New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

[Gnoman]

That sounds like a mangling of the George La Forge story with the MLK story for Uhura in TOS.

When they decided to add a disabled character to the main cast, the people in charge chose to name that character after a quadriplegic by the name of George La Forge, who was prominent in the fan community before his death in 1975.

Nichelle Nichols has talked many times about intending to leave the original show because the role of Uhura was too minor until a conversation with MLK himself asked her to stay on because seeing a black woman in such a prominent TV role was too important. This belief was later confirmed when Whoopi Goldberg demanded a role on TNG as a result of growing up watching Uhura.

[Peelee]

Just did a search and can't find anything confirming that online, do you remember where you heard it?

Yeah, it was some person who went by the handle "apocryphal".

Whoops.

[Velaryon]

That's largely par for the course. Scotty was hardly front and centre most of the time in the original series, it was largely the Kirk, McCoy and Spock show (with friends). That might even have been why they moved Geordi into engineering after the first season, they just didn't know what to do with him!

It may have been a contributing factor. He definitely still had a prominent role in a lot of episodes, but most of it was in the form of supporting other characters' plot lines and being one of the two biggest sources of technobabble (the other being Data, of course). I think part of the problem is that a lot of the unique capabilities Geordi might have had because of his visor could just as easily be delivered by anybody holding a tricorder. But it wasn't just that - he got less personality development than many of the other characters as well. The only information I remember about his family came from a 7th season episode centering around his mother. He rather infamously has fewer romantic prospects than any of the other main cast, too. I think even Wesley Crusher was more successful in the romance department than poor Geordi.

He's still a cool character, but definitely not as well used by the writers as most of his castmates.

[russdm]

Season 3 Episode 9
The Vengeance Factor
Stardate: 43421.9

[Plot]
the crew go to visit a place that has things stolen from. it turns out to be a bunch of marauders called gatherers. the crew find them after taking the leader lady from a planet with her chef, yuta.

yuta becomes a squeeze for riker, while she goes off and kills a guy. riker goes to make his time with yuta to be between two equals. the crew go to the leading place of the gatherers, and for reasons, dr redhead checks out the dead guy

that ends up leading to how yuta was the one who killed the guy. this means riker has to do something. the leader of the gatherers is part of the clan that killed those of yuta's clan. riker zaps yuta and gets drunk, oh and that leader guy survives

[Rating]
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

{Episode Commentary}
this is a little worse than mediocre.

it feels like two separate plots were combined, gatherers and yuta, and smashed into a mixed mess. neither can really carry emotional weight and then the story is...

to be honest, i would have liked to see riker stop yuta while she kills the leader of the gatherers. it feels like it would have kept the emotional beats from the leader lady about revenge and feuds.

i also don't know why yuta doesn't take steps to steal a small phaser and shoot people. it would have helped.

yeah it has the dual plots and the boring ending

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 5
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 5 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory";
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1
*Money Matters: 1
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

[Bohandas]

is star trek a good movie series?

The TV shows are what carry it, not the movies. The movies are average sci-fi

[factotum]

The TV shows are what carry it, not the movies. The movies are average sci-fi

Depends which movies you're talking about. Wrath of Khan is a very good SF movie, I'd say, helped massively by some of William Shatner and Ricardo Montalban's best performances. A lot of them tend to be OK with good bits...like the battle scene at the end of Nemesis, which is by far and away the best part of what is a rather pedestrian movie.

[DigoDragon]

...like the battle scene at the end of Nemesis, which is by far and away the best part of what is a rather pedestrian movie.

Ironic considering that movie introduced a dune buggy for the Enterprise crew just to have a car chase scene. And yet...

[Seppl]

A lot of them tend to be OK with good bits...like the battle scene at the end of Nemesis, which is by far and away the best part of what is a rather pedestrian movie.

That's rather faint praise, considering that movie was so awful, it turned me and others away from ever watching a Star Trek movie again. The only things I remember about the space battle is 10 minutes of bad CGI, and a lot of Hollywood tactics that don't make any sense.

[Peelee]

a lot of Hollywood tactics that don't make any sense.

There's this book in the old Star Wars EU, Legends now, called Jedi Trial. It was written by two authors, one of them a former Lance Corporal in the Marines, and the other a former Sergeant Major in the Army.

They drew heavily upon their military experience, and in that, they taught me an invaluable lesson. You can have good tactics, or you can have an entertaining story. "Neither" is, of course, an option, but is not really relevant to the point I'm making.

[russdm]

There's this book in the old Star Wars EU, Legends now, called Jedi Trial. It was written by two authors, one of them a former Lance Corporal in the Marines, and the other a former Sergeant Major in the Army.

They drew heavily upon their military experience, and in that, they taught me an invaluable lesson. You can have good tactics, or you can have an entertaining story. "Neither" is, of course, an option, but is not really relevant to the point I'm making.

my memory of that particular book is that it was written to cancel out some of the stuff from the jedi academy trilogy

[factotum]

That's rather faint praise, considering that movie was so awful, it turned me and others away from ever watching a Star Trek movie again. The only things I remember about the space battle is 10 minutes of bad CGI, and a lot of Hollywood tactics that don't make any sense.

I thought the CGI was fine. Tactics, well, yes, there were clearly moments when the writers forgot this was in space and there's a third dimension to worry about--like the bit where the Enterprise fires phasers in all directions around it, but only on what would be the horizon if it were a water-borne ship, and somehow manages to hit the Scimitar regardless--but it was at least entertaining. Which is more than can be said for most of that movie.

(Speaking of which...how many people got killed because they were asleep in their quarters in the front part of the saucer when Picard rammed the Scimitar? We kind of never hear about that. Heck, he never even gave an order to evacuate the forward part of the ship, just told the crew to brace themselves!).

[Seppl]

There's this book in the old Star Wars EU, Legends now, called Jedi Trial. It was written by two authors, one of them a former Lance Corporal in the Marines, and the other a former Sergeant Major in the Army.

They drew heavily upon their military experience, and in that, they taught me an invaluable lesson. You can have good tactics, or you can have an entertaining story. "Neither" is, of course, an option, but is not really relevant to the point I'm making.

It is a fictional scenario, so you can make work whatever you want, but what I mostly meant, that it did not make any sense internally, nor with existing canon. Which is bad for storytelling because it makes the audience drop their suspension of disbelief when your story does not follow its own rules. I don't want to go into too much detail because I do not want to re-watch it but the whole finale, ramming the other ship, is just bad:

1. Did Picard just casually kill hundreds of his own? I can see it was a desperate situation, but not even an evacuation order? There was plenty of time. Is the saucer not the part where the living quarters are? Where all the non-combat personnel should be at that time?
2. Were we not to pretend that the ships being in knife-fight range to each other was just cinematic effect and not real? Was it not always the case that everything actually happens thousands of kilometers apart? The whole finale makes no sense unless you tell me the engagement range of future space warships is actually less than a guy with a pistol.
3. The worst offender: The whole premise does not work! The Romulan ship still has reasonably strong shields at that point, they explicitly call out that fact and give it as the reason why no other options would work. Where were those shields when they rammed into it? Are we to assume that ships can just pass through shields? Then why can't a torpedo? Why was this never ever used before or after? This is like the lightspeed-ramming in The Last Jedi, as it makes everyone in canon look stupid for never considering this option, if it is an option. Surely would have been handy to stop the Borg by just ramming some old vessel full of explosives through their shields! (Yes, I know Riker considers this as an action of last resort in The Best of Both Worlds, but he also knows that it will almost assuredly fail).

[factotum]

Were we not to pretend that the ships being in knife-fight range to each other was just cinematic effect and not real? Was it not always the case that everything actually happens thousands of kilometers apart? The whole finale makes no sense unless you tell me the engagement range of future space warships is actually less than a guy with a pistol.

Well, you can see in the shot where the Enterprise starts its run toward the Scimitar that yes, the ships are at most a kilometre or two apart at that point. Unfortunately, you can blame Nicholas Meyer for that--he decided that he wanted the combat scenes in Wrath of Khan to be like submarines fighting each other, so he had the ships be close together at their first encounter because they were believed friendly, then put them in a nebula that severely restricted how far they could see for the final fight. Later Star Trek, both TV and movies, used the same close-quarters combat approach without any of the justifications used for it to make sense in Wrath of Khan.

Having said that, spaceship combat occurring at ranges where both vessels are together in the frame is hardly specific to Star Trek, it's been commonplace for years--just look at the WW1 dogfighting the ships in "Star Wars" participate in! It happens so much that when a series attempts to do anything different (e.g. the battle of Gorash VII in "Babylon 5", where the enemy forces are never visible at the same time) it's uncommon enough to be noteworthy.

[Manga Shoggoth]

...he decided that he wanted the combat scenes in Wrath of Khan to be like submarines fighting each other, so he had the ships be close together at their first encounter because they were believed friendly, then put them in a nebula that severely restricted how far they could see for the final fight. Later Star Trek, both TV and movies, used the same close-quarters combat approach without any of the justifications used for it to make sense in Wrath of Khan.

And, as I remember, they also played explicitly on Khan being used to a two-dimensional (ish) battlefield so deliberately going going up and over (or under - I can't recall) to confuse him.

[KillianHawkeye]

I assume there aren't a lot of people sleeping when the ship is at battle stations. Off-duty personnel and civilians are probably sheltering in a secure part of the ship. Even if people did die, at this point Picard is basically willing to sacrifice his entire ship and crew to save Earth and all the other planets Shinzon is planning to annihilate.

As for shields, I don't think they've ever been shown to be strong enough to stop something as large as an entire starship. And while the Scimitar is about twice the size of the Enterprise, the same tactic wouldn't work on a Borg cube because they're insanely large by comparison and famously have no vital areas (except when Picard needs to destroy one fast in First Contact, but he has Borg cheat codes).

[factotum]

Even if people did die, at this point Picard is basically willing to sacrifice his entire ship and crew to save Earth and all the other planets Shinzon is planning to annihilate.

the same tactic wouldn't work on a Borg cube because they're insanely large by comparison and famously have no vital areas (except when Picard needs to destroy one fast in First Contact, but he has Borg cheat codes).

Well, regarding the first point, he didn't even *attempt* to order people out of the front of the ship, despite having plenty of time to do so. And even on a warship--which Starfleet ships are explicitly generally not--you expect some of the crew to be asleep at any particular time because it's not their shift? People don't function well without sleep, this has been known for a very long time even in our own time period.

On the second point, if First Contact is anything to go by then ramming is totally a tactic that *would* work on a Borg cube, or else Worf wouldn't have ordered the Defiant to ramming speed when its weapons were taken out. Or at the very least, *he* believed it would work.

[Peelee]

On the second point, if First Contact is anything to go by then ramming is totally a tactic that *would* work on a Borg cube, or else Worf wouldn't have ordered the Defiant to ramming speed when its weapons were taken out. Or at the very least, *he* believed it would work.

That would be a nearly unassailable point if it were anyone else. Worf has Klingon honor - not as much as those raised in Klingon society, of course, but today is still a good day to die. When the Defiant has no more weapons, the Defiant itself is a weapon. At least, for a Klingon.

[hamishspence]

Worf has Klingon honor - not as much as those raised in Klingon society, of course, but today is still a good day to die.

I got the impression that Worf was more honourable than the typical Klingon - due to not being raised among them, he takes 'being honourable' to extreme lengths - overcompensating - whereas the average Klingon is more willing to compromise on a lot of things.

[Peelee]

I got the impression that Worf was more honourable than the typical Klingon - due to not being raised among them, he takes 'being honourable' to extreme lengths - overcompensating - whereas the average Klingon is more willing to compromise on a lot of things.

Possibly. He seemed less readily suicidal at being inconvenienced, but I may be misremembering.

[Gnoman]

you expect some of the crew to be asleep at any particular time because it's not their shift?

Not in combat. Crew quarters were one of the areas specifically not armored in the old days because any time you might have shells hitting them, they'd be empty.

[KillianHawkeye]

Please try to stay asleep when the sirens and flashing red lights are going non-stop and let me know how it goes.

"All hands on deck" is a phrase for a reason.

[Kantaki]

Please try to stay asleep when the sirens and flashing red lights are going non-stop and let me know how it goes.

You haven't heard my alarm.
But seriously, if I'm tired enough I will sleep through the end of the world or turn around and go back to sleep if I somehow do wake up.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't make it into Starfleet though.

[tomandtish]

And, as I remember, they also played explicitly on Khan being used to a two-dimensional (ish) battlefield so deliberately going going up and over (or under - I can't recall) to confuse him.

Important to note that they make that comment.... and then completely undo it by coming up to his level behind him before attacking. There was nothing stopping them from attacking him from 'below". So even while acknowledging the issue they then ignore it.

[Peelee]

Important to note that they make that comment.... and then completely undo it by coming up to his level behind him before attacking. There was nothing stopping them from attacking him from 'below". So even while acknowledging the issue they then ignore it.

It may have been intentional in case their attack failed for whatever reason. They could try to pull it off again, which would be harder if he was then expecting it.

Of course, they never say any of that, so I don't give them much credit and I agree with you, but that's a possible justification in-universe.

[factotum]

The thing that always puzzled me about that scene was--the bit on the bridge after the Enterprise rises up behind the Reliant makes it quite clear they don't know exactly where Khan is. But the Enterprise was turning as is came up and ended up facing in the right direction to see the enemy. So how did it do that? Sheer luck?

As for that not really making sense in a 3D battle, like I said, Nick Meyer wanted it to work like a battle between submarines, including the Enterprise "submerging" to hide from Khan and then rising up again to torpedo him! The things that annoyed me about it were mainly (a) they completely wasted a phaser blast because it hit one of the Reliant's warp nacelles, which then got blown completely off by the subsequent torpedo, and (b) despite all the weapons hits being on parts of the ship about as far from the bridge as it's possible to get, it still managed to fatally wound Khan himself.

[DigoDragon]

On the second point, if First Contact is anything to go by then ramming is totally a tactic that *would* work on a Borg cube, or else Worf wouldn't have ordered the Defiant to ramming speed when its weapons were taken out. Or at the very least, *he* believed it would work.

If nothing else, a large mass like the Defiant hitting the cube at a significant fraction of c using impulse engines would leave a sizable hole in the cube. The kinetic energy of such impacts are pretty large.

[Seppl]

If nothing else, a large mass like the Defiant hitting the cube at a significant fraction of c using impulse engines would leave a sizable hole in the cube. The kinetic energy of such impacts are pretty large.

But it does not make sense in universe. Why do they have any other weapons or use this more often? If the humble impulse drive is able to generate so much energy as to make a difference to Borg defenses, then strap that fuel to a torpedo! Clearly it is must more potent than antimatter or whatever they put into the regular warheads.

With Worf in Fist Contact I can see the ramming order excused as "a Klingon thing". Also makes sense as no other ships are doing it, and we don't actually see it working.

With Nemesis I can see no excuse at it is actually working when it should not.

[Poldon]

But it does not make sense in universe. Why do they have any other weapons or use this more often? If the humble impulse drive is able to generate so much energy as to make a difference to Borg defenses, then strap that fuel to a torpedo! Clearly it is must more potent than antimatter or whatever they put into the regular warheads.

It's not just a matter of the impulse drive's acceleration, but rather a combination of mass and acceleration. A starship is several orders of magnitude more massive than a torpedo, and thus would generate a more forceful impact on collision. Add to this the antimatter reserves on a starship, and you have a very energetic impact.

Spoiler: Spoiler for "The Doomsday Machine," TOS

Show

And as for in-universe use, I would say it goes all the way back to "The Doomsday Machine" of the Original Series, when Commodore Decker flies the Constellation into the eponymous planet eater to destroy it.

Correction: Kirk orders this, after Decker tries it with a shuttlecraft.

[Seppl]

It's not just a matter of the impulse drive's acceleration, but rather a combination of mass and acceleration. A starship is several orders of magnitude more massive than a torpedo, and thus would generate a more forceful impact on collision. Add to this the antimatter reserves on a starship, and you have a very energetic impact.

Still, the impulse engine can generate in a few seconds the energy necessary to punch through Romulan/Borg shields, when hours of constant barrage from dedicated weapon systems (some of them powered by the anti-matter warp core, others bringing their own dedicated anti-matter charge) had virtually no effect? The shields that are also powered by reactors capable of supplying warp-energy? You cannot really argue with real world physics because that is not how Star Trek miracle technology operates. Within the Star Trek miracle technology it makes no sense at all for the tiny backup drive to be this powerful a weapon, and if it were this powerful it makes no sense why nobody else ever uses this power. The combat section of the separated Enterprise-D does not even have impulse power. Clearly, those ship designers were missing something important! Maybe they got the separation process backwards, and the real intent was to smash the impulse driven saucer into the enemy and still have a warp drive to fly home with?

Spoiler: Spoiler for "The Doomsday Machine," TOS

Show

And as for in-universe use, I would say it goes all the way back to "The Doomsday Machine" of the Original Series, when Commodore Decker flies the Constellation into the eponymous planet eater to destroy it.

Correction: Kirk orders this, after Decker tries it with a shuttlecraft.

Wait, but they did not use ramming, they blew up the whole reactor! The "ramming" was only used to bring the reactor to the vulnerable spot.

[hamishspence]

The combat section of the separated Enterprise-D does not even have impulse power.

Sure it does. It flies at sublight speed as well as in warp - that's done with an impulse engine. The red rectangle at the "base of the neck" - that's the engineering hull's impulse engine.