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  1. - Top - End - #811
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    i have watched from "brothers" to "reunion" and will be starting the episode after "reunion". i will get the reviews up, but here is my ratings)

    brothers -- 3

    suddenly human -- 3

    remember me -- 2

    legacy -- 3

    reunion -- 5
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  2. - Top - End - #812
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    i have watched from "brothers" to "reunion" and will be starting the episode after "reunion". i will get the reviews up, but here is my ratings)

    brothers -- 3

    suddenly human -- 3

    remember me -- 2

    legacy -- 3

    reunion -- 5
    Reunion IMO is great by virtue of K'Ehleyr, who does an awesome job, and then the ending is unsatisfying, because they kill her offscreen just so Worf can swear boring vengeance. She was a lot more interesting for the worldbuilding alive and flaunting Klingon norms. TNG was the poorer for relegating her to "generic dead loved one" status.

  3. - Top - End - #813
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Brothers
    Stardate: 44085.7

    [Plot]
    plot happens when Data has an episode. He takes the ship to where he meets his creator. Lore shows up too
    plot happens thingie. also Data seized control of the ship so the crew are figuring out what they can do
    Data and Lore talk and dr. soong talks. Data is to get a chip that will allow him to experience basic emotions. Lore is not pleased
    Lore kills dr. soong. Data says goodbye to his creator
    plot happens is fixed

    [Rating]
    3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

    {Episode Commentary}
    yeah this could have been better. mostly if the story about the kids and how one of them ate some really bad fruit
    it exists solely to give the line, "Brothers forgive". a line that they could have gotten without having such a dire circumstance. really think that the kid should have just broken a leg and it would have worked

    the stuff between data and lore and soong were really good and pretty much the only thing to watch this episode for

    So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on


    Suddenly Human
    Stardate: 44143.7

    [Plot]
    the crew help out pirates then leave the found human kid with the pirates
    [Rating]
    3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

    {Episode Commentary}
    yeah, i don't know what the point of this episode was. it has picard doing some bonding with a kid but they could have done that another way.

    i don't agree with picard's decision in this episode. the kid was taken by a guy of the race that killed his parents and was not there to be rescued by humans. his entire place there is because he was taken captive, kidnapped

    is TNG really going with the aesop of how if you were taken by some people and raised by them or a kidnapper, you should stay with them because you feel that you are one as opposed to your real family? the kid has only known what he has because he was kidnapped. he was not adopted like Worf

    the only reason that endar lost his son is because it was a war caused by endar and his people. the federation has not been shown to start wars on others as far as I know

    So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

    Remember Me
    Stardate: 44161.2

    [Plot]
    dr. Crusher and technobabble pool
    [Rating]
    2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)

    {Episode Commentary}
    yeah, so I don't care enough about the doctor to have cared about what happens. this episode is completely skippable

    this episode was an attempt to make the viewer care about the doctor but it goes poorly. they needed an episode more like Babylon 5's Gropos, which made dr. Franklin likable, then this garbage

    had crusher died, it would have been no loss to the show

    So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

    Legacy
    Stardate: 44215.2

    [Plot]
    the crew visit tasha yar's home planet to rescue some guys and encounter a person
    [Rating]
    3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.

    {Episode Commentary}
    so this episode has yar's show up and the crew interact with her. there is the fact that the colony failed too. does have some good Data emotion

    i think that this is a nice concept but we don't end up visiting any other failed Federation colonies. that is a disappointment.
    So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

    Reunion
    Stardate: 44246.3

    [Plot]
    the crew encounter the head klingon who wants picard to determine who poisoned him. also the two showing up to became the next head klingon are Duras and Gowron. Also Worf's gal, K, shows up with a kid in tow. They made a Targ.

    Worf gets to meet his son, Alexander, while Duras and Gowron spar. Picard gets "volunteered" to arbratite(SP?) the succession for becoming Head Klingon. Naturally, during a ceremony, a bomb goes off. the bomb had Romulan help

    Picard goes for doing a rather more convoluted version of the ritual thingie, so the two hopefuls for Head Klingon spend time hamming it up some. Well, Gowron does. The more convoluted version is simply an older version, but as Picard is being basically the referee before Duras and Gowron try to stab each other, Picard gets to do whatever method he wants. Sadly, not some kind of space chess. It is just about designating who the combatants will be.

    Naturally, the bomb and it's romulan help is found out. Cue Gowron's fun eyebrows. Worf, being the security Klingon, snarks at both Duras and Gowron over the bomb stuff

    The doc does something actually useful, and determines that the bomb was carried around by a guy working for Duras. That just means that Duras tried to blow them up.

    Gowron tries to convince K to spend things along, since K has been advising Picard how to play Klingon Chaplain. Gowron offers K stuff and threats, the usual Klingon conversation style. K chews out Gowron, who is impressed.

    Picard is honestly no closer to figuring out who poisoned the head Klingon, K-empec. K becomes interested to know more about Worf's dishonor thing, since K wants to take the oath and make Worf a family man.

    K investigates and attracts Duras who decides to confront her about that. K basically tells off Duras for being a schmuck. So, Duras, in one of his most stupid moments, kills her.

    Worf finds K dying and learns that Duras did it. so, Worf goes over and challenges Duras, then kills him. The klingons leave, for the time being

    Picard reprimands Worf for killing Duras. Worf plans to get the Klingon high council to stop lying about Mogh being a traitor.

    Worf sends Alexander to leave with Worf's adopted parents, as a way of giving Alexander a home. Given what the Enterprise encounters, that was a smart move really.

    [Rating]
    5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on

    {Episode Commentary}
    I really love this episode but I am disappointed by they used Worf's girl. would have been a nice character to see more. however, something is necessary to push Worf to kill Duras. shame about the character

    It is left up to the viewer to decide who poisoned K-empec. Both Duras and Gowron are options.

    Personally though, I think that it was actually K-empec is the one who did it. It would have been easy for him to find out if it was one of the two. Plus, he could have easily set it up as a way of redeeming himself for selling out for Duras, in regards to Worf and Mogh. Plus, he can get Picard to be made decider-person through the poison act. In a normal way, K-empce would have just died, and that would have allowed Duras and Gowron to fight it out. Since K-empec was not sure of Gowron, but didn't have good trust in Duras, he needed to do something.

    Giving himself poison seems to be about the best way. Worf and Picard can handle Duras, and it wouldn't be too difficult for them to do something about Gowron. Plus, Picard will sign on, despite not wanting to do anything, which K-empec desperately needs to happen.

    of course, it could have been one or both, with K-empec not doing anything, but that feels a little bit of a let-down really.

    So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on


    Next Episode - "Future Imperfect"

    Trackers)
    Picard is wrong / Picard picks wrong: 1
    Starfleet is run by Morons: 1
    The Universe/Franchise shook and was changed: 3
    I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 3 (these episodes)
    Picard's Gifts: 2 (mind meld with Sarek)
    Prime Directive Hell: 1
    Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
    Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 2
    Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
    Poker Playing: 2
    Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
    Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
    Hidden Gems: 9
    Funny Guest Star Appearances: 11 ()
    Rank of Miles:
    Prime Directives: 3
    Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
    Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
    Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
    Pithy Aesops: 1
    Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies ; honor matters a great deal;
    Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
    Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
    Actually Alien Aliens: 2
    Lore's Appearances: 2
    *Data's Emotions: 4
    *Troi Troubles: 1
    *Money Matters: 1
    Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1
    Last edited by russdm; 2023-06-21 at 02:27 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #814
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    The showrunners have said that K'empec was poisoned by Duras, and it is really the explanation that makes the most sense. Gowron never acts dishonorably in that way, while the House of Duras as a whole repeatedly conspires with the sworn enemies of the Empire (the Romulan Star Empire) for the sake of power.

  5. - Top - End - #815
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    I don't remember a lot about Suddenly Human, mostly the part where the kid stabs Picard. I think there were at least a few bits in there about the tension felt by kids from one culture who were raised in another one. Not sure how nuanced or bad of a take they put on it, but it was memorable as the more reflective, philosophical style of TNG.

    My favorite part of Brothers is how Data just completely hijacks the entire ship in a matter of minutes. It's basically a mini-heist movie, and because there's no harm done at the end there's no reason for me to be annoyed as an audience member by a contrived-feeling threat.

    They probably should put in more Data-related safeguards though

  6. - Top - End - #816
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Meh, it's the E-D you can hijack it with a paperclip and two feet of twine, and the warp core goes critical if you give it a mean look.

  7. - Top - End - #817
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    yeah this could have been better. mostly if the story about the kids and how one of them ate some really bad fruit
    it exists solely to give the line, "Brothers forgive". a line that they could have gotten without having such a dire circumstance. really think that the kid should have just broken a leg and it would have worked
    A broken leg is not a serious medical issue to 24th century medicine. It's a five minute operation with a noninvasive zappy tool, get plenty of rest and you'll be fine tomorrow.

    For heightened drama, the boy's condition had to be something that couldn't be fixed on the ship, which is why Data hijacking the Enterprise is actually an issue. If nothing important was going on, then Data needing to go see his daddy would be just another day in Starfleet. But because the kid will die if he doesn't get to a starbase within N time units, it's suddenly a huge problem.

    The fact that they made the subplot about two brothers to contrast against Data's relationship with Lore is just good writing, IMO.

    There are plenty of episodes where the B Plot doesn't really have anything to do with the episode's main story, but when they really work together like in this episode or in Family, you get something a bit more special, I think.
    Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2023-06-22 at 12:17 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #818
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    They probably should put in more Data-related safeguards though
    They really should! I think there was another Data-esque hiking in the novel Federation, but in Data's defense he got taken over by a consciousness in that one.


    Remember Me had an interesting premise if nothing else. With a better execution it might of made a decently good horror episode. Instead we get The Traveler show up to mostly fix it.
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  9. - Top - End - #819
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    Remember Me had an interesting premise if nothing else. With a better execution it might of made a decently good horror episode. Instead we get The Traveler show up to mostly fix it.
    Except it's a great episode and the presence of the traveler in the last two minutes does nothing to diminish it.
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  10. - Top - End - #820
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    I thought that the vortex thingie was pretty good special effects for it's time.

    The episode itself is held back by being focused on the least interesting member of the crew, but also it probably wouldn't have worked with anyone else. Dr Crusher is the only main character who had family on board the ship to worry about going missing, and she's also the least likely to understand what's going on (in fact, she only figures it out because she remembers what Wesley was telling her earlier).

    I kind of enjoy the way she keeps trying to get people to understand how it doesn't make sense for the ship to be so big when there's like nobody on board, and they all just act like she's crazy or something.
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  11. - Top - End - #821
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    Remember Me
    Stardate: 44161.2

    [Plot]
    dr. Crusher and technobabble pool
    This is probably going to sound rude, and I truly do not mean it that way, but... why even include a plot section if you are going to do this? I get that you're squeezing a bunch of episodes into one post and all, but still, isn't the whole point of including a plot summary to, y'know, summarize the plot?

    Anyway, I thought this was a weird but fun episode. No particularly good character work here, but it's a fun and unique phenomenon that the crew hasn't encountered anything like before, and Dr. Crusher desperately needs stories that give her characterization beyond being the doctor and Wesley's mom. I'd give this one a 3/5 using your scale, personally.
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  12. - Top - End - #822
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Because its a Crusher episode and the OP hates Crusher, from what I understand.

  13. - Top - End - #823
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    A lot of the plot descriptions are incredibly barebones, though, often to just barely describing a few plot-relevant actions.
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  14. - Top - End - #824
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Honestly, just having multiple episode reviews in a single post means that a lot of discussions just get skipped because that's too much for people to respond to all at once, IMO.
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  15. - Top - End - #825
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bavarian itP View Post
    Except it's a great episode and the presence of the traveler in the last two minutes does nothing to diminish it.
    Well, the episode bar is a bit low, but I got nothing against The Traveler. Kinda wish they did more episodes with him to explore more of what he does and where he goes.
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  16. - Top - End - #826
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    To be honest, I don't exactly hate Crusher. I'm just not impressed with her yet.

    Remember me was a good chance to explore Crusher for us the viewers more but the writers went with the vortex whatever the heck it is. It doesn't tell me anything about Crusher because you could put in another character or one of the side characters and you would get mostly the same story.

    Anyone would be freaking out about how things were in the vortex for Crusher. That is not unique to her.

    To take some serious hate here, but I really feel that this should have been like the episode Gropos from Babylon 5 and for what it did for Dr. Franklin.

    Again the Traveler relates to Wesley and his story, not Crusher. So it makes this slightly about him.

    I blame the writers for not being able to yet figure out Crusher beyond being Wesley mom. She met her doctor friend, why couldn't we seen him and watch him interact with her?

    The episode could have gone with some history and personal history. It chose to go with a technobabble problem. I didn't care for that.

    Some plot descriptions are short because it is also based on what I remember. Full episode plots are at tvtropes and memory alpha.

    I posted a few reviews at once to avoid doing a quick series of multi posts. I would have been posting one after another.

    Remember Me could have been better.

    Of the characters so far, and based on learning about them, I think that I love, in order: Word, Data, Kurn, Kehyler(Worf's girl), Alexander, kmpec, Gowron, Duras, Picard, LaForge, the romulan admiral, troi, Wesley, broccoli, crusher
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  17. - Top - End - #827
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Do tribbles go on the list before or after broccoli?

    Wait never mind TNG didnt have a tribble episode.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2023-07-14 at 06:22 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #828
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Putting aside that Broccoli is criminally low, why no Riker?
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  19. - Top - End - #829
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Well I forgot about him... I think he falls after Crusher and then the red shirts and the one episode characters not mentioned.

    I would put guinan first in the list. Lady troi, Deanna mom, goes with Picard, after.

    We are going to get episodes with parts that expand on Crusher, making her more interesting.

    I really love the Klingons and Data, if you couldn't tell
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  20. - Top - End - #830
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    I find it interesting you rated Picard so low. Does he just not grab you as a character? Is it something specific?

    I ask because Picard (and Patrick Stewart's portrayal of him) is maybe 80% what draws me to TNG. Nobody exemplifies TNG's "diplomacy before fist-punches" vibe better, and he's the strongest through-line, the most consistently compelling character, and the emotional core of the show.

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    Some plot descriptions are short because it is also based on what I remember. Full episode plots are at tvtropes and memory alpha.
    No complaint from me. I appreciate one or two sentences of plot but don't really need a summary - the internet is chock-a-block full of TNG recap sources

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    We are going to get episodes with parts that expand on Crusher, making her more interesting.
    I'm sure these episodes exist but my brain is full of the only one that comes to mind, and it's a loooooong way until we get to the Scottish Sex Ghost Candle.

  21. - Top - End - #831
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I'm sure these episodes exist but my brain is full of the only one that comes to mind, and it's a loooooong way until we get to the Scottish Sex Ghost Candle.
    When I did my TNG re-watch a couple years ago I watched that one despite it not being on the "recommended" list. I wanted to see if that episode was as crazy as I remembered.

    It was way, wayyyyy crazier. I'm genuinely impressed that script got through the acception process, the review process, filming, editing, and more without somebody saying "What the heck are we doing?" and everybody snapping out of it like that one Wesley episode with stupid addictive videogame. Then again, that episode got made, soooooo....

    I love TNG, but that show got seriously weird at times.

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    When you have to make 26 weeks worth of episodes every season some of them are bound to skate in on the basis of "well if we don't do this one we need to think of something else..."

    This is probably why every series has its stock story. (Transporter malfunction/evil computer, holodeck malfunction, Ferengi shenanigans, and something unspeakable happens to Harry Kim, respectively)

  23. - Top - End - #833
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    This is probably why every series has its stock story. (Transporter malfunction/evil computer, holodeck malfunction, Ferengi shenanigans, and something unspeakable happens to Harry Kim, respectively)
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  24. - Top - End - #834
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    When I did my TNG re-watch a couple years ago I watched that one despite it not being on the "recommended" list. I wanted to see if that episode was as crazy as I remembered.

    It was way, wayyyyy crazier. I'm genuinely impressed that script got through the acception process, the review process, filming, editing, and more without somebody saying "What the heck are we doing?" and everybody snapping out of it like that one Wesley episode with stupid addictive videogame. Then again, that episode got made, soooooo....

    I love TNG, but that show got seriously weird at times.
    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    When you have to make 26 weeks worth of episodes every season some of them are bound to skate in on the basis of "well if we don't do this one we need to think of something else..."

    This is probably why every series has its stock story. (Transporter malfunction/evil computer, holodeck malfunction, Ferengi shenanigans, and something unspeakable happens to Harry Kim, respectively)
    No kidding. Most of the TV I watch could be described as tightly-controlled, meticulously-plotted, 10-13 episode miniseries. Running into shows with huge back catalogs like TNG or even Buffy has always thrown me for a loop, because there's so much to get through and even with great characters and a great setting, many episodes are forgettable. If you asked me to pare down TNG's episode list by half I would barely struggle. Most of the removed ones wouldn't be bad, they'd just be...well, padding.

    I wonder if there's a Conservation of Ninjutsu going on for TV shows, where if you try to stretch a show's plot beyond a certain number of installments you can technically do it, but it's going to thin the story out too much or condense all the emotional high points into certain spots, meaning you'll need "breather" episodes in between that just turn into padding.

  25. - Top - End - #835
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Yeah.

    I mean even shorter series these days seem to have trouble. The big problem of Discovery IMO was that they backload all the arc plot into the last 3-4 episodes of each series.

    And yeah long running serial shows need to have days off. There's a reason beyond just fanservice that anime shows invariably have the beach episode and the hot springs episode, you gotta wind down.

  26. - Top - End - #836
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Personally I miss 'padded' shows, and it's why I've been enjoying Strange New Worlds which has been a nice re-visit to that style. Tightly plotted shows live or die based on the quality of the over arching plot. If the plot goes off the rails it kills the whole thing even if some of the earlier setup might have been good. I've also found that just having one plot can lead to it feeling overly thin and stretched out for the sake of keeping that one plot going even with a shorter season. Look at that first season of Jessica Jones for an example and just how many times Kilgrave got captured, freed, and captured again to the point it got super silly. They can also just be exhausting where everything matters, all of the time.

    An episodic show though if it has one bad episode then it can have a great episode next week as it's so much more self contained.

  27. - Top - End - #837
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    No kidding. Most of the TV I watch could be described as tightly-controlled, meticulously-plotted, 10-13 episode miniseries. Running into shows with huge back catalogs like TNG or even Buffy has always thrown me for a loop, because there's so much to get through and even with great characters and a great setting, many episodes are forgettable. If you asked me to pare down TNG's episode list by half I would barely struggle. Most of the removed ones wouldn't be bad, they'd just be...well, padding.

    I wonder if there's a Conservation of Ninjutsu going on for TV shows, where if you try to stretch a show's plot beyond a certain number of installments you can technically do it, but it's going to thin the story out too much or condense all the emotional high points into certain spots, meaning you'll need "breather" episodes in between that just turn into padding.
    You can absolutely have longer plots with more than 10-12 episodes. Babylon 5 had 22 episodes per season, and while the first and second seasons were still partly episodic in nature, season 3 and 4 are basically pure plot for the whole run (we better don't talk about season 5). There are still episodes that are less important and others that are more important, but they all contribute. Of course there are still some bummers in there, but it goes to show that you don't necessarily have to condense down or pad a story if you're willing to plan it out well in advance (and can get the financing to do it, of course).
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    Out of the frying pan and into the friar!


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    Cutting-edge technology

  28. - Top - End - #838
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaln View Post
    You can absolutely have longer plots with more than 10-12 episodes. Babylon 5 had 22 episodes per season, and while the first and second seasons were still partly episodic in nature, season 3 and 4 are basically pure plot for the whole run (we better don't talk about season 5). There are still episodes that are less important and others that are more important, but they all contribute. Of course there are still some bummers in there, but it goes to show that you don't necessarily have to condense down or pad a story if you're willing to plan it out well in advance (and can get the financing to do it, of course).
    I like looking at Star Trek: TNG, Star Trek: DS9, and Babylon 5 to compare how they handled episode structure.

    TNG was entirely episodic. They very occasionally had a "state change" to the universe like the rise of the Cardassians as a major power, but mostly they stayed purely episodic. This worked very well for TNG on the whole as it allowed them to focus on individual episodes. Out of all Star Trek I think TNG has the highest number of great episodes. However, the lack of continuity did cause major dissonance over time. Picard doesn't read as traumatized by his Borg experience except the occasional times that he does, and even then that was mostly in First Contact. Geordi never seems to remember that he got brainwashed, and the fact that his visor was hacked is forgotten about so badly that it gets hacked again in Generations and results in the destruction of the Enterprise. The episodic nature of TNG makes it great for picking up re-runs or going back and watching your favorite episodes, but it also hurts the overall story.

    DS9 starts episodic but slowly brings in more serialized stories, until season 7 is almost entirely serialized. This works great for the most part, as we get a complex multi-season story arc for the first time in Star Trek history. Unfortunately, the writers were still stuck in "sweeps week" thinking and the advancement of the plot is horribly disjointed. The Dominion destroy a Galaxy class starhip at the end of season 2 and the two-part opener to Season 3 heavily deals with them. And then, the plot just kind of...forgets about them. For the rest of the season. The same is generally true for most of DS9's run - there will be a big 2 parter or season finale that irrevocably changes the state of the galaxy, and then the show returns to episodic Star Trek and doesn't advance the main story for the bulk of the season. It's very frustrating. When it does go full serial, they don't really have the technique down. The episodes start bleeding into each other without any structure - when I watched on Netflix a particular set was listed as a seven parter. There's a lot of good story in there, but it arrives at the cost of episodic structure and watching the episodes back to back is a very weird experience.

    Babylon 5 has the best blend I've ever seen. Seasons 1 and 2 are episodic, but they are episodic in very different ways. Season 1 is very Star Trek-like - there is a problem, our heroes work at it, and then the day is saved. Season 2 has a similar structure, but in this case the heroes aren't winning completely. There is a strong feeling of events spiraling out of control, and while the episodes are episodic the universe is moving forward. A war starts between the Narn and the Centauri. The invisible hand of the Shadows is everywhere, pulling strings behind the scenes. It's episodic, but season 2 does a lot of work setting up the serialized storytelling to come. Season 3 slips neatly into a mix of episodic and serialized storytelling - nearly every episode advances the main plot either through the A plot or the B plot. Even bad episodes like "Grey 13 is missing" contain valuable character and world building. Then finally with Season 4 we blast into full serialized storytelling, abandoning the episodic stories entirely. It's a bit rushed (as they were told they were getting canceled), but it works very well all the same. Season 5 then falls on its face because it isn't setting up for future events in the same way as the earlier seasons - they were running on fumes and it showed.

    The big cost for Babylon 5 was that its filler stories couldn't really keep up with Star Trek. Star Trek does that kind of storytelling better, particularly TNG. There are very few standalone episodes that work, with the best probably being Passing Through Gesthamane. The rest read like rejected Star Trek scripts, which at least some of them probably were. Season 1 is considered weak for a reason, and the same problem afflicts season 5 after JMS had told the story he wanted to tell and was left with a handful of plot threads to wrap up across an entire season.

  29. - Top - End - #839
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I find it interesting you rated Picard so low. Does he just not grab you as a character? Is it something specific?

    I ask because Picard (and Patrick Stewart's portrayal of him) is maybe 80% what draws me to TNG. Nobody exemplifies TNG's "diplomacy before fist-punches" vibe better, and he's the strongest through-line, the most consistently compelling character, and the emotional core of the show.
    At this point in the series, honestly....

    no, i don't find Picard that interesting. we are still away from the ones that help with Picard. the episodes (intro us to Cardies; the one with the alien dna; vash robin hood one if we haven't got there; commando Picard; darmok; the klingon colony; the klingon civil war; the inner light - flute one; lessons; tapestry; ensign ro; Picard as a kid; gambit;

    we need to get away Gene's super inhuman humans first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I'm sure these episodes exist but my brain is full of the only one that comes to mind, and it's a loooooong way until we get to the Scottish Sex Ghost Candle.
    i am deeply offended that this is the first one that comes to mind. very deeply offended.

    what about the episode where crusher is teaching data how to tap dance or dance? what about the episode where crusher plays commando? what about the episode where crusher tells troi about how crusher likes being a off time bridge officer and so encourages troi to pursue that herself?

    i am very deeply offended over the ghost one

    regarding crusher)

    we know that she is a woman, we know that she is a mother, we know that she is a widow. we know that she is a doctor and chief medical officer. this is what we know going into the episode Remember Me

    but what drives her and motivates her?

    what do we know about her at the end of the episode? the same as what we came in with and no more. we still have "but what drives her and motivates her?

    let me describe a few women who all share the same traits with crusher but they have a different career and place. see how many each of you can guess before peeking in the spoiler. Note, all are real famous women. This also tells you nothing about their personality. some multiple answers can apply

    1) She is/was a pretty big boss, a Chief. She served in the military. She works/worked in a castle...

    2) She was an important leader, a chief. she worked/lived in a castle...

    3) she was an important leader, military guys worked for her, she worked/lived in a castle....

    4) she was an important leader, military guys worked for her, she worked/lived in a castle....

    5) she was an important leader, military guys worked for her, she worked/lived in a castle...

    6) she was an important figure, a chief. She worked/lived in a castle....


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    1) Queen Elizabeth the Second
    2) Queen Sibylla or Queen Victoria or Eleanor of Aquitane
    3) Queen Anne or Queen Victoria
    4) Catherine the Great or Queen Victoria
    5) Marie Therese or Queen Victoria
    6) Victoria, Daughter of Queen Victoria or Queen Elizabeth II's Mother


    How many did you get?
    Last edited by russdm; 2023-07-21 at 10:58 PM.
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  30. - Top - End - #840
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    The big cost for Babylon 5 was that its filler stories couldn't really keep up with Star Trek. Star Trek does that kind of storytelling better, particularly TNG. There are very few standalone episodes that work, with the best probably being Passing Through Gesthamane. The rest read like rejected Star Trek scripts, which at least some of them probably were. Season 1 is considered weak for a reason, and the same problem afflicts season 5 after JMS had told the story he wanted to tell and was left with a handful of plot threads to wrap up across an entire season.
    Season 1 of SF shows is always bad.

    There's a reason for that, and it's because all the investment on stuff like sets that will persist throughout the entire run has to be spent all at once in season 1 so there's a lot less room for extra spending to punch up individual episodes.

    (And B5's budget was about half the size of most other TV shows at the time, even one-season-wonders like Space Above and Beyond)

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