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Thread: Warlock's spell slots
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2021-04-04, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Warlock's spell slots
I'm in the process of making a backup character and I really like the Warlock, but I'm hung up on the spells slots - it looks like a pathetically tiny amount of spells!! With so few uses, I'm not sure how to best use them - how can they even be counted on, when it seems like they'll not be available when it matters?
Granted, I haven't actually played a Warlock. Maybe this is all in my head, and their multitude of other abilities does the legwork and spells are just like, a quirky trait. But I just have in my head a situation like "ok super important time, let's use one of my two spells I get."
"They save"
Well damn.
How do warlocks play? Is this a problem?
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2021-04-04, 08:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
Warlock pact slots refresh on a short, not long rest.
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2021-04-04, 09:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-04, 09:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
Unlike other spellcasters, you do have good option when you don't want (or can't) use slots. Eldritch Blast (with all the invocation that go with it) is closer to what martials are doing than to spellcasting. Even then, you're supposed to get 2 short rests per long rest, so it's 6 spells per day, about one big spell in every fight you'll get into, assuming you aren't using them for utility rather than combat.
Warlock is closer to an Eldritch Knight than it is to a wizard.It's Eberron, not ebberon.
It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.
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2021-04-04, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
It comes down to how your DM runs combats. If they run one or two super deadly combats per day, with no rest between, warlock is going to feel pretty anemic. If they run closer to 6+ combats with a couple of short rests, warlock will feel amazing.
The key with those warlock spells is to not take something that is going to target one enemy and feel bad if they save, unless that is a HUGE effect if they fail. You want to make use of their natural upcasting, you want to take AoE effects or spells like Hold Person that gain targets as you level up. One person might save, but if you can tag three, odds are someone will fail.Pokemon friend code : 3067-5701-8746
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2021-04-04, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
Warlocks can be built to barely need spell slots, similar to a Fighter. The primary way is focusing on Eldritch Blast via invocations, but you can also build a character focused on weapons.
The spell slots are typically used to supplement your way of fighting in this case.
Think of your spell slots like a Fighter's Action Surge: for this turn only, do something more than just shooting Eldritch Blast/swinging a weapon. This is common with spells that buff you instead of just doing a save or suck spell, such as Darkness/Shadow of Moil to make you hard to hit, or Hex to increase damage.
And for the majority of the earlier levels, you get 2 spell slots, while a fighter only gets 1 action surge. They both recharge on a short rest, however.
Now, in a game where there is only one major fight for long rest, both a Fighter and Warlock will have difficulties with this because they are so limited. But in games with a couple of short rests per long rest, you can have less fear of using your spell slots because you'll be able to rest and get more.
Overall, use them to complement your typical form of offense, instead of them being your main option.
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2021-04-04, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
You really really need to talk with your GM (and the other players).
A warlock that get 6-8 spell slots per day is much more fun to play than a warlock that get 2-4 spell slot per day (in which case I would probably advise multiclassing otherwise that might be a frustrating campaign for you).
If your GM hate short rests, the houserule "convert short rest ressources into long rest ressources by tripling them" (so 6 spell slots per day for the warlock) works quite well.
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2021-04-04, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
In the DMG there is a spell point variant that converts slots to a pool of points. Comparing the spell point equivalent of pact magic slots to spell casting slots reveals that pact magic has about 1/3 the spell points of spell casting. Therefore, without a short rest, it's pretty bad at 1/3 the spell points, and every short rest adds another 1/3 spell point equivalent of a caster. Making 2 short rests a day the break even point.
It has been my experience at tables that short rests are rarely done more than once a day using default rest rules. There are however rest variants that turn the 8hr night's sleep into a short rest and a long rest is multiple days. Warlocks flip to being very powerful in those situations when there are many more short rests between long rests.
Lastly, if you really wanted to play warlock in a game that rarely short rests, one magic item makes a huge difference. Ring of spell storing. Actually, it's so good for warlock, it's even amazing if there are short rests happening. The beauty is that the warlock can store lower level spells that are great but hard to justify blowing a high level slot on when pact magic gets >=1 level beyond the spell.
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2021-04-04, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
It's really not so bad, it looks like only two slots, but realistically you wouldn't be burning all of the slots on another caster between rests either, so it'll likely be 4-6 slots a day depending on your table.
Besides that you need to remember that you have invocations (a lot of which are simply at will castings of certain spells) and both a patron and pact to supply you with things to do and use. In practice in my experience Warlocks only feel as limited as you fear later in tier two, just because other casters end up with so many slots. Mechanically it isn't a problem really and you get used to it for timing when to use them.For D&D 5e Builds, Tips, News and more see our Youtube Channel Dork Forge
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2021-04-04, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
Yes. Other spellcasting feature casters get roughly roughly 1 spell of each available spell slot level per short rest. Warlocks get 2, and they're both maximum spell slot level.
So at 10th level, spellcasting feature casters get 5 spells per short rest, one each from levels 1-5. Warlocks get 2, but they're both level 5. Having 2 of top spell level is great, but the lack of those lower level spell slots is why warlocks get Invocations as well.
That's the absolute worst point of comparison for warlocks by the way. Before ten the ratio of spells is better, and after ten warlocks get a third spell slot per short rest.Last edited by Tanarii; 2021-04-04 at 10:27 AM.
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2021-04-04, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
This ^ is very true. Other magic items like Rod of the Pact Keeper and Rod of Absorption will really up your game as well. I played a Celestial Tome Warlock with a ring of spell storing and a rod of absorption, and the dm had to politely ask me to quit being an unstoppable force of nature.
I’d also add that the inclusion of Tasha’s casting feats allows for some very powerful/versatile builds. Basically just extra (limited utility) spell slots. Start stacking them up, though...
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2021-04-04, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
I gave my Warlocks an extra spell slot on level 5 and Patron-based spell-like invocations (the Bane-class as at-will) for free and it worked out pretty well. You still didn't use them often but at least you could occasionally afford the action economy of using those amazing reactions on your list, instead of having to use all your slots on long duration Concentration-spells to enhance your basic functioning. As written, Warlock is pigeonholed (unfairly) so that it basically lacks half its spell list 'cause it can't use them until maybe on Tier 3. It's so far away from a real caster it's not even funny.
If I got to write it ground up, it either wouldn't have spell slots at all (move those cool spells to Invocations) so as to avoid the bookkeepnig and finnicky mechanics, or it would have more of those. Since it's easier to do, I just give it more of 'em. Current parties have two casty Warlocks (Fiend Pact of the Tome and Celestial Pact of the Chain) alongside Bard, Wizard and a couple of Druids and they aren't at all overshining their counterparts. On the contrary, they're still mostly Eldritch Blast bots but they get to be a bit more magical at least; at three short rests they're about matching the other casters so they mostly have trouble with really tough fights where they can't nova slots like real casters to raise their contribution level above the par. 90% of the time they're fine or even strong.Last edited by Eldariel; 2021-04-04 at 10:53 AM.
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2021-04-04, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
If you're really worried about lack of spell slots, you could always build a coffeelock...
But having run and played Warlocks, in a party of all long rest dependent classes, it kinda sucked, as I was asking for a rest before anyone else really wanted to - but they understood my desire. In a party with more short rest dependent classes, we naturally gravitated our gameplay so that we all needed a short rest around the same time.
As a DM, I'm cognizant when I have a druid, monk or warlock in the party, and they're the most dependent to keep having 'fun'. Fighters enjoy Action Surge, but it isn't a must have every fight. Clerics enjoy Channel Divinity, but again, it's not usually a must have (and things like Life Clerics CD are only a must have if the DM has miscalculated the encounter, or the party has a really bad string of bad luck - but that doesn't typically happen more than once a long rest, so...)
My play advice is to basically 'keep a slot on hand at all times, if possible.' At first level, that doesn't matter, you only have 1 - feel free to burn it on your first combat, probably on Hex. But starting at 2nd level, use 1 slot and keep the second in reserve for when the fecal matter hits the fan. Or, if you know the party is going to rest asap after the encounter, so you'll get the slots back. - Communication is key here - know the needs of the rest of the party.Trollbait extraordinaire
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2021-04-04, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
I actually disagree.
Ring of spell storing is one of the less usefull items for a pure warlock compared to other casters.
This is because you have to cast the spells into the ring. The space taken by the spell is the level of the spell slot used to cast it. This means that a 9th level warlock can only put one spell into a ring of spell storing of ANY level since they only have 5th level spell slots so whatever they cast will take up 5 spaces even if it is only a 1st level spell slot like shield.
However, if you know you have one spell you will always use then it does effectively give you one more spell slot for the day though the rod of the pact keeper does this better and increases your save DCs for spells you cast.
A 9th level warlock/1st level sorcerer multiclass only has 1st and 5th level slots - so they can either put in some 1st level spells OR put in one spell cast at 5th level. The 1 level sorcerer dip does allow the warlock (say hexblade) to put hex and shield among other things in a ring using the sorcerer spell slots but otherwise they only get one spell.
If you have a party with a range of useful spells and are willing to fill the ring for you then it can work but for a warlock on their own the ring has some problems.Last edited by Keravath; 2021-04-04 at 11:18 AM.
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2021-04-04, 02:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-04, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
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2021-04-04, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
For this reason I honestly think Warlocks are better off spending their Pact Magic spells on out-of-combat utility stuff and/or things you cast on yourself or friendlies (Misty Step, Fly, etc.). Multitarget offense is also a good solution, but there's an argument to be made to rely pretty strictly on Cantrips and and at-will invocations for offense (though I'm not sure off the top of my head how many at-will invocations are offensive).
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2021-04-04, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
I agree. Also, the PC has multiple RAW build paths to facilitate effective use of the item. The aforementioned Sorcerer/Wizard/anycaster dip for level 1 slots, racial casting features/Magic Initiate/Fey- or Shadow- touched/other casting feats, to name a few. Rod of Absorption paired with Ring of Spell Storing can be a borderline-broken combo as well.
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2021-04-04, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
If an upcast level 5 shield took up 1 slot but had the counter spell level of 5 then it would be too strong. The obvious RAF ruling is to allow for spells without upcast effects like shield and misty step to store at their lowest level and cast at their lowest level while maintaining that spells with scaling like AoA store at their highest level.
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2021-04-04, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
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2021-04-04, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
Warlocks are extremely terrible spellcasters. The entire class is built around being a spell user that doesn't actually use spell slots but has no actual class features that make this a viable concept.
Instead, they are pathetically weak archer.
Never be a Warlock past level 3.Last edited by DarknessEternal; 2021-04-04 at 03:43 PM.
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2021-04-04, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
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2021-04-04, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
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2021-04-04, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
Non-combat encounters should use resources and "trigger" short rests too. But it's definitely valid to plan to have slot use options for them.
I've seen good non-combat use by Tier 2 warlocks of Charm Person, Invisibility, Fly, all of which are common for 'locks to hold onto because they scale, and they have more spells known than they can possibly cast at once. That encourages them to spread their spells out over multiple use-case scenarios.
Of course, if your DM doesn't think of out of combat as "encounters" and you can easily take your short rest breaks any time, or you have longer than usual adventuring days with more than 2 short rests, the ability to keep going all day long are make the Warlock really strong. Especially in the first case, even non-scalable spells (e.g. Suggestion) are worth holding onto as a spell known.Last edited by Tanarii; 2021-04-04 at 03:51 PM.
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2021-04-04, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
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2021-04-04, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
With the possible exception of the Druid, for whom you need to do your homework for both spell lists and a list of beastforms and their stats, Warlock probably require the most forward thinking of any spellcaster class. This is because your number one priority in everything you do is Being Efficient.
The example you give above - you cast a spell, the enemy saves, you're done until after the fight - is an example of a Warlock who unfortunately tried to be a Sorcerer; just pick an AoE damage spell, drop it twice, and hope everything has stopped moving when you're done. It rarely works, if ever.
The way to play a Warlock means you need to carefully pick your spells and make sure you get the most use out of them all the time, every time. That means taking long duration spells that cover a large area, and being really good at concentrating on them so that they stay around for as long as possible. You also prepare cantrips that can control the battlefield in order to move enemies into and around your hazardous concentration spell, 'double dipping' to cause damage in the first instance and also shift them into position where they'll take more damage next turn, too.
It requires a lot of planning, and the willingness to find a 'trick' and use it over and over again because you seldom have opportunity to learn a new 'trick'. It also means picking up a few abilities that you can use out of a fight in order to support the party in niche but always useful ways and trying not to get offended if it doesn't come up very often, and using your imagination to really push your non-combat cantrips to the limit of what they're meant to do because you don't have the Clerics' huge spell list to pick from, or the Wizards' ability to scribe new spells on a whim when you need them.
You're a magical Survivalist, running on your wits and being prepared to do terrible things in order to outsmart problems that other classes would just throw a few spell slots at and be done with. You learn what is possibly the greatest and most difficult thing that there is to know about being a magic user - how to do things without using magic.
And if it wasn't absolutely clear, I *love* playing a Warlock. It takes imagination and occasionally having to sit down and come to terms with the fact that you're going to be magically overshadowed by the other spellcasting classes in a straight-up duel, but when you pull it off and your carefully planned combination of spells, cantrips and Invocations come together it's immensely satisfying and can create some stunning in-game moments.... Because you've planned ahead for them, and no one else even saw it coming.
The only drawback that I'll repeat from above is what Quietus said above; if your DM or your party don't like taking a lot of short rests, you will feel a little bit left out. This happens to me occasionally - I'm playing a Tome Warlock in a party that includes a Druid, Necromancer, Cleric and a couple of Paladin who like to keep medium-duration spells and abilities running as long as possible for re-casting, and they don't often like to stop for cat-naps unless they have to. It means that I either spend a lot of down-time looking for Pearls of Power, or Rings of Spell Storing, or otherwise I have to be very economic with spells and rely more heavily on my 'tricks'.
Ask your GM and/or party first if this will be a problem for them. If they're not prepared to take little breaks regularly, and you're concerned that you're going to be stuck just pinging Eldritch Blasts every turn or are worried that you're either too new or unfamiliar with the game to really exploit your resources.... Maybe don't play Warlock.
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2021-04-04, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-04, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
That's why it's very important to monitor your Pact, Patron, and Invocations. Choose the ones you will have fun playing. If you expect to be casting Eldritch Blast a lot, Repelling Blast is attractive for the strategic value and help against boredom. If your game has a lot of roleplaying social encounters, Mask of Many Faces gains value. If you feel the need to be casting spells a lot, Tome Pact gives you Rituals, and Misty Visions gives you at will Silent Image.
FeyGreat Old One Patron gives you limited Telepathy for undetectable communication. Genie Patron gives you your own bag of holding. Players joke about wanting to transport someone secretly via bag of holding or portable hole, but the need to breathe makes it impossible. With Genie Patron you can do that no problem at 10th level.
Spells matter too, but the point is by focusing on the fun of Warlock as a whole on those game days where it's only one fight you won't feel gimped.
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2021-04-04, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warlock's spell slots
I get the point about the spell durations. We've done that a time or two with those 10-min duration spells. But all of those classes except Necromancer have short rest resources (Druid - wildshape, Cleric & Paladins - channel divinity). It would seem once those spells drop, they would be craving short rests, especially if you use Tasha's variant where you can spend CDs (1 to 3 per LR I think) to recover spell slots.
I'm not disagreeing here, just wondering if you could leverage this into more rests.Emongnome
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2021-04-04, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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