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Thread: Loki (2021)
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2021-07-05, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Gonna agree with Psyren here.
Spoiler
Loki and Sylvie...uh, I hope not. If it was literally any other media/character in existence then I would be okay with it, but this new subtext just makes it extremely weird and definitely has negative implications from the previous episode.
The shot of
Spoiler
the asteroids falling and Sylvie's line about the ends of worlds was really great, though.
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2021-07-05, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Spoiler: RenslayerRenslayer is a female variant of Kang the Conqueror. Yay or Nay?"Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"
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2021-07-05, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2021-07-06, 01:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
SpoilerNot likely for another reason as well- Ravonna (Renslayer's first name) is a known character from Kang's mythos- his love interest, the one woman who stood up to him. So while there is a strong connection to Kang... and for that matter, there has been a female Kang in the past on the Crosstime Council of Kangs (yes, that was a thing. Comics, everyone!) who might even have been Ravonna... it's very unlikely that they'd introduce Kang's love interest as a variant of himself, especially after they've just done exactly that with Loki.
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2021-07-06, 04:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Wait, what's Quantumania?
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2021-07-06, 05:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-07-06, 05:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
"Three blokes walk into a pub. One of them is a little bit stupid, and the whole scene unfolds with a tedious inevitability." - Bill Bailey
Androgeus' 3 step guide to Doctor Who speculation:
Spoiler- Pick a random character
- State that person is The Rani
- goto 1
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2021-07-06, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Why would Kang be in the Quantum realms?
So, we learned Pym particles help with time travel in End Game I guess. Is that why Kang gets involved you think?
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2021-07-06, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-07-06, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Spoiler: Blink and you'll miss itThe time city of Chronopolis that he is ruler of appears to be located there in the MCU. Rewatch this clip from Ant-Man and the Wasp, at 3:07 in the background:
As for why - the whole point of the Quantum Realm is that it is outside of the regular flow of time in some way - what better place? Hell, the TVA might be there - they might even be one and the same!
Also also:
Spoiler: Kang's real nameKang is the alias of one Nathaniel Richards. Yes, he's related to THAT Richards. So being smart enough to figure out the Quantum Realm and be able to live there would pretty much be a given.Last edited by Psyren; 2021-07-06 at 11:13 AM.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2021-07-07, 06:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Whoa boy, that was another doozy. Probably my favourite of the series to date. My random thoughts:
Spoiler: Ep5 Journey into Mystery
- THANOS COPTER IS NOW CANON IN AT LEAST ONE TIMELINE THAT MAKES ME SO HAPPY
- Every bit with ClassicLoki and AlligatorLoki was fantastic (with one exception*), loved the fight with PresidentLoki's gang. And that moment when kidLoki said that his nexus event was killing Thor, damn.
- Super happy that Mobius is still around, I know some in the thread have aren't that happy that he's just being Owen Wilson doing another Owen Wilson character, but I think he's got a great rapport with Loki - and now Sylvie too.
- Likewise, really come to appreciate the rapport between Loki & Sylvie. To be honest I really didn't find them connecting at all in Ep3/Lamentis (which has lead to that episode being the weakest out of the bunch** for me) but Eps 4+5 turned that around completely.
- Renslayer ... I don't really know what her deal is at this point. Prior to this episode I thought she was completely in on the charade, but then everyone in this episode thought that she was trying to find out the truth as well and .. I'm not convinced? I don't know, it's a hard feeling to put into words. On that note, I'm disappointed that Sylvie didn't catch on to her completely obvious betrayal instantly, you're a Loki for goodness sake.
- Apparently Alioth is a thing from the comics, looks like a fairly neat translation into the MCU.
* CLASSIC LOKI NOOOOOOOO, WHY DID YOU HAVE TO KILL HIM DAMMIT.
** So far, let's hope the finale doesn't disappoint.
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2021-07-07, 06:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-07-07, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-07-07, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Spoiler: Loki variantsClassic Loki steals every scene he's in and his final moments were glorious. What surprised me though is that his ruse didn't "ping" the TVA, since a Loki's life record doesn't extend past his encounter with Thanos.
I sure hope that Young Avengers rumour is true. I want to see more of that young Thorkiller Loki, and it looks to me his role for this season is done.
I'm just not getting the Gator Loki humor. I didn't like Groot either, which it reminded me of.
I would've loved to see more of Boastful Loki and an explanation on his hammer. Was he really lying that he beat Iron Man and Cap?
The other Lokis felt so tacked on and underutilized, but the betrayals work as reinforcement of what generic Lokis are supposed to be about. Speaking of which...
The possibility of betrayal is being telegraphed so hard. That aforementioned scene. The love-dagger metaphor. Sylvie asking if MC Loki will end up betraying her. At this point, I'm expecting it to happen, possibly Sylvie being the one to do it.
Spoiler: TVAGlad to see Mobius again, but what is he supposed to do again once he's back at the TVA? He'll likely get pruned in short order if he starts conflict, alongside whoever he told TVA's secret to. That is, unless Ravonna will be able to convince him to work with her in finding out the truth.
I'm confused on how Ravonna's story thread will end, though. If she's not in on the Timekeepers secret, then Kang is very unlikely to be the BBEG, which is good because a last-minute new character addition wouldn't work for me. I feel like all these conflict against Sylvie and eventually against the TVA seem so inconsequential that even Ravonna, who appears to be the most prominent antagonist figure, is clueless as to what she's even fighting for.
SpoilerI saw Mjolnir and what looked like a mini-Thor. From what I was told, it's Frog Thor (Throg) from the comics.
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2021-07-07, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Loki (2021)
SpoilerFrom what I understand, variants don't ping the TVA. If you oversleep for work when you're not supposed to and your boss says "No harm no foul" and everybody forgets it, that doesn't cause the TVA to come and prune you because the overall timeline hasn't changed. Your life still plays out the way it was supposed to apart from an hour or so when you were 20, and a new timeline isn't created. It's the same principle as changing your actions during an apocalypse - nobody who matters is affected, ergo no ripples creating a Nexus Event.
Classic Loki is the grand scale version of that. He pretended to die, and then for all intents and purposes stayed dead. He didn't influence the timeline past the point of his "death" because he was living alone on a remote planet and nobody knew he was alive. The timeline rolled on without noticing his survival.
Then he decides to reveal himself to the universe, to drop back in on Thor and see how he's doing. Instant Nexus Event, the TVA shows up, he gets pruned.
This also explains why there are so many "weird" Lokis. The Lokis can be very different from one another externally, but as long as they fulfill their role in the timeline the TVA don't care. It's only when they do something out of line (like killing Thor) that the TVA pings them and prunes them.
What makes me curious is why Sylvie got pruned. She wasn't doing anything untoward, she was just sat there playing with toys. Was it something she did? Was it a change in her thought processes that changed her future? Or was Ravonna running her own agenda even then?
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2021-07-07, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Loki (2021)
Spoiler: Sylvie and Ravonna
I found that bit very in character, specifically because she is a Loki. Loki is a treacherous trickster, but he also thinks he's smarter than everyone else. That gives him a giant blind spot when it comes to other people tricking him, as we saw to glorious effect with the LokiFight and its multilayered betrayals.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2021-07-07, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-07-07, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Spoiler
The show's approach to multiverse is a weird mashup of "Different timelines" and the classic comic "Alternate Worlds"
Like, some of the Lokis are "Loki if X happened", others seem to be "Loki, from a timeline that diverged long enough ago that Loki is a substantially different person".
Which doesn't quite gel with the idea that the TVA is preserving "The Sacred Timeline", since in that case they should have intervened long before that point.
If the Sacred Timeline requires Tom Hiddleston Loki, then how did a Timeline even get to the point of having an Alligator Loki?
We did see, from Loki and Sylvie's "Connection" that the act of decision can form a nexus event. Presumably, the TVA prefers to show up at that point, before the timeline can start branching. Except we've seen enough wildly different Lokis that, all things considered, SHOULD have had their timelines pruned before they could get to that point.
Like, Sylvie says that her crime was being born the Goddess of Mischief, but if that were the case, the TVA would have grabbed her earlier and reset the timeline. Just how in episode 1 the TVA intervened once Loki was in Mongolia, not when he was in New York surrounded by Avengers and SHIELD agents.
Like, it's possible the writers just want to have their cake and eat it too, playing with the idea of Multiverse and "The Sacred Timeline" simultaneously even if it doesn't make a ton of sense.
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2021-07-07, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
SpoilerI thought Classic Loki's explanation for that was good enough. He didn't cause a nexus event until he tried to return to the world after his 'death. So its not that you have to be Tom Hiddleston Loki, but that you have to do everything important TH Loki does, when he does it. Lokis are inherently chaotic though and refuse to stick to 'the plan' by their nature. Sylvie saying her divergence was being born mus be hyperbole, because she tries to interrogate Ravonna as to her nexus event.NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2021-07-07, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Spoiler: multiverseFor me the answer is simply this. They're lying about how the Multiverse and timeline work. We have zero reason to believe what they're saying about how the universe works is true.
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2021-07-07, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Loved it. Stoked for the finale.
Spoiler: Idle Sylvie TheoryIt's strange to me that of all the wild and wacky permutations, she is the ONLY female Loki.
But what if she isn't actually Loki?
I mean to say, she is Loki - Loki became Loki when he/they were adopted into Asgard royalty by Odin. But Sylvie from the comics, Sylvie Lushton, was an ordinary human who was fooled into thinking she was Asgardian by Loki, and became the Enchantress as a result. Could something similar have happened to this girl? What if what sets her apart is that she was in fact the only Loki who was not born, but made?
Her Nexus Event could simply have occurred when she - the wrong being - accepted her place in the family, and began thinking of herself as Loki in truth. The show's ultimate reveal might simply be that she is the most different Loki of all, by not actually being a Loki, until she chose to be. This would also neatly tie up any lingering squick from their blossoming "romance" if they aren't actually time-duplicates of one another, but rather two independent beings who happen to share a title.
I won't actually mind if that one ends up not being true but I thought it was interesting.
Spoiler: Classic LokiI loved the idea that if Loki simply gave up on his ambitions for conquest and (quite literally) his backstabbing nature, symbolized by eschewing blades, that he (and the rest of him) can see the true potential and dizzying heights his magic can reach. Going from Major Image to Mirage Arcana is a pretty strong indicator of what a Loki who breaks free of the TVA's tyrannical cycle can ultimately accomplish.
Spoiler: MobiusI suspect his first step will be locating and releasing B-15. No doubt Sylvie told him about her and that he'd have a powerful ally if she's freed. And given how easily she subdued Loki even outside the TVA, I suspect she'll be a badass fighter who will keep him from being pruned again.
Spoiler: RavonnaYou're assuming that she has to have a pre-existing connection to Kang in order for Kang to be involved. What you're not considering is the possibility that she IS just a brainwashed variant, but having found that out, simply doesn't care. Maybe her life pre-TVA actually sucked, and she is embracing her new role as an enforcer. And furthermore, she's determined to find the Man Behind the Curtain - but is doing so in order to swear fealty.
In other words, she can still end up roughly where she is in the comics - Kang's right hand - in spite of having been a dupe up until this point, rather than a willing accomplice, merely by becoming a willing accomplice now.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-07-07, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-07-07, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Take my love, take my land
Take me where I cannot stand.
I don't care, I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.
Defender of
Don't make me trot out Smite Moron!
Thanks to Sneak for the Avatar.
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2021-07-08, 12:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
SpoilerI did consider B-15. But after her conversation with Ravonna, I'm getting the feeling that they're on an uneasy alliance at the moment. So unless Ravonna is able to also sell that alliance of convenience to Mobius as I mentioned earlier, I'm just not confident B-15 will be his protector.
As for Ravonna being a blind follower of whoever's in charge, while that's technically a possible resolution, I'm still cautiously optimistic on how this will end. The first 2 episodes are tightly connected to each other narratively, especially on the TVA aspect, but only marginally consequential to where they're heading to in the finale.
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2021-07-08, 03:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Uh.... "alliance?" With the person who has you indefinitely locked up without trial? Were we watching the same episoode?
And I'm not sure why
Spoiler: RavonnaRavonna turning out to be okay with temporal oppression in spite of her origins
opposes "optimism" for the series as a whole.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2021-07-08, 04:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Yes. The same way MC Loki was temporarily allied with the organization that wanted him pruned for his temporal crimes. Were we watching the same series?
The series hasn't ended yet, so we don't know exactly how Ravonna's story thread is gonna conclude and how much whichever direction MCU chooses will make sense.
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2021-07-08, 05:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
What is especially frustrating to me is that episode 1 baked that double cake in a satisfying way, only for the rest of the series to ignore this.
Long ago, there was a vast multiversal war. Countless unique timelines battled each other for supremacy, nearly resulting in the total destruction of, well, everything. But then the all knowing time keepers emerged, bringing peace by reorganising the multiverse into a single timeline, the sacred timeline.
So, why not simply introduce the Lokis as remnants of the pre-TVA multiverse? Plus that would really emphasize Loki as a survivor, if so many of hims made it through this multiversal collapse.
But nooo. Instead, we have the TVA seemingly managing multiple timelines, trying to keep them within some general script. I guess that still includes a timeline where Loki is an alligator, only he did not step out of line by "eating the wrong neighbor's cat".
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2021-07-08, 05:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-07-08, 06:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
I think we can all be confident in saying that the series decided partway through that it was bored of its own premise and is quietly ignoring it.
Likely giving the MCU TV series' a three for three record on interesting starts that fall to bits in the back half.
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2021-07-08, 06:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
I really wanted more after this episode (in a good way). Really enjoyed it. :3
Spoiler: CakeI think that's one of the underlying messages for the audience to have by the end of this-- don't get wrapped up in the canon and the idea there is only one timeline, because it can otherwise stifle some really good story ideas.
I've read a lot of comics and those sure do a lot of rewriting history and canon. Still love the stories despite that, though. :3
Also, with this show messing around with it's own internal logic of how the TVA operates timeline pruning and adjustments, it could be just an unreliable narrator thing as it seems even the TVA was lied to as how their job works; the time keepers weren't real, pruning didn't disintegrate the victim, the agents are all varients, etc.
Spoiler: MobiusDon't forget that there were about half a dozen agents that saw Mobius pruned. Him coming back like nothing is going to raise a lot of questions and doubts about the TVA.
Spoiler: More MobiusIt's possible our Mobius came onboard the TVA after that arrest. If agents are just brainwashed varients, there might have been previous Mobius agents before and considering how they can go through agents like tissue paper, they probably had to replace him at least once (I think back to the scene where Ravonna tells him to use a coaster for his drink and he doesn't remember making those water stains).Last edited by DigoDragon; 2021-07-08 at 06:41 AM.