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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Godzilla vs Kong

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So is this a Pacific Rim prequel then?

    Because I agree with BloodSquirrel, inventing a way to fight the damn monsters without needing other damn monsters who don't care about breaking our stuff sounds eminently sensible, except the guy doing it was Stupid Evul.
    Felt the same way - though it is circular because Pacific Rim was really a sequel to decades of other Kaiju movies.

    I do think virtually all of the humans presented were Stupid (some Evul, some Idiot Ball, some Just There to Fill the Lip Filler Quota), and that was the overwhelming detraction from the movie for me. The fact that the Titans killed probably millions of people in this film is nearly justified because if the people we see are the cream of the crop...the crop needed to be plowed under.

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    Given that Godzilla can bore through about half the planet in a few moments with his atomic breath, how far do the atomic breath shots that he aims at Kong/Mecha and misses travel? Are they impacted by gravity or do they shoot off into space?

    Why do pilots in these movies feel compelled to engage targets within a body length or two of the target when they have the ability to attack the target from a safe distance?

    Why did Jia have her Stuffed Kong all bound up?


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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Its the best plan humanity has had so far. The entire Monsterverse's theme can be summed up with a line by Dr. Serizawa in Godzilla 2014.



    The Titans are presented as much as acts of nature as they are animals and KotM poses the idea that co-existence isn't just a path available to humanity but its the most desirable path forward. And whither you agree with that principle will vary from viewer to viewer, but the movies definitely take the stance that its the right idea. That its better to exist alongside the Titans (Godzilla included) than to try and control them or, worse, kill them.

    GvK took that it a natural conclusion when a part of humanity decided it was better to supplant Godzilla and subvert the natural order and try to control it, just for that section to be smacked down because they in no way understood what they were screwing with.

    Or to take a lesson from Kong: Skull Island, sometimes there isn't an enemy until you go looking for one. Godzilla might have been destructive, but he wasn't an enemy. Objectively so in fact...until Apex went and MADE him an enemy.
    Edgy crapsack setting, got it. I'll be over here then.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    It's even where Godzilla and Kong themselves end up, after spending half the movie pointlessly trying to beat each other half to death.
    That's not how I understand their ending. I saw Kong dropping his axe and lowering his gaze (after being decisively beaten by Godzilla both on water and on land) as giving Godzilla the sign of submission that he was looking for and Godzilla then walking away as the confirmed Alpha

    Kong has desperation in his gaze upon having to face Godzilla a third time while Godzilla looks calm and expectant and after Kong drops the axe just roars in triumph, turns around and confidently leaves without sparing Kong another look
    Last edited by M1982; 2021-04-06 at 06:02 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Edgy crapsack setting, got it. I'll be over here then.
    I'd honestly say it's more hopeful than most giant monster settings, since it presumes that if you leave the giant devastation-powered monsters alone they will fix most of your problems and you can live happy lives. If it were crapsack, I feel like we'd see Godzilla stomping through cities on a regular basis without the movies taking time to create provocations that draw him in.

    Quote Originally Posted by M1982 View Post
    That's not how I understand their ending. I saw Kong dropping his axe and lowering his gaze (after being decisively beaten by Godzilla both on water and on land) as giving Godzilla the sign of submission that he was looking for and Godzilla then walking away as the confirmed Alpha

    Kong has desperation in his gaze upon having to face Godzilla a third time while Godzilla looks calm and expectant and after Kong drops the axe just roars in triumph, turns around and confidently leaves without sparing Kong another look
    Oh, interesting. Yeah, that is a very different read. I didn't read that scene as Kong lowering his gaze, I thought he was just glancing at the humans and then back to Godzilla. Under that impression, I read the scene as "Kong drops the axe but doesn't actually bow down, saying 'I don't want to challenge you, but I'm not going to serve you either" and after a moment Godzilla says, "Yeah, as long as you don't want to challenge me that's good enough for me, peace out, enjoy the Hollow Earth and I'll be up here."
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Godzilla vs Kong

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    That axe had just carved up Mechagodzilla like a Thanksgiving turkey. Dropping it was not a "I cannot beat you, and surrender" moment, it was a "I don't need to kill you" one.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
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    That axe had just carved up Mechagodzilla like a Thanksgiving turkey. Dropping it was not a "I cannot beat you, and surrender" moment, it was a "I don't need to kill you" one.
    Kong already fought Godzilla with the axe and it ended with Godzila beating him to death. Literally, he lay dying and if the humans had not performed CPR he would have just died there and then. And that was the second time the humans had to save his very life (although the first time was on a battlefield that so heavily favored Godzilla that it was just not a fair competition to begin with).

    Maybe it's difficult to paint emotions on a lizzard face, but I just replayed the scene and Kong definately has a look of sadness and desperation while he prepares to face Godzilla again while Godzilla's eyes are just calm. The roar that Godzilla makes as Kong drops his axe also just sounds triumphant to me rather than somehow reconciling. Maybe that's just also due to them having difficulting to convey emotions from a lizzards roar


    Edit: Maybe it was not difficulty but rather on purpose and they wanted Godzilla to fir the cold-blooded and emotionless reptile stereotype in contrast to the human-like great ape.
    Last edited by M1982; 2021-04-06 at 06:31 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Edgy crapsack setting, got it. I'll be over here then.
    It's none of those things to be honest.
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    Exceptional movie. There is like, one or two things that bgged me and one of them could easily be fixed in whatever comes after this.

    One of my personal highlights is how Mecha-G showed off all the tricks we know and love him for, in some degree. And also the sheer... brutality of the fights, especially the final one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    I'd honestly say it's more hopeful than most giant monster settings, since it presumes that if you leave the giant devastation-powered monsters alone they will fix most of your problems and you can live happy lives. If it were crapsack, I feel like we'd see Godzilla stomping through cities on a regular basis without the movies taking time to create provocations that draw him in.
    Except those "provocations" feel inevitable. Even without idiot megacorps breeding monsters directly under cities, the wild MUTOs seem to have no problem randomly going on the offensive and attracting Godzilla's ire anyway. And I get it, the unavoidable collateral damage that ensues is the entire point of these films, because it's poignant/cathartic to watch all our stuff get broken by oversized action figures... but when the tone constantly leapfrogs between "let's focus on the human cost of these unavoidable natural disasters and feel empathy for the survivors" to "PHWOAR CRIKEY, MORE EXPLOSIONS!" I just tune out.

    The cynic in me also realizes that Legendary almost certainly wants to wring a cinematic universe out of this, which means cast continuity, which means focusing on the human element even more - which then throws questions like "why the hell would anyone with a brain bother building skyscrapers in this setting anyway" or "how can anyone who does possibly afford to insure them" into even sharper focus. I expect such questions put me in the minority, but it's a minority I expect to increase as this 'franchise' goes on.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Godzilla vs Kong

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Except those "provocations" feel inevitable. Even without idiot megacorps breeding monsters directly under cities, the wild MUTOs seem to have no problem randomly going on the offensive and attracting Godzilla's ire anyway. And I get it, the unavoidable collateral damage that ensues is the entire point of these films, because it's poignant/cathartic to watch all our stuff get broken by oversized action figures... but when the tone constantly leapfrogs between "let's focus on the human cost of these unavoidable natural disasters and feel empathy for the survivors" to "PHWOAR CRIKEY, MORE EXPLOSIONS!" I just tune out.

    The cynic in me also realizes that Legendary almost certainly wants to wring a cinematic universe out of this, which means cast continuity, which means focusing on the human element even more - which then throws questions like "why the hell would anyone with a brain bother building skyscrapers in this setting anyway" or "how can anyone who does possibly afford to insure them" into even sharper focus. I expect such questions put me in the minority, but it's a minority I expect to increase as this 'franchise' goes on.
    I mean Hong Kong was always tall, it's not their fault they hadn't been knocked down yet to start building smaller instead. If it helps any, the places we've seen that have rebuilt in this film are all small buildings.

    The reason the two MUTOs in Godzilla went as they did is because they thought they were good. No one else to bother them. A MUTO shows up in King of the Monsters and bows to Godzilla same as everyone else. It's clear he can corral even those things, which are virulent parasite creatures.

    You can have the cool explosions and also focus on the horror of human loss of life. These are two things that can actually co exist. And.. I mean they HAVE a cinematic universe out of it, this is movie four of four so far.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Except those "provocations" feel inevitable.
    Are they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Even without idiot megacorps breeding monsters directly under cities, the wild MUTOs seem to have no problem randomly going on the offensive and attracting Godzilla's ire anyway.
    if a Wild MUTO attack a city.. you do NOT want Godzilla to intervene and stop it? you want to leave it rampaging unchallenged?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And I get it, the unavoidable collateral damage that ensues is the entire point of these films, because it's poignant/cathartic to watch all our stuff get broken by oversized action figures... but when the tone constantly leapfrogs between "let's focus on the human cost of these unavoidable natural disasters and feel empathy for the survivors" to "PHWOAR CRIKEY, MORE EXPLOSIONS!" I just tune out.
    No. No, that's not true. There is not a single event in the past 3 Godzilla movie where "Had Godzilla not shown up the death toll would have been lower". Yes, I agree that the death toll is horrendeous, but that's never *because* of Godzilla.

    The 2 more "ambivalent" attacks were:

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    1- The attack on Kong being ferreted to Antarctica.

    This was an attack on a *military* convoy, not a civilian operation.

    2- The attack on Pensacola

    For all we know, Godzilla genuinely believed Ghidora was back and active there, and there were Titan-class lifeforms in the facility. So this is the iffiest of attack, and he contained himself in destroying an industrial facility, not a whole city.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
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    He killed a bunch of people trying to get to Kong - which happened only because the evil CEO took Kong out of containment to try powering Mechagodzilla. There is not a single human casualty in this entire film that is not 100% caused by Apex's superweapon project.
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    This is like saying that it's your fault that the mob boss broke your knees because you didn't pay him protection money on time. You're blaming people for provoking Godzilla when Godzilla can be provoked by doing things that have nothing to do with him (Godzilla didn't know why they were transporting Kong, and neither did any of the sailors involved). At best, you can make a case (as I have) for Apex being criminally irresponsible, but you can't pretend like Godzilla is the victim here. If you're going to disregard him as a moral actor, and treat him merely as a force of nature, then you can't complain about someone looking for a way the neutralize him.


    Quote Originally Posted by M1982 View Post
    Kong already fought Godzilla with the axe and it ended with Godzila beating him to death. Literally, he lay dying and if the humans had not performed CPR he would have just died there and then. And that was the second time the humans had to save his very life (although the first time was on a battlefield that so heavily favored Godzilla that it was just not a fair competition to begin with).
    Yeah, I don't see how there's any ambiguity here. Godzilla won very, very decisively, and the only reason the axe worked against Mechagodzilla was that Godzilla intentionally super-charged it for Kong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    I think if you're coming at it from that angle, you're going to be running headlong into the philosophy of the movie series, which is that cooperation will always win out over wars of dominance. It's even where Godzilla and Kong themselves end up, after spending half the movie pointlessly trying to beat each other half to death.
    That's fine with me, because the "philosophy" of the Monsterverse is idiotic and deserves to be criticized.
    Last edited by BloodSquirrel; 2021-04-07 at 10:01 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    if a Wild MUTO attack a city.. you do NOT want Godzilla to intervene and stop it? you want to leave it rampaging unchallenged?
    Either way the city is destroyed. Why even have cities?

    Pacific Rim put a lot more thought into its world-building - humanity scaled back, moved underground, that sort of thing. So did other kaiju-inspired properties like Attack on Titan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    No. No, that's not true. There is not a single event in the past 3 Godzilla movie where "Had Godzilla not shown up the death toll would have been lower". Yes, I agree that the death toll is horrendeous, but that's never *because* of Godzilla.
    The choice between "high death toll" and "higher death toll" is the issue here. Older Godzilla stories glossed this over, because for the most part they were made to sell toys to children. Legendary has grander aspirations than that nowadays, but they have a lot more work to do on the world-building front if they expect their rickety shack to not tumble.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Either way the city is destroyed. Why even have cities?
    That's just an inane argument.

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    I'm just gonna throw my hat in and say that I'm on team "trying to control or kill the godlike monstrosities who very existence violates several laws of physics as we understand them with several powers that are blatantly supernatural is an effort in futility that will just get us killed."

    Picking fights with or trying to kill or control Big G never ends well. Either you fail and he gets pissed off or you succeed and something worse happens.

    The Showa era is the only continuity were killing a Godzilla didn't backfire horribly.

    Otherwise, we've got the Oxygen destroyer creating something infinitely worse than Godzilla, Godzilla's ghost possessing the cyborg made from Godzilla's bones to fight the replacement Godzilla, Godzilla's corpse being a convenient vessel for the vengeful ghosts of the people who died in East Asia and the pacific during WWII... Am I missing anything?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    That's just an inane argument.
    Great debating technique there

    But if you want something less pithy, how about "why have cities that in any way resemble cities in a world without rampaging kaiju?" At a minimum, continuing to have skyscrapers, especially in coastal settlements, seems like the height (natch) of idiocy.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I'm just gonna throw my hat in and say that I'm on team "trying to control or kill the godlike monstrosities who very existence violates several laws of physics as we understand them with several powers that are blatantly supernatural is an effort in futility that will just get us killed."
    Only because of authorial fiat, which is a very bad place from which to judge the rationality of the actors in the story. The technology to do it clearly exists. The "bad guys" were an ounce of common sense away from everything going right (even if you can't control 100% power Mechagodzilla, you could still build in a failsafe shut-down that lets you bring it to where Godzilla is, turn it on, and shut it off after the Godzilla has been killed).

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    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSquirrel View Post
    Only because of authorial fiat, which is a very bad place from which to judge the rationality of the actors in the story. The technology to do it clearly exists. The "bad guys" were an ounce of common sense away from everything going right (even if you can't control 100% power Mechagodzilla, you could still build in a failsafe shut-down that lets you bring it to where Godzilla is, turn it on, and shut it off after the Godzilla has been killed).
    Dude, the simple fact that Godzilla hasn't been crushed to death by his own bulk and doesn't cook himself to death every time he charges up a blast of nuclear hellfire means that Big G isn't even playing by the same rules as humans.

    It's better to just stay out of his way.

    And, granted, I'm speaking from a position of metaknowledge, but the "leave Godzilla alone" route has the weight of history on its siide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Great debating technique there

    But if you want something less pithy, how about "why have cities that in any way resemble cities in a world without rampaging kaiju?" At a minimum, continuing to have skyscrapers, especially in coastal settlements, seems like the height (natch) of idiocy.
    The technique was on par with the argument.

    Why have firemen intervene and damage a burning building; the building will be damaged by the fire anyway.
    Why have an army throw bombs on the Nazis; the countryside will be damaged anyway.

    Unchallenged rampaging Kaiju is worse than Godzilla's collateral damage, any day, any week, any year.

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    Default Re: Godzilla vs Kong

    As for why people live in cities when Kaiju exist...

    How many people in real life knowingly and willingly live in places that regularly suffer hurricanes and earthquakes?

    Oh, hell, my family still lives in the town where a tornado tore off the roof of the building we were in at the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Dude, the simple fact that Godzilla hasn't been crushed to death by his own bulk and doesn't cook himself to death every time he charges up a blast of nuclear hellfire means that Big G isn't even playing by the same rules as humans.

    And yet, somehow, Apex was still able to build a robot that could 1v1 him. Probably because they have technology that also violates the laws of physics as we know them.

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    I think it is a good point to note that we don't see any new-build skyscrapers. It's all stuff that existed prior to the Titans awakening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    A MUTO shows up in King of the Monsters and bows to Godzilla same as everyone else.
    Which clashes with their portrayal in first movie. There they were simply animals who actually laid eggs inside dead Godzillas and then they suddenly belong to a meta titan society bowing to a potential egg host as their king
    Last edited by M1982; 2021-04-07 at 11:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Why have firemen intervene and damage a burning building; the building will be damaged by the fire anyway.
    If a certain type of structure is more prone to catching fire, causes greater loss of life and property than other types of structure when it does catch fire, and fires can much more easily reach those structures when they are constructed on certain locations (coasts), I would expect the people of this world to take that into account. I'm not blaming the firefighters, I'm blaming the idiots who don't change their building practices in such a world.

    But such a world wouldn't offer the same level of poignancy for watching a giant action figure stomp all over a famous skyline we can visually recognize, so sense takes a back seat to spectacle. Michael Bay would be proud.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSquirrel View Post
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    This is like saying that it's your fault that the mob boss broke your knees because you didn't pay him protection money on time. You're blaming people for provoking Godzilla when Godzilla can be provoked by doing things that have nothing to do with him (Godzilla didn't know why they were transporting Kong, and neither did any of the sailors involved). At best, you can make a case (as I have) for Apex being criminally irresponsible, but you can't pretend like Godzilla is the victim here. If you're going to disregard him as a moral actor, and treat him merely as a force of nature, then you can't complain about someone looking for a way the neutralize him.
    To be fair both of those attacks were really provoking him.

    He didn't show up because they build a mech, he did show up because they build their mechs control system based on
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    Gidorah's neural system which caused Godzilla to show up looking for Gidorah and probably leave very confused as to why he could not find him there.


    And transporting Kong straight to Godzillas backyard was a provocation. They even said that would mean trouble if Godzilla discovered them. It's basic animal behaviour to defend their territory. So they knowingly provoked him as opposed to Apex who might not even have predicted that
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    partly reanimating Gidorah
    on such a low level would even be noticed by Godzilla


    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSquirrel View Post
    Yeah, I don't see how there's any ambiguity here. Godzilla won very, very decisively, and the only reason the axe worked against Mechagodzilla was that Godzilla intentionally super-charged it for Kong.
    Godzilla also got this idea due to first inadvertently charging it during his fight with Kong and even the charged axe was
    Last edited by M1982; 2021-04-07 at 11:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSquirrel View Post
    And yet, somehow, Apex was still able to build a robot that could 1v1 him. Probably because they have technology that also violates the laws of physics as we know them.
    You're missing the point.

    You can't take for granted that anything you try on Godzilla would work the way you'd expect it to on a normal being.

    you can't even take on faith that he can be killed. Yeah, there are the bones of a previous Godzilla, but we don't know for sure how it died. We can infer, but since basic physics doesn't apply we can't trust those inferences. Godzilla might be unable to die except by natural causes.
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    Also that "robot" was a Cyborg made in part from the remains of King Ghidora, including apparently enough of its the nervous system that it was effectively KG and followed KGs plans when outside of APEX's controls.

    I seriously doubt a fully mechanical structure would have been as effective.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: Godzilla vs Kong

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    You're missing the point.
    No I'm not. Your "point" is objectively wrong- humans *can* build technology that can fight Godzilla. It was demonstrated to be possible. Everything else you're saying is in stark denial to that fact. We don't have to "take it on faith"- we can see it happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by M1982 View Post
    To be fair both of those attacks were really provoking him.
    As I said- you're using a definition of "provoking him" that already gives up all of our moral rights to Godzilla and accepts that we only live at his whim. What's next, Godzilla deciding that building a city near the water is "provoking him"? That us having any technology beyond the stone age is "provoking him"?

    I can declare that anybody disagreeing with me on this forum is "provoking" me if I want, but that doesn't give me the right to murder them.

    If anyone gets to defend their actions by saying they were "provoked", it would be humanity after the titans turned a bunch of our cities to rubble.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: Godzilla vs Kong

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSquirrel View Post
    No I'm not. Your "point" is objectively wrong- humans *can* build technology that can fight Godzilla. It was demonstrated to be possible. Everything else you're saying is in stark denial to that fact. We don't have to "take it on faith"- we can see it happen.
    Spoiler
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    That technology amounts to strapping armor plating and guns on the reanimated corpse of something that could fight Godzilla.

    Literally. The Novelization flat out states that one of Ghiddora's heads is in there.

    It'd be like trying to kill Chuck Norris by making a Frankenstein out of Bruce Lee and then giving him a gun.

    When they build a "robot" that isn't literally just a cyborg zombie Titan with guns powered titan Energy, then we'll talk.

    And preferably it shouldn't go horribly wrong.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: Godzilla vs Kong

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSquirrel View Post
    As I said- you're using a definition of "provoking him" that already gives up all of our moral rights to Godzilla
    No, I say he's an animal that behaves exactly as we know such animals behave. He attacked Gidorah for existing and he attacked Kong for actively entering his territory (whith the humans already assuming he would eventually attack Kong for existing anyway)
    Last edited by M1982; 2021-04-07 at 01:09 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Godzilla vs Kong

    Also, you're still missing the point. Ignoring everything in my spoiler, Apex still took a huge gamble assuming that something that demonstrably doe not give a crap about physics could be harmed by anything that wasn't 100% another Titan.

    I mean, Oxygen Destroyer worked... Kinda. A little. Not enough to be practical, even ignoring the stuff we know but they don't. But Apex's plan didn't use Oxygen Destroyer, it used something else, something untested, something with no reason to suspect it would work.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

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