Loki (2021)

[Telonius]

Spoiler

Show

My wife's theory on the "Nexus Event": the event that's not supposed to happen, is: Loki dies. Being a survivor is one of his defining characteristics. So, if this Loki is actually about to die (due to being in the apocalypse without a way out) that would cause it to register at the TVA.

The credits scene broke my 12-year-old daughter's brain. She was laughing for a good two minutes after seeing Lizard Loki.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler

Show

My wife's theory on the "Nexus Event": the event that's not supposed to happen, is: Loki dies. Being a survivor is one of his defining characteristics. So, if this Loki is actually about to die (due to being in the apocalypse without a way out) that would cause it to register at the TVA.

The credits scene broke my 12-year-old daughter's brain. She was laughing for a good two minutes after seeing Lizard Loki.

[spoiler]

Spoiler

Show

He died when Thanos killed him, though, and the TVA didnt meddle there. So Loki Survivorship is still limited.

[Telonius]

Spoiler

Show

True, but that one didn't stick. Like all the memes are quick to point out, Avengers time-travel shenanigans are all good for the TVA. So they're kind of caught in a paradox there. Avengers time travel is necessary, but results in a variant Loki. Loki's got to survive, but by surviving he's screwing up the timeline.

[Tyndmyr]

Re:Rakaydos

Spoiler

Show

Well, the timekeepers are certainly a scam as of this episode, so I don't think that's it?

Though this show is indeed leaning really, really hard on mystery boxes, and I'd sort of like to get some more idea of what's going on. I do feel like for every answer meted out, we're getting another half dozen questions. Which isn't inherently bad or anything, but it'd be nice to have some idea of stakes for the conflict.

Also, the whole "not checking someone is actually dead" seems...oof. Particularly for Loki, given the general distrust of others and long, long experience with faking death. While the post credits scene was certainly interesting, that particular way of setting up the zap was...not my favorite.

[Psyren]

I am really excited for where the show is going now, especially since we now have TWO potential Young Avengers from this show so they appear to leaning into that setup hard.

Nothing else really to add. Well, maybe one thing:

Spoiler: Time Keepers and the Big Bad

Show

My vote is still for It Was Kangatha All Along, but other fun ideas for the man behind the curtain include:

Dr. Doom - Fake Robots on thrones all the way down is very his style, but despite the huge stakes here (summed up in the Arc Words: "For All Time - Always") this is a bit too low profile for such an iconic big bad. (Doom was Darth Vader before Darth Vader, he deserves a big screen debut!)

Old Loki - This is looking less likely now since that looks like him in the stinger, but getting himself pruned by his own Time Police as a Xanatos Gambit to throw off suspicion would be pretty on-brand too.

The One That Remains - IIRC this is the founder of the TVA in the comics, but this title is generic enough that it could be anyone more well-known as opposed to a random Snoke situation.

[Starbuck_II]

[spoiler]

Spoiler

Show

He died when Thanos killed him, though, and the TVA didnt meddle there. So Loki Survivorship is still limited.

Spoiler

Show

Did he?
We, the audience, assume so, but maybe he didn't.

[Rodin]

Spoiler: Wild speculation

Show

Ravonna is yet another Loki variant.

Yes, I realize Ravonna is a pre-existing character with her own backstory. Then again, so is Sylvie.

From a show perspective it makes sense. If there are two Lokis trying to overthrow the TVA, why not three? Or more? Ravonna got there first. It would be fitting for a show based on Loki to feature them as the villain, and it would be one doozy of a red herring. It's why Ravonna is acting so deceptive throughout the show - she already knew the Timekeepers are fake because she overthrew them in the past.

I have precisely zero confidence in this theory being true, but I would love it if it is.

[The Glyphstone]

As far as the Mystery Box thing - is it weird that I think if any show should operate on the formula of constantly making people wonder what is real and what is lies or misdirection or just red herrings, it's a show centered on Loki? So far it seems like they're actually opening the boxes, just that every episode opens two and leaves four new ones to confuse us.

[Eldan]

I am really excited for where the show is going now, especially since we now have TWO potential Young Avengers from this show so they appear to leaning into that setup hard.

Nothing else really to add. Well, maybe one thing:

Spoiler: Time Keepers and the Big Bad

Show

My vote is still for It Was Kangatha All Along, but other fun ideas for the man behind the curtain include:

Dr. Doom - Fake Robots on thrones all the way down is very his style, but despite the huge stakes here (summed up in the Arc Words: "For All Time - Always") this is a bit too low profile for such an iconic big bad. (Doom was Darth Vader before Darth Vader, he deserves a big screen debut!)

Old Loki - This is looking less likely now since that looks like him in the stinger, but getting himself pruned by his own Time Police as a Xanatos Gambit to throw off suspicion would be pretty on-brand too.

The One That Remains - IIRC this is the founder of the TVA in the comics, but this title is generic enough that it could be anyone more well-known as opposed to a random Snoke situation.

So, purely Meta speculation from someone who has never read a Marvel comic:

Spoiler

Show

It's just Lady Judge Whatshername. Ravana? I really don't think they'll introduce a new big bad that late into a relativey short series. See also Wandavision and Mephisto speculations. I also don't think they'll introduce a major bad guy who is going to show up in the movies in a TV series behind a paywall. It being one of the Lokis is a distant dark horse behind that, but I don't think it's a new character.

[Psyren]

As far as the Mystery Box thing - is it weird that I think if any show should operate on the formula of constantly making people wonder what is real and what is lies or misdirection or just red herrings, it's a show centered on Loki? So far it seems like they're actually opening the boxes, just that every episode opens two and leaves four new ones to confuse us.

Honestly, if I have to deal with mystery boxes, this is how I prefer it to be done. Even when it feels like boxes all the way down, the mere act of opening/getting answers to the previous ones feels like progress. It's a vast improvement over Star Wars and really shows the benefit of going in with a g****n plan as opposed to just winging it with a major franchise and setting.

Lovecraft Country did this very well also, which probably explains Wunmi signing on to the project (and finally getting to show her emotional range too!)

I also don't think they'll introduce a major bad guy who is going to show up in the movies in a TV series behind a paywall.

Uh, Val says hi? I believe she's in Black Widow now and I definitely expect more from her. Introduction is all about execution.

Again though,

Spoiler

Show

Loki being the big bad of his own series, even to himself, is pretty on-brand.

Spoiler: Wild speculation

Show

Ravonna is yet another Loki variant.

Yes, I realize Ravonna is a pre-existing character with her own backstory. Then again, so is Sylvie.

From a show perspective it makes sense. If there are two Lokis trying to overthrow the TVA, why not three? Or more? Ravonna got there first. It would be fitting for a show based on Loki to feature them as the villain, and it would be one doozy of a red herring. It's why Ravonna is acting so deceptive throughout the show - she already knew the Timekeepers are fake because she overthrew them in the past.

I have precisely zero confidence in this theory being true, but I would love it if it is.

It's interesting - and we've already seen that

Spoiler

Show

Black Loki is possible too.

A Loki variant that chose to work with the TVA should definitely be possible.

Unless of course, the cosmic Order they represent is inherently at odds with EVERY Loki. That might be where they're headed too.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler: Ravonna

Show

I did read an interview, I'd have to track down the link, where Ravonnas actress described the Loki show as her 'origin story'. So she's either the henchwoman to a bigger bad like Kang, or the mastermind herself and will be seen in future Marvel works somehow.

[Rodin]

Uh, Val says hi? I believe she's in Black Widow now and I definitely expect more from her. Introduction is all about execution.

Val's appearance in F&WW is more of a cameo than anything else. She gets a couple of short scenes saying "this character exists", but her actual impact on the narrative is minimal. It's more akin to Thanos getting introduced in the various post-credits scenes than a major character introduction.

Spoiler

Show

I can see that happening for a future villain here as well, but I don't expect them to have a major impact on the plot for the same reason Mephisto was never going to get introduced in WandaVision. Agatha worked because she was there all along, and revealing Ravonna as a villain would work the same. That doesn't rule out her working for some other major villain (like Ronan working for Thanos), but I wouldn't expect that villain to get personally involved. Yet.

Edit: On further consideration, spoilering the second half of that since it touches on Loki.

[Psyren]

Val's appearance in F&WW is more of a cameo than anything else. She gets a couple of short scenes saying "this character exists", but her actual impact on the narrative is minimal.

Yeah I don't really care, she showed up in a D+ show first.

[DigoDragon]

Yeah, that's where I fully give up on trying to make any sense of how anything works in this show.

There's two ways of looking at it:

Spoiler

Show

"The timekeepers are paying attention to every aspect of this case."
Loki and sylvie still have roles to play, and when they stopped trying to get off lamentis, and accepted their fate, that created a divergence.

Or...

They had a means to survive (magic love plot armor? I've seen it happen in other shows...) and that would have caused the divergence.

This is how I interpreted it:

Spoiler: The event

Show

I believe what caused the nexus point was something that no Loki in all the multiverse had ever done-- care for someone other than themselves.

Even when Loki does something good on that rare occasion, he's doing it for the attention. He confessed as such when he was in the repeating memory prison. So for this one Loki to listen to Sylvie's story and really care about her situation before his own... well that's a big deal moment in the timeline.

[Tyrant]

This is how I interpreted it:

Spoiler: The event

Show

I believe what caused the nexus point was something that no Loki in all the multiverse had ever done-- care for someone other than themselves.

Even when Loki does something good on that rare occasion, he's doing it for the attention. He confessed as such when he was in the repeating memory prison. So for this one Loki to listen to Sylvie's story and really care about her situation before his own... well that's a big deal moment in the timeline.

Spoiler

Show

I took it to be either: A) Loki and Sylvie were potentially on a course to be not alone and their fate as Lokis is to be alone or B) Loki was becoming someone who could be genuinely heroic and he's only supposed to be the guy who makes others achieve their potential or C) They were on a course to have a kid (should they survive the apocalypse) and I imagine a new life that was never supposed to be would do a real number on the sacred timeline

[Psyren]

For... reasons, I really hope it isn't veering towards romance. That discourse would probably overshadow all the cool space-time stuff the show is exploring.

[thatSeniorGuy]

Spoiler

Show

Kid Loki yes, everything else you’ll have to wait for Rater or someone else more comics-savvy to chime in.

Without too many spoilers

Spoiler

Show

It looks like we're getting something similar to Agents of Asgard, where Loki has to have a sit down with his various incarnations and determine what he is and how he'll be remembered. Old man Loki in the cheap (but classic comics accurate) costume represents what he was back in the day, an ugly misanthrope who delighted in chaos, all Lokis after him are cheap knockoffs. Child Loki is "a fresh start, what everyone said they wanted. But people preferred the old to the good." Which is funny because the whole thing is a slight jab at comic fans who hated that Loki became an anti-villian pretty boy due to the movies, now turned on its head since Tom Hiddleston's smarmy rogue with a tragic tale is the default Loki now. It comes down to whether Loki can ever be anything other than a Prince of Lies, wear the classic costume and continue being a tired retread that embraces "familiarity is better than nothingness"; or if he can accept his fate, let the story end and go out like a champ.

Cool, thanks for that both.

[Anteros]

Spoiler

Show

I suppose if Thor can survive the heart of a star, maybe Loki can survive a planet dying. We haven't seen that kind of durability from him before though.

[lowfyr]

Yeah I don't really care, she showed up in a D+ show first.

Black Widow movie would have showed first but than Covid happened.

[Rodin]

Black Widow movie would have showed first but than Covid happened.

That actually makes her presence in FAWS make a lot more sense. Most of what I learned about the character was from Internet discussions about the comic book character. She comes out of nowhere with no explanation in FAWS, and you pick up from her attitude that she's villainous. She then doesn't do much other than drop some foreshadowing.

Re-order the release schedule and she appears in a totally different light. It's not "who is this?" Your reaction is supposed to be "oh crap HER".

[Starbuck_II]

Spoiler

Show

I took it to be either: A) Loki and Sylvie were potentially on a course to be not alone and their fate as Lokis is to be alone or B) Loki was becoming someone who could be genuinely heroic and he's only supposed to be the guy who makes others achieve their potential or C) They were on a course to have a kid (should they survive the apocalypse) and I imagine a new life that was never supposed to be would do a real number on the sacred timeline

Spoiler

Show

Sadly, I fear after meeting other Lokis, Fem Loki (Sylvie), she falls for them.
It depends on the trope they are going with:
a. in one trope, the female falls for another because she fell for the first only because she thought he was only one. But now a whole world of Lokis?
b. But this could be instead special love, even though she might like the other Lokis, Loki Prime (our Loki) is still the one she favors.
c. She likes Loki, but it was one sided love, she doesn't "love him"/he loves her.

I think they will make it B though.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

Spoiler

Show

c. She likes Loki, but it was one sided love, she doesn't "love him"/he loves her.

Spoiler

Show

Given her priceless expression when he was working himself up to a grand confession, pretty sure this is the route they're taking. At least for now.

[Psyren]

Black Widow movie would have showed first but than Covid happened.

That actually makes her presence in FAWS make a lot more sense. Most of what I learned about the character was from Internet discussions about the comic book character. She comes out of nowhere with no explanation in FAWS, and you pick up from her attitude that she's villainous. She then doesn't do much other than drop some foreshadowing.

Re-order the release schedule and she appears in a totally different light. It's not "who is this?" Your reaction is supposed to be "oh crap HER".

And they made the decision that reversing the order wouldn't be that big a deal; which it wasn't.

Another potential example is the Power Broker, which is unrelated to Black Widow.

Black Widow movie would have showed first but than Covid happened.

Spoiler

Show

Sadly, I fear after meeting other Lokis, Fem Loki (Sylvie), she falls for them.
It depends on the trope they are going with:
a. in one trope, the female falls for another because she fell for the first only because she thought he was only one. But now a whole world of Lokis?
b. But this could be instead special love, even though she might like the other Lokis, Loki Prime (our Loki) is still the one she favors.
c. She likes Loki, but it was one sided love, she doesn't "love him"/he loves her.

I think they will make it B though.

What would be really funny:

Spoiler

Show

Every Loki can end up falling in love with every other Loki, because their inherent narcissism is so great that it transcends the space-time continuum

[Clertar]

As for Ravonna:

Spoiler

Show

I don't think she's the original architect of the Time Keepers scam. In the flashback about Sylvie at the start of ep. 4 Ravonna is shown as just an hunter bringing Sylvie in, like B-15 is, rather than a judge with the authority that she has now. And by then the TVAa was already working the way we've seen it work now.

Probably as TVA agents reach a certain high rank they're let in on the secret behind the organization and are pulled into it.

As for Sylvie and Loki:

Spoiler

Show

In general, I bloody hate romance in movies. In the MCU, I hated the Gamora-Starlord romance. I hated having a romance plotline in The Ditch earlier this year. I hated the romances in Friends, for god's sake.

... but **** me if I haven't fallen head over heels for these two Lokis loving each other and being the cutest thing ever. The actors sold the chemistry so well. At this point they might very well be my favourite media couple ever, even more than the Scarecrow and Mrs. King.

[TeChameleon]

This is entirely incidental to anything, but I wonder if TVA agents only get names once they pass a certain rank, and who chooses the names for them? Does Ravonna have a nametag during the flashback?

Spoiler

Show

The Timekeepers being... well, basically mid-grade animatronics is a rather clever way to justify the lower-budget special effects of a TV program, although how they convinced anybody in-universe remains a bit open to question.

Also, Marvel Studios seems to be testing the waters pretty carefully for a Young Avengers move/series, given that nearly the entire original team has been introduced in one form or another.

[Dire_Flumph]

Spoiler

Show

The Timekeepers being... well, basically mid-grade animatronics is a rather clever way to justify the lower-budget special effects of a TV program, although how they convinced anybody in-universe remains a bit open to question.

Spoiler: Timekeepers

Show

Couldn't tell you why, but I found the sight of the other two animatronic "Timekeepers" laughing at their decapitated brother kind of chilling. Also what convinced me one or another Loki is the villain. Getting a chuckle at watching rats finding that the cheese in the maze was just another illusion leading to more maze seems spot on.

As for Sylvie and Loki:

Spoiler

Show

In general, I bloody hate romance in movies. In the MCU, I hated the Gamora-Starlord romance. I hated having a romance plotline in The Ditch earlier this year. I hated the romances in Friends, for god's sake.

... but **** me if I haven't fallen head over heels for these two Lokis loving each other and being the cutest thing ever. The actors sold the chemistry so well. At this point they might very well be my favourite media couple ever, even more than the Scarecrow and Mrs. King.

Spoiler: Lokis (Loci?)

Show

I used to think I hated romance in fiction. Was surprised to find out that I actually love romance in fiction, I just hate badly written romance which is most of it.

The two Lokis have great chemistry together, but I just don't see it as much of anything past Loki's narcissism and need to be accepted and loved by anyone. They are a lot of fun to watch together though.

On a slightly *ahem* more quizzical note, did no one at Disney catch the implications of the branch created by Loki's attraction being a line going straight up?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Spoiler

Show

The Timekeepers being... well, basically mid-grade animatronics is a rather clever way to justify the lower-budget special effects of a TV program, although how they convinced anybody in-universe remains a bit open to question.

Might be why they’re so adamant that next to no one get to meet them.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph

Spoiler

Show

On a slightly *ahem* more quizzical note, did no one at Disney catch the implications of the branch created by Loki's attraction being a line going straight up?

Spoiler

Show

I can't speak for Disney, but it never occurred to me to see that as anything but an especially divergent time branch.

[Psyren]

Disney has had subtle signs of arousal even in their own works, so Marvel doing it isn't particularly shocking.

This is entirely incidental to anything, but I wonder if TVA agents only get names once they pass a certain rank, and who chooses the names for them? Does Ravonna have a nametag during the flashback?

No nametag. Her uniform has (I think) "A-23" printed on the shoulder.

[lowfyr]

That actually makes her presence in FAWS make a lot more sense. Most of what I learned about the character was from Internet discussions about the comic book character. She comes out of nowhere with no explanation in FAWS, and you pick up from her attitude that she's villainous. She then doesn't do much other than drop some foreshadowing.

Re-order the release schedule and she appears in a totally different light. It's not "who is this?" Your reaction is supposed to be "oh crap HER".

I can't wait to find out what her role in Black Widow is and what our reaction was supposed to be? Either yours or something like "how could she survive what happened to her?"

As if I needed one more reason to watch this movie^^.