what to do with a fighter

[Skrum]

I've just started playing DnD again, and the last time I played was years ago in 3.5 - which is to say, I'm not particularly familiar with 5th.

I'm playing an orc fighter, and just hit second level. I'm planning on going Battle Master, and I've taken the fighting style variant that gives me a maneuver at 1st (I took riposte). I'm using an axe and shield for now, but I'm not entirely wedded to it.

So, question - how do I do more damage? Looking forward in progression, I'm not seeing any particular way to get above 1d8+str, which I imagine is going to get insufficient fast. The only thing I saw was Great Weapon Fighting (which would pair nicely with the feint maneuver), but I'd have to give up my shield to use it.

I really like the orc racial Aggressive, so if there's way to leverage that ability, that would be cool too.

My stats are 16 12 14 8 8 16, if that matters.

[Eldariel]

I've just started playing DnD again, and the last time I played was years ago in 3.5 - which is to say, I'm not particularly familiar with 5th.

I'm playing an orc fighter, and just hit second level. I'm planning on going Battle Master, and I've taken the fighting style variant that gives me a maneuver at 1st (I took riposte). I'm using an axe and shield for now, but I'm not entirely wedded to it.

So, question - how do I do more damage? Looking forward in progression, I'm not seeing any particular way to get above 1d8+str, which I imagine is going to get insufficient fast. The only thing I saw was Great Weapon Fighting (which would pair nicely with the feint maneuver), but I'd have to give up my shield to use it.

I really like the orc racial Aggressive, so if there's way to leverage that ability, that would be cool too.

My stats are 16 12 14 8 8 16, if that matters.

Well, you generally want a damaging fighting style first - you can pick another one up with a feat later but for now, it's your primary source of damage. The standard issue melee DPR "Sword" & Board is Polearm Master with Spear (or Quarterstaff) taking the Dueling-style. Once you get maneuvers on top of that on 3, you'll have plenty of damage and of course, 5 and 11 will give you further boosts. For reference, this puts you at 1d6+5/1d4+5 with a reasonable chance at getting an offturn 1d6+5 on top of it with +1d6+5 on level 5, and maneuvers and Action Surge on top of it (Action Surge obviously gets a lot more value once you get the second attack).

Then it's just down to feats and maneuvers. Though bewarned, this is one of those builds that starts off really strong but kinda plateaus: you'll get +4 Strength but aside from that you won't be getting any massive boosts to your overall damage. Great Weapon Master is a fine option down the line - eventually you'll have so much HP that you might not need as much AC (especially since the value of AC grows lower as enemy attack bonus grows higher, unless you can inflict Disadvantage somewhat regularly). One option is also going Shield Master but that depends on DM ruling (if you can shove before you attack, it can be worthwhile but otherwise PAM is largely better - though it does somewhat help your Dex saves at least).

[Greywander]

The main fighter progression is getting more attacks. Other martial classes get a max of two attacks with one action, but you're gradually work your way up to four at max level. At 5th level you'll get your first big bump with Extra Attack, doubling your damage output, and you'll get a third attack at 11th level. Compare this with the paladin who gets a second attack at 5th level, then gets Improved Divine Smite at 11th level, adding 1d8 radiant damage to each of their two attacks. The damage output is roughly the same.

On top of that, you also have your fighting styles. Sword and board usually wants to get Dueling, which will add up as you get more attacks. As Eldariel mentioned, you can also grab Polearm Master at 4th level and use a spear or quarterstaff to get a bonus action attack. The damage die is only a d4, but unlike dual-wielding you get to add your STR mod to the damage, and the Dueling bonus. Plus this will give you a total of three attacks at 5th level, so you should see a big spike then. If spears/quarterstaves aren't your thing, look into Shield Master instead, especially if the DM lets you use the shove before making your attacks (my interpretation is that it locks you into attacking, but allows the shove to happen first). Even if you have to shove after attacking, your teammates can still benefit from it, especially if you have a rogue in the party.

Once you start getting Battle Master maneuvers, most of those also do full attack damage on top of causing an additional effect. This allows you to inflict various effects on your enemies without giving up damage, and these can increase your own damage as well. For example, using a tripping attack with your first attack will allow you to make you next few attacks with advantage, increasing your chances of hitting and/or critting.

Otherwise, you should look forward to finding magic weapons. A weapon +1 usually means 2 extra damage for other classes, but for you it can be 3 or 4 extra damage, and that only increases as you get +2 and +3 weapons, or something like a Flame Tongue that uses more damage dice. The key to maximizing fighter damage is to stack as many bonuses as you can that will apply to each attack you make, rather than to just a single attack. You'll get roughly twice the benefit that other martial classes will get out of those features, albeit not until higher levels.

You might also look at feats such as Slasher or Crusher to add a bit of control to your attacks. While these won't add damage directly, knocking an enemy into a hazard or slowing them down so they can't run away/chase your mages can still be tactically valuable. Piercer generally isn't worth it, IMO, but it will add a small amount of damage (to a single attack only, which is part of the issue).

You might also consider multiclassing, though that means giving up your fourth attack at 20th level (but that's a long ways away). A barbarian dip can get you a +2 bonus to damage while raging, on top of the other benefits of Rage like damage resistance.

[Eldariel]

You might also consider multiclassing, though that means giving up your fourth attack at 20th level (but that's a long ways away). A barbarian dip can get you a +2 bonus to damage while raging, on top of the other benefits of Rage like damage resistance.

It's worth noting though that Fighter is pretty busy up until level ~8-11. From now on, you have:
- Battlemaster on level 3
- Polearm Master on level 4
- Extra Attack on level 5
- +2 Strength on level 6
- Superiority Die #4
- +2 Strength on level 8
- 1d10 Superiority Dice on level 10
- Extra Attack on level 11

Trying to fit Barbarian there so that you get a net damage increase is hard. While the resistances are good, you really want 3 levels of Barbarian for them to truly take off (Totem Warrior Bear, which also works in Heavy Armor - though that would lose out on the +2 damage so you'd be forced to go medium armor, which is a chunk of AC equal to a shield at this point). After 11 Fighter doesn't really get anything of note for another 5 levels so it's easy to fit stuff there, but pre-11 you're probably best off just going Fighter.

And even then, the latter ASIs can add crucial abilities like Resilient: Wisdom, Lucky, Martial Adept, Fighting Initiate (e.g. Blind-Fighting or +1 AC), Heavy Armor Master (which is actually not a bad pick for your level 6 ASI if you're okay slowing down your damage progression a bit: this would let you get Crusher and Heavy Armor Master to add more control and anti-crowd capability to your repertoire, plus Crusher goes nicely with Polearm Master anyways, forcing enemies to close in to provoke again, though that combo locks you to Quarterstaves), Con-improvements/Tough, etc. so it's not that bad an idea to go for level 12 at that point. You could get up to 7 superiority dice by level 15 if you took both Martial Adept and Fighting Initiate: Superior Technique, which could be cool too (or 6 by level 8 if you push your Str boosts down the line) though Str does probably get you more damage per day (depends on fight duration, amount of advantage, enemy AC, frequency of short rests, etc.).

[ImproperJustice]

Typical Sword and Board combo is dueling, and then anything that grants advantage.

Shield Master is nice for Champions as a resource free shove/ prone maneuver. Allowing for attacks with advantage.

Advantage doubles your chances for a crit, a d combined with extra attack is welcome.

Most Battlemasters will lead with a trip attack, and then pile on with an action surge volley.

Samurai just unload their Fighting Spirit w/ a surge a couple times a day in between short rests.

Keep your ranged options open, the above listed features all work with ranged attacks.
Samurai and Battlemaster (especially with some of Tasha’s maneuvers) have some cool things they can do now outside of combat.

Champion athleticism can be useful in exploration.


Menacing attack is great for Battlemasters too as it targets Wisdom.

Crisher, Piercer, Slasher are all direct combat upgrades.
Poisoner could be really interesting in a fighter, but check with your GM. If they allow harvesting of enemy / trap poisons you could have some good stuff available. Also, it’s not great against undead and constructs but could be useful if the main campaign villain is the evil empire of humans and elves.

[Mastikator]

Great Weapon Master feat + Precision maneuver is an easy way to crank out a lot of damage. But you'll have to use a heavy two handed weapon (so no shield). You'd do 2d6 + str + 10. Precision maneuver is added after the roll but before you find out if you hit so you're less likely to waste it. Maneuvers like trip and menacing are really good. Menacing can be added after you hit and since it's a weapon dice it also gets doubled on crit. (similar to how paladins can choose to smite after they roll 20).

Polearm master is also really strong since it lets you weaponize your bonus action, and use your reaction to attack if someone enters reach. Works with spear so you can use your shield. (and yes, you can combine Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master and yes it is very strong)

[Ir0ns0ul]

I think the folks above hit the hail, but if I can complement with some perspective:

- Fighters often don’t have much use for their bonus action; that’s why PAM is great
- Fighters do have a lot of attacks, so any damage increase that adds in each attack is amazing, for example Hunters Mark/Hex, Divine Favor, Hexblade Curse, Rage and etc.

Of course depends on your WIS, but War Domain Cleric offers good versatility for Fighters and it’s a nice 1 dip level.

[sophontteks]

Swap to Dueling at level 4.
At level 1 Superior technique is better then dueling. I recommend you change your fighting style to dueling once you hit level 4 though. Dueling becomes better as you get more attacks.

The spear is your best weapon with polearm master.
You can throw it. You can use a shield with it. With Polearm master you get a bonus attack and a opportunity attack whenever someone walks up to you. This is a great weapon.

There are actually a few ways you can build a battlemaster from here.

You could take thrown weapon fighting style, goading strike, and thrown weapon master to make a "second line" build that throws spears just out of melee range, goading the enemy into attacking them where they take all opportunity attacks. Dueling works on melee weapons, even if you are making a ranged weapon attack with that melee weapon. +4 damage on each attack is pretty nice.

You can also build a front liner, I won't go into detail because people already have. Menacing attack is very good. Once you get to level 5 and you are making up to 6 attacks in a round, you'll be the top damage-dealer by a long shot. Make sure you push for resting between fights.

[Man_Over_Game]

It's worth noting that the Battlemaster generally does more damage than any other Fighter subclass.

A while back, I calculated what the most easily quantified Fighter subclasses would do in a fairly basic scenario of each being level 5, having either the Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter feats, and having an average of 3 combats a day, each lasting 3 rounds.

The results were (with the numbers reflecting the damage gain from the subclass):

Champion (+4.2), Samurai (+35), Arcane Archer (+69), Battlemaster (+54-96)

Battlemaster either lets you get extra attacks per round (Riposte) or it tacks on guaranteed damage with its attack riders. At 4 uses per Rest, 3 fights a day, each one adding a minimum of +4.5 damage to your attack, for ~+54 damage per day. At that point, you're doing about 11 damage per attack, 22 per round, so your base damage before maneuvers is about 200 damage per day.

You have to get used to the fact that damage isn't going to be scaling up very quickly. You have probably one of the best subclasses for a Fighter's damage output and it's only contributing about 25% more damage.

[Skrum]

By spear do you mean pike? Or the simple weapon "spear?"

[stoutstien]

It's worth noting that the Battlemaster generally does more damage than any other Fighter subclass.

A while back, I calculated what the most easily quantified Fighter subclasses would do in a fairly basic scenario of each being level 5, having either the Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter feats, and having an average of 3 combats a day, each lasting 3 rounds.

The results were (with the numbers reflecting the damage gain from the subclass):

Champion (+4.2), Samurai (+35), Arcane Archer (+69), Battlemaster (+54-96)

Battlemaster either lets you get extra attacks per round (Riposte) or it tacks on guaranteed damage with its attack riders. At 4 uses per Rest, 3 fights a day, each one adding a minimum of +4.5 damage to your attack, for ~+54 damage per day. At that point, you're doing about 11 damage per attack, 22 per round, so your base damage before maneuvers is about 200 damage per day.

You have to get used to the fact that damage isn't going to be scaling up very quickly. You have probably one of the best subclasses for a Fighter's damage output, and it's only contributing about 25% more damage.

You should play around with the psi Knight. Can't quite catch the BM but it can get close. It's less reliant on criticals with adding Int mod to the bonus damage which may not be effected by crits DM ruling pending. Only down fall is needing at least 3 Int to push the upper limit.

[Eldariel]

By spear do you mean pike? Or the simple weapon "spear?"

Simple weapon "Spear". Thanks to errata, it works with Polearm Master, which makes it lowkey a top tier weapon. Quarterstaff is the other option (if your table doesn't use errata, the only option). Spear can be thrown; meanwhile, Quarterstaff can benefit of Crusher, being a Bludgeoning weapon (and not relevant to you, but also works with Shillelagh and doubles as an arcane/druidic focus). Polearm Master + Duelist is one of the better damage comboes in the game (behind GWM/SS builds), getting a lot of hits with one-handed weapons proccing Duelist over and over. Either works just fine.

[Man_Over_Game]

You should play around with the psi Knight. Can't quite catch the BM but it can get close. It's less reliant on criticals with adding Int mod to the bonus damage which may not be effected by crits DM ruling pending. Only down fall is needing at least 3 Int to push the upper limit.

I took a look at it, but it seems like a simpler version of the Battle Master. I like playing around with stuff that forces other things to act differently. More game, not more numbers.

Psi Knight's starting powers are:

• Add extra damage to an ally's attack.
• Block damage dealt to an ally.
• Spend an Action to move an ally 30 feet.

Plus, you get 4 uses, +1 per Short Rest, which results in a lot less versatility and decision-making than the Battle Master's 4 per Short Rest.

The Psi-Knight is this weird middle ground between the Battlemaster (who has maneuvers using Charisma, Wisdom and Intelligence now) and the Samurai (who uses some Wisdom). Which is kind of irrelevant, when the Samurai was made as a middle ground between the Battle Master (Resource management) and the Champion (hit things very hard).

Mechanically, it doesn't really seem to add all that much to the game, unfortunately. For the extremes between Simple and Consistent (Champion) vs. Resource-management and Strategy (Battle Master, Eldritch Knight), the boundaries of the Fighter class hasn't changed since the first book (since you can always make a simple Battlemaster for roughly the same gains as the Samurai, Arcane Archer, or Psi Knight).

The Psi Knight can move someone 30 feet as an Action, Battlemaster can add +4.5 damage to an attack and move an ally half their movement (~15ft) with their Reaction and do it about twice as often. What is a Fighter doing every turn? Attacking.

It's like we just keep getting different versions of Battlemaster builds. Maybe it's just because they made the Battlemaster to be extremely robust and versatile, but it's not like "Move an ally after you hit an enemy" is all that revolutionary of a concept. As weird as the Echo Knight was, and how little it fits into the default DnD world, it was exactly what the Fighter needed.


Sorry, got on my high horse again....

[stoutstien]

I took a look at it, but it seems like a simpler version of the Battle Master. I like playing around with stuff that forces other things to act differently. More game, not more numbers.

Psi Knight's starting powers are:

• Add extra damage to an ally's attack.
• Block damage dealt to an ally.
• Spend an Action to move an ally 30 feet.

Plus, you get 4 uses, +1 per Short Rest, which results in a lot less versatility and decision-making than the Battle Master's 4 per Short Rest.

The Psi-Knight is this weird middle ground between the Battlemaster (who has maneuvers using Charisma, Wisdom and Intelligence now) and the Samurai (who uses some Wisdom). Which is kind of irrelevant, when the Samurai was made as a middle ground between the Battle Master (Resource management) and the Champion (hit things very hard).

Mechanically, it doesn't really seem to add all that much to the game, unfortunately. For the extremes between Simple and Consistent (Champion) vs. Resource-management and Strategy (Battle Master, Eldritch Knight), the boundaries of the Fighter class hasn't changed since the first 3 subclasses.

It's sort of the halfway between the EK and champion. It is a little redundant but purely on the most damaging subclass it might be the leader once proficiency jumps up to 3 for at least part of the level range. *Rests per day depending*

[firelistener]

I'll go against the grain here and just say you probably don't need to worry about boosting damage all that much. 5e is designed with lower monster AC, so you'll be hitting more often on average than you would in 3.5 even without boosts from items and such. With that in mind, Fighters get more Extra Attacks than everyone else and quickly begin to output more damage as they level than most other classes. Just improve your Strength score, and it actually should be plenty sufficient without defining your entire build around getting a single extra d4 from something like PAM.

My suggestion is just pick a 3rd level subclass that sounds cool to you. As others have suggested, Battle Master is a really popular choice if you want something with more crunch.

[sophontteks]

I'll go against the grain here and just say you probably don't need to worry about boosting damage all that much. 5e is designed with lower monster AC, so you'll be hitting more often on average than you would in 3.5 even without boosts from items and such. With that in mind, Fighters get more Extra Attacks than everyone else and quickly begin to output more damage as they level than most other classes. Just improve your Strength score, and it actually should be plenty sufficient without defining your entire build around getting a single extra d4 from something like PAM.

My suggestion is just pick a 3rd level subclass that sounds cool to you. As others have suggested, Battle Master is a really popular choice if you want something with more crunch.

OK to be fair we are not telling him he needs to do more damage.He is asking us how to do more damage. We are just answering his inquiry.

[Frogreaver]

I've just started playing DnD again, and the last time I played was years ago in 3.5 - which is to say, I'm not particularly familiar with 5th.

I'm playing an orc fighter, and just hit second level. I'm planning on going Battle Master, and I've taken the fighting style variant that gives me a maneuver at 1st (I took riposte). I'm using an axe and shield for now, but I'm not entirely wedded to it.

So, question - how do I do more damage? Looking forward in progression, I'm not seeing any particular way to get above 1d8+str, which I imagine is going to get insufficient fast. The only thing I saw was Great Weapon Fighting (which would pair nicely with the feint maneuver), but I'd have to give up my shield to use it.

I really like the orc racial Aggressive, so if there's way to leverage that ability, that would be cool too.

My stats are 16 12 14 8 8 16, if that matters.

• If you don't have the Duelist Fighting Style then switch to a 2 handed weapon - unless you have trouble staying up in combat.
• Once you become a Battlemaster make sure to take the trip attack and precision attack Manuevers.
• Consider a single level dip into hexblade - I prefer to wait till level 6-7 to do so. (Hex and Hexblade's curse both add nice damage to each attack you make)
• Some suggest GWM or PAM - but I think you'll enjoy the warlock multiclass dip more.

The bread and butter combo from level 5+ is going to be something like: Hexblade's Curse + Action Surge + Precision Attack when missing by not to much + Trip Attack when hitting. By the time you have max strength and the warlock dip at level 7 you can hit for about 70+ accuracy accounted for damage on your opening turn (once per short rest). In fights where you just want to do consistent damage you can hex to grant all your attacks an additional d6 damage.

[Skrum]

• If you don't have the Duelist Fighting Style then switch to a 2 handed weapon - unless you have trouble staying up in combat.
• Once you become a Battlemaster make sure to take the trip attack and precision attack Manuevers.
• Consider a single level dip into hexblade - I prefer to wait till level 6-7 to do so. (Hex and Hexblade's curse both add nice damage to each attack you make)
• Some suggest GWM or PAM - but I think you'll enjoy the warlock multiclass dip more.

The bread and butter combo from level 5+ is going to be something like: Hexblade's Curse + Action Surge + Precision Attack when missing by not to much + Trip Attack when hitting. By the time you have max strength and the warlock dip at level 7 you can hit for about 70+ accuracy accounted for damage on your opening turn (once per short rest). In fights where you just want to do consistent damage you can hex to grant all your attacks an additional d6 damage.

That does sound like a good combo, but for roleplaying purposes I probably won't. My character is an orc from a hunter/gatherer tribe with asperations to be a "suave swordsman" type - defeating his opponents with overwhelming martial skill and finesse.

Thank you for the suggestions everyone! I already talked to the DM about swapping for duelist, so I think I'm going to go the duelist/spear/polearm mastery route. I think that fits his flavor as well, being an orc. Probably switch to a pike with GWM later on (level 8?), assuming I live that long/progress that far.

[Man_Over_Game]

That does sound like a good combo, but for roleplaying purposes I probably won't. My character is an orc from a hunter/gatherer tribe with asperations to be a "suave swordsman" type - defeating his opponents with overwhelming martial skill and finesse.

Thank you for the suggestions everyone! I already talked to the DM about swapping for duelist, so I think I'm going to go the duelist/spear/polearm mastery route. I think that fits his flavor as well, being an orc. Probably switch to a pike with GWM later on (level 8?), assuming I live that long/progress that far.

If damage is your goal, nothing's going to ever outpace PAM+GWM for Fighters.

[LudicSavant]

If damage is your goal, nothing's going to ever outpace PAM+GWM for Fighters.

This is objectively wrong.

[sophontteks]

This is objectively wrong.

You gonna add anything to that?

[Man_Over_Game]

You gonna add anything to that?

Tbf, I bet you could make a baller thrown weapons build if you got both Duelist and the Thrown Weapon Fighting. That's +4 damage per throw, turning a 1d6 into the equivalent of a 1d14. Add in the fact that you can still hold a shield and you keep your Bonus Action, it might be a solid contender in the upper levels, like maybe an Eldritch Knight build or something.

Although it's hard to say, considering how variable GWM can be. I think I'd probably do it as a Horizon Walker Ranger instead, since the extra ranged works well with those teleport strikes.

I'd laugh if someone managed to pull off a Ranger build that outperformed the flood of PAM+GWM builds we've had over the years.

[Frogreaver]

You gonna add anything to that?

{Scrubbed}

[Man_Over_Game]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Nah, it's cool. Me and Ludic go way back. We bickered then, too! And it's not like I offered any evidence of my statement.

[Frogreaver]

Nah, it's cool. Me and Ludic go way back. We bickered then, too! And it's not like I offered any evidence of my statement.

I have a problem with the notion that not offering evidence for a universally qualified statement being a thing that could be held against you. Nearly no amount of evidence is ever going to be adequate to back up such a statement. Whereas if it's obviously incorrect then it's trivially easy to provide a counterexample.

[LudicSavant]

You gonna add anything to that?

Sure, I'd be happy to elaborate!

So basically, in order for GWM to outperform even a strength bump, you need to have a sufficiently high hit chance due to some combination of accuracy buffs and/or sufficiently low enemy AC. Thus it is fairly commonplace for GWM to get outpaced in a wide variety of situations.
PAM likewise has some clear limitations -- it competes for action economy (so if your Fighter has access to other bonus actions or reactions, it's less valuable), and it lowers your weapon die size, which actually matters when we're talking about a class that can potentially get several attacks in a round.
Both lose access to certain highly efficient Fighting Styles (like Archery), and both require you to focus on Strength, which means a lower initiative than Dex-based alternatives (and winning initiative more often = more actions per adventuring day = better damage output), and both will not work with things like, say, Shadow Blade on an Eldritch Knight.

As an example of a case where PAM actually makes your damage lower, let's take the humble Champion -- after all they make for a particularly simple and straightforward calculation.
Level 20 Champion w/ GWM+PAM+20 Strength+GWF Style+Glaive vs AC 19 (DMG-stated "average AC for a CR20 monster"):
46.4 DPR
76.1 DPR with Advantage
84.7 DPR with Action Surge
138.2 DPR with Action Surge/Advantage

Meanwhile if that same character ignores their PAM feat and just swings a greatsword, they instead do:
47.4 DPR
81.5 DPR with Advantage
92.4 DPR with Action Surge
153.9 with Action Surge/Advantage

(All results rounded to nearest tenth. This calculation includes everything: accuracy, critical hits, GWF rerolls, and the chance of a GWM bonus action attack triggered by crits. You can easily replicate the results using AnyDice or the DPR calculator in my sig).

We're already beating out PAM's damage, and that's without even replacing it with a different feat, which could further improve our damage (like, say, using a maul with Crusher, or taking Fey-Touched for Hex, or the like).

So why does your Champion's damage actually go down with PAM? Well, it's because...
- Your damage die gets lower, which actually matters with a large number of attacks and high critrate.
- You scale less with the GWF style (which adds 1.33 repeating per greatsword hit and 2.66 repeating per greatsword crit, but only .8 per Glaive hit, 1.6 per Glaive crit, and .5 / 1 per PAM bonus action hit/crit).
- Your crit rate is high enough that there is a substantial chance of getting a bonus action attack, without PAM's help. (There's actually even more of a chance in a fight with multiple enemies, because of the "reduce a creature to zero" clause).

And again, that's all before we consider that we could have taken another feat in PAM's place.

This is but one of many examples. It's not uncommon for there to be scenarios where a Fighter will do better damage with choices other than PAM+GWM.

They're good feats, but there's plenty of strong competition.

Nah, it's cool. Me and Ludic go way back. We bickered then, too! And it's not like I offered any evidence of my statement.

[Man_Over_Game]

Few things, though.

It's not expected for a player to go toe-to-toe with a creature of equal CR, the expectation was that a party of 4 is supposed to take on 1 creature of equal CR.

You are accounting for a level 20 scenario, not one that's a little more down-to-earth, like level 5. Most of us haven't seen a level 20 table before, so it's relevance is a bit spotty.

While it's a little odd of a nitpick, the Champion isn't exactly a great example of anything to use for a basis, as it basically contributes a bonus equal to 5% (10% at super high levels) of your weapon damage (which is like .6 damage per turn). Compare it to something like the Samurai or Battlemaster, who can modify their accuracy and are more common, and it's a no-brainer.

Lastly, AC kinda scales up faster for monsters the more magic items are expected, but I realize that can probablh be looped in with nitpick #2.

But I want to clarify, I don't think they are individually bad, but that they are much stronger together. GWM is stronger the weaker your attacks are, so you're risking less for that bonus damage, and PAM requires reach weapons (which sacrifices damage for versatility and consistency) while also giving you a weak attack and a Reaction Attack.

Which is a pretty perfect synergy. GWM wants rapid-fire attacks, PAM sacrifices damage for more attacks.

[LudicSavant]

You are accounting for a level 20 scenario, not one that's a little more down-to-earth, like level 5. Most of us haven't seen a level 20 table before, so it's relevance is a bit spotty.

You said "nothing's going to ever outpace PAM+GWM for Fighters." Level 20 is part of ever, and thus seems relevant to the claim being addressed.

That said, the level 20 Champion is an arbitrary example, chosen for its relative simplicity -- I could have used any of a hundred others, which is why I gave more generalized principles above the specific example. Those principles can apply at level 5, or level 20, or any other level.

Compare it to something like the Samurai or Battlemaster, who can modify their accuracy and are more common, and it's a no-brainer.

It shouldn't be a no-brainer for them either. A Samurai for example cannot benefit from bonus action attacks when using Fighting Spirit, and thus it should be clear that PAM+GWM isn't maximizing damage there. And (at higher levels) they will have even more attacks than a usual Fighter.

PAM+GWM is a good combo, but there are other combos that are at least as effective. More of them than ever now that Tasha's is out.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I didn’t crunch any numbers and my math skills are nothing compared with Ludic, but I always had the feeling that my basic GWF Fighter / Hexblade swinging a Greatsword with Hex on round 1, Hexblade Curse on round 2 and Action Surge on round 3 was consistently doing more damage than my fellow GWM and/or PAM friends.

[ImproperJustice]

Or the Eldritch Knight with the action surge double fireball that kills everything before the encounter starts.