New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

[Trixie_One]

Season 1 of SF shows is always bad.

Off the top of my head and not counting spin offs, both Killjoys and BSG started with their best seasons. Farscape has a couple of duds but generally it's a really strong first effort. Not my own cup of tea but Firefly fans seemed to think their season 1 was pretty good.

[Ionathus]

Not my own cup of tea but Firefly fans seemed to think their season 1 was pretty good.

Yeah the first season was great. Too bad the last season sucked.

[russdm]

Regarding Babylon 5)))

Honestly I'm got mixed feelings. It takes too much time to set up the metaplot and then it dumps that same metaplot.

The first and/or second season had the raiders who actually did very little raiding. They feature in a couple of episodes, one of which is them getting trounced by the Shadows to show off the Shadows bogeyman.

But the set up is terrible because we don't get much of any from the raiders, so when they go pop-pop, it is essentially meaningless. The raiders produce no stakes and so there is no reason to care what happened to them. Nor does any concern exist about who took them.

The Shadows are working through heavily used Implied Attribute - Precursors and their threat is not very made clear. The entire Shadows war is all off screen and so might as well be a bunch of minibari hallucinations.

The Narnia Centauri war is given actual gravity and we are always seeing Narnia showing up on the station in many episodes so there is a feeling that something is happening offscreen.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure that Babylon 5 gets overhyped with all about its great metaplot and arcs and etc, when it barely manages even one or two of them with any actual skill.

Those arcs are the Narn Centauri War and Londo's Arc through the show. The raiders arc is done crappy, the Shadows Arc is done crappy, the vice president assassin guy is done crappy, the Besker telepath Mars thing Garibaldi Mars is done crappy; the Dr Franklin drug addiction and walk about is done mediocre.

Londo's Arc is the best done and the Narn Centauri War is the same. The rest is really just mediocre and poor at times.

I tried to rewatch Babylon 5 thanks to Yora's Babylon 5 thread before I just gave up because I stopped caring about finding out what happened next and also realizing that the show is actually pretty bad. And I was along in the second season too, actually I got into season 3

[Morgaln]

Regarding Babylon 5)))

Honestly I'm got mixed feelings. It takes too much time to set up the metaplot and then it dumps that same metaplot.

The first and/or second season had the raiders who actually did very little raiding. They feature in a couple of episodes, one of which is them getting trounced by the Shadows to show off the Shadows bogeyman.

But the set up is terrible because we don't get much of any from the raiders, so when they go pop-pop, it is essentially meaningless. The raiders produce no stakes and so there is no reason to care what happened to them. Nor does any concern exist about who took them.

The Shadows are working through heavily used Implied Attribute - Precursors and their threat is not very made clear. The entire Shadows war is all off screen and so might as well be a bunch of minibari hallucinations.

The Narnia Centauri war is given actual gravity and we are always seeing Narnia showing up on the station in many episodes so there is a feeling that something is happening offscreen.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure that Babylon 5 gets overhyped with all about its great metaplot and arcs and etc, when it barely manages even one or two of them with any actual skill.

Those arcs are the Narn Centauri War and Londo's Arc through the show. The raiders arc is done crappy, the Shadows Arc is done crappy, the vice president assassin guy is done crappy, the Besker telepath Mars thing Garibaldi Mars is done crappy; the Dr Franklin drug addiction and walk about is done mediocre.

Londo's Arc is the best done and the Narn Centauri War is the same. The rest is really just mediocre and poor at times.

I tried to rewatch Babylon 5 thanks to Yora's Babylon 5 thread before I just gave up because I stopped caring about finding out what happened next and also realizing that the show is actually pretty bad. And I was along in the second season too, actually I got into season 3

I have to disagree with several of your points:

The raiders aren't even meant to have a story arc. They're an early "bandits in the woods" kind of threat. They also get eliminated right in the middle of season 1, they never were meant to be meaningful or impactful. Signs and Portents, which eliminates them, isn't notable because the raiders are gone. It's notable because Mr Morden shows up and gets connections to Londo in that episode, and because we get our first glimpse of a shadow vessel. It's threatening because of multiple reasons: it is completely new and mysterious; no one knows what this even is. It takes out the big raider ship with a single shot. And it doesn't even need a jump point (let alone a jump gate), so it could just show up anywhere at any time without warning. These are not implied attributes, they get shown very clearly.

The Shadows aren't working through implied attributes. They are working through proxies and manipulation. They are directly responsible for the rise of power of both Londo and William Morgan Clark, and thus for all the bad things that result from these. They are shown to have ties to the PsiCorp, which acts as secondary antagonist for our human protagonists throughout the show. We also get to see that they have the power to rip through the ships of the younger races no less than three times in battles against the Narn (Chrysalis, The Coming of Shadows and The Long, Twilight Shadow).

During the Shadow war, we have a number of on-screen engagements. Matters of Honor sees the protagonists facing off against a Shadow vessel directly for the first time. Interludes and Examinations has a fight between the Shadows and the Vorlons. And of course Shadow Dancing is a huge battle between the allied forces and the Shadows. That list is not exhaustive, not even just for Season 3. In addition, we get to see the humanitarian effects of the Shadow war constantly while it is going on. Often just in the background, but it is there nonetheless. The war is constantly there, even when it is only represented by Ivanova giving status updates on the air.

You're also forgetting about the other major plot of the show, which is Earth's descent into fascism. That plot is more relevant than ever these days and the way it shows how democratic rights can be undermined through small steps is pretty well done. Both the way Nightwatch is portrayed and the media is used is very poignant. Incidentally, what I would consider the best episodes mostly deal with this plot, not the Shadow war (special mention of Severed Dreams here).

I agree that Franklin's parts throughout the show are mediocre at best, but then he's never as important as any of the other protagonists, really. I also agree that Londo's arc is excellent, alongside G'Kar (it helps that Peter Jurasik and Andreas Katsulas are the best actors in the show by far).


As you can probably tell, I'm a big fan of the show. I don't expect you to like it, that's absolutely your decision. But I won't let you call it crap based on things that are demonstrably not true.

[russdm]

Stuff

All of what you said would have meaning if not for the fact, none of that happens!!!
>>>>
the Nightwatch appear towards the end of the first season only a couple of episodes before the season finale. That is all played with by Garibaldi's henchman, Zach.

As for Clark, it takes a couple of seasons (season 3) for anything related to his stuff and his making Earth-whatever go all fascist to appear and start on the path. He is pretty much forgotten about in season 2
>>>>>
What proxies? What manipulation?

I can count exactly three people who Mr Morden manipulates for the Shadows: Londo, Refa, Clark or whoever is in that single shot. Vir rejects Morden; G'Kar doesn't have whatever Morden needs. The minibari, delenn, don't even listen.

The emperor Carty/agia was not a Shadows puppet, but Refa's. The Centauri are the only proxies until those things that are attached to Londo show up.

Also, the bulk of stuff is being done by the Centauri anyway. Why do we need the Shadows?
>>>>>

The show, and you, is telling us that the Shadows are supposed to be Palpatine Level Chessmasters. Nothing in the show actually shows that. Getting the Centauri involved, is one race/species. The Clark Shadows thing barely shows up.

I would have loved more with Morden doing that manipulation and else because it would have been really nice to see.
>>>>

The Shadows war has little to no meaning to me because I don't care enough about the aliens affected. The Narn had G'Kar in there to make feels, which worked. There was nothing of the sort for the Shadows war.

[Rodin]

All I get from that post is that you weren't paying attention.

Clark expands his influence throughout the entire second season. Sheridan is explicitly a mole working for the anti-Clark faction throughout season 2, including an entire episode dedicated to Clark's doctor being on the run. The climax of season 2 is heavily focused on how Clark's government is turning to fascism and the Nightwatch is turning into StateSec.

The Shadows had bases throughout the galaxy. The lack of organized response to the Centauri expansion due to meddling by the Shadows (either by threats or by members of the League having their own Shadow bases) is explicitly called out. If the Centauri were the only proxies of the Shadows, why the heck were there Vorlon planet killers going around eradicating planets with population in the billions?

Cartagia was installed by Refa, but Refa quickly lost control of him because Cartagia was off his rocker. Refa didn't invite the Shadows to have a base on Centauri Prime - Cartagia did because he believed the Shadows would elevate him to godhood.

Honestly, this post reads like you watched the show with headphones on listening to music and no subtitles. It's not even wrong, it's a description of a different show from the one I watched.

[russdm]

Yeah, I forgot quite a bit then. What I do recall most though is not having an emotional connection with the war against the Shadows or the Stuff with Clark.

I had an emotional connection with the Narn thanks to G'Kar.

My memory, which may be seriously hazy, of events were:
Pre-show)
Sheridan's wife joins a ship that goes to za'doom and Morden is on board. Accident happened, Shadows wake up
Something that relates to Sinclair and minibari

Show season 1)
B5 station, Sinclair is in charge, Garibaldi shows up. The others do
The Raiders start doing some raiding
Morden goes to the station and talks to peoples. Delenn blows him off, kosh has words, G'kar lacks what Morden needs, Londo gives Morden the Answer
Techomages
Raiders gonna raid
Londo finds some sacred Centauri artifact, Eye. He acquires it and gets it to go home for a big PR boost. Raiders steal the Eye, Londo is facing a major PR disaster. Morden says that he can help, Londo blows Morden off for wasting time and taking Londo for a fool.
Morden has the Shadows get the Eye, and gives it Londo. This saves Londo. Morden asks Vir what Vir wants, gets the hand wave Answer.
Londo is getting involved with the Shadows, who are giving Londo nice PR shine back home??? Londo is becoming more popular and likable
Nightwatch or guy that works for Garibaldi as traitor. Shoots Garibaldi. The president ship blows up - season finale
At some point, b4 shows up and goes through time. Zathras

Show season 2)
Clark becomes president, Sheridan takes command.
Tensions go on between Narn and Centauri. Narn attack some Centauri place??
More Tension
Garibaldi wakes up, forgot about traitor
Morden makes a few requests of Londo, about anybody asking questions about ghosts?? Shadows??
G'Kar decides to go exploring for something in his holy book, or something
At some point, G'Kar finds something out that makes him talk to Delenn. She dismisses him and kosh is well kosh
Morden shows up after how Sheridan was talking about the wife. Sheridan locks up Morden until Delenn makes some story about keeping the Shadows in the dark about them being known about.
Delenn claims that the Narn have to be left hanging and allowed to fry for the "greater good" and keeping the Shadows in the dark. She tells G'Kar this. (Show goes on to show that this was totally bull-****; no benefit for minibari or anybody else results from abandoning the Narn)
Narn Centauri tensions reach point and so the Shadows show up to help open the war.
Night watch somewhere
Fighter pilot character forced on the show writer does ???? For a while
Refa gets involved. Morden works with him some.
Centauri emperor dies before being able to publicly apologize to Narns, condemns Londo for what Londo is doing
Narn Centauri War starts up - season finale

Show season 3)
A new Centauri emperor
Narn Centauri War
Earth distances itself, puts itself to own concerns. Ships go places
Narns try their little hearts out by are left alone, abandoned. Minibari do nothing to use the time supposedly being bought by Narns.
Sinclair gets the Rangers going
Narns still trying, Minibari still lazy b*******
Narns are still losing the war
Shadows get involved in the finishing parts. Londo watches the stuff. Narn homeworld taken - season finale

Show season 4)
Londo gets serious cold feet. Morden tightens the screws, fails. Londo forces refa from Morden. Morden arranges for death of Londo's squeeze.
Londo is in whole hog
G'Kar and other Narns get asylum on b5
Zathras
Minibari still lazy and still b********. Do nothing
Centauri impose puppet government on Narns
Centauri start encroaching on other aliens
Centauri start wars with aliens
Shadows show up maybe
Zathras
Rangers appear quite a bit
Rangers somehow made the white star Ships
Minibari still lazy but Minibari friendly to Rangers show up to help as the Shadows go to war

Delenn has the gray council pissing contest. Warrior caste guy from before kills himself. Minibari look like they may have a talk (these guys are slower than the Ents to come to a decision)

Sheridan makes the vorlans help fight the Shadows who have been there for a while already
Kosh dies
Shadows and vorlans blow up planets
Sheridan gets a visit from the wife
Sheridan goes on a tour of za'doom
Boom

Londo sets up refa to die. Vir kills Carty, Londo takes charge and does a thing. Vir gets the hand wave

Ivanova has Ranger guy, gets badly injured, healed by Ranger guy. She disappeared
Sheridan makes the Shadows and vorlans leave
Season finale

Show season 5)
Night watch
A new captain
Sheridan makes b5 independent, makes some new government
Londo is emperor of Centauri
Clark

Delenn gets the gray council to have more worker caste people

The mars stuff, Sheridan captured
Garibaldi and Besker
Clark deposed
Some other things???
G'Kar and Londo kill each other

B5 boom - season finale

I could have missed some things or be remembering them out of order.

I honestly forgot pretty much the entire Shadows war thing. I remember most of the Narn Centauri War and most of the plot points. In season 3, we have Vir helping out Narns

[Morgaln]

stuff that happens but not like that

You remember a bit, but your timeline is completely out of whack. A lot of the things happen about one season earlier than you think they do and some of them in a different order.

Warning: Major spoilers for a 30-year-old show ahead.

Season 1
The episode with the eye (Signs and Portents) is right in the middle (episode 13 of 22). It's where Morden shows up and asks everyone the question (except for Sinclair, because Kosh specifically stops him from doing that).

In the season finale (Chrysalis), Londo has the shadows wipe out a Narn colony in Quadrant 37. This is what pushes G'Kar down the road of researching who could have done that (since none of the known races is a viable candidate; technically Vorlons and possibly Minbari have the power, but neither of them would do it), and thus researching G'Quan's writing from a thousand years ago.

The raiders are inconsequential to the story. They are a convenient military threat if the show needs one, but they are not actually powerful enough to really get B5 in trouble.

Earth politics is already a thing during this season. We have an election going on during part of it, and newly-elected president Santiago will visit B5 during an episode (this is where we learn about Garibaldi's problem with alcohol).
Garibaldi's second in command, Jack, is the one who shot him. He doesn't have anything to do with Nightwatch because Nightwatch doesn't even exist at that time. In fact, it will later (early season 2) be revealed that Jack has ties to PsiCorps instead.

We have a number of significant stories here surrounding Sinclair that don't provide much payoff later due to Michael O'Hare leaving the show after season 1, but that is still important for what is to come. The B4 two-parter is one of those.

Other than that, we have a lot of episodic stuff in this season, but many of them have plots or background stuff that will become important later (e. g. Adira Tyree, the first appearance of Neroon, the Great Machine on Epsilon V, the alien healing device, the list goes on).


Season 2
The Narn-Centauri War starts about midway through the Season (The Coming of Shadows). This is the episode Emperor Turhan dies in. It is also the second time we see the Shadows in action, again on behest of Londo. G'Kar tries to find allies, but the Minbari are isolationists, the Vorlons don't care, Sheridan's efforts get blocked by EarthGov and none of the other powers has the strength.
The war ends very late in the season, in a strike that sees the third time the Shadows take action to help the Centauri (The Long, Twilight Struggle).
During the time of the Narn-Centauri War, other conflicts break out amongst various members of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds. This is background information, but it gets mentioned a few times. The sector is destabilized, which is exactly what the Shadows want. The implication is very much that the Shadows have manipulated several of these smaller powers to start wars (in fact, this is outright stated at a later time). The Centauri is our point of view for these because they are the biggest and most important of the powers that align with the Shadows, and because Londo is one of our main protagonists.

During the season, Sheridan learns about Morden, locks him up, and in the process is told about the Shadows. We also learn about the rangers during the season and that Sinclair is now their leader. Kosh starts to teach Sheridan and forms a bond with him. This culminates in Kosh revealing himself to the whole station in the season finale in order to save Sheridan's life.
Delenn certainly does not tell G'Kar anything about the Shadows during this season. The whole thing about not revealing anything to the Narn, and not corroborating G'Kar's warnings about the Shadows will come up later, during season 3. This was not to benefit the Minbari, this was to keep the Shadows from going into full-out attack mode before there was any hope of stopping them.

Earth politics pick up. Nightwatch gets introduced, as a "neighborhood watch thing" that looks for "suspicious behavior." Completely harmless, right? Zack Allen is our viewpoint character on this, as they are specifically trying to recruit security personel. At the same time, tensions in the Mars colony rise. B5 secretly looks into Santiago's assassination and Sheridan is revealed to have friends in high places that are conspiring with him to work against Clark. There's a major episode here where they find Clark's doctor and hide him from the people hunting him, because he can attest that Clark's exuse to leave EarthForce One before it blew up was made up. It culminates in EarthGov signing a non-aggression treaty with the Centauri in the season finale, just as the Centauri start to attack other powers in the aftermaths of their victory against the Narn.

While Warren Keffer (the executive meddling insert) is largely irrelevant to the story, his death in the season finale is what gives the first actual proof of the Shadows to the public.

Honestly, there is a lot going on in this season. There's stuff with PsiCorps and Talia Winters, more stuff involving the Vorlons, G'Kar's vain attempts to warn about the Shadows, including an expedition to the Shadow homeworld, first signs of Unrest among the Minbari following Delenn's transformation, Vir helping the Narn resistance, the list goes on. This is a dense season despite a number of stand-alone episodes.

Season 3:
Here is where he Shadow War starts in earnest. It's also where the main story threads start to get very tangled, so it's no longer as easy to separate them.

Episode one (Matters of Honor) introduces the White Star and almost blows it up right away as our protagonists face off against a Shadow vessel for the first time. In the same episode we see Morden on Earth, making contact with a government official, while the PsiCorps is also present. This shows that the Shadows are already involved in what's happening on Earth.

B5 is looking for allies and in the process, finds proof that Clark assassinated Santiago. It is never explicitely said, but the voice Clark has the conversation with in that recording is very clearly that of Morden, showing (to the audience) that the Shadows were enabling his rise to power in the first place.
In the aftermath of this information, various colonies (most notably Mars and B5) declare independence, which culminates in a big battle for B5 that only results in a victory for B5 because Delenn manages to extend Minbari protection to the station (Severed Dreams). This is one of the biggest wham episodes in the entire show.
Obviously, Clark milks this for all its worth for his anti-alien propaganda. Earth is full-on fascist at that point, complete with control of the media and suppressing renegade colonies with an iron fist (the show is not subtle about this at this point). The Nightwatch subplot basically ends here, as B5 obviously doesn't allow a informal thought police in service to a fascist government to remain on the station.

Londo cuts ties with Morden and also forces Refa to do the same. He also uses is influence to end many of the wars the Centauri are involved in. In response, Adira Tyree (Londo's love) gets assassinated and everything points to Refa as the one who did it (Interludes and Examinations). However, if you pay attention during the episode, it is very clear that it was actually Morden arranging this and framing Refa. Londo, thinking it was Refa, turns back to Morden and gets his help to arrange revenge. Both this and the Clark reveal are major plot things showing us the way the Sahdows have been manipulating things behind the scenes.

About midway through the season, the Shadows finally begin to attack powers not aligned with them directly. We see this on-screen. In other words, the Shadow War goes hot.

Sheridan gets Kosh to have the Vorlons directly engage the Shadows, as a symbol to others that an alliance against the Shadows is not hopeless. Kosh gets killed in retribution. His replacement is not a nice guy. It's our first real sign that maybe the Vorlons are not as benevolent as they appear (spoiler: they are not).

After a major engagement with the Shadows, Anna Sheridan shows up in the season finale. She convinces Sheridan to go to Z'ha'dum, the Shadow homeworld with her. There, the Shadows' agenda is revealed; they believe in strength through conflict and try to convert Sheridan to their side. Sheridan blows up the Shadow capital and dies in the process. Garibaldi gets kidnapped by the Shadows.

Again, there is a lot more happening in this season. More PsiCorps stuff, Franklin's walkabout, G'Kar having a revelation and starting down the path towards enlightenment and becoming a religious figure and the reveal what really happened to B4 alongside some rather concerning visions of the future, to name just a few.
As a callback to a previous point you made, there are at least six on-screen engagements with the Shadows in this season alone. We also have a war room setpiece on B5 that gets a lot of use in this season. The Shadow War is very much not an off-screen affair.

Season 4
Sheridan returns from Z'ha'dum alongside an alien called Lorien, who is revealed to be the first sentient being ever in the universe (we have to take his word for it, there's no actual proof). He explains the history behind the Shadows and the Vorlons. They are basically abusive parents going through a divorce, and each of them tries to get their children to side with them. (That's me making a somewhat tongue-in-cheek comparison, the truth is slightly more nuanced than that, but not by much). This is accompanied by the Vorlons finally taking direct interest in the war. That interest takes the form of blowing up the planets of every power that decided to ally with the Shadows. The Shadows retaliate in kind, meaning the Shadow War escalates badly.
B5 cuts ties with the Vorlons and with the help of Lorien gets the Shadows and Vorlons into one giant three-way battle. The result of that battle is that Sheridan tells both of them to leave and let the younger races live their own life. The Shadow War ends.

During all of that, G'Kar gets captured by the Centauri. We get introduced to Emperor Cartagia, who is ... unhinged, to put it mildly. The Centauri have a lot of Roman Empire imagery to them, the crazy emperor fits right in there. Londo and Vir kill Cartagia; Londo learns that Morden was behind the assassination of Adira and kills him, cutting ties with the Shadows for good.

Garibaldi gets rescued and returns to B5. He gets increasingly uncomfortable with Sheridan and quits his job, going into private business instead. He gets hired by William Edgars, a kind of philantropic billionaire from Mars. We get hints that some kind of brainwashing/conspiracy thing is going on with Garibaldi.

With the Shadow War over, B5 turns back to the problems at home (meaning Earth). They make contact with the resistance on Mars.
Earth sends media representatives to B5, to show how they are doing and let Sheridan tell their side. Obviously, everything in the report gets grossly twisted and misrepresented for propaganda purposes (not that Sheridan and Delenn make it difficult to twist their words). Also, there are reports of Earth Force ships shooting on civilian transports trying to leave occupied colonies.
This prompts Sheridan to take direct action. He starts to liberate said occupied colonies through military force.

Meanwhile the unrest that has been smoldering between the religious caste and the warrior caste of the Minbari starts to increase, culminating in full-on civil war. Delenn gets involved and ultimately ends it together with long time minor antagonist Neroon.

Garibaldi betrays Sheridan as a show of trust to Edgars, leading to Sheridan getting captured and Garibaldi being brought into Edgar's inner circle. We learn that Edgars thinks telepaths are a danger to humankind and works on a virus to wipe them out. However, Garibaldi has been brainwashed by the PsiCorps specifically to find this threat and betrays Edgars.

There's a whole episode about Sheridan being interrogated and gaslit repeatedly; this was originally supposed to be the end of season 4, but due to condensing two seasons into one (see below), it is not.

Garibaldi comes back into the fold, telling everyone about what the PsiCorps did to him. With his help, Sheridan gets freed and Earth is liberated in a final battle with the remaining forces loyal to Clark.

This season is packed full of stuff; a bit too much, actually. Reason for that is that it wasn't clear whether a season 5 would be greenlit and thus Straczynski condensed the planned seasons 4 and 5 into this one to get the main arcs finished either way. A lot of things get noticably cut short due to that. Unfortunately, it makes the show suffer a bit.
As always there is more going on in the season, although not as much as it is much to dense for a lot of side-stories. The forming of a long-lasting alliance, Garibaldi getting into a relationship (this ties into the Edgars plot), stuff about the resistance on Mars, more information on how deeply Clark was involved with the Shadows and the appearance of the first Shadow symbiont are examples.


Season 5
I'll be quick about this one, as it doesn't compare favorably to the rest of the show, mostly because what was originally planned for this had already been moved to season 4.

The main plots are:
The forming of the interstellar alliance.
A lot of PsiCorps stuff, revolving around Byron and his resistance against the Corps. If you want to find a storyline that is really badly done in B5, this is the one you want.
The Drakh (former servants of the Shadows) showing up and entrenching themselves on Centauri Prime.



That summary took quite a bit longer to write than I thought, and it leaves out quite a bit but it should be enough to give a rough idea of everything that happens and the correct order.

I am a bit confused but your constant claim that the Minbari are "lazy." The Minbari are working in secret to prepare to fight the Shadows. They construct a whole fleet of White Star ships in addition to providing their regular warships to the war effort. They train the Rangers for years. They are probably the power that provides the most to the fight against the Shadows overall. Despite the mounting tension between the castes, they are in agreement that the Shadows must be stopped. What they disagree about is the role of the humans and the importance of B5, not the necessity of the war. That resentment goes back to the Earth-Minbari war (i. e. 10 years before the show starts) and the warrior caste being told to surrender on the brink of victory without being told the reason behind it.

What the Minbari cannot do is openly oppose the Shadows as soon as they appear. The Minbari are the most powerful of the younger races, but the Shadows would still wipe the floor with them. And if the Minbari forced an open engagement with the Shadows during the time of the Narn-Centauri war, that would prompt the Shadows to move up their timescale and attack openly far earlier. Long before the younger races have the unity to fight them.

Also, the Minbari have strong ties to the Vorlons, wo are certainly not interested in having their strongest allies and flagship example for how the Vorlon way is right being wiped out due to an unnecessary show of force. So there is certainly some manipulation going on at that front.

[GloatingSwine]

B5 didn't quite condense seasons 4 and 5 into one, it just made sure season 4 ended at a point that if there was no season 5 it would have been a satisfying conclusion.

The things that happened in season 5 would still have happened, they just wouldn't have been as stretched. The end of the Earth Civil War would have been about 5-6 episodes into season 5 as the end of the Shadow War was in season 4.

Which would have meant a lot less Byron, the real problem with Season 5 because he's an insufferable git.

Also Lochley wouldn't have existed because with secured contracts Claudia Christian would still have been in the show and Ivanova would be in command of B5.

[xRazoZane]

Yeah the first season was great. Too bad the last season sucked.

I agree 100%

[The Glyphstone]

Wasn't this a Star Trek thread?

[russdm]

I will get back to this. I swear.

Maybe in a new thread if need be