for recycling

I dunno, it seems like giving the holodeck a setting that destroys organic matter would be a safety issue.

[GloatingSwine]

I dunno, it seems like giving the holodeck a setting that destroys organic matter would be a safety issue.

You have seen a holodeck episode, yes?

[Kantaki]

You have seen a holodeck episode, yes?

Aren't those usually malfunctions?
Not deliberate "features".
On the other hand the safety protocols can be disabled with a simple voice command, so the holodeck vaporizing/spacing everyone inside when someone presses the off-button wouldn't be too far fetched.

[factotum]

Or broken down into atoms or energy for recycling

I don't think Star Trek has ever shown the capability of converting matter directly into energy--why would they need to mess around with all that antimatter if they could do that?

[The Glyphstone]

I don't think Star Trek has ever shown the capability of converting matter directly into energy--why would they need to mess around with all that antimatter if they could do that?

Replicator assemble matter directly out of energy, it seems like its be simpler to reverse that.

[GloatingSwine]

Replicator assemble matter directly out of energy, it seems like its be simpler to reverse that.

The replicator system can recycle matter, it's an intermittent concern early on in Voyager (before they forgot) and DS9 shows used plates being put back in the replicator and disposed of.

[russdm]

that might be simply because the plates came from the replicator?

Given, events, i dont think that the writers ever considered any of the implications of what the replicators could do, especially in relation to the holodeck.

given the references to "Vulcan Love slave" and quark sells it.... I think that the writers didn't consider the moral or legal or ethical issues. Technically, geordi had a relationship with something using leah's body. did leah give that permission? no. Leah freaks out a little when Leah really shows up. ten we have what happens in the broccoli or barclay episode with holodeck versions of his fellow crew mates. Which has to be a violation of their privacy.

[Peelee]

that might be simply because the plates came from the replicator?

Given, events, i dont think that the writers ever considered any of the implications of what the replicators could do, especially in relation to the holodeck.

given the references to "Vulcan Love slave" and quark sells it.... I think that the writers didn't consider the moral or legal or ethical issues. Technically, geordi had a relationship with something using leah's body. did leah give that permission? no. Leah freaks out a little when Leah really shows up. ten we have what happens in the broccoli or barclay episode with holodeck versions of his fellow crew mates. Which has to be a violation of their privacy.

Why?

Bob can write fanfiction of Peelee all he wants to and that doesn't violate my privacy. A known likeness being used with completely different personalities seems like little more than a version of this.

[russdm]

well, maybe.

it just seems that Leah was upset and the crew not happy with Barclay with what he did. from the actions done, it feels fairly questionable.

as you say, it would be Peelee and Peelee's personality known by Bob, which is being used in a fanfiction. which based in how the holodeck gets used might involve intimate activity. that would definitely being creepy some. and it is clear from the barclay holodeck thing, that tweaks can be done. So, adding in some personality parts. the whole thing with the holodecks seems to me to follow under the use of images or people's images/appearance.

whatever, the whole thing is just a little unsettling

[Bohandas]

Why?

Bob can write fanfiction of Peelee all he wants to and that doesn't violate my privacy. A known likeness being used with completely different personalities seems like little more than a version of this.

That's my assessment as well

[Ionathus]

Technically, geordi had a relationship with something using leah's body. did leah give that permission? no. Leah freaks out a little when Leah really shows up. ten we have what happens in the broccoli or barclay episode with holodeck versions of his fellow crew mates. Which has to be a violation of their privacy.

First off, calling him Broccoli is delightful and I'll be doing it forever now, so thanks for that

Second, I remember really liking this episode at the time, specifically because what Geordi was doing was socially questionable, but ultimately turned into a harmless private pep talk to help him solve the problem at hand.

I was really excited to explore this further when they brought Brahms back, but...

Why?

Bob can write fanfiction of Peelee all he wants to and that doesn't violate my privacy. A known likeness being used with completely different personalities seems like little more than a version of this.

Not a privacy violation, I agree. A deeply creepy thing to do, nonetheless. I would be horrified to learn that a coworker had written romantic fanfiction about me.

And that's just written words and imagination -- I would be outright furious if I stumbled across a physical recreation of me with a different personality. The sense of invasion and betrayal would be overpowering.

Remember the early episode where Riker destroys a clone of himself? Same vibe for me - and in fact, I'm kind of surprised Barclay's Riker was played for laughs given that previously established berserk button of Riker's.

All of this combines to make the followup Brahms episode a real letdown for me. It's still interesting, but it really doesn't make the most out of the opportunity -- to show Geordi how deeply creepy it is to project his fantasies onto a woman he doesn't know. Hell, he even gets a rant at the end to somehow justify his behavior!

The fact that he did the exact same thing that Broccoli did ("create a fictionalized version of a person I admire, to provide something the real version won't") is kinda glossed over, or made into a heroic, resourceful thing instead of the embarrassing and unsettling deviance that Broccoli's holodeck shenanigans were portrayed as (But that's protagonist-centered morality for you).

I liked Broccoli, I think he's a terribly interesting character in a show with so many Terribly Clever Perfectly Ethical Golden Child Officers. Plus he looks a bit like bill wurtz so that helps sell the goofy angle.

The holodeck is already a terrifying idea and if I was Starfleet, I would absolutely put programming in it that would restrict recreations of real people - especially coworkers.

At the very least, Geordi, password protect your fanfiction crap, geez

[Bohandas]

I don;t see why anything would ever need to be restricted in a simulation.

[Wintermoot]

I don;t see why anything would ever need to be restricted in a simulation.

You don't? In today's real-world, people are creating deep fake pornography by taking the image of popular actors and actresses against their wishes and I think it's a pretty big deal and restrictions absolutely belong in place. Write it off as harmless "fan-fiction" all you want, it is extremely harmful to the person whose identity is being misused in myriad ways

[KillianHawkeye]

All of this combines to make the followup Brahms episode a real letdown for me. It's still interesting, but it really doesn't make the most out of the opportunity -- to show Geordi how deeply creepy it is to project his fantasies onto a woman he doesn't know. Hell, he even gets a rant at the end to somehow justify his behavior!

I agree, I think letting Geordi somehow turn the tables on Real-Leah's outrage in the follow-up episode was a bit of a mistake, even though it was based on her assumption that a lot more happened between Geordi and Fake-Leah than actually did.

It's basically like meeting a colleague who you only know from LinkedIn and finding out they made a lifelike sex doll of you. Despite jumping to conclusions, her feelings are totally valid and shouldn't be dismissed so easily IMO.

I'd rather the episode show that they were both in the wrong, at least.

EDIT:

I don;t see why anything would ever need to be restricted in a simulation.

Maybe, but there's a difference between privately fantasizing about a real person and that person finding physical evidence that you privately fantasize about them.

[Peelee]

First off, calling him Broccoli is delightful and I'll be doing it forever now, so thanks for that

That's what they do in most of the episodes he's in. I think they dropped it in Voyager, but TNG rode that hard (and it was hilarious).

Not a privacy violation, I agree. A deeply creepy thing to do, nonetheless. I would be horrified to learn that a coworker had written romantic fanfiction about me.

And that's just written words and imagination -- I would be outright furious if I stumbled across a physical recreation of me with a different personality. The sense of invasion and betrayal would be overpowering.

Remember the early episode where Riker destroys a clone of himself? Same vibe for me - and in fact, I'm kind of surprised Barclay's Riker was played for laughs given that previously established berserk button of Riker's.

All of this combines to make the followup Brahms episode a real letdown for me. It's still interesting, but it really doesn't make the most out of the opportunity -- to show Geordi how deeply creepy it is to project his fantasies onto a woman he doesn't know. Hell, he even gets a rant at the end to somehow justify his behavior!

The fact that he did the exact same thing that Broccoli did ("create a fictionalized version of a person I admire, to provide something the real version won't") is kinda glossed over, or made into a heroic, resourceful thing instead of the embarrassing and unsettling deviance that Broccoli's holodeck shenanigans were portrayed as (But that's protagonist-centered morality for you).

I liked Broccoli, I think he's a terribly interesting character in a show with so many Terribly Clever Perfectly Ethical Golden Child Officers. Plus he looks a bit like bill wurtz so that helps sell the goofy angle.

The holodeck is already a terrifying idea and if I was Starfleet, I would absolutely put programming in it that would restrict recreations of real people - especially coworkers.

At the very least, Geordi, password protect your fanfiction crap, geez

I agree, I think letting Geordi somehow turn the tables on Real-Leah's outrage in the follow-up episode was a bit of a mistake, even though it was based on her assumption that a lot more happened between Geordi and Fake-Leah than actually did.

It's basically like meeting a colleague who you only know from LinkedIn and finding out they made a lifelike sex doll of you. Despite jumping to conclusions, her feelings are totally valid and shouldn't be dismissed so easily IMO.

I'd rather the episode show that they were both in the wrong, at least.

Oh, I agree with all that wholeheartedly. It's definitely creepy, and all the rest. It's just not a violation of privacy.

Now, Boimler using everyone's personal logs to create accurate representations with excellent prediction modeling in the holodeck to practice for an interview is the polar opposite: not creepy at all, actually a really good idea, but SUPER violation of privacy.

[Bohandas]

You don't? In today's real-world, people are creating deep fake pornography by taking the image of popular actors and actresses against their wishes and I think it's a pretty big deal and restrictions absolutely belong in place. Write it off as harmless "fan-fiction" all you want, it is extremely harmful to the person whose identity is being misused in myriad ways

That is correct, I don't.

As long as the deep fake pronography isn't being falsely promoted as real, that's fraud, and that's an entirely different issue.

[Peelee]

You don't? In today's real-world, people are creating deep fake pornography by taking the image of popular actors and actresses against their wishes and I think it's a pretty big deal and restrictions absolutely belong in place

And what relevance does that have here? What you're talking about are people who charge money for appearing in productions, who are made to appear as if they appeared in productions that they did not appear in. This can have both monetary and reputational damage. But this is wholly irrelevant to the Holodeck, which within the Star Trek universe is explicitly a fictional facsimile of any person, place, or thing. If Geordi created Peelee in one of his holodeck simulations, then I would have no monetary or reputational damage (or any other damage), because it is not a production, and no reasonable person would believe that it was, or that I was involved in it in any capacity.

At the most actionable, it would be likeness rights, but unless it's a holodeck novel that is being published for widescale use (or sold by, say, Quark, in a place outside or at the edge of the Federation space, which still engages in currency), there's really no actual damages.

[Ionathus]

If your argument is that the holodeck deepfakes aren't being distributed and are therefore tantamount to private fanfiction, I can understand the logic.

I still argue that an organization like Starfleet would be well-advised to put some sort of safeguard in place to prevent an officer from walking in on their own Sexy Simulation Self as they're trying to track down where a subordinate went. It's played for creepy laughs with Barclay but it shouldn't be. It's a horrifying thought.

It's Starfleet's ship, Starfleet's holodeck, which the crew uses at Starfleet's discretion. Were I in that decision-making position, even in a post-scarcity utopia, I would absolutely restrict the holodeck's ability to recreate actual real-life people. At the very least, don't load up the computer with the likeness and personality of every member of your ship that you're all stuck on for 8+ years. That's a fiasco waiting to happen.

[Dire_Flumph]

At the most actionable, it would be likeness rights, but unless it's a holodeck novel that is being published for widescale use (or sold by, say, Quark, in a place outside or at the edge of the Federation space, which still engages in currency), there's really no actual damages.

And even that specific case actually happened on Voyager, complete with defamation of character, and there was still zero indication that this had ever been considered a problem by Federation law.

In that episode, the Doctor wrote and published (this was late Voyager when they could call up the Federation) a holonovel using the likenesses of several crewmembers only slightly altered for the story. The crew were powerless to change this (they were not portrayed in a positive light) and had to resort to pleading with the Doctor to make changes.

It kind of staggers me that different writers across three Trek series of the time were of the stance that the Federation would have no interest in protecting the rights of those duplicated in holo form, when even the Voyager episode (of all series...) manages to make some good points on why they should.

[Peelee]

And even that specific case actually happened on Voyager, complete with defamation of character, and there was still zero indication that this had ever been considered a problem by Federation law.

In that episode, the Doctor wrote and published (this was late Voyager when they could call up the Federation) a holonovel using the likenesses of several crewmembers only slightly altered for the story. The crew were powerless to change this (they were not portrayed in a positive light) and had to resort to pleading with the Doctor to make changes.

It kind of staggers me that different writers across three Trek series of the time were of the stance that the Federation would have no interest in protecting the rights of those duplicated in holo form, when even the Voyager episode (of all series...) manages to make some good points on why they should.

Great catch! Especially given that, by virtue of being writers/directors/producers/showrunners/actors for a major media production, almost everyone involved around be at least possibly familiar with intellectual property and character likeness issues, and yet still figured that wouldn't pose any challemge at all in the story. That can't be oversight - it is almost certainly the case that it's an intentional choice that the Federation does not have defamation or likeness rights as a concept anymore (at least for members of Starfleet).

[The Glyphstone]

Random accidentally cloning people is a thing that just happens in the Federation sometimes. Itd be impossible to meaningfully enforce ownership of a likeness when 2+ people legitimately have the rights to it.

[Peelee]

Random accidentally cloning people is a thing that just happens in the Federation sometimes. Itd be impossible to meaningfully enforce ownership of a likeness when 2+ people legitimately have the rights to it.

Imean, likeness rights are enforced IRL and twins exist.

[The Glyphstone]

Imean, likeness rights are enforced IRL and twins exist.

Yeah, but twins are there from birth. You can't spontaneously develop an identical twin in your 30s who just mooned the Klingon ambassador, and by the way how are your cardio skills?

[Peelee]

Yeah, but twins are there from birth. You can't spontaneously develop an identical twin in your 30s who just mooned the Klinger ambassador, and by the way how are your cardio skills?

Let's be fair here, the Klinger ambassador has been trying to get a Section 8 for years.

[The Glyphstone]

Let's be fair here, the Klinger ambassador has been trying to get a Section 8 for years.

*Angry bat'leth noises intensify*