Differentiating devils and demons

[Drelua]

I have always been bothered by the idea of demons abiding by contracts, it seems to go against their very nature just as much as a devil breaking a contract. Heck even the idea that they are capable of forming a contract rubs me the wrong way. Trying to form a contract with a demon should be like playing Russian roulette by yourself, the only thing you can be sure when doing so is that eventually you are going to shoot yourself. Or summoning a demon with planar binding should be like blindfolding yourself then being handed a stick of lit dynamite and trying to hold it as long as possible.

This is true, contracts do go against the nature of demons, but they still want your soul. Succubi are demons, (although that has always seemed off to me) and I'm sure they make plenty of promises. Most of them are outright lies, but some are likely true. If a succubus promises you can be theirs, they mean it, in the worst way. Contracts chafe against their nature, but if they want your soul and know they can't corrupt you then I imagine they'd take it however they could get it. There's nothing they won't do to get what they want. The fact that it's not in their nature is what makes them less skilled at it.

Also, sounds like I need to read Paradise Lost. That might be my next book.

[liquidformat]

1) How could the appearances of existing baatezu and tan'ari be changed to reflect this?

A particular problem is balors vs. pit fiends. They look the same. What's a cool new appearance for a balor that differentiates it?

It seems right for it to be larger than the pit fiend, because its job is to punish and terrorize it, and because it's more of a "force of nature". Maybe if a pit fiend and a balor met, it would be the tiny figure of a bat-winged warrior in black armor, corrupted but retaining its dignity and pride, against a huge, molting specter of shadow and fire that curls and towers above it like a cloud of smoke. The devil stings its foe with a flaming spear, and the wounded balor resolves into a chimeric, many-horned monstrosity whose open mouth glows molten. If the devils are infernal "Mankind" and the demons are infernal "Nature", the devil is a corrupted version of an ancient Greek hero (with the fatal flaw to match -- the vice that made it fall) and the demon is the hydra or chimera, but even more horrible. So maybe you put the balor on all fours.

Or scrap the balor, what's a better concept for a CR 20 top dog demon? Tolkien's balrog fits more in the "devil/fallen angel" category anyway.

The ice devil and bone devil also need appearance reworks to fit the fallen angel idea. And almost all the demons are too human and not exotic enough.

There are a decent number of fiends in both categories that don't seem to fit your idea; Balor, Quasit, and Succubus all present issues on the Demon side and as Drelua said the Succubus in particular is a bit weird as a demon.

Honestly I might pull Succubus over to the Devil side and either make it less powerful or increase the power of the Erinyes. I could see the Succubus working well nerfed down to 2-3HD/ 2-3CR keeping energy drain and shape change then having charm person, detect good, detect thoughts and suggestion as SLAs

Balor you could go more bestial dumping the vorpal sword and instead give it a horn attack that is vorpal, adding in claws instead of slams, but keeping the fire whip. I am thinking gorilla/minotaur + bat wings.

Quasit lean into the flying demon monkey where as imp go for Fiendish cherub.

On the devil side just make Lemures 'lost souls' just emaciated looking humanoid with pale skin and gaunt features, they are damned souls after all.

Ice Devil and or bone might just be better being moved over to the demon side, though you could reskin the ice devil into a frozen giant humanoid I suppose.

You could make the bone devil into some crazy humanoid who has sharp bone spurs jutting out for claws and spinal 'tail' while also having bone growths coming out as an exoskeleton.

2) What are some consistent visual traits that could unite each category?
One idea is that devils wear arms and armor, oftentimes the desecrated versions of their old angelic armaments, while demons rarely do. A devil army marches with breastplates and spears, while the demons are a slavering, naked, fanged mass.

Also, unlike the demons, they should have sophisticated war machines. Another Paradise Lost quote gives an idea for these:

Armed with Hell-flames and fury, all at once
O'er Heaven's high towers to force resistless way,
Turning our tortures into horrid arms
Against the torturer...

The devils have taken the hazards of the underworld as weapons for their own use. So their war machines should burn with and shoot hellfire and be powered by infernal combustion engines.

3) Mechanically, how could the creatures be modified to reflect these ideas?
For devils, obvious start is to give them angels' protective aura and tongues.
For demons, a start is to template them with stuff like multiheaded. Or instead of tan'ari, in many cases, just use fiendish and half-fiend monsters of other types.

I'm just spitballing and thinking out loud here, but any response is welcome.

One interesting thing you could do which is purely cosmetic is give all winged Devils black feather wings and keep all winged demon with bat like wings.

[Bohandas]

This is true, contracts do go against the nature of demons, but they still want your soul. Succubi are demons, (although that has always seemed off to me) and I'm sure they make plenty of promises. Most of them are outright lies, but some are likely true. If a succubus promises you can be theirs, they mean it, in the worst way. Contracts chafe against their nature, but if they want your soul and know they can't corrupt you then I imagine they'd take it however they could get it. There's nothing they won't do to get what they want. The fact that it's not in their nature is what makes them less skilled at it.

I personally imagine succubi as being more about starting drama and spreading STDs

[XionUnborn01]

The fact that they're stuck in a battle with demons and would need a lot of new Angels falling to keep up numbers gives me an idea.

I'm speaking from 3.5 terms as that's what I'm most familiar with. What if demons had a tighter range of CR but a lower ceiling? Then we have high ranking devils being fallen angels with a higher CR and the low ranking devils are a mix of both other fallen celestial beings and then some low ranking ones are also created by the devils themselves similar to the process it is now (starting at lemures and then making their way up to a a low CR cap. These are lesser devils.)
So it would look like this in general:

CR 16+ is high ranking fallen angels and possibly a handful of 'manufactured' lesser devils.
CR 10-18 is the general range of demons. Possibly some that are lower cr and a handful of big beefy special demons if higher CR.
CR 10> would be the low ranking devils. These are the lemures, imps, and so on. the ones that deal more heavily with mortals and attempting to steal souls. More expendable and they probably answer to a specific angel.

This kind of answers why there doesn't need to be swaths of angels falling daily to keep numbers of high ranking devils up. The angels are stronger than most every demon but the demons have huge numbers advantages.

The lesser devils keep the cycle of corruption going and keep new souls coming to create more low ranking shock troop devils

[Crake]

This is true, contracts do go against the nature of demons, but they still want your soul. Succubi are demons, (although that has always seemed off to me) and I'm sure they make plenty of promises. Most of them are outright lies, but some are likely true. If a succubus promises you can be theirs, they mean it, in the worst way. Contracts chafe against their nature, but if they want your soul and know they can't corrupt you then I imagine they'd take it however they could get it. There's nothing they won't do to get what they want. The fact that it's not in their nature is what makes them less skilled at it.

Demon's have no use for souls. Unlike baator, the abyss doesn't need souls to create new demons, but the abyss itself is more of a reflection of the evils of the material (it's how the tanar'ri came into existence, when the material plane developed intelligent life and began commiting evils against one another, vs the obyrith which are more of a primordial chaos). Thus, the goal of demons isn't souls per se, it's the spreading of evil and chaos throughout the material. What happens with your soul is of little consequence, and succubi in particular, are more likely to simply devour it using their energy drain ability than trap it in a gem and use it as a currency for barter.

[Drelua]

Demon's have no use for souls. Unlike baator, the abyss doesn't need souls to create new demons, but the abyss itself is more of a reflection of the evils of the material (it's how the tanar'ri came into existence, when the material plane developed intelligent life and began commiting evils against one another, vs the obyrith which are more of a primordial chaos). Thus, the goal of demons isn't souls per se, it's the spreading of evil and chaos throughout the material. What happens with your soul is of little consequence, and succubi in particular, are more likely to simply devour it using their energy drain ability than trap it in a gem and use it as a currency for barter.

Hm, it's a good thing I'm the GM then.

Although they do have leaders, even if it's just because demons do what you say if they know you could beat up a balor. Well, they do what you say while you're looking. Those leaders might have a use for souls, even if it's just to trade them. Or to torment a good person that was willing to give up his afterlife to stop a bad guy. It works in my setting, I might just have to rethink a few details for an official world, which is good to know.

[Crake]

Hm, it's a good thing I'm the GM then.

Although they do have leaders, even if it's just because demons do what you say if they know you could beat up a balor. Well, they do what you say while you're looking. Those leaders might have a use for souls, even if it's just to trade them. Or to torment a good person that was willing to give up his afterlife to stop a bad guy. It works in my setting, I might just have to rethink a few details for an official world, which is good to know.

Right right, I was more speaking on like, a macro scale. Individual demons all have their own motivations of course, though demons would be more likely to forcefully take someone's soul through methods like trap the soul, soul bind, and binding, or just straight up body snatching with demonic possession, rather than through some kind of contract that they, really, have no method to enforce. Devils have the pact primeval that ensures an individual signing a faustian pact will have their soul damned to baator to be churned through the infernal soul engine, demons on the other hand must enforce contracts themselves, either through some kind of binding magic (see below), or through force should the contract be broken, though, at that point, if the demon can just do it through force, why not just start there?

Fiends of corruption and blasphemy are two good methods for demons to be able to supernaturally bind a victim's soul to themselves, but they're something a demon would need to invest time and experience into learning, so it's not something just any demon could do on a whim.

[Elves]

Another interesting take might be questioning what it means for an angel to fall. Rather than betraying its ideals or the god it represents what if all 'angels' are representatives of a god. When said god dies the angels that followed said god fall because they no longer have their guiding light and become devils.

Yeah that's kind of interesting. More of the philosophical take on damnation. But could just as well be fuel for a body of "godless angels" whose patrons have died.

The fact that they're stuck in a battle with demons and would need a lot of new Angels falling to keep up numbers gives me an idea.

I think the idea that the devil footsoldiers are mortal souls and the fallen angels rarely risk themselves is enough explanation.

Individual demons all have their own motivations of course, though demons would be more likely to forcefully take someone's soul through methods like trap the soul, soul bind, and binding, or just straight up body snatching with demonic possession, rather than through some kind of contract that they, really, have no method to enforce.

That's a fair distinction. Devils tempt, demons possess. Outside the Material Plane, demons might simply consume a soul to increase their own power. Could be a very "vore" thing where demons become bigger and badder by consuming souls (including other demons, among them mortal souls that have become demons). Which reinforces the attraction of a devil's temptation -- yeah, you'll end up in Baator, but the alternative is you'll be out in the wild and your soul will get eaten by a demon.

[Crake]

That's a fair distinction. Devils tempt, demons possess. Outside the Material Plane, demons might simply consume a soul to increase their own power. Could be a very "vore" thing where demons become bigger and badder by consuming souls (including other demons, among them mortal souls that have become demons). Which reinforces the attraction of a devil's temptation -- yeah, you'll end up in Baator, but the alternative is you'll be out in the wild and your soul will get eaten by a demon.

I... Uhh... once had a demon consume 100,000 souls all at once, and gave him 10 xp for each one using the dark crafting xp conversion in BoVD >.>... He instantly become a demon lord. Still, to his credit, he set up a soul trap 1000 years in the past and convinced an island of amazonians to worship him shortly after their goddess died in a planar war... That campaign was wild.

Point is, yes, consuming souls like cheerios is also something demons could do

[Mordante]

The way how I play it is that demons are more a force of negative nature. They are unthinking brutes that act purely on instinct. Devils are sentient beings, who can build societies of their own. Devils are mostly not about brute force, they are more prone to use deception. Think Faust.

IMHO a demon can't die it can be defeated and it will be banished but it will return and if left unchecked it will become powerful again. Devils for the most part can breed/create offspring.

[Crake]

The way how I play it is that demons are more a force of negative nature. They are unthinking brutes that act purely on instinct. Devils are sentient beings, who can build societies of their own. Devils are mostly not about brute force, they are more prone to use deception. Think Faust.

IMHO a demon can't die it can be defeated and it will be banished but it will return and if left unchecked it will become powerful again. Devils for the most part can breed/create offspring.

Actually, the primary method of reproduction for devils is taking souls damned to hell and churning them through the infernal engine, where they come out the other side as lemures, and, should they perform well enough, they can be promoted to a more conscious state of devilhood. All fiends are capable of breeding and creating half-fiend spawn however, demon or devil alike.

As for demons, I think people need to get used to removing the "unthinking" part from demons. Demons are very much thinking, cunning, wily, and wicked in their ways. What they ARE however, is highly impulsive. If you consider demons and devils on the myers briggs personality types, Devils are hardcore thinkers, while demons are hardcore feelers.

[Mordante]

Actually, the primary method of reproduction for devils is taking souls damned to hell and churning them through the infernal engine, where they come out the other side as lemures, and, should they perform well enough, they can be promoted to a more conscious state of devilhood. All fiends are capable of breeding and creating half-fiend spawn however, demon or devil alike.

As for demons, I think people need to get used to removing the "unthinking" part from demons. Demons are very much thinking, cunning, wily, and wicked in their ways. What they ARE however, is highly impulsive. If you consider demons and devils on the myers briggs personality types, Devils are hardcore thinkers, while demons are hardcore feelers.

Maybe it's not according to D&D rules. However the DM is always right. But in my world devils a race and society whom has very or little contact with the rest of the world. They are not that interested in humans, elves, dwarfs etc. Devils have their own kingdoms, cities, laws etc.

Also Meyers Briggs is highly questionable. I don't see much value in it.

[Eldan]

The reason why devils sign contracts for souls is, for me, quite easy: it's how players interact with them. Devils buy souls because that's a plot hook. So that's their mode of reproduction. Devils having children gives the occasional plot hook, but much less than "buy back the soul of the quest giver" or "person you slighted earlier in the campaign comes back for revenge with much more power after selling their soul".

[Crake]

Maybe it's not according to D&D rules. However the DM is always right. But in my world devils a race and society whom has very or little contact with the rest of the world. They are not that interested in humans, elves, dwarfs etc. Devils have their own kingdoms, cities, laws etc.

I mean, yeah sure, but we are talking about the standard D&D planescape setting, so...

Also Meyers Briggs is highly questionable. I don't see much value in it.

You're missing the point, taking a meyers briggs test might be questionable, but the traits they talk about are observable, quantifiable traits. I'm not saying go take a test, but devils being thinkers and demons being feelers, whats questionable about that?

[Particle_Man]

Maybe another way to look at it is at their good and neutral parallels.

What are LG outsiders like? What are CG outsiders like?

What are LN outsiders like? What are CN outsiders like?

That might give some idea as to how LE outsiders differ from CE outsiders.

[Drelua]

Right right, I was more speaking on like, a macro scale. Individual demons all have their own motivations of course, though demons would be more likely to forcefully take someone's soul through methods like trap the soul, soul bind, and binding, or just straight up body snatching with demonic possession, rather than through some kind of contract that they, really, have no method to enforce. Devils have the pact primeval that ensures an individual signing a faustian pact will have their soul damned to baator to be churned through the infernal soul engine, demons on the other hand must enforce contracts themselves, either through some kind of binding magic (see below), or through force should the contract be broken, though, at that point, if the demon can just do it through force, why not just start there?

Fiends of corruption and blasphemy are two good methods for demons to be able to supernaturally bind a victim's soul to themselves, but they're something a demon would need to invest time and experience into learning, so it's not something just any demon could do on a whim.

Hm, I had completely forgotten how the pact primeval works, it's been years since I flipped through either fiendish codex. The idea of demons having very different methods of interacting with other planes is interesting, too many things have whichever show up just as a thing to fight. The idea of devils mainly wanting to corrupt mortals while demons will only do that if ripping off your face is not currently an option, and they would like to trick you into assisting them into face ripping range through some ritual, is an interesting way to differentiate them. If demons don't have a reliable way to get your soul when you die, unless they can turn you chaotic evil, then just devouring you at their earliest opportunity makes a sort of sense.

I'm going to rethink the details of that character's deal, this thread is giving me a lot of ideas. Demons can certainly be smart, but it's sort of a predator's cunning, used just to get their teeth into you. Devils might want you to think you're their friend, and be hesitant to resort to violence since someone they kill is someone they can't use. I feel like they're very distinct in the ways their home planes are set up, but once you start interacting with them all that falls away and it's just a big scary monster. Focusing on the ways they act rather than their stats seems like an easier, but more effective way than fiddling with stats to make them entirely different sorts of threats. Getting rid of a demon should be a different sort of mission than getting rid of a devil, I think.

Regarding MBTI, it's worth noting that it was invented by someone with zero training in psychology, and a history of writing some extremely racist books. Not much is known about her, but from what I've seen none of it's good. Completely get what you mean though, the thinking versus feeling thing is valid here. It's just when it's used on people that it gets questionable to me.

[Elves]

This has been mostly on the conceptual side so far, but I'm also thinking about mechanics. Say you were going to replace their summon baatezu/summon tan'ari abilities with a very thematic ability that brought out the fallen angel/mutating chaos monster themes, any ideas? One thing suggested by above would be to give baatezu a temptation ability and tan'ari a consume souls ability.

[Crake]

This has been mostly on the conceptual side so far, but I'm also thinking about mechanics. Say you were going to replace their summon baatezu/summon tan'ari abilities with a very thematic ability that brought out the fallen angel/mutating chaos monster themes, any ideas? One thing suggested by above would be to give baatezu a temptation ability and tan'ari a consume souls ability.

I think the demon's summon tanar'ri ability fits perfectly with the notion that demons are endless in number, and it's also worth noting that their ability to summon more demons is taken into their CR. I can understand the desire to give devils something different, but it would have to be a rather substantial ability to make up for it, perhaps something that gives them disposable minions in a similar way that a summon would, maybe they can call upon an assortment of NPCs that they've made pacts with, who's CR equals the devils they would otherwise have been able to summon?

[Silly Name]

I think the demon's summon tanar'ri ability fits perfectly with the notion that demons are endless in number, and it's also worth noting that their ability to summon more demons is taken into their CR. I can understand the desire to give devils something different, but it would have to be a rather substantial ability to make up for it, perhaps something that gives them disposable minions in a similar way that a summon would, maybe they can call upon an assortment of NPCs that they've made pacts with, who's CR equals the devils they would otherwise have been able to summon?

That's honestly a bit of an hassle as a GM, as you then have to come up with various NPCs statblocks of assorted CR. You could have some premades, but they would still produce a very big list with very big character sheets as we go up in level.
Being able to refer to Monster Manual entries is very useful, especially if you have some familiarity with the various summoned creatures.

Assuming temptation and corruption is the theme we want to stick with, my first instinct is to translate it into battle with charms and mind-affecting abilities. The kind of supernatural abilities that make it easier for devils to convince mortals to make a deal.

[Crake]

That's honestly a bit of an hassle as a GM, as you then have to come up with various NPCs statblocks of assorted CR. You could have some premades, but they would still produce a very big list with very big character sheets as we go up in level.
Being able to refer to Monster Manual entries is very useful, especially if you have some familiarity with the various summoned creatures.

Perhaps for the more line-warrior devils this is true, but for the villain of an adventure, I think it's fair game.

Assuming temptation and corruption is the theme we want to stick with, my first instinct is to translate it into battle with charms and mind-affecting abilities. The kind of supernatural abilities that make it easier for devils to convince mortals to make a deal.

The pact primeval requires that there be absolutely no charming or magical coercion involved, otherwise the contract is completely null and void, so charms and mind-affecting would be the last thing devils would want.

[Silly Name]

Perhaps for the more line-warrior devils this is true, but for the villain of an adventure, I think it's fair game.

True, but at that point it's less of a special ability and more of a web of resources that any villain should have. It's no different from humanoid villains calling in favours, using their minions or exerting influence through various means.

Now that I think of it, for lesser devils/frontline warriors, we could create a few "Imprisoned Soul"-type monsters that they can call forth to aid in combat or other missions. Different versions would be at different CR and have different abilities, hinting at what kind of person they were in life, but by now they are unrecognisable after who knows how many years spent in servitude of a devil. This could even be the first step to devilhood for mortal souls, eliminating lemures: spend a certain amount of time in service to hellish powers, and once you've proved yourself you get promoted. I think it would be a tad more appealing than "get turned into a ooze-like monstrosity that's gonna get tortured until it's completely stripped of personality and memories".

The pact primeval requires that there be absolutely no charming or magical coercion involved, otherwise the contract is completely null and void, so charms and mind-affecting would be the last thing devils would want.

Since those are non-standard D&D devils by now, I guess we could just rule in this hypothetical alteration there's no Pact Primeval, or it contains some loophole the devils have learnt to exploit. But that's a bit cheap, I agree. I still think at this point playing in the theme of corruption and temptation would work, though, but I can't really think of any special ability that fits neatly.

[Crake]

Since those are non-standard D&D devils by now, I guess we could just rule in this hypothetical alteration there's no Pact Primeval, or it contains some loophole the devils have learnt to exploit. But that's a bit cheap, I agree. I still think at this point playing in the theme of corruption and temptation would work, though, but I can't really think of any special ability that fits neatly.

Combat-wise, perhaps not, but utility wise, abilities that allow devils to fulfill basic mortal desires without the need for a contract of some kind, as a sort of foot in the door ability, things like imbue with spell ability, or creation-type abilities, pathfinder has the spellcasting contract spell, which is like imbue with spell ability on steroids, maybe allow it to transfer some uses of it's own SLAs, though now at this point I'm basically describing the fiend of corruption and fiend of blasphemy prestige classes.

[liquidformat]

It seems to me all devils should have Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive as class skills. Currently that isn't true, Chain Devils for example only have intimidate. Also for the more beat stick melee devils they should have intimidate. From a modification point of view this isn't much of a change but it falls more in line with devils.

Decipher Script, Forgery, and maybe Slight of Hand should also be common on many devils I would imagine. After all they are supposed to be masters at creating and understanding contracts (Decipher Script, all about that fine print). Forgery would be used for things like turning the decretive boarder of your contract into 'fine print' also for devious alterations before both parties have signed the contracts. Slight of Hand would be used for things like swapping out or slipping in extra pages to contracts before they are signed.

On the other hand, more powerful demons might have bluff or intimidate and sense motives but diplomacy and the other skills don't seem very relevant to them.

[Bohandas]

Regarding demons and souls, I think their main concern is less about claiming souls for the abyss and more about making sure they don't get claimed for baator. So most temptation they would do would be aimed at causing people who are already evil to become chaotic, as well as sabotaging the stability of tyrannical empires (not merely the stability of regimes mind you, of the stability of the empires themselves, ESPECIALLY if there are a lot of regime changes, as a Tarquin style parade of revolutions could be a very efficient machine for breeding cruelty and obesience. Hatred for the cruelty of the old boss breeds slavish devotion to the new boss but the new boss is the same as the old boss and so the cycle repeats. The most direct solution to break the cycle is to desteoy the infrastructure of governance, so that there can't be any boss)

[liquidformat]

Regarding demons and souls, I think their main concern is less about claiming souls for the abyss and more about making sure they don't get claimed for baator. So most temptation they would do would be aimed at causing people who are already evil to become chaotic, as well as sabotaging the stability of tyrannical empires (not merely the stability of regimes mind you, of the stability of the empires themselves, ESPECIALLY if there are a lot of regime changes, as a Tarquin style parade of revolutions could be a very efficient machine for breeding cruelty and obesience. Hatred for the cruelty of the old boss breeds slavish devotion to the new boss but the new boss is the same as the old boss and so the cycle repeats. The most direct solution to break the cycle is to desteoy the infrastructure of governance, so that there can't be any boss)

It should be not letting anyone else claim the souls not just Baator, they equally don't want the gods to have souls either. So if they can corrupt you to CE great if not eating your soul is just as good.

[Elves]

The word "devil" apparently means slanderer which makes the emphasis of the temptation aspect for them appropriate.

[MR_Anderson]

The easiest and most reliable way to differ between Devils and Demons for your players is...

1) to have Demons driven by emotion so much that their emotions basically extend through their will to do evil, in such they take to the Chaotic Alignment that they are given.

2) to have Devils in much more control, if not absolute control of their emotions. This makes them in control of their will through their mind, an evil mind. Making Devils not prone to Chaos, but rather being creatures of structure and order, Lawful.

It is almost as if that Demons could spawn from any emotional disturbance, but Devils require a willful choice of an actual being knowing what they are doing to become a Devil.