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20210408, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
 Join Date
 Nov 2017
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
This is likely the key to closing the gap between the Champion and BM. It's also very difficult to calculate (because it heavily depends on the rest of the party), so it might be necessary to lean on anecdotal evidence from people who have played both Champs with Crusher and BMs, or been in parties with both. Rogues and paladins will certainly be very happy to have you around. Honestly, this probably works best if other people in the party are also optimized for critfishing, so by providing advantage for them you increase the odds of even more crits.

20210408, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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 Jun 2019

20210408, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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 Mar 2013
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Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
I'll be honest and say that I only skimmed the Precision Attack discussion and did not see your solution
So, let's make up these variables to see how it affects the party's DPR.
I think that, outside some really edge cases, you're going to have  at best  2 other chracters that rely on attack rolls other than the Champ and, thus, benefit from the Advantage.
Let's say, Champion + Melee Swashbuckler Rogue + EB focused Warlock. That seems almost ideal for the Champion.
Champion lv 6 stats: 20 str, Maul
Rogue lv 6 stats: 18 Dex, Rapier and Dagger
Warlock level 6 stats: 18 Cha, Agonizing Blast as an invocation
Compared to a BM using the best DPR possible (same Rogue and same Warlock on the party)
Is this solvable? (honest question here)

20210408, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
 Join Date
 Jun 2014
 Location
 Los Angeles
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
The damage output of Crusher is affected by...
 Who your party members are and how much they benefit from Advantage.
 When in the turn you grant Advantage
 How many attacks you can make on the monster you just granted Advantage against before it dies and you need to switch to a new target (e.g. this value will sometimes be less than "all of the attacks the party can make in one round")
Edit:
There's a solid guide for doing Battle Master calcs on AnyDice here: https://www.reddit.com/r/3d6/comment..._great_weapon/
The program allows you to choose whichever strategy you like (e.g. "I use Precision Attack if I miss by 5 or less") and calculate using that.
Separately, you can also calculate how many attacks, on average, it'd take you to exhaust all your superiority dice using any given strategy. For example if you say that you will only use a superiority die on a crit, you can calculate how many attacks would be necessary in order to get 6 crits (on average).Last edited by LudicSavant; 20210408 at 08:20 PM.
Originally Posted by Alucard_OW
An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds  Comprehensive DPR Calculator  Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF
Nerull  Wee Jas  Olidammara  Erythnul  Hextor  Corellon Larethian  Lolth  The Deep Ones

20210408, 08:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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 Apr 2020
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Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
The formula above is slightly complicated because the precrit attacks are known not to be crits, so I would need to account for a different set of conditional probabilities.
I split it up by cases in the spreadsheet linked in my most recent response above yours.
0 noncrits, a crit, 4 advantaged attacks
1 noncrit (hit or miss), a crit, 3 advantaged
2 non (mm, mh, hm, hh), a crit, 2 advantaged
3 non, a crit, 1 advantaged
4 noncrits
(And the probabilities added up to 1 at the bottom, giving me confidence that I exhausted the cases correctly.)

20210408, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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 Jun 2014
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 Los Angeles
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
Originally Posted by Alucard_OW
An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds  Comprehensive DPR Calculator  Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF
Nerull  Wee Jas  Olidammara  Erythnul  Hextor  Corellon Larethian  Lolth  The Deep Ones

20210408, 09:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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 Apr 2020
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 MN, US
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Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
Just to make sure, is that a HalfOrc Champ, starting Str 17, Crusher for 18, Str for 20?
Is the Rogue using alternate TWF rules or something?
First attack crit probability: 10%
First doesn't, second does: 9%
Likelihood of a Crusher crit in a given round: 19%
That doesn't sound like much, compared to the BM who is getting guaranteed damage per S.Die and hopefully choosing wisely what maneuver effects to apply.

20210408, 10:07 PM (ISO 8601)
 Join Date
 Jun 2019
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
No additional conditional probabilities are needed for my calculation. I calculate the DPR contribution of each attack and then sum together. You break the problem into cases and apply a weighted average to each case. Both are acceptable methods to reach the solution.
I split it up by cases in the spreadsheet linked in my most recent response above yours.
0 noncrits, a crit, 4 advantaged attacks
1 noncrit (hit or miss), a crit, 3 advantaged
2 non (mm, mh, hm, hh), a crit, 2 advantaged
3 non, a crit, 1 advantaged
4 noncrits
(And the probabilities added up to 1 at the bottom, giving me confidence that I exhausted the cases correctly.)
True and somewhat paradoxical, because knowing it takes X rounds to average 6 crits doesn't actually indicate that on average in X rounds you will be able to use 6 superiority dice on crits.Last edited by Frogreaver; 20210408 at 10:31 PM.

20210408, 10:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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 Mar 2013
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Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?

20210408, 11:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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 Sep 2015
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 where South is East
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
Mean, median, mode.
I wonder what's the shape of a simple 1in10 success.
Shouldn't it be p^6 + 7qp^6 + 28q^2p^6 + 84q^3p^6 + ... so we know each term?
Terms are diagonal from Pascal triangle instead of straight level, right?
1 7 36 120 330 792 1716 3432 6435 ...
That should converge pretty fast with p=.1... we have the mean
and I guess you'll reach success half the time at around 20 rolls (we have median?)
{6 success + 14 failures is 6/20, same as log(.5)/log(.1) ~ 0.3... but I'm really wild assguessing here.}Last edited by bid; 20210409 at 12:06 AM.
Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

20210409, 07:18 PM (ISO 8601)
 Join Date
 Jun 2019
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
As an example.
If you crit 10% of the time then on average you will do 6 crits every 60 attacks. However, one would only average 5.09 uses of superiority dice in that same timeframe.
To compute the Expected value for crits one would take the probability for x crits and multiply that by x for every x from 1...n (where n is the number of attacks). Then that would be summed up. That is your weighted average and how we can show that you average 6 crits in 60 attacks. When looking at superiority dice we would do something similar but a bit different. We still calculate the probability of x crits. But instead of multiplying by x for 1...n we instead multiply by x for 1...6...6 (representing that the best we can do is use 6 superiority dice)
This is also the reason we can conclusively say the champion will eventually overtake the battlemaster in damage given enough rounds, because despite the fact that precision attack's Expected Value is always increasing as the number of rounds/attacks increase, there is still an upper bound on that Expected Value.Last edited by Frogreaver; 20210409 at 07:20 PM.

20210409, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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 Jun 2014
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 Los Angeles
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
Last edited by LudicSavant; 20210409 at 07:37 PM.
Originally Posted by Alucard_OW
An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds  Comprehensive DPR Calculator  Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF
Nerull  Wee Jas  Olidammara  Erythnul  Hextor  Corellon Larethian  Lolth  The Deep Ones

20210409, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
 Join Date
 Jun 2019
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
The previous post says we can’t just assume this is the case but that it very may very well be the case. Essentially the case hasn’t been proven yet.
This new post goes on to prove the case.
That’s not a contradiction... so why refer to something as a contradiction when it is clearly not the case?

20210409, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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 Jun 2014
 Location
 Los Angeles
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
Last edited by LudicSavant; 20210409 at 09:29 PM.
Originally Posted by Alucard_OW
An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds  Comprehensive DPR Calculator  Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF
Nerull  Wee Jas  Olidammara  Erythnul  Hextor  Corellon Larethian  Lolth  The Deep Ones

20210409, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
 Join Date
 Jun 2019
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
I'm going to cite the part of my quote you didn't just bold back to you.
So, in order for this method to work we would need to know for certain that at some point the champion will do more damage than the battlemaster  which may be totally true, but we can't just assume that's the case.

20210409, 09:52 PM (ISO 8601)
 Join Date
 Jun 2014
 Location
 Los Angeles
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
That part of the quote is still wrong. You can assume that it will catch up because one function is very obviously steeper than the other.
Last edited by LudicSavant; 20210409 at 10:36 PM. Reason: Brevity.
Originally Posted by Alucard_OW
An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds  Comprehensive DPR Calculator  Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF
Nerull  Wee Jas  Olidammara  Erythnul  Hextor  Corellon Larethian  Lolth  The Deep Ones

20210409, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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 Jun 2019

20210409, 11:17 PM (ISO 8601)
 Join Date
 Jun 2014
 Location
 Los Angeles
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
Last edited by LudicSavant; 20210409 at 11:26 PM.
Originally Posted by Alucard_OW
An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds  Comprehensive DPR Calculator  Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF
Nerull  Wee Jas  Olidammara  Erythnul  Hextor  Corellon Larethian  Lolth  The Deep Ones

20210409, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
 Join Date
 Jun 2019

20210409, 11:25 PM (ISO 8601)
 Join Date
 Jun 2014
 Location
 Los Angeles
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
Originally Posted by Alucard_OW
An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds  Comprehensive DPR Calculator  Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF
Nerull  Wee Jas  Olidammara  Erythnul  Hextor  Corellon Larethian  Lolth  The Deep Ones

20210409, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
 Join Date
 Jun 2019

20210409, 11:42 PM (ISO 8601)
 Join Date
 Jun 2012
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
We can take you to water, but we can't make you drink.
The BM's damage is (N * X) + Y = D, where
 N is the number of rounds between short rests
 X is the normal fighter damage per round
 Y is the amount added by superiority dice (which is subject to a lot of questions of efficiency, but is ultimately finite)
 D is the total damage dealt between short rests
The Champions damage is (N * X) + (N * Z) = D, where
 N is the number of rounds between short rests
 X is the normal fighter damage per round
 Z is the amount added by the improved critical feature and extra fighting style, which scales infinitely with N
 D is the total damage dealt between short rests
as N > Infinity, Z * N will exceed Y, no matter how large Y actually is.
The only question is, how large does N have to be for this to occur. That question is not 'unsolvable' either, just dependent on baseline assumptions like build, magical weapons, and superiority dice strategy.
It's impossible to perfectly model play in a real game because there's a million random factors, but it is possible to get a pretty good idea of what the break even point is, given a set of assumptions.Last edited by strangebloke; Yesterday at 12:27 AM.

Yesterday, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
 Join Date
 Jun 2014
 Location
 Los Angeles
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
Originally Posted by Alucard_OW
An Eclectic Collection of Fun and Effective Builds  Comprehensive DPR Calculator  Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF
Nerull  Wee Jas  Olidammara  Erythnul  Hextor  Corellon Larethian  Lolth  The Deep Ones

Yesterday, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
 Join Date
 Sep 2015
 Location
 where South is East
Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
Last edited by bid; Yesterday at 11:51 AM.
Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

Yesterday, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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 Sep 2015
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 Maine
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Re: Are Champion fighters better now that we have Crusher/Piercer/Slasher?
The new ambush maneuver for Battle Masters is the most recent fly in the ointment. Going before team monster is a pretty big deal and having a way to modify it after you roll is rare or better yet getting a surprise rounds opening an encounter.
Last edited by stoutstien; Yesterday at 03:26 PM.