Loki (2021)

[Dragonus45]

That would require the Time Keepers/TVA to be lying about the singular Sacred Timeline though. Otherwise, there couldn't be a Frost Giant Loki and Troll Loki existing in parallel.

Not really, similar to the issue of not noticing a divergence if what is changed never has time to propagate it's entirely possible to have a situation where a change could be so subtle that it doesn't really change anything till long after it happened.

[Rakaydos]

Like GloatingSwine said, though, even a tiny thing like that - the example given was being late for work - is enough to cause a nexus event. Everything happens exactly when they want, where they want, how they want. You seem to be imagining the TVA/Time Keepers as a multiversal peace organization, but everything about their own self-image/propaganda paints them as the victors of a multiversal war, who genocided all the competing timelines and now stamp out new competition before it can grow strong enough.

I think this might be getting into "great man vs tides of history" territory. The explanation in the waiting area, aimed at variants, makes certian assumptions about how important someone is, whereas the more detailed explanantions we get later on has more grey areas.

I also believe timelines should be splitting left and right, not just from time travel but from quantum state decay/ "free will" events. The vast majority of these have no effect on the timeline's trajectory, however, unless they happen at or leading up to a nexus.

Let's look at the variant we see happen on screen. Tony giving himself a heart attack is allowed, and past-hulk smashing future-tony across the room is also allowed. And as we know, after Loki vanishes with the cube, tony and steve pick up the spare in the 60s and have an important, on-timeline meetings with Tony's father/Steve's girlfriend's office

So why is our loki a variant? His actions were allowed for up until he vanished, and then timekeepers had no use for his plot thread anymore.

The other person we see in the waiting room is an affuenza-afflicted child who seriously threatens to have his captors' jobs privatized. Someone who at least believes they have the ability to change the course of history on a whim, without time travel being involved at all. My belief is that he was spiteful to the wrong person one time, rather than being spiteful in all the right ways except for one time.

[Rakaydos]

Not really, similar to the issue of not noticing a divergence if what is changed never has time to propagate it's entirely possible to have a situation where a change could be so subtle that it doesn't really change anything till long after it happened.

Exactly. The timeline display in the TVA isnt all that high resolution. If a timeline is close enough to the Sacred one, they wont notice until it's about to affect a nexus event.

[GloatingSwine]

Not really, similar to the issue of not noticing a divergence if what is changed never has time to propagate it's entirely possible to have a situation where a change could be so subtle that it doesn't really change anything till long after it happened.

Again though, they can notice and remove a timeline if someone is late for work when the timekeepers didn't say they would be.

The TVA only don't notice things if any changes are immediately undone, eg. by an apocalyptic event.

Remember that they are absolutely, fantatically, pathologically driven to prevent the emergence of a multiverse. And again, just look at the language they use among themselves. The Sacred Timeline. That's not a descriptor you use if there's any amount of "close enough".

Their entire organisation is dedicated to the preservation of one, uno, a singular version of any event which could ever possibly have happened. The only times things can deviate is when everything present is erased immediately anyway, which is exactly what they would have done with it.

[Psyren]

Spoiler: raiding the drawer

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My only issue with Lokie raiding the infinity stone drawer for answers is that he wouldn't know which is the time stone in particular. He never crossed paths with it at any point in the normal timeline.

Given that even Thor (not the sharpest polearm in the garrison) was able to instantly recognize the Mind Stone on sight, I'd conclude they are just part of the normal Asgard curriculum.

(Note that we know there IS a "curriculum" because Thor took Groot as an elective.)

That would require the Time Keepers/TVA to be lying about the singular Sacred Timeline though. Otherwise, there couldn't be a Frost Giant Loki and Troll Loki existing in parallel.

Their goal is to keep timelines from hitting that red line. Small divergences are permitted. I imagine this will eventually be the explanation they use for Old Steve Rogers lurking in the background.

In broad stokes, yes. But only if the variant action is itself enough to cause a branching timeline. Ordering the wrong number of sugars with your coffee one morning isnt going to get you a visit from the TVA unless there's an important event that's supposed to be triggered by running out of sugar at the wrong customer. (a "Red line", apparently)

Basically, the timeline can split without branching and as long as every timeline matches the sacred timeline, mutiversal harmony is assured.

Yeah, that.

[Rakaydos]

Again though, they can notice and remove a timeline if someone is late for work when the timekeepers didn't say they would be.

The TVA only don't notice things if any changes are immediately undone, eg. by an apocalyptic event.

Remember that they are absolutely, fantatically, pathologically driven to prevent the emergence of a multiverse. And again, just look at the language they use among themselves. The Sacred Timeline. That's not a descriptor you use if there's any amount of "close enough".

Their entire organisation is dedicated to the preservation of one, uno, a singular version of any event which could ever possibly have happened. The only times things can deviate is when everything present is erased immediately anyway, which is exactly what they would have done with it.

Loki literally went thousands of years without realizing he was anything but Asguardian. Thats an absurdly long time between Frigga making a variation, and it having any affect on the timeline... which is WHY they get so many loki variants. The TVA couldnt tell Young-Loki-but-secretly-IceGiant apart from Young-Loki-but-secretly-Troll until troll does something off-script, and cant detect any "variance energy" unless things start changing from the sacred timeline.

Edit: We also know that "the timekeepers are paying close attention to every aspect of this case", implying that they sometimes dont pay all that close attention at all. At this point we can assume Loki's adoption was poorly monitored.

[The Glyphstone]

Wouldn't a far simpler explanation to all this be...."Loki turning into a troll creates the variant timeline?" At least, that one doesnt require creating an entire alternative mythology where everything the show tells us about the TVA is actually a lie.

[Rakaydos]

Wouldn't a far simpler explanation to all this be...."Loki turning into a troll creates the variant timeline?" At least, that one doesnt require creating an entire alternative mythology where everything the show tells us about the TVA is actually a lie.

Perhaps it's too much Star Wars growing up, but I am more inclined to "certian point of view" explanations.

[GloatingSwine]

Loki literally went thousands of years without realizing he was anything but Asguardian. Thats an absurdly long time between Frigga making a variation, and it having any affect on the timeline... which is WHY they get so many loki variants. The TVA couldnt tell Young-Loki-but-secretly-IceGiant apart from Young-Loki-but-secretly-Troll until troll does something off-script, and cant detect any "variance energy" unless things start changing from the sacred timeline.

Right, but Frigga adopting a different baby of a different species would be a far greater variation than someone being late for work. The variation is immediate, because the Ice Giants are one of the Asgardians' greatest foes and trolls are not.

Frigga isn't adopting some rando in Loki, she's adopting the son of her peoples' most persisting foe, Laufey the king of the Ice Giants at the conclusion of a war with said giants.

How would that not immediately create a massive multiversal variation if any one of trillions of sentients in the entire galaxy being late for work can?

That variant Frigga and the entire timeline she could have created would have been pruned when she adopted the wrong baby.

Their goal is to keep timelines from hitting that red line. Small divergences are permitted. I imagine this will eventually be the explanation they use for Old Steve Rogers lurking in the background.

We already have their explanation for that. It was meant to happen that way, that wasn't a divergence.

Wouldn't a far simpler explanation to all this be...."Loki turning into a troll creates the variant timeline?" At least, that one doesnt require creating an entire alternative mythology where everything the show tells us about the TVA is actually a lie.

The simplest explanation is one I've already broached. "Sylvie" isn't actually Loki at all. Because she clearly hasn't had anything like the same life as Loki (no connection with the single most important person in his life, for a start), the variation would be far too big not to be pruned long before she reached adulthood as a "Loki".

[Rakaydos]

How would that not immediately create a massive multiversal variation if any one of trillions of sentients in the entire galaxy being late for work can?

This is the fundamental point on which we disagree. In an empty waiting room, -for variants-, it is explained that any one of THEM could be variants for a little as being late for work.

That is not the same as anyone in the universe being late for work becoming a variant. There are other factors involved, which are explained elsewhere in the show. but if you're already in that waiting room, those other factors dont matter anymore.

[Millstone85]

Perhaps it's too much Star Wars growing up, but I am more inclined to "certian point of view" explanations.

"Well then you are lost!"

[GloatingSwine]

That is not the same as anyone in the universe being late for work becoming a variant. There are other factors involved, which are explained elsewhere in the show.

[Citation Needed]

But like actual citation though. Not an assumption, a direct citation from the show that only certain people could have been a variant in the first place.

The "late for work" example is supposed to demonstrate how trivial becoming a variant can be (and possibly reference Sliding Doors).

[Rakaydos]

[Citation Needed]

But like actual citation though. Not an assumption, a direct citation from the show that only certain people could have been a variant in the first place.

The "late for work" example is supposed to demonstrate how trivial becoming a variant can be (and possibly reference Sliding Doors).

To get word for word, I'd have to get home to rewatch the episodes. But the explanantions of Red Lines and why apocalipses dont generate variance energy are the places to look.

[Psyren]

We already have their explanation for that. It was meant to happen that way, that wasn't a divergence.

Whoa, slow down now - in that statement, they were specifically referring to the revisitation of the Battle of New York by the 2023 Avengers, not to Steve's peculiar method of returning the stones. It's possible Ravonna's judgment applied to everything that happened in Endgame and that the TVA didn't get involved with any of it offscreen, but we don't actually know that yet.

The simplest explanation is one I've already broached. "Sylvie" isn't actually Loki at all. Because she clearly hasn't had anything like the same life as Loki (no connection with the single most important person in his life, for a start), the variation would be far too big not to be pruned long before she reached adulthood as a "Loki".

Then why does the TVA think she is one? That's their entire justification for recruiting Laufeyson in the first place, despite the clear (and now justified) dangers in doing so. And given how many other Loki variants they've apparently scooped up across time, they should know.

Moreover, Loki is able to find her hiding spot specifically because she thinks like he does.

EDIT2: ...Actually, new theory:

Spoiler

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He's able to find her because she is hiding where he would have hidden, but that information (hiding near apocalypses) could have been supplied to her by Old Loki. So he's actually thinking like his older self rather than like her. This would also explain how she didn't realize her powers wouldn't work in the TVA, because she'd never actually been there before but only heard about it secondhand... from Loki.

[Lt-Murgen]

Like GloatingSwine said, though, even a tiny thing like that - the example given was being late for work - is enough to cause a nexus event. Everything happens exactly when they want, where they want, how they want. You seem to be imagining the TVA/Time Keepers as a multiversal peace organization, but everything about their own self-image/propaganda paints them as the victors of a multiversal war, who genocided all the competing timelines and now stamp out new competition before it can grow strong enough.

They way I understood it from the Miss Minutes explanation is that the sacred timeline is essentially a multiverse set. For any given point, across all of the multiverse, there exists only a set series of appropriate actions. That is why Moebius says "that is what is supposed to happen, over and over again." That way, there could be multiple versions of "Freya adopts a child of one of her husband's enemies", but they all follow a similar pattern that results in Ragnarok and Thor becoming king.

[GloatingSwine]

Then why does the TVA think she is one? That's their entire justification for recruiting Laufeyson in the first place, despite the clear (and now justified) dangers in doing so. And given how many other Loki variants they've apparently scooped up across time, they should know.

One of the ideas is that she's an insider. She's a rogue TVA agent (she knows a lot about how to hit them) who faked the Loki identity because Loki is so good at creating variations and she can exploit their expectations to blindside and ambush their field teams.

Another one is going in spoilers just in case:

Spoiler

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She was made by a Loki variant. She's using the name Sylvie, and that matches up to the second Enchantress. A human, Sylvie Lushton, who was either given powers or made outright by Loki (it's a little unclear). If they go that route they'll change some details of course, but the possibility is there and would also give them something to hang her apparent distaste for the identity of Loki on.

[Psyren]

One of the ideas is that she's an insider. She's a rogue TVA agent (she knows a lot about how to hit them) who faked the Loki identity because Loki is so good at creating variations and she can exploit their expectations to blindside and ambush their field teams.

Another one is going in spoilers just in case:

Spoiler

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She was made by a Loki variant. She's using the name Sylvie, and that matches up to the second Enchantress. A human, Sylvie Lushton, who was either given powers or made outright by Loki (it's a little unclear). If they go that route they'll change some details of course, but the possibility is there and would also give them something to hang her apparent distaste for the identity of Loki on.

Given her surprise at

Spoiler

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her magic not working in the TVA

I'm going to go against the "rogue agent" theory. But she definitely appears to know their MO, which to me says she got briefed by someone who was without having been there herself.

Granted, given the margarita scene, she could also have

Spoiler

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gleaned info on their time squads by ambushing and mind-scraping a few of them.

[Rakaydos]

Any way I look at it, Frigga HAS to know more about the TVA than she lets on. What was it she said to Thor in Endgame? "Dont tell me about the future, what happens must happen" or something?

[Dragonus45]

Again though, they can notice and remove a timeline if someone is late for work when the timekeepers didn't say they would be.

And?

The TVA only don't notice things if any changes are immediately undone, eg. by an apocalyptic event.

No the context here is very very clear, they do not have perfect information, and rely on tracking actual change to the timeline to find branches.

Remember that they are absolutely, fantatically, pathologically driven to prevent the emergence of a multiverse. And again, just look at the language they use among themselves. The Sacred Timeline. That's not a descriptor you use if there's any amount of "close enough".

And? This isn't about what their goals are, it's about their ability to enforce them. In particular it is about the lack of perfect information likely meaning that the initial change to a timeline like an adopted Loki not being the correct one has the potential to not actually cause any changes in the timeline until long after the inciting incident of being a Troll or some such occurred. The apocalypse plan is clear, they only see what happens if the timeline diverges, and until it does there is nothing to see.

Their entire organisation is dedicated to the preservation of one, uno, a singular version of any event which could ever possibly have happened. The only times things can deviate is when everything present is erased immediately anyway, which is exactly what they would have done with it.

Cause and effect man, cause and effect.

[The Glyphstone]

Any way I look at it, Frigga HAS to know more about the TVA than she lets on. What was it she said to Thor in Endgame? "Dont tell me about the future, what happens must happen" or something?

It wouldn't surprise me if being the King/Queen of a nation as powerful as Asgard entitled you to know they existed to some degree. Very few civilizations would approach that level, like the Kree maybe, so with secrecy oaths their existence stays obscure. And they can still lie about the purpose/extent of their meddling even to the people who know about them.

[Rakaydos]

https://www.moviequotesandmore.com/loki-quotes/

Miss Minute: "But sometimes, people like you veer off the path the path the time keepers created. We call those variants. Maybe you started an uprising, or were just late to work. Whatever it was, stepping off your path created a nexus event, which, left unchecked, could branch off into madness, leading to another multiversal war. But dont worry..."

Lots of focus on these specific individuals, and what their actions caused that is bringing them to the TVA's attention. but it doesnt say that ANYONE can cause a nexus event. Only that people who do create a nexus event, end up in that room.

the red line quote doesnt seem that useful.

here it is...
Loki: that thing they arnt supposed to do, cascades into a whole range of other things that arnt supposed to happen. and so on and so forth, until a new timeline branches.

Butterfly effect. But not every choice matters. Some events are determined not by individual actions, but by the statistical sum of society as a whole. Who would the timekeepers prune if they wanted to stop climate change, for instance? so, it doesnt matter if Happi is late to work at Stark industries, unless it's during the events of a movie. It doesnt matter if stark himself puts off suit mark 40 for a day or two, as long as it's finished before he needs it in Ironman 3. all that matters are changes that cascade OFF the timeline.

[Lizard Lord]

I think people are underestimating just how much small events can potentially diverge from the timeline. Sometimes being late for work won't matter. Sometimes it can change your whole day. Very rarely, but not impossibly, it can cause you to either make or miss a passing event that could change your life (it could also get you fired or lose out on a promotion). A small event doesn't necessarily mean a small divergence.

If you actually look at the visual representation of the sacred timeline you can see the occasional arc that pops off and then quickly rejoins the timeline. This could just be a meaningless artistic license, a representation of sanctioned time travel events (such as what we see in Endgame), or small events that don't actually change the timeline. Either way it is not something the TVA bothers to prune.

[Tyndmyr]

That was Loki using Magic like Telekinesis. It was pretty apparent from him saying "I've got this" throwing up his arms and miming while the building was thrown away.

Whether or not he's ever had that kind of magic before is questionable....

Yeah, that's the thing. That seems out of character for Loki. Not his usual style, and not in a pedantic detail oriented way the writers would miss.

He has a tendency for slight self aggrandizement in his trickery, so it seems like the kind of thing he might pull if it were a scam somehow. But I don't think it's *all* a scam. So trying to figure out who is tricking who and how is sort of interesting.

That would require the Time Keepers/TVA to be lying about the singular Sacred Timeline though. Otherwise, there couldn't be a Frost Giant Loki and Troll Loki existing in parallel.

Oh, I think it's increasingly likely that the Time Keepers/TVA story is based on a whole lot of lies. Which, hey, thematic for Loki's show.

Their goal is to keep timelines from hitting that red line. Small divergences are permitted. I imagine this will eventually be the explanation they use for Old Steve Rogers lurking in the background.

While I suspect that small enough divergences don't matter and are not detected, the red line is treated differently. Detected divergences are responded to, and the universe destroyed prior to red lining, which is described as the point at which they can no longer kaboom the universe.

Why those are the limits...no idea. No real info to go off of. But detection clearly isn't universal, because of the apocalypse thing. So, it's very obvious that only certain things matter to the TVA. Perhaps the Timekeepers insist on a timeline that leads to their creation/something else's creation. Or whoever took over for the timekeepers or whatever.

That variant Frigga and the entire timeline she could have created would have been pruned when she adopted the wrong baby.

That is still a possible interpretation. After all, she's definitely a variant, and she has been fairly cagey with information, but it's clear she didn't know her mother long at all. It's possible that the TVA did show up almost immediately to prune, and events started there. She has essentially spent her life on the run from the TVA. This all is fairly consistent.

[Rodin]

I think people are underestimating just how much small events can potentially diverge from the timeline. Sometimes being late for work won't matter. Sometimes it can change your whole day. Very rarely, but not impossibly, it can cause you to either make or miss a passing event that could change your life (it could also get you fired or lose out on a promotion). A small event doesn't necessarily mean a small divergence.

If you actually look at the visual representation of the sacred timeline you can see the occasional arc that pops off and then quickly rejoins the timeline. This could just be a meaningless artistic license, a representation of sanctioned time travel events (such as what we see in Endgame), or small events that don't actually change the timeline. Either way it is not something the TVA bothers to prune.

However, there's also the matter of "importance". An accountant in Kentucky being late for work might change his whole life...but ultimately he's still an accountant from Kentucky. Even fairly major changes (like reproducing) might not matter. If he has several hundred descendants who all live in that town and never do anything outside it, what changes sufficiently for the TVA to get involved? The overall thrust of the timeline is not altered.

Even in the normal universe most people are not important enough to matter in "the grand scale". If you didn't do your job, someone else would. If a time cop came in and eradicated you from existence it would not cause the fall of civilization. On a universal scale, even someone who accidentally blows up the planet might not matter once you zoom the timeline out far enough. It all depends on your perspective.

This is why I think the "late for work" example is grossly oversimplified. It's a basic example of what can cause a split put into the simplest form so a confused variant can understand what the heck is going on. If splits can occur naturally and that easily you have an infinite number of branches happening every time someone makes a decision. The TVA would be dealing with billions of branching paths from every person in existence. The only way you get people with a tendency for variance is if there is a deeper level.

In Loki's case it's a combination of personality, power, and heritage. He has the personality to do the unexpected. He has the power to pull it off. And he has the heritage that places him in positions of power and near important events. If Loki is our Kentucky accountant he probably doesn't become a variant, because he doesn't have the means or opportunity to get up to much mischief. Loki, son of Odin and second in line for the throne of Asgard...well, that's a different matter entirely.

I'm also in agreement with the idea that the Sacred Timeline is actually a collection of timelines. I'd have to see the Miss Minutes video again to be sure, but my memory says it was more a collective ribbon of timelines all heading the same direction. It changes the timeline from a straight line into a bonsai tree, heavily pruned to make it grow in a manner pleasing to the Timekeepers.

[Ronnoc]

Spoiler: TVA agents

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Technically speaking the time masters could still be the ones "creating" the TVA agents. If they see a person with talents they need then perturbing the timeline enough to get a variant they can spin off without disturbing their sacred timeline and then wiping the new variant's mind would be easy enough.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler: Fridge Brilliance

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Wait, was the reason we see TVA agents disintegrated by their own reset batons an early clue to the secret reveal that the TVA is staffed by variants?

Also...is that weird arm-baton stance the Minutemen use something out of a real martial art? It looks so odd when the weapon they're bracing is a melee weapon, but maybe there is logic I don't know.

[GloatingSwine]

However, there's also the matter of "importance". An accountant in Kentucky being late for work might change his whole life...but ultimately he's still an accountant from Kentucky. Even fairly major changes (like reproducing) might not matter. If he has several hundred descendants who all live in that town and never do anything outside it, what changes sufficiently for the TVA to get involved? The overall thrust of the timeline is not altered.

But it still means that there are now parallel timelines which can spark a multiversal war once they become advanced enough to access each other.

And that means they are unacceptable to the TVA.

That's the point of the "late for work" example. No variant is too trivial.

[Rakaydos]

But it still means that there are now parallel timelines which can spark a multiversal war once they become advanced enough to access each other.

And that means they are unacceptable to the TVA.

That's the point of the "late for work" example. No variant is too trivial.

That is unsupported assumption, and contradicted by the empty waiting room and the timeline in the timkeeper's hands ebbing and flowing, with branches that return to the main timeline.

Also, under your "there is only one sacred timeline" theory, why did Sylvie's reset bombs rsult in divergences, instead of destroying the sacred timeline the way branching timelines are destroyed?

[GloatingSwine]

Also, under your "there is only one sacred timeline" theory, why did Sylvie's reset bombs rsult in divergences, instead of destroying the sacred timeline the way branching timelines are destroyed?

Because she's hitting the TVA itself with them, preventing it from pruning divergences.

[ben-zayb]

No variant is too trivial.

Didn't the TVA hunters just let go off the variant (who turned out to be Sylvie) that stole oil so they can skip out on paperwork? Presumably, the reset device wouldn't take care of the variants themselves, just the timeline they messed up.