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Thread: Loki (2021)

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Right, but the displayed level of "allowed" variation is now so broad as to mean that what causes a nexus event now is so random as to be completely meaningless. If the mere existence of an alligator Loki didn't cause one, given how different the actions and choices leading up to that must have been.
    Different how? What special insight do you have into the centuries of Loki's existence prior to the MCU? Be specific.

    "One version of him was an alligator at some point in his lifespan, therefore the Avengers couldn't happen, plot-hole!" is a non-argument based on nothing but your assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Also, who's to say GatorLoki was always a gator? Boastful Loki could have just been flat out lying/making fun of GatorLoki when he talked about the cat...it could have been a botched shape-shifting spell or something that Gatorized him and drew TVA notice. Considering BLoki lies about literally everything else in his dialogue, why take this as truth?
    ^ Exactly - there's a ton of explanations for this before writing off the entire show based on one sentence by a proven liar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
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    I thought I mentioned it, maybe I didn't.
    Loki wasn't pruned, he was Rescued.

    The "Nexus Event" wasn't anything to do with Sylvie. Loki was about to die, which would have made it impossible for him to become TVALoki. He and Sylvie sat down, accepted each other, and, in that moment, accepted that they were about to die.
    That was the "Massive Nexus Event" that alerted the TVA and prompted them to intervene.

    Nexus Events shouldn't happen in apocalypses, because everybody nearby is about to die anyway. Unless somebody dying is, in of itself, the Nexus Event.

    NYLoki is pruned by TVA agents during the fight in the Time Keeper's chamber. That may have been part of TVA Loki's plan, but my guess is that TVA Loki doesn't have that level of control from behind the curtain, and the alert system can't pick up on events that happen within the TVA itself. Loki got into a fight, got pruned.

    TVALoki may be NYLoki who escaped with the Tesseract, ended up using it to go after the Time Stone, which he then used to set up the TVA.
    Or he may be a version of NYLoki who got grabbed by the TVA, worked his way up through their ranks, and eventually went back to the beginning of time to found the organization.
    Either would work. The TVA exists outside of standard time apparently, so who knows.


    Again, I don't disagree that this is possible. We'll have to wait and see.

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    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-07-08 at 01:59 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    i kinda figured Gator!Loki wasn't really a Loki. or at least not the same specific individual. Instead he's just a random Gator that Odin picked up at some point instead of the baby frost giant, and gave it the same name and upbringing. This could explain Hammer Loki and possibly Sylvie too.

    Loki is the frost giant baby that grows up to become Tom Hiddleston.

    Well, instead of attacking the frost giants that day, Odin went to a swamp and took in a baby alligator.

    or went to Muspelheim and picked up a fire giant baby

    or went to a different PART of JŲtunheimr and picked up a DIFFERENT frost giant baby.

    So genetically they'd all be different, but they'd be given the same name, upbringing, and treatment, helping mold their personality into what we know as Loki.
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2021-07-08 at 02:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Also, who's to say GatorLoki was always a gator? Boastful Loki could have just been flat out lying/making fun of GatorLoki when he talked about the cat...it could have been a botched shape-shifting spell or something that Gatorized him and drew TVA notice. Considering BLoki lies about literally everything else in his dialogue, why take this as truth?
    Unless that is part of the text, then it doesn't matter. Your confabulations are irrelevant to the text.

    Fanon to paper over the cracks in storytelling is just a great big obvious sign that the cracks are there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    So genetically they'd all be different, but they'd be given the same name, upbringing, and treatment, helping mold their personality into what we know as Loki.
    And none of them could have produced the events of the life of Loki Laufeyson. In all of those cases, the movie Thor cannot happen any more.

    So every single one of those Odins, Lokis, and timelines gets pruned because every single one is a Nexus Event in its own right.

    And if that doesn't happen, then the entire structural concept of this TV series falls into a hole because the central conflict is based on the protagonists fighting against a strict interpretation of the "right" way to be according to an unknown authority. If that isn't even happening because wacky old Odin could have adopted any random piece of nonsense he happened upon and that was okay, then what are our protagonists fighting for?
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-07-08 at 02:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Unless that is part of the text, then it doesn't matter. Your confabulations are irrelevant to the text.

    Fanon to paper over the cracks in storytelling is just a great big obvious sign that the cracks are there.
    And fanon to invent those cracks is?

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    And none of them could have produced the events of the life of Loki Laufeyson. In all of those cases, the movie Thor cannot happen any more.
    You know how long a century is right?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    And none of them could have produced the events of the life of Loki Laufeyson. In all of those cases, the movie Thor cannot happen any more.

    So every single one of those Odins, Lokis, and timelines gets pruned because every single one is a Nexus Event in its own right.

    And if that doesn't happen, then the entire structural concept of this TV series falls into a hole because the central conflict is based on the protagonists fighting against a strict interpretation of the "right" way to be according to an unknown authority. If that isn't even happening because wacky old Odin could have adopted any random piece of nonsense he happened upon and that was okay, then what are our protagonists fighting for?
    Tend to agree. They're going to have a hard time coming up with a satisfying conclusion for episode 6. Though I suppose they could end it on a cliffhanger, since this one has a season 2 coming last I heard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And fanon to invent those cracks is?
    Any interpretation of Gator!Loki where he isn't actually an alligator. As far as the show has told us, that is an alligator and it is Loki. It is not shapeshifted into an alligator, it is Loki who was always an alligator. Any suggestion otherwise is fanon.

    Tell me, how does an Alligator participate in any of the events of the MCU in the place of Loki?

    You know how long a century is right?
    Irrelevant. Any Loki who is not Loki Laufeyson cannot perform the actions which precipitated the events of Thor. It relied on him being an Ice Giant, and specifically being the son of the king of the Ice Giants. It only happened because Odin adopted one very specific child.

    So any adoption of any child who is not Loki Laufeyson is a nexus event, it prevents events we know to be on the Sacred Timeline from occurring.

    Which means that the thing on which the central conflict rests is broken in a way that does not support that conflict any more. The conflict can survive the reason for the TVA being different, it can't survive the TVA not being strict in enforcing variation from a single vision of the "sacred timeline", because that strictness is what the protagonists are fighting against.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    And none of them could have produced the events of the life of Loki Laufeyson. In all of those cases, the movie Thor cannot happen any more

    Well i mean, Child loki and Sylvie clearly get pruned before the events of Thor. so i'm not sure how this is a problem?

    Gator!Loki could have also been pruned pre-thor. the only ones we know for sure / supposedly happen post!Thor ar Old! Loki (who tells us how he escapes, everything else was the same until then) and Hamme!Loki, who is still perfectly capable of stealing the tesseract, allying with the ice (or fire?) giants, and sending a giant robot to earth. So again... no real problems here.
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2021-07-08 at 03:35 PM.
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    Not really? Whatever the precise mechanics of Variance, the TVA has still *effectively* constrained free will in general and specifically contributed heavily to trapping Lokis in particular in a cycle of self-destruction.
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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Tell me, how does an Alligator participate in any of the events of the MCU in the place of Loki?
    In the same universe as Throg?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Well i mean, Child loki and Sylvie clearly get pruned before the events of Thor. so i'm not sure how this is a problem?

    Gator!Loki could have also been pruned pre-thor. the only ones we know for sure / supposedly happen post!Thor ar Old! Loki (who tells us how he escapes, everything else was the same until then) and Hamme!Loki, who is still perfectly capable of stealing the tesseract, allying with the ice (or fire?) giants, and sending a giant robot to earth. So again... no real problems here.
    Right, but the point at which it becomes a nexus event is the moment Odin adopts it. Because everything on Asgard in that timeline from then on has to be different because one of the princes is now an alligator.

    And if that's not the case, if Loki can just be an alligator for whatever unspecified amount of time it takes for asgardian alligators to grow to three to four feet long and that not have caused any nexus events at all, then the concept of nexus events becomes random meaningless nonsense which the audience can no longer connect with and no longer have any meaning for the protagonists. Loki was declared an invalid variant because of chance.

    And that also means that any plan behind the TVA and the sacred timeline whatever it turns out to be is also incoherent nonsense because it can accept an entire universe where Loki is an alligator for an unspecified period of time, but can't accept one where he skips out after New York for more than thirty seconds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Right, but the point at which it becomes a nexus event is the moment Odin adopts it. Because everything on Asgard in that timeline from then on has to be different because one of the princes is now an alligator.

    And if that's not the case, if Loki can just be an alligator for whatever unspecified amount of time it takes for asgardian alligators to grow to three to four feet long and that not have caused any nexus events at all, then the concept of nexus events becomes random meaningless nonsense which the audience can no longer connect with and no longer have any meaning for the protagonists. Loki was declared an invalid variant because of chance.

    And that also means that any plan behind the TVA and the sacred timeline whatever it turns out to be is also incoherent nonsense because it can accept an entire universe where Loki is an alligator for an unspecified period of time, but can't accept one where he skips out after New York for more than thirty seconds.
    the issue is that the initial take on the TVA maps pretty cleanly into many-worlds explanation.

    I am buying groceries, I consider buying a candy bar. I create two timelines, one in which I bought a candy bar, one in which I didn't.

    The first episode implies that if I bought the candy bar, I'd be grabbed by the TVA, and a timeline charge would zap the grocery store into the timeline where I didn't, because the Sacred Timeline doesn't have me buying a candy bar there.

    Now, we can say that they only intervene for "Important" events, the the existence of Sylvie and Gator-Loki imply that there are worlds that have diverged enough from the MCU timeline that Loki can be a girl or an alligator without triggering a Nexus event yet. Meanwhile Sylvie can attract a squad of TVA agents by killing some random churchgoers. Which is a lot messier than the "Sacred Timeline" explanation we're given.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Right, but the point at which it becomes a nexus event is the moment Odin adopts it. Because everything on Asgard in that timeline from then on has to be different because one of the princes is now an alligator.

    And if that's not the case, if Loki can just be an alligator for whatever unspecified amount of time it takes for asgardian alligators to grow to three to four feet long and that not have caused any nexus events at all, then the concept of nexus events becomes random meaningless nonsense which the audience can no longer connect with and no longer have any meaning for the protagonists. Loki was declared an invalid variant because of chance.

    And that also means that any plan behind the TVA and the sacred timeline whatever it turns out to be is also incoherent nonsense because it can accept an entire universe where Loki is an alligator for an unspecified period of time, but can't accept one where he skips out after New York for more than thirty seconds.

    Considering they didn't pick up Silvie / Female!Loki until she was around eight years old, there must be some amount of wiggle-room. Gator!Loki could still be quite young all things considering.

    Keep in mind that from what we've seen, Nexus Events seem to only really happen around things that would cause major deviations in history. As people have said here before, if you sleep in an extra hour and end up late for work, that's not going to have any long-term consequences. if you shoot a man who's supposed to live fifty more years and meet new people, THAT is going to cause a problem.

    Considering Loki is royalty, the first few years of their lives might not have a whole lot of inpact on Asgard as a whole. your average Asgard citizen likely doesn't personally know or have any one-on-one interaction with any Asgardian royalty in any way that a Loki could affect. Home much affect does the four-year-old that lives down the street from you have on your life? probably not a whole lot.

    So way i see it, things go something like this:

    Sylvie: Is a girl, but lives as the princess in the castle for the first (Equivalent to) 8 / 10 years of her life, nothing really happens differently. no nexus event. Then maybe there's a big meeting with other kids, or she goes to a public school or something. In the normal timeline, one child feels indifferent to Loki, nothing particular happens. In this timeline, because Loki is a girl, the kid might instead develop a crush on her. Which could lead to an attempt at a relationship, which could mean not hooking up with someone who is supposed to be their spouse, meaning people who were supposed to be their children are never born, etc etc etc. THAT is a nexus event worth pruning. A sheltered life inside the castle with no major interaction outside family and close friends isn't going to cause any major deviation (as we've seen with Old! Loki.

    So in Gator! Loki's case, same thing. First equivalent 8/10 years, nothing major really happens, only close family and friends interact with him, but they all kinda just see him and go "Ok, a Gator. okay." and move on with their lives. It's not until he eats a cat that's not SUPPOSED to be eaten that it's actually a problem. That cat was supposed to grow older, meet new people, maybe have kittens, none of that can happen now. Nexus event.

    New york's Loki was never supposed to leave New York. he was supposed to be arrested and brought to Asgard, the people in Mongolia were never intended to see him. As mentioned before, had he seen the tesseract but not touched it, or picked it up and then just handed it back to Thor, there wouldn't have been a problem, as he's still end up in that Asgard prison cell.

    Choosing to buy an O-henry instead of M&M's isn't going to cause a nexus event. Deciding to set the grocery store on fire with everyone locked inside WILL.
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2021-07-08 at 04:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Considering they didn't pick up Silvie / Female!Loki until she was around eight years old, there must be some amount of wiggle-room. Gator!Loki could still be quite young all things considering.

    Keep in mind that from what we've seen, Nexus Events seem to only really happen around things that would cause major deviations in history. As people have said here before, if you sleep in an extra hour and end up late for work, that's not going to have any long-term consequences. if you shoot a man who's supposed to live fifty more years and meet new people, THAT is going to cause a problem.

    Considering Loki is royalty, the first few years of their lives might not have a whole lot of inpact on Asgard as a whole. your average Asgard citizen likely doesn't personally know or have any one-on-one interaction with any Asgardian royalty in any way that a Loki could affect. Home much affect does the four-year-old that lives down the street from you have on your life? probably not a whole lot.

    So way i see it, things go something like this:

    Sylvie: Is a girl, but lives as the princess in the castle for the first (Equivalent to) 8 / 10 years of her life, nothing really happens differently. no nexus event. Then maybe there's a big meeting with other kids, or she goes to a public school or something. In the normal timeline, one child feels indifferent to Loki, nothing particular happens. In this timeline, because Loki is a girl, the kid might instead develop a crush on her. Which could lead to an attempt at a relationship, which could mean not hooking up with someone who is supposed to be their spouse, meaning people who were supposed to be their children are never born, etc etc etc. THAT is a nexus event worth pruning. A sheltered life inside the castle with no major interaction outside family and close friends isn't going to cause any major deviation (as we've seen with Old! Loki.

    So in Gator! Loki's case, same thing. First equivalent 8/10 years, nothing major really happens, only close family and friends interact with him, but they all kinda just see him and go "Ok, a Gator. okay." and move on with their lives. It's not until he eats a cat that's not SUPPOSED to be eaten that it's actually a problem. That cat was supposed to grow older, meet new people, maybe have kittens, none of that can happen now. Nexus event.

    Choosing to buy an O-henry instead of M&M's isn't going to cause a nexus event. Deciding to set the grocery store on fire with everyone locked inside WILL.
    I mean, that gets into questions of causality and such, but if the TVA isn't alerted to "Things being different" but "Things changing".

    Like, Sylvie is the Goddess of Mischief, but that doesn't show up until the point where her being a girl changes something that actually matters.

    We know that Sylvie "Always knew she was adopted", and telling her that didn't ping a nexus event.

    Maybe, while Sylvie is playing with her toys, Odin and Freya are in the next room saying "Hrmm, it would probably be a good idea to make sure Sylvie gets to know some girls her own age, rather than just hanging around with Thor and his friends", and THAT decision (giving Sylvie a social network independent of Thor) would alter her development into a goddess who wouldn't do what the sacred timeline required of her vis-a-vis betrayal and villainy.
    That moment the TVA gets pinged and show up to grab Sylvie. Even though that event was precipitated by her being female, up until that point she was still "On track" to play her role, so no nexus event happened.
    They grab Sylvie either because 1) The TVA goons can't just grab Odin and Freya, or 2) The Nexus Event alerted them to the existence of the timeline in the first place.

    Thus, multiple timelines can exist so long as everything still falls into place. The TVA might not be diverted until long after the "Divergence Point" happens, just as soon as something happens that their equipment is sensitive enough to pick up as things going "Off Script"

    Which means that either 1) Gator Loki wasn't always a Gator, or 2) It took a while before "The god of mischief is a gator" was relevant to the Sacred Timeline.
    Last edited by BRC; 2021-07-08 at 04:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Which means that either 1) Gator Loki wasn't always a Gator, or 2) It took a while before "The god of mischief is a gator" was relevant to the Sacred Timeline.
    And since 1 is not in the show, it can only be 2, but 2 is really stupid because it means that the whole concept of the sacred timeline and nexus events is absolute garbage now.

    But that's what the conflict is built on, so that undermines the entire show.

    Thus, multiple timelines can exist so long as everything still falls into place. The TVA might not be diverted until long after the "Divergence Point" happens, just as soon as something happens that their equipment is sensitive enough to pick up as things going "Off Script"
    They can go anywhere in time. Even if they found out about a "divergence point" a million years after it happened they could go right to it and make it not happen.
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-07-08 at 04:49 PM.

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    The only problem with Loki being the final bad guy is that they've been dropping a lot of Kang hints. Now, at its core, the show is about lying and subverting expectations, so it's possible that they're all red herrings...but it's a bit weird since most of the hints towards Kang are not things that people would notice unless they're fairly hardcore comic fans.

    At this point I don't really care who it is as long as there's some sort of resolution that makes the plot matter and make sense. They've been relying on a series of mystery boxes to carry the show instead of actually telling us a plot, and eventually that won't hold up anymore.

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    they're only alerted to nexus events though. they don't know what's happening everywhere at all times, they only know when something goes wrong that might end up creating a parallels universe.

    Consider the Time Heist in Endgame. those interactions with the Avengers in the Past clearly created or happened in alternate realities, as they did NOT happen in the actual past of the movies. but because everything was put back right where it belonged and nothing major changed, it's all still on course.

    So in "Our" timeline Tony's dad never talked to his grown-up son in what was it, Nevada? And in the timeline where Tony stole the Tesseract, he did. But nothing major changed from that event. Stark Sr. will still die, Thanos will still get the stone, and red skull will still be teleported away. so it gets to keep on running, even though it's clearly not the same as the one we've come from.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    they're only alerted to nexus events though. they don't know what's happening everywhere at all times, they only know when something goes wrong that might end up creating a parallels universe.
    But they do. Because they are watching time from the outside. It doesn't matter when a nexus event occurs relative to them getting off their asses to do something about it, they can arrive exactly at the nexus event.

    Consider the Time Heist in Endgame. those interactions with the Avengers in the Past clearly created or happened in alternate realities, as they did NOT happen in the actual past of the movies. but because everything was put back right where it belonged and nothing major changed, it's all still on course.

    So in "Our" timeline Tony's dad never talked to his grown-up son in what was it, Nevada? And in the timeline where Tony stole the Tesseract, he did. But nothing major changed from that event. Stark Sr. will still die, Thanos will still get the stone, and red skull will still be teleported away. so it gets to keep on running, even though it's clearly not the same as the one we've come from.
    But of course they did happen. They're part of the sacred timeline, they were always meant to happen. They were off screen in the original versions we saw, but they always happened.

    It doesn't matter if you walk to the store or skip to the store, so long as you show up at the store
    Unless it does, because now nexus events are random nonsense and nobody can say what is or isn't one because Loki can be an alligator and that isn't a nexus event at all, but playing with dolls wrong is for Sylvie.

    Which means that no plan based on "preserving the sacred timeline" is coherent any more no matter its goal, because clearly nothing matters a damn about the contents of the timeline.
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-07-08 at 05:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    And since 1 is not in the show, it can only be 2, but 2 is really stupid because it means that the whole concept of the sacred timeline and nexus events is absolute garbage now.

    But that's what the conflict is built on, so that undermines the entire show.



    They can go anywhere in time. Even if they found out about a "divergence point" a million years after it happened they could go right to it and make it not happen.
    I really don't get why you're so hung up on this. It's literally a show about one of the most well known liars in all of fiction. Why are you clutching your pearls so hard that some of the information we're given in the show might not have been true? All that we objectively know as true is that the TVA sometimes prunes timelines when things they don't like happen. Literally everything else has been told to us by lying liars who have been shown to be lying.

    The conflict of the show is built on whoever is behind the TVA destroying timelines and variant's lives. Whether the "sacred timeline" as a concept actually exists or was just something fed to the TVA to keep them compliant is completely irrelevant to the core conflict of the show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    they're only alerted to nexus events though. they don't know what's happening everywhere at all times, they only know when something goes wrong that might end up creating a parallels universe.

    Consider the Time Heist in Endgame. those interactions with the Avengers in the Past clearly created or happened in alternate realities, as they did NOT happen in the actual past of the movies. but because everything was put back right where it belonged and nothing major changed, it's all still on course.

    So in "Our" timeline Tony's dad never talked to his grown-up son in what was it, Nevada? And in the timeline where Tony stole the Tesseract, he did. But nothing major changed from that event. Stark Sr. will still die, Thanos will still get the stone, and red skull will still be teleported away. so it gets to keep on running, even though it's clearly not the same as the one we've come from.


    It doesn't matter if you walk to the store or skip to the store, so long as you show up at the store
    The issue is "What causes a nexus event"

    Let's say that the Sacred Timeline requires me to order a pizza on July 11th, 2021. That is the Critical Event, the thing that actually Matters.

    Does the TVA get alerted to a nexus event on July 11th, when I fail to order that pizza?

    Do they get alerted, say, June 3rd, when I am sentenced to prison?

    Do they get alerted February 10th, when I get arrested for having robbed a liquor store.

    Do they get alerted February 9th, when I rob the liquor store?

    Do they get alerted February 1st, when I decide to rob the liquor store?

    What about August 19th, 2020, when I lost my job?

    What about July 29th 2020, when my boss decided to fire me due to my repeated absences and lack of focus?

    What about July 11th, 2020 when I finally got around to watching The Wire, and got so into it that I would call in sick to work so I could spend all day watching it?

    What about December 25th, 2011, when my Brother told me that I should watch The Wire?


    If the event that they care about is me failing to order that pizza, which of the preceding events is the "Nexus Event" that they intervene at?

    I guess one answer is that they start at the Nexus Event (The Pizza that wasn't ordered) and work their way backwards down my personal timeline until they find a point that 1) Isn't part of the sacred timeline, and 2) I'm isolated enough for a squad of Minutemen to grab.

    So if I "Diverged" From the sacred timeline on July 11th, 2020, when I decided to watch The Wire, they might grab me at any point after that where they saw an opportunity, because the divergence isn't what they care about.

    So if we have three moments, the "Nexus Event" (When the TVA is alerted), the Divergence Event (Where things actually diverge) and the Intervention (Where the TVA agents show up). Those three events can be different, with the Intervention occuring at any point after the Divergence, but before the Nexus.
    Last edited by BRC; 2021-07-08 at 05:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I really don't get why you're so hung up on this. It's literally a show about one of the most well known liars in all of fiction. Why are you clutching your pearls so hard that some of the information we're given in the show might not have been true? All that we objectively know as true is that the TVA sometimes prunes timelines when things they don't like happen. Literally everything else has been told to us by lying liars who have been shown to be lying.

    The conflict of the show is built on whoever is behind the TVA destroying timelines and variant's lives. Whether the "sacred timeline" as a concept actually exists or was just something fed to the TVA to keep them compliant is completely irrelevant to the core conflict of the show.
    Because there needs to be a dramatically satisfying reason for it that the protagonists will react to with anything other than resigned annoyance and mild shock.

    When Loki learns the truth about why it's happening, it needs to shock him to the core of his being, because that's what good dramatic revelations in this sort of work do to their protagonists.

    And there's pretty much no way to do that with something that's so inconsistent it's functionally random.

    The reason why the TVA do what they do can be a lie, but what they are doing can't. Unless they're presented as carrying out actions towards a goal in a way the audience can recognise as consistent and directed, then what they're doing isn't interesting. There can be no interesting answers to the mystery of "who's really behind the TVA and what do they want" without them appearing to take consistent actions towards that want.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    The issue is "What causes a nexus event"

    Let's say that the Sacred Timeline requires me to order a pizza on July 11th, 2021. That is the Critical Event, the thing that actually Matters.

    Does the TVA get alerted to a nexus event on July 11th, when I fail to order that pizza?

    Do they get alerted, say, June 3rd, when I am sentenced to prison?

    Do they get alerted February 10th, when I get arrested for having robbed a liquor store.

    Do they get alerted February 9th, when I rob the liquor store?

    Do they get alerted February 1st, when I decide to rob the liquor store?

    What about August 19th, 2020, when I lost my job?

    What about July 29th 2020, when my boss decided to fire me due to my repeated absences and lack of focus?

    What about July 11th, 2020 when I finally got around to watching The Wire, and got so into it that I would call in sick to work so I could spend all day watching it?

    What about December 25th, 2011, when my Brother told me that I should watch The Wire?


    If the event that they care about is me failing to order that pizza, which of the preceding events is the "Nexus Event" that they intervene at?

    I guess one answer is that they start at the Nexus Event (The Pizza that wasn't ordered) and work their way backwards down my personal timeline until they find a point that 1) Isn't part of the sacred timeline, and 2) I'm isolated enough for a squad of Minutemen to grab.

    So if I "Diverged" From the sacred timeline on July 11th, 2020, when I decided to watch The Wire, they might grab me at any point after that where they saw an opportunity, because the divergence isn't what they care about.

    So if we have three moments, the "Nexus Event" (When the TVA is alerted), the Divergence Event (Where things actually diverge) and the Intervention (Where the TVA agents show up). Those three events can be different, with the Intervention occuring at any point after the Divergence, but before the Nexus.

    Considering what we've seen, I'd say the Nexus event would be when you don't order the pizza. And they'd show up at your house shortly after you were supposed to get the pizza and take you away, pruning your timeline in the process. The pizza didn't happen, so that's when you're taken away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Considering what we've seen, I'd say the Nexus event would be when you don't order the pizza. And they'd show up at your house shortly after you were supposed to get the pizza and take you away, pruning your timeline in the process. The pizza didn't happen, so that's when you're taken away.
    But that doesn't fix the problem. Arresting me doesn't get that pizza ordered.

    Unless their reset charge places a version of Me that never went to jail/robbed the store/lost his job in my apartment, craving a pizza.
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    the reset charges as far as i've seen, removes everything that lead up to that moment too. If your nexus point is you killing a man, then even if they show up AFTER you kill the man, then pruning the timeline will make it so that the shooting never happened, so the man is still alive.

    So them pruning your timeline would erase everything that lead up to you not ordering the pizza, your arrest, your watching of the wire, anything that happened to lead to that gets erased and smoothed over.

    Think of it like cutting off the branch of a tree. You want a straight and narrow tree-trunk, but it's sprouted a branch in the middle while you weren't looking. So you cut off the branch as close to the trunk as possible (That's capturing you and taking you away) and then sand away at the stump until there's nothing but smooth trunk left, and give it a quick patch-job. (that's the pruning of the timeline). So now all you have is the night straight and narrow tree-trunk.

    By your logic, The Tesseract wouldn't exist anymore because Loki took it away from new york to Mongolia and it got taken away with him, and all of humanity is doomed because there is no space stone in the universe. What actually happened is they erased the entire timeline where he gets ahold of the tesseract and teleports away.
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2021-07-08 at 06:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Because there needs to be a dramatically satisfying reason for it that the protagonists will react to with anything other than resigned annoyance and mild shock.

    When Loki learns the truth about why it's happening, it needs to shock him to the core of his being, because that's what good dramatic revelations in this sort of work do to their protagonists.

    And there's pretty much no way to do that with something that's so inconsistent it's functionally random.

    The reason why the TVA do what they do can be a lie, but what they are doing can't. Unless they're presented as carrying out actions towards a goal in a way the audience can recognise as consistent and directed, then what they're doing isn't interesting. There can be no interesting answers to the mystery of "who's really behind the TVA and what do they want" without them appearing to take consistent actions towards that want.
    See, that's where you lose me. There's absolutely no reason that Loki needs to be "shocked to the core of his being" for the show to be good or consistent. Even if it were true, there's absolutely no reason that the Sacred Timeline stuff has to be true for it to happen. We're gearing up to reveal the man behind the curtain in the next episode, and there's no reason their motivation can't be compelling just because it isn't the same one we were given in the first episode.

    We know that someone created the TVA to manage timelines. We don't know why. Maybe they are trying to preserve a "sacred timeline" like the first episode said, or (more likely) maybe they just step in whenever they detect something that might eventually become a threat to them, and just gave their soldiers some nice propaganda to keep them in line. The motivation is largely irrelevant to the main theme of the show which is "Loki is a man out of time, and someone wants to kill him for that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    the reset charges as far as i've seen, removes everything that lead up to that moment too. If your nexus point is you killing a man, then even if they show up AFTER you kill the man, then pruning the timeline will make it so that the shooting never happened, so the man is still alive.

    So them pruning your timeline would erase everything that lead up to you not ordering the pizza, your arrest, your watching of the wire, anything that happened to lead to that gets erased and smoothed over.

    Think of it like cutting off the branch of a tree. You want a straight and narrow tree-trunk, but it's sprouted a branch in the middle while you weren't looking. So you cut off the branch as close to the trunk as possible (That's capturing you and taking you away) and then sand away at the stump until there's nothing but smooth trunk left, and give it a quick patch-job. (that's the pruning of the timeline). So now all you have is the night straight and narrow tree-trunk.

    By your logic, The Tesseract wouldn't exist anymore because Loki took it away from new york to Mongolia and it got taken away with him, and all of humanity is doomed because there is no space stone in the universe. What actually happened is they erased the entire timeline where he gets ahold of the tesseract and teleports away.
    My understanding of the reset button is that it destroys the whole timeline after whatever point the variant caused a new one.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2021-07-08 at 06:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    My understanding of the reset button is that it destroys the whole timeline after whatever point the variant caused a new one.
    yea pretty much. it'd need to also go backwards a bit though too. otherwise they'd just be stuck in a loop of wiping the same timeline again and again.



    Speaking off, kinda surprised that mass-bombing of the sacred timeline didn't really go anywhere. what was even the point of that? just to get the TVA agents out of the TVA? Really thought we were going somewhere with that.
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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Speaking off, kinda surprised that mass-bombing of the sacred timeline didn't really go anywhere. what was even the point of that? just to get the TVA agents out of the TVA? Really thought we were going somewhere with that.
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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    I think a lot of the people mad at the existence of Hammer Loki and Gator Loki are ignoring the fundamental fact that the TVA is a time travel agency.

    Sure, they do have to prune things eventually before they get out of control, but things that happen in the future are already recorded in the present. As long as they clean up the mess before it affects other timelines (or begins having a large chance of affecting other timelines), no problem.

    And they didnít respond to every divergence exactly the moment it took place, did they? The protagonist Loki wasnít picked up when he decided to grab the Cube off the floor, the TVA only arrived when he teleported all the way to Mongolia!
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Any interpretation of Gator!Loki where he isn't actually an alligator. As far as the show has told us, that is an alligator and it is Loki. It is not shapeshifted into an alligator, it is Loki who was always an alligator. Any suggestion otherwise is fanon.

    Tell me, how does an Alligator participate in any of the events of the MCU in the place of Loki?
    Sure thing! Let me take a second to use this mystical thing I have called imagination for just a second.

    One easy way that Alligator!Loki can cause the Avengers is by no longer being an alligator by the time the Battle of New York rolls around, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years after he was born. You know, because magic, and gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Irrelevant. Any Loki who is not Loki Laufeyson cannot perform the actions which precipitated the events of Thor. It relied on him being an Ice Giant, and specifically being the son of the king of the Ice Giants. It only happened because Odin adopted one very specific child.
    Wrong again. It relies on an adopted non-royal child who is smarter than their sibling (the biological prince), is jealous of them because they have everything including handed to them due to said biology despite being undeserving, and who dislikes their father and loves their mother as a result. That's literally it. If Loki were really a fire giant instead of a frost giant, or Thor/Odin/Freya were Eternals instead of Asgardians, nothing would change.

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    The reason why the TVA do what they do can be a lie, but what they are doing can't.
    They literally just did this.

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    (i.e. pruning) was in fact shown to be a lie - they presented it, even to their own agents as erasing {things/people they don't like} from the timeline utterly, when in reality all they were doing was chucking {those things/people} to the very end of it. Sure it's a fine distinction when they have a cosmic garbage disposal there devouring it all anyway, but the point is that all you need to get back from there is a Tempad and a little cleverness.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vrock Bait View Post
    I think a lot of the people mad at the existence of Hammer Loki and Gator Loki are ignoring the fundamental fact that the TVA is a time travel agency.

    Sure, they do have to prune things eventually before they get out of control, but things that happen in the future are already recorded in the present. As long as they clean up the mess before it affects other timelines (or begins having a large chance of affecting other timelines), no problem.

    And they didnít respond to every divergence exactly the moment it took place, did they? The protagonist Loki wasnít picked up when he decided to grab the Cube off the floor, the TVA only arrived when he teleported all the way to Mongolia!
    Exactly. And this is easy (for most people) to parse. If he had picked up the cube only for Coulson to slap it out of his hand, nothing would change in the grand scheme of things, he'd still have ended up in the Raft and the cube would have still ended up in Odin's vault. No big change = no Nexus Event.
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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    I do have to wonder about the efficacy of a melee attack that transports your opponent so that maybe something else will kill it for you. Maybe just stab the person instead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Any interpretation of Gator!Loki where he isn't actually an alligator.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    One easy way that Alligator!Loki can cause the Avengers is by no longer being an alligator by the time the Battle of New York rolls around
    Ah yes, that conversation sure is rolling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I do have to wonder about the efficacy of a melee attack that transports your opponent so that maybe something else will kill it for you. Maybe just stab the person instead?
    Yeah, it is absurd. Plus, it looks like reset areas and pruned variants all end up in the same place, so why even bother capturing the latter?

    I am going to throw in a final-episode theory. Being a true variant, i.e. someone who can make two mutually exclusive decisions at once and split the timeline along these, is a superpower. Whoever is behind the TVA wants to steal as much of that power as they can, which they do through Alioth. The location of a nexus event is suffused with that power, so it is sent to Alioth, but an extra step is taken to make sure the true variant themself is sent, and preferably alive.

    Some lesser variants, mainly time travellers, are caught in the same trap, but Alioth's master doesn't care.

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