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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    I choose luck, it being my strong roll and logical when i have no idea what I am doing IC (1d6+1)[5]
    GNU Terry Pratchett

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Oh gosh, how did I get so dang far behind? Catching up now.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Because of a flurry of activity on my part at two in the morning.

    Co-Founder of LUTAS.
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    A novella about a wizard and a rock star, cross-dimensional travel, and healing wounds neither knew were there.

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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lentrax View Post
    Because of a flurry of activity on my part at two in the morning.
    Eh, it was both of us plus Illven in this case. But yeah, that's how this can go - sometimes a player or two and the GM are on simultaneously, and a bunch of posts happen while other players are away. Unlike a D&D play by post there's just the scene open to delay things for mechanics, once the RP opens up, it's just all on who's on when for how fast or slow things go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illven View Post
    [Sophia, roll an allure or skill check to deceive that your vessel is a lamp and not a ring]
    Kind of wish you hadn't just revealed that to the other players before I could do a little reveal whenever she first uses her Magic Lamp advantage . But oh well.

    Strong Allure and Harem Outfit, but I don't think I can apply any of her other allure bonuses.
    (1d6+2)[8]
    Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!

    "When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Colossus in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Eh, it was both of us plus Illven in this case. But yeah, that's how this can go - sometimes a player or two and the GM are on simultaneously, and a bunch of posts happen while other players are away. Unlike a D&D play by post there's just the scene open to delay things for mechanics, once the RP opens up, it's just all on who's on when for how fast or slow things go.


    Kind of wish you hadn't just revealed that to the other players before I could do a little reveal whenever she first uses her Magic Lamp advantage . But oh well.

    Strong Allure and Harem Outfit, but I don't think I can apply any of her other allure bonuses.
    [roll0]
    Sorry, my bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deme View Post
    One day, we must all have our characters butchered by romhacks face our ends.
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    Won as Good Mayans on a science victory GMR 4. Won as Sweden on a science victory GMR 7. Won as Desert England on a concession victory GMR 8 Lost as Poland in GMR 3. Lost as Japan in GMR 5, Surrendered as Korea in GMR 10. Surrendered as Bad Maya in GMR 11, Lost as Shoshone in GMR 13.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illven View Post
    Sorry, my bad.
    Eh, it's fine, if it were that important I'd have thought to specifically ask you to keep it a secret.
    Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!

    "When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Massive property damage on day one.

    I think that is a record for a game I am in, AV.

    Co-Founder of LUTAS.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    AvatarVecna's Avatar

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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lentrax View Post
    Massive property damage on day one.

    I think that is a record for a game I am in, AV.
    Welcome to the rest of the game. Morrigan is inspired by Milo Murphy's Law, things are going to go absurdly cartoonishly wrong around her.

    I won't be pulling out a "lightning from a distant storm" every time to get my rain magnet bonus, partly cuz that's kinda cheap and partly cuz I don't want too many repeat performances. But something along these lines is probably gonna be pretty common. >.>


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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Welcome to the rest of the game. Morrigan is inspired by Milo Murphy's Law, things are going to go absurdly cartoonishly wrong around her.

    I won't be pulling out a "lightning from a distant storm" every time to get my rain magnet bonus, partly cuz that's kinda cheap and partly cuz I don't want too many repeat performances. But something along these lines is probably gonna be pretty common. >.>
    Oh boy, between Morrigan being a lightning rod, and Sophia's pushiness and whimsy, and whatever trouble Brooklyn decides to get up to, this school is not going to like our little group here, is it?

    I should say though Vecna, either you forgot to list an advantage, or you did your math wrong. I get +7 total from the advantages you listed, not +9. Not that it's likely to make a difference in this case.
    Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!

    "When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Oh boy, between Morrigan being a lightning rod, and Sophia's pushiness and whimsy, and whatever trouble Brooklyn decides to get up to, this school is not going to like our little group here, is it?

    I should say though Vecna, either you forgot to list an advantage, or you did your math wrong. I get +7 total from the advantages you listed, not +9. Not that it's likely to make a difference in this case.
    I initially had Accident-Prone in the list, but it was pointed out privately that Morrigan isn't really in danger in this scene so I removed it...and forgot to adjust the total. I'll go do that now. >.>

    Also, it's probably good that the protagonist is an extra-powerful water sorceress, because it means the school probably has really good insurance against water damage.


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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    So with a plus 14, I'm not even going to bother rolling.

    Sophia gains +3 VP with Maya.

    In addition, Sophia's sapphire ring ends up with, order determined by the order on the cast list, and skipping Sophia (1d4)[1]

    Morrigan. Use it well.
    Last edited by Illven; 2021-04-13 at 10:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deme View Post
    One day, we must all have our characters butchered by romhacks face our ends.
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    Won as Good Mayans on a science victory GMR 4. Won as Sweden on a science victory GMR 7. Won as Desert England on a concession victory GMR 8 Lost as Poland in GMR 3. Lost as Japan in GMR 5, Surrendered as Korea in GMR 10. Surrendered as Bad Maya in GMR 11, Lost as Shoshone in GMR 13.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Illven's Avatar

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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Actually I should be seeing if Feathersnow uses a use of sealed power.

    (1d6)[6]
    Quote Originally Posted by Deme View Post
    One day, we must all have our characters butchered by romhacks face our ends.
    Avatar by Honest Tiefling

    Won as Good Mayans on a science victory GMR 4. Won as Sweden on a science victory GMR 7. Won as Desert England on a concession victory GMR 8 Lost as Poland in GMR 3. Lost as Japan in GMR 5, Surrendered as Korea in GMR 10. Surrendered as Bad Maya in GMR 11, Lost as Shoshone in GMR 13.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    AvatarVecna's Avatar

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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Illven View Post
    In addition, Sophia's sapphire ring ends up with, order determined by the order on the cast list, and skipping Sophia [roll0]

    Morrigan. Use it well.
    The worst person to find it, on both sides of the fourth wall. Oh no...


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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Illven View Post
    In addition, Sophia's sapphire ring ends up with, order determined by the order on the cast list, and skipping Sophia [roll0]

    Morrigan. Use it well.
    Well now, looks like Morrigan's luck isn't all bad after all, is it?

    So, not sure if anyone else has used this advantage before, but I'm thinking that come late this scene or start of next scene, the ring appears near Morrigan somewhere, and then Sophia is whisked over to her and explains the situation. Vecna can have Morrigan give Sophie whatever instructions/request she wants in Morrigan's post, with advantages that he wants her using spelled out alongside Morrigan's, and I'll still make an IC post for Sophia doing whatever it is she's been asked to do. Sound good?
    Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!

    "When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Illven's Avatar

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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Well now, looks like Morrigan's luck isn't all bad after all, is it?

    So, not sure if anyone else has used this advantage before, but I'm thinking that come late this scene or start of next scene, the ring appears near Morrigan somewhere, and then Sophia is whisked over to her and explains the situation. Vecna can have Morrigan give Sophie whatever instructions/request she wants in Morrigan's post, with advantages that he wants her using spelled out alongside Morrigan's, and I'll still make an IC post for Sophia doing whatever it is she's been asked to do. Sound good?
    [I already gave her the ring, but I assume it'll take time for it to be rubbed.]

    So some admin rulings. I talked to Techno, thanks to Hypercharged interfering weirdly with Magic lamp.
    Techno made the ruling that someone can only swap ONE of your hypercharged rolls with yours.

    I made the ruling and Techno agrees, that you can't just use magic lamp in the last scene to avoid the drawback. If that happens, the player determined will have control in the first scene next episode.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deme View Post
    One day, we must all have our characters butchered by romhacks face our ends.
    Avatar by Honest Tiefling

    Won as Good Mayans on a science victory GMR 4. Won as Sweden on a science victory GMR 7. Won as Desert England on a concession victory GMR 8 Lost as Poland in GMR 3. Lost as Japan in GMR 5, Surrendered as Korea in GMR 10. Surrendered as Bad Maya in GMR 11, Lost as Shoshone in GMR 13.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Illven View Post
    [I already gave her the ring, but I assume it'll take time for it to be rubbed.]
    That works too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illven View Post
    So some admin rulings. I talked to Techno, thanks to Hypercharged interfering weirdly with Magic lamp.
    Techno made the ruling that someone can only swap ONE of your hypercharged rolls with yours.

    I made the ruling and Techno agrees, that you can't just use magic lamp in the last scene to avoid the drawback. If that happens, the player determined will have control in the first scene next episode.
    Both exactly how I'd figured it would work, as it happens, so sounds good to me . Though I'm a little surprised you got Techno to respond about something like this, since last I checked it looked like he'd left the forums. Guess you just still have contact with him on Steam?
    Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!

    "When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    That works too.


    Both exactly how I'd figured it would work, as it happens, so sounds good to me . Though I'm a little surprised you got Techno to respond about something like this, since last I checked it looked like he'd left the forums. Guess you just still have contact with him on Steam?
    Discord actually, but I could probably contact him on steam.

    That reminds me I gotta ask you a question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deme View Post
    One day, we must all have our characters butchered by romhacks face our ends.
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    Won as Good Mayans on a science victory GMR 4. Won as Sweden on a science victory GMR 7. Won as Desert England on a concession victory GMR 8 Lost as Poland in GMR 3. Lost as Japan in GMR 5, Surrendered as Korea in GMR 10. Surrendered as Bad Maya in GMR 11, Lost as Shoshone in GMR 13.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Spoiler: My thoughts on this ability btw sorry its long
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    I know I've seen commentary on this before...not this specific advantage, but something roughly similar...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    When I look at these abilities, I'm not changing them just based on how it would affect existing characters who use them, but based on what the advantage can do overall. In Touchy Spot's case, it's so easy to activate that it is essentially an always-on +2 to Allure - which, I should point out, is entirely in keeping with how P'ro'shi has used it. When an advantage is basically always-on, I've favored reducing it to +1, under the theory that the consistency and ease of use makes up for it being a lower bonus - that for instance being why Boyish Charm is still good despite providing a lower bonus than other outfit advantages.

    Yes, you're right, if people wanted to, they could force P'ro'shi to take that skill penalty. Nobody has, though, and as Techno said in the YYHC OOC thread, it would be kind of a dick move to do so. And also in theory, anybody building a character with Touchy Spot could dump skill, and the penalty effectively ceases to exist. So, yes, I do think the ability was worth that slight nerf. Maybe if P'ro'shi were being redone with these changes (which nobody has suggested thus far, so I'm not currently expecting it to happen, unless for some reason you decided to have the entirety of YYHC switch to my versions of things), she wouldn't take it due to the nerf - but she should also have better options in the archetypes she actually uses now to replace it if she wants, too. Including, for instance, the obvious choice of the Tentacles! advantage from Eldritch Abomination.
    Again, not really an identical situation, but it's the same issue taking to a bigger degree by virtue of being a 1/ep instead of an at-will. I've been fiddling with my rework, and despite my recent renewed interest in the genie archetype, I left this one on the cutting room floor cuz I don't think it's really fun to take and is a little bit unfun to play against. It makes sense within the fluff well enough, but self-targeting with a SooT effect doesn't make SooT effects any less annoying, at least from my perspective. It's not anywhere near as bad as SooT of course - it's self-targeted so you choose the timing, and it doesn't spill out onto others so you're not ruining the fun for everybody.

    But on the other side we have that weird Touchy Spot issue: deliberately triggering the downside feels like a **** move, especially when you put it up against other 1/ep abilities. JaP steals victory and has the passive ability to let you live rent-free in everybody's heads until you use it .SooT lets you set everybody one scene back in VP. Countless abilities can be spent to turn a failed unopposed into an auto-success. Less Is More lets you piggyback off another's efforts to get a huge bonus. It's all effectively "+1 guaranteed success for you, at no downside", compared to Magic Lamp, which is "maybe +1 success for you, in exchange for -1 success next scene". At least the way I'm designing things (balanced around the higher end powers and bringing everything up), an ability like this is only really worth it if it's giving +12 equivalent for the one scene. In this particular example, a lot of effort has been put into maxing out the ability, and even then Magic Lamp is giving equivalent of +7.

    It just...it doesn't need the follow-up penalty IMO, at least not for my version of things. Honestly even with the balance point that existing HSHC is at, it's definitely one of the weaker 1/ep powers because of the drawback. It'd probably be a bit OP at 2/ep, but a light weakening of the benefit would make it much more acceptable. And that's if it's used optimally, with all your other limited-use powers used up. If it's used early and you've got a pile of non-passives ready for your competition to blow on the power, that's where we get into the Touchy Spot comparison properly. To use the immediate example:

    It's gonna be Episode 1/Scene 3. Morrigan isn't even entirely sure if she's in love with Maya yet, let alone that y'all are her competition in the battlefield of love - she's just trying to survive her first day. There's little in-universe reason to sabotage Sophia's efforts in the next scene, and Morrigan isn't such a bad person that she'd just do that as a natural consequence of being temporarily able to order a genie around. There's definitely things she could ask for (I actually already know what I'm going to request, and it's partially to help make Morrigan's extreme unluckiness even more impressive), so it's not unfeasible that it can fit into the narrative...

    ...but the other side of the coin is that I as a competitor have to decide between letting my opponent autowin a scene for free out of a sense of fair play, or if I put in the narrative work to justify making Sophia use Carry My Books/Hypercharged. And the only reason I wouldn't also be squeezing Overclocked in is because it's literally illegal. But doing so is super-meta-gamey and it's kinda uncomfortable. I abused JaP on Sam cuz that was more a "proof of concept" character, but it's not really fun designing a character who's mechanical focus is sabotaging the other characters, and having that power put in my lap isn't really fun either. But like...I can't throw it away. >.<

    If I were redesigning it to be a more appropriate power for my rework project, I'd probably seriously rework the positive (2/e? 3/e? flat bonus? I'm not sure...), and make it so the downside doesn't let the other player choose if your limited-use powers activate or not. But at least for now, it's not gonna be included in my rework - the idea of a ring being the object of servitude has some fun implications for a romance game (speaking of: since I didn't get to play my ring-bound genie and you're getting to play one, if you win you better damn propose with it ), but giving it mechanical significance has so far been more trouble for me than it's worth to keep the original intent mostly intact while rebalancing it to my satisfaction.


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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    I mean I feel it's just a more extreme overclock.

    Powers that give you bonuses now, in exchange for crashing and burning later.

    I feel the difference between this and someone else picking SooT, is that Zevox is choosing to invoke this rule in exchange for power, while SooT is that you don't get a choice when another player invokes it. (And there's no defense.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Deme View Post
    One day, we must all have our characters butchered by romhacks face our ends.
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    Won as Good Mayans on a science victory GMR 4. Won as Sweden on a science victory GMR 7. Won as Desert England on a concession victory GMR 8 Lost as Poland in GMR 3. Lost as Japan in GMR 5, Surrendered as Korea in GMR 10. Surrendered as Bad Maya in GMR 11, Lost as Shoshone in GMR 13.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: The once and future harem. (HSHC)

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Spoiler: My thoughts on this ability btw sorry its long
    Show
    I know I've seen commentary on this before...not this specific advantage, but something roughly similar...



    Again, not really an identical situation, but it's the same issue taking to a bigger degree by virtue of being a 1/ep instead of an at-will. I've been fiddling with my rework, and despite my recent renewed interest in the genie archetype, I left this one on the cutting room floor cuz I don't think it's really fun to take and is a little bit unfun to play against. It makes sense within the fluff well enough, but self-targeting with a SooT effect doesn't make SooT effects any less annoying, at least from my perspective. It's not anywhere near as bad as SooT of course - it's self-targeted so you choose the timing, and it doesn't spill out onto others so you're not ruining the fun for everybody.

    But on the other side we have that weird Touchy Spot issue: deliberately triggering the downside feels like a **** move, especially when you put it up against other 1/ep abilities. JaP steals victory and has the passive ability to let you live rent-free in everybody's heads until you use it .SooT lets you set everybody one scene back in VP. Countless abilities can be spent to turn a failed unopposed into an auto-success. Less Is More lets you piggyback off another's efforts to get a huge bonus. It's all effectively "+1 guaranteed success for you, at no downside", compared to Magic Lamp, which is "maybe +1 success for you, in exchange for -1 success next scene". At least the way I'm designing things (balanced around the higher end powers and bringing everything up), an ability like this is only really worth it if it's giving +12 equivalent for the one scene. In this particular example, a lot of effort has been put into maxing out the ability, and even then Magic Lamp is giving equivalent of +7.

    It just...it doesn't need the follow-up penalty IMO, at least not for my version of things. Honestly even with the balance point that existing HSHC is at, it's definitely one of the weaker 1/ep powers because of the drawback. It'd probably be a bit OP at 2/ep, but a light weakening of the benefit would make it much more acceptable. And that's if it's used optimally, with all your other limited-use powers used up. If it's used early and you've got a pile of non-passives ready for your competition to blow on the power, that's where we get into the Touchy Spot comparison properly. To use the immediate example:

    It's gonna be Episode 1/Scene 3. Morrigan isn't even entirely sure if she's in love with Maya yet, let alone that y'all are her competition in the battlefield of love - she's just trying to survive her first day. There's little in-universe reason to sabotage Sophia's efforts in the next scene, and Morrigan isn't such a bad person that she'd just do that as a natural consequence of being temporarily able to order a genie around. There's definitely things she could ask for (I actually already know what I'm going to request, and it's partially to help make Morrigan's extreme unluckiness even more impressive), so it's not unfeasible that it can fit into the narrative...

    ...but the other side of the coin is that I as a competitor have to decide between letting my opponent autowin a scene for free out of a sense of fair play, or if I put in the narrative work to justify making Sophia use Carry My Books/Hypercharged. And the only reason I wouldn't also be squeezing Overclocked in is because it's literally illegal. But doing so is super-meta-gamey and it's kinda uncomfortable. I abused JaP on Sam cuz that was more a "proof of concept" character, but it's not really fun designing a character who's mechanical focus is sabotaging the other characters, and having that power put in my lap isn't really fun either. But like...I can't throw it away. >.<

    If I were redesigning it to be a more appropriate power for my rework project, I'd probably seriously rework the positive (2/e? 3/e? flat bonus? I'm not sure...), and make it so the downside doesn't let the other player choose if your limited-use powers activate or not. But at least for now, it's not gonna be included in my rework - the idea of a ring being the object of servitude has some fun implications for a romance game (speaking of: since I didn't get to play my ring-bound genie and you're getting to play one, if you win you better damn propose with it ), but giving it mechanical significance has so far been more trouble for me than it's worth to keep the original intent mostly intact while rebalancing it to my satisfaction.
    Okay, a few things to throw around here. I don't see Magic Lamp as being comparable to Shadow Out of Time, for a pretty important reason: with Shadow Out of Time, another player just takes over my character, and everyone else's, whenever they want, and there's no benefit to us whatsoever in exchange. With Magic Lamp, I get a major power move, and in exchange accept that the next scene, another player gets to decide what my character does. I choose when that happens, get a benefit in exchange, and no one else's characters are affected. On my end, that makes it okay where Shadow Out of Time isn't. (In-character Sophia won't be thrilled with it, since part of her character is that past experience has made her not like the whole "not having a choice" part of someone else using her ring, but as long as Morrigan's not a total jerk about it she'll be fine since it's very temporary.)

    I can see what you're saying about it being unpleasant for the player who gets the power to have to choose whether to take advantage of the opportunity to burn limited use powers. Obviously, my intent is that usually, you won't have that opportunity - I'll save Magic Lamp for a later scene, after Hypercharged and Carry My Books? have been used up, and I'll always use Overclock with it since that's both efficient and has the built-in guarantee that if I haven't used both uses, the second can't get burned. But yes, that's something you can do in this case, and that's part of why I hesitated a while on whether to use it, but ultimately it just felt too appropriate for the moment. So again, I've chosen to accept that. If your concern is upsetting me by doing so, you can put that concern to rest.

    Now, if I were the one creating the advantage, or doing a rework of it, restricting the player who gains control of the Genie from using their limited-use powers is probably a thing I'd strongly consider doing. But it can be played around, and built around - the first Genie build I tinkered with, way back when I was considering joining the game that Techno was running explicitly to test homebrew stuff, also had Magic Lamp, but no other limited-use powers. With nine advantages in this game though, that was a lot harder to achieve, unless I picked advantages from at least three different roll types, which didn't seem like a good idea, so I went with powers I figured I could typically use up before using it.

    Now, does it need that drawback to be balanced? Almost certainly not, I agree. Both since it's once per episode, and as potent as it is there are ways to interact with it (in our own group Fran's allure penalty abilities and Sawa's Misfortune Talisman can put a huge damper on it since it doubles negative modifiers too, and Brooklyn's Less is More can turn the roll into a 50/50 between the two of us if she wants), the risk of losing your limited-use abilities definitely feels excessive. But at the same time, since there's ways to play or build around it, I don't want to go asking Illven to house rule that away. It would feel too much like I was just asking for a power-up to my character.

    (Aside: not a lot of effort when into maximizing that, actually. Applying Eccentric Outfit was just easy, as soon as I saw the Admin Office being mentioned it was clear how I could get Butt In, and I'm basically always going to use Overclock when I use Magic Lamp. If I really wanted to expend a lot of effort to maximize it, I'd have tried to come up with an excuse to add Elemental Affinity, too - or figure out some way to justify all of Sophia's Allure advantages, which would get things up to +20 if I could somehow pull that off. And I did consider trying to do an Allure roll, either with or without Magic Lamp, I just decided it was too difficult to come up with ways to use advantages besides Butt In for that in this particular scenario.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Illven View Post
    I mean I feel it's just a more extreme overclock.

    Powers that give you bonuses now, in exchange for crashing and burning later.

    I feel the difference between this and someone else picking SooT, is that Zevox is choosing to invoke this rule in exchange for power, while SooT is that you don't get a choice when another player invokes it. (And there's no defense.)
    Another way to look at it: reverse Down and Dirty. Playing Tanya, I had to tank a roll to charge up a big modifier off Down and Dirty, but the payoff was that the next roll was almost always an auto-success. Now, Down and Dirty was 2/episode where Magic Lamp is 1, but I felt that Down and Dirty was powerful enough that I dropped it to 1/episode in my balance changes, so yeah, in that respect Magic Lamp feels about right to me.

    Also worth noting: it's not necessarily "probably auto-win one roll, auto-lose another." Since you can swap roll results with Sophia, you also have the option of having Sophia try to succeed at a roll so that you can do that, whether because a roll that she's good at that you're not is offering more VP than one you can hit, or just as a fallback to make it more likely that you get VP for the scene. And of course if you're doing that, well, perhaps we end up both succeeding on the roll and I still get something. That is one thing I like about the design, even though the other player gets the chance to just tell me I lose a roll for a scene, there is an incentive in place not to.
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    I'm gonna preface this with a point about conclusions: my previous post, and this one, aren't about getting you or Illven to get rid of Magic Lamp going forward. I'm more explaining my general thoughts on why I'd probably never take it, and why I'm extremely unlikely to include it in my rework so long as it looks anything remotely like what it looks like currently. There's also a bit of harping about how I don't like playing against it either, for separate reasons both in- and out-of-character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Okay, a few things to throw around here. I don't see Magic Lamp as being comparable to Shadow Out of Time, for a pretty important reason: with Shadow Out of Time, another player just takes over my character, and everyone else's, whenever they want, and there's no benefit to us whatsoever in exchange. With Magic Lamp, I get a major power move, and in exchange accept that the next scene, another player gets to decide what my character does. I choose when that happens, get a benefit in exchange, and no one else's characters are affected. On my end, that makes it okay where Shadow Out of Time isn't. (In-character Sophia won't be thrilled with it, since part of her character is that past experience has made her not like the whole "not having a choice" part of someone else using her ring, but as long as Morrigan's not a total jerk about it she'll be fine since it's very temporary.)
    I know, and I mentioned as such. "It's not anywhere near as bad as SooT of course - it's self-targeted so you choose the timing, and it doesn't spill out onto others so you're not ruining the fun for everybody."

    I can see what you're saying about it being unpleasant for the player who gets the power to have to choose whether to take advantage of the opportunity to burn limited use powers. Obviously, my intent is that usually, you won't have that opportunity - I'll save Magic Lamp for a later scene, after Hypercharged and Carry My Books? have been used up, and I'll always use Overclock with it since that's both efficient and has the built-in guarantee that if I haven't used both uses, the second can't get burned. But yes, that's something you can do in this case, and that's part of why I hesitated a while on whether to use it, but ultimately it just felt too appropriate for the moment. So again, I've chosen to accept that. If your concern is upsetting me by doing so, you can put that concern to rest.
    It's all well and good that you had eight other powers to help you build around avoiding the downsides. I'm not talking about this specific game or this specific character, though, I'm talking about how it's generally bad design to balance powerful mechanics with annoying downsides - and to my eyes, these downsides are particularly annoying (and this mechanic not particularly powerful). Case in point, while this power is nowhere near as unfun to get hit by as SooT (in no small part because you get to choose whether to get hit by it or not), but at least SooT let you choose what advantages you were going to apply, and didn't force you to waste all your per-episode powers on one ****ty roll.

    Now, if I were the one creating the advantage, or doing a rework of it, restricting the player who gains control of the Genie from using their limited-use powers is probably a thing I'd strongly consider doing. But it can be played around, and built around - the first Genie build I tinkered with, way back when I was considering joining the game that Techno was running explicitly to test homebrew stuff, also had Magic Lamp, but no other limited-use powers. With nine advantages in this game though, that was a lot harder to achieve, unless I picked advantages from at least three different roll types, which didn't seem like a good idea, so I went with powers I figured I could typically use up before using it.
    It's great that the downsides aren't 100% crippling and can be carefully built around if you pick your powers based on the mechanical synergy, even in a game that isn't as high-power as this one. But at least for my rework, I'm trying to lean away from powers that require you to build a particular way for them to be useful, to allow for builds that are a bit more driven by character choices rather than mechanical ones. Some of that is going to be inevitable, whether because the power is too classic or too weird to do any other way, but when it comes to implementing the other homebrew things, I'm cutting out powers that basically require the build to warp around them in order to not be un-fun to use. I'd like all powers to be fun to use, and to me this one really isn't.

    Now, does it need that drawback to be balanced? Almost certainly not, I agree. Both since it's once per episode, and as potent as it is there are ways to interact with it (in our own group Fran's allure penalty abilities and Sawa's Misfortune Talisman can put a huge damper on it since it doubles negative modifiers too, and Brooklyn's Less is More can turn the roll into a 50/50 between the two of us if she wants), the risk of losing your limited-use abilities definitely feels excessive. But at the same time, since there's ways to play or build around it, I don't want to go asking Illven to house rule that away. It would feel too much like I was just asking for a power-up to my character.
    How Illven chooses to change or not change it isn't really something I'm concerned about at the present moment. I think it's a weak power, but we can cross that bridge if this game reaches the point of houseruling the homebrew. That there happen to be powers in this group that can stack their own sabotage on top of the sabotage you handed them is definitely worthwhile synergy of a sort.

    (Aside: not a lot of effort when into maximizing that, actually. Applying Eccentric Outfit was just easy, as soon as I saw the Admin Office being mentioned it was clear how I could get Butt In, and I'm basically always going to use Overclock when I use Magic Lamp. If I really wanted to expend a lot of effort to maximize it, I'd have tried to come up with an excuse to add Elemental Affinity, too - or figure out some way to justify all of Sophia's Allure advantages, which would get things up to +20 if I could somehow pull that off. And I did consider trying to do an Allure roll, either with or without Magic Lamp, I just decided it was too difficult to come up with ways to use advantages besides Butt In for that in this particular scenario.)
    Not a lot of effort went into maximizing it for this game's standards, certainly. We have nine powers to work with. But at least for the purposes of my rebalancing, I'm focusing around powers on the assumption of a standard 6 game (even if apparently that doesn't get played anymore). In a standard game, turning this into a +12 equivalent would be much more challenging, just because you've only got 5 powers to accomplish a standard +12 with (and if you were pulling off a +12 already, you wouldn't be likely to feel the need to pull this power out as well, you'd save it for something else). Heck even for this game where you've got the extra powers, you're talking up there about talking your way into a normal Allure +10 for Magic Lamp to turn into a +20 - that's a +10 value on Magic Lamp, in an overpowered game where you're pretty allure focused. If I had Magic Lamp on Morrigan, even she couldn't get +12 value out of it - she maxes out at Luck +11, I'd have to rebuild to not be 100% **** at allure rolls if I wanted to hit +12 (and again, at that point, would I even need the extra 12?).

    Of course, the flip side of that is, I'd also like powers that don't get significantly worse or better as people "level up" - I'd like the upgrade system to at least be potentially viable. This power can probably reach +4-6 reliably in a normal game, and probably +8-12 in a game like this, and then +12-18 in a game with 12 advantages maybe? That's not good ability design either, at least the way I'm doing things. A straight doubling of the bonus isn't going to be consistent across games.

    Another way to look at it: reverse Down and Dirty. Playing Tanya, I had to tank a roll to charge up a big modifier off Down and Dirty, but the payoff was that the next roll was almost always an auto-success. Now, Down and Dirty was 2/episode where Magic Lamp is 1, but I felt that Down and Dirty was powerful enough that I dropped it to 1/episode in my balance changes, so yeah, in that respect Magic Lamp feels about right to me.
    See and I'm largely bringing things up to the balance of the more powerful abilities, so DaD being 2/ep makes Magic Lamp seem a lot more fitting as a 2/ep as well (it's also vaguely comparable to homebrew-Truant, although as we've already seen, Truant isn't exactly any guarantee of performance.)

    Also worth noting: it's not necessarily "probably auto-win one roll, auto-lose another." Since you can swap roll results with Sophia, you also have the option of having Sophia try to succeed at a roll so that you can do that, whether because a roll that she's good at that you're not is offering more VP than one you can hit, or just as a fallback to make it more likely that you get VP for the scene. And of course if you're doing that, well, perhaps we end up both succeeding on the roll and I still get something. That is one thing I like about the design, even though the other player gets the chance to just tell me I lose a roll for a scene, there is an incentive in place not to.
    It's helpful, but it's still leaving a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I'd probably have to seriously rework things. Part of my bias is, ever since playing Sam I've become generally unfond of sabotage powers as a whole, for similar reasons to why people are unfond of Conflict characters: ooh yeah you won not by being good but by being violent, ooh yeah you won not by being good but by dragging everyone else through the mud. How romantic. That's not to knock on people who use them, all is fair in love and war and all that, but I'm probably going to seriously avoid ever using them myself, and having one dropped in my lap with the "you dont have to use it but if you dont you're letting me get away with it" rider just isn't very fun for me personally.

    One potential rebalance for standard play (even for this particular game) could be that while the character doesn't get to choose which girl gets the lamp, maybe the player could get to choose?


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    @Feathersnow you sorta double-posted. Should probably delete the first one, I got confused for a sec.


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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    @Feathersnow you sorta double-posted. Should probably delete the first one, I got confused for a sec.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    I'm not talking about this specific game or this specific character, though, I'm talking about how it's generally bad design to balance powerful mechanics with annoying downsides - and to my eyes, these downsides are particularly annoying (and this mechanic not particularly powerful). Case in point, while this power is nowhere near as unfun to get hit by as SooT (in no small part because you get to choose whether to get hit by it or not), but at least SooT let you choose what advantages you were going to apply, and didn't force you to waste all your per-episode powers on one ****ty roll.
    Okay, couple of things in response to that. For one, I don't agree that this downside is particularly annoying, outside of the specific case of how it can potentially interact with limited-use powers. It wouldn't be on my character if I did. Instead, I think it helps this advantage successfully capture part of what the fantasy of playing a Genie is, in my mind, in a way that the other Genie advantages don't. Phenominal Cosmic Power, itty bitty living space but they have to take orders from others to use it. Obviously given the nature of the game they can't be doing that anywhere near all of the time, nor would it be fun to do so, but building it in as the drawback to a particularly potent power feels very appropriate to me, and I honestly look forward to seeing what other players do with it (in-character, I mean). Because, again setting aside the limited-use powers thing, the worst thing that can be done to me with it mechanically is that I fail a roll, which is about what I feel is an appropriate downside for a power so potent it can typically guarantee success, potentially even on an opposed roll.

    Which gets to another point of disagreement: I don't think this mechanic is weak. Maybe you're right that in whatever your version of the game is it would need to be even more powerful to justify being 1/episode with a drawback, I haven't seen yours, but in the game as it mostly is here (and as I was trying to balance things when I did my reworks), this looks about right to me. A single advantage granting +7 to a roll like that is a power level barely found anywhere else in the game - only things like Down and Dirty or Less is More even have that potential, and they each have their own downsides (Down and Dirty requiring a failed roll and swinging in power depending on how badly you failed, Less is More never getting you a better situation than a 50/50 tossup between you and the highest-rolling player you're copying if used on opposed roll, which tends to be where big advantages are best used).

    Also, I have to point out one little flaw in that last part - Shadow Out of Time technically lets you choose what you apply, but in practice the user just can just shunt everyone else into a roll they can't possibly do well at, so that doesn't matter. Unless a character is built such that they can legitimately get a good modifier to every roll type at any time, which is pretty hard without doing something crazy specific like playing a character who has all three of Connections, School Queen, and Poker Face, it might as well just say that the other players have to skip that roll.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    See and I'm largely bringing things up to the balance of the more powerful abilities, so DaD being 2/ep makes Magic Lamp seem a lot more fitting as a 2/ep as well (it's also vaguely comparable to homebrew-Truant, although as we've already seen, Truant isn't exactly any guarantee of performance.)
    Again, haven't seen your rework, but Down and Dirty being a 2/ episode as-is is a major outlier power-wise. The typical 2/episode advantage is +2 to any roll type, with a downside - either a penalty to your roll for something like Overclock, or a bonus to an opponent's for something like Fortune Talisman, that sort of thing. And those advantages are quite good as they are, so I feel like those are a fine baseline to work that around. Hence my own decision to drop Down and Dirty to 1/episode.

    Also, not sure what homebrew Truant you're referring to - is this Anubis', or another? Because Anubis' honestly just looks weak to me. You give up a roll, so one auto-fail, but all it provides is doubling your potential rewards on the next roll. It gives no benefit towards actually getting those rewards. That's not much of an advantage, in my eyes. Especially if there was a decent chance you could have succeeded on the roll you skipped, since then you might actually be getting no real reward even if you succeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    It's helpful, but it's still leaving a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I'd probably have to seriously rework things. Part of my bias is, ever since playing Sam I've become generally unfond of sabotage powers as a whole, for similar reasons to why people are unfond of Conflict characters: ooh yeah you won not by being good but by being violent, ooh yeah you won not by being good but by dragging everyone else through the mud. How romantic. That's not to knock on people who use them, all is fair in love and war and all that, but I'm probably going to seriously avoid ever using them myself, and having one dropped in my lap with the "you dont have to use it but if you dont you're letting me get away with it" rider just isn't very fun for me personally.
    I can understand not being fond of Conflict characters, though for me it's just a matter of not knowing how to play one in a way that I'll enjoy, not disliking them when others do. The one time I tried (Illven ran a game where we rolled randomly for our archetypes, and I got Sukeban/Genki), I wound up dropping out of the game because I just couldn't find a way to use the conflict advantages much without feeling like my character was just a jerk or a bully, which I didn't want to do. By contrast though, I always found Alex entertaining when Anubis was playing her in YYHC.

    As to sabotage powers more broadly, well, obviously I can readily understand not liking ones like Shadow Out of Time/Just as Planned. More regular ones like Misfortune Talisman, much less so, but hey, personal tastes are what they are. I'm sorry that extends to disliking even having to benefit from the drawback of another player's power like this even when he's fine with it, but unless Illven wants to house rule it, there's not much that can be done there, besides for you to simply decide how you'll handle it.

    As to that last, I don't think you're letting me "get away with" anything if you don't use the option to waste Sophia's other advantages. You'd just be voluntarily letting the advantage work in the manner you feel is fairer to begin with, no?

    Also.... so, not expecting any of this to get used here, but talking about this has me thinking about other potential ways to spin the drawback mechanically. In-character, I still feel it needs to have the lamp falling into another player's hands, and them getting to ask the Genie for help. Mechanically though, perhaps that help is a buff to their rolls, instead of them controlling the Genie's. Maybe their advantages get doubled for the turn because they get to make a wish to help them with their roll, or maybe they get to add whatever modifier the Genie applies that scene to their roll. Something like that could still allow the drawback to work for both flavor and balance, while removing the concern about controlling the other player's character.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    One potential rebalance for standard play (even for this particular game) could be that while the character doesn't get to choose which girl gets the lamp, maybe the player could get to choose?
    Oh, that would definitely not work for this particular game, because I'd probably just choose to roll it randomly anyway. Because if I got to pick then it becomes a situation where I'm trying to game out which other character will get the least benefit from it, at which point it probably ends up going to same character every time, and that'll just get boring very fast and really isn't in the spirit of the power, IMO. I want to see everyone else get their turn with this thing and see what they do with it.

    Edit: Actually, if it bothers you that much, maybe we could just leave Morrigan out of the pool of options for who gets it in the future? It would just be you passing on something advantageous, so I'd think that would probably be okay.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feathersnow View Post
    I guess I can use my Chuunibyuo power to treat it as a success if I fail? How does that work in context?
    Exactly as it sounds - you'd declare that you want to use it, and if your roll is low enough that you fail, you'd be treated as succeeding anyway.

    Personally, I wouldn't recommend that on this one, this is a pretty average roll in both difficulty and VP awarded, and still early in the episode, and those advantages are best used when one that's harder but more rewarding comes up. You might considering whether you could do anything to apply Splash Magnet to boost your luck roll instead, to make your odds of success better. Or maybe even if you could justify Lady of Darkness to an allure roll, plus a use of Practiced Grace to make that a guaranteed success.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Exactly as it sounds - you'd declare that you want to use it, and if your roll is low enough that you fail, you'd be treated as succeeding anyway.

    Personally, I wouldn't recommend that on this one, this is a pretty average roll in both difficulty and VP awarded, and still early in the episode, and those advantages are best used when one that's harder but more rewarding comes up. You might considering whether you could do anything to apply Splash Magnet to boost your luck roll instead, to make your odds of success better. Or maybe even if you could justify Lady of Darkness to an allure roll, plus a use of Practiced Grace to make that a guaranteed success.
    I'm not sure how splash magnet would work to help. Maybe it's a pool party?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feathersnow View Post
    I'm not sure how splash magnet would work to help. Maybe it's a pool party?
    Well, the luck roll is to "make sure the party includes one of Maya's favorite activates, by sheer chance." So, perhaps seeing you get splashed by something inspires the guy that's talking to Maya about this party to make sure they include an activity of some sort, which is turns out that Maya likes? Or even inspires him to make it a pool party?

    That's a big part of the game, figuring out how to apply your advantages to the rolls each scene. It's not always (or even often, depending on the advantage) immediately obvious how to do so - if you're just planning on using Splash Magnet in scenes where, for instance, we're at a pool and the luck roll is specifically "get splashed so your wet shirt gets Maya's attention," you're not going to get much use out of it, because a scene where the use of an advantage is that obvious is going to be very rare. Sometimes all it requires is a little bit of thought on how it might work; other times, you might need to get fairly creative (see Morrigan's roll last scene, for instance). Other times there's just not a way to do it without stretching things too far, in which case you might be out of luck that scene, but I don't think that's the case here.
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    Gah, there's an entire extra page.

    I feel like this game is just moving far too fast for me-I go to work for four hours and find more than a dozen posts.
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    To be fair, starting on tuesday, I am going to be working roughly 4 ten hour days, so i will be wiped and probably won't be a decent rate poster until friday night, probably saturday.

    So, I do try and flurry when I can, since my opportunities to do so are limited.

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    Uh, this last page is several days worth of posts.

    When a lot of posting happens at once, it's usually because Illven and one or two of us is on late (10-midnight eastern or so, sometimes later on weekends). But this last scene was more spread out.
    Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!

    "When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

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