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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: The paradox of challenge in RPGs

    And neither 4e nor 5e doubles power per level. Heck, not even 3e does unless you're at the far end of optimization. And then you have pun-pun from level 1? 2?

    Doubling power per level is insane. A level 20 character is more powerful than a level 1, but not 2^20 (roughly 1 million times). Not even 2^10 (1024x). At least in 5e.

    And with a little experience you can run a game where you almost entirely ignore CR, adventuring day budgets, and only ever have mundane gear. Other than the last, that's generally what I do. I glance at cr as a very rough first step in narrowing down the set of possible monsters, but only that. And some days I have 1 big encounter, others 6-8.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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    NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: The paradox of challenge in RPGs

    Quote Originally Posted by KineticDiplomat View Post
    Given OPs specific opening post involves the issue of “if players do well they outpower D&D quickly, if not they death spiral” I think that combined with a long history of levels, CRs, level-appropriate encounters, XP per day/encounter charts, level appropriate wealth guides, level appropriate magic items...we can say that yes, D&D revolves far more around needing to accurately balance progression than most.
    So IMO, these are not universal issues. I've not found D&D to require any more careful calibration than other non-rules-light systems.

    In fact, in the one case posited in the OP - early success or failure snowballing to an unwanted extent - a steeper power curve makes the effect less lasting.

    For example, a Shadowrun character who gets an extra 1M nuyen will become a lot more powerful, and will continue to be a lot more powerful. A PF1 character who gets +10k gp at 1st level will have vastly more wealth than normal ... but by 7th they're merely ahead a bit, and by 12th it may go unnoticed. Even +100k would eventually not be a big deal.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2021-04-25 at 02:54 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: The paradox of challenge in RPGs

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    In fact, in the one case posited in the OP - early success or failure snowballing to an unwanted extent - a steeper power curve makes the effect less lasting.

    For example, a Shadowrun character who gets an extra 1M nuyen will become a lot more powerful, and will continue to be a lot more powerful. A PF1 character who gets +10k gp at 1st level will have vastly more wealth than normal ... but by 7th they're merely ahead a bit, and by 12th it may go unnoticed. Even +100k would eventually not be a big deal.
    Yup. A slight increase in power, in a system where power grows exponentially, is quickly hardly noticeable. Whereas a miscalibration in a slow-moving game is felt for a long time.

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Talakeal's Avatar

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    Default Re: The paradox of challenge in RPGs

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    So IMO, these are not universal issues. I've not found D&D to require any more careful calibration than other non-rules-light systems.

    In fact, in the one case posited in the OP - early success or failure snowballing to an unwanted extent - a steeper power curve makes the effect less lasting.

    For example, a Shadowrun character who gets an extra 1M nuyen will become a lot more powerful, and will continue to be a lot more powerful. A PF1 character who gets +10k gp at 1st level will have vastly more wealth than normal ... but by 7th they're merely ahead a bit, and by 12th it may go unnoticed. Even +100k would eventually not be a big deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Yup. A slight increase in power, in a system where power grows exponentially, is quickly hardly noticeable. Whereas a miscalibration in a slow-moving game is felt for a long time.
    So much this.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Telok's Avatar

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    Default Re: The paradox of challenge in RPGs

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Yup. A slight increase in power, in a system where power grows exponentially, is quickly hardly noticeable. Whereas a miscalibration in a slow-moving game is felt for a long time.
    IF everything goes back to the assumed baseline for the rest of the game.

    As an example I played in a StarFinder game (exponential wealth by level) where the "hardly noticable" blip was the DM not realizing the implicit importance of the wealth by level chart and missing or forgetting one line in the intro of the first book of an adventure path that said to add random encounters as needed to keep the pcs "on level". That's a game where 4th level AC costs around 2000 and 8th level AC around 10000. The DM didn't understand why our 8th level pcs were having such a hard time and we were cheesing op stuff so much for a couple months. It was because the adventure path assumed he'd drop extra money on us when we missed the spot checks for loot or didn't say random magic words to npcs for extra quest rewards.

    Under WBL and over WBL have different effects in game, but they're both the same sort of miscalibration. If everything went back to normal after level 3 the pcs would barely notice a missing 2k in loot by 8th level. When that sort of miscalculation continues it keeps getting worse, and worse, and worse.

    For another example, a Champions game I was in had a character manage to snag an enemy ray gun. A nasty and seriously op ray gun (for pcs at least). With Champions being a game with pretty slow xp & character growth this is, according to the above quote, a problem. Well the character had about two sessions of gleefully blasting holes in stuff until we encountered an enemy mentalist. Facing the possibility of mind control the ray gun was tossed at the enemy and shot in midair, making both the gun and the mentalist non-issues.

    Notably both these issues were essentially gear or money based and potentially easily corrected. A system that makes everything inherent to the character and irreversable could have a worse time of it. Even the 'exponential' type system, if it presumes that character abilities grow with the character, that problem ability can continue to be an issue as it grows with the character.

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: The paradox of challenge in RPGs

    Starfinder is aggressively level-scaled, more so than any other d20 game I've played. For example, starship maneuver checks scale directly by the PCs' level even if nothing else changed - doing the same maneuver in the same ship is harder.

    They also scale the NPCs in a way I rather dislike - they automatically get numbers similar to what a specialized and fully-geared PC could manage, except with no need for gear and they're this good in every skill they have. Makes the PCs look like chumps, IMO, especially for any secondary capabilities. You're not the main pilot but you did put some effort into it and have a decent score? Haha no, every NPC pilot will be better than you, the party is still screwed if the specialist pilot isn't there.

    So I would say Starfinder is less tolerant of power variance than most systems.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2021-04-25 at 10:53 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Telok's Avatar

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    Default Re: The paradox of challenge in RPGs

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Starfinder is aggressively level-scaled, more so than any other d20 game I've played. For example, starship maneuver checks scale directly by the PCs' level even if nothing else changed - doing the same maneuver in the same ship is harder.

    They also scale the NPCs in a way I rather dislike -
    I'm not a fan either, but as long as the party is kept on-level with gear and all the game's numbers work (as long as you're playing as intended). It really is a D&D-in-space reskin, with ray guns/laser swords as damage cantrips bought with money. Oh, and the space DCs scale with ship level. The PC's ship is always supposed to be on-level too, up to and including it being so divorced from the wbl and other systems that the DM has to story-fiat the upgrades, and the PC's have to use the same "pool" of spaceship points to buy door locks or a better kitchen as shields or weapons.

    But it is a good example of how a continuing imbalance in an exponential system just keeps getting worse. In every case, exponential and slow growth models, if the game is moved back to the assumed baseline it goes back to working just fine. If the source of the imbalance continues it continues to be a problem.

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: The paradox of challenge in RPGs

    Oh cool! I had no idea about this, thanks so much for the info!

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Leonard Robel's Avatar

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    Default Re: The paradox of challenge in RPGs

    This is a long thread and I'm sure some of this has been said, but the easiest solution to power creep is to destroy the gear and treasure. Everything wears out. Hitting an armored foe will destroy weapons. Getting hit will destroy armor. Gear can be stolen. A character might fall into slick pond or the sea and need to take off his armor or drown.

    I tend to make magic items that are really powerful but there's a pretty strong hint that it won't last, or I make durable magic items that are more mysterious than strong at first, because they take a long time to reveal all their powers.

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