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Thread: Loki (2021)

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    I agree with thatSeniorGuy.

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    I liked it, but with caveats. Took a long time to get to anything very important, which turned out to be more or less exactly what we've already been told since episode 1. As a reveal it worked fine, but I think it needed more 'oomph' to really sell it. Maybe have spent longer on obfuscating that the twist was that there was no twist in order to keep us guessing and keep the tension high for a while longer.

    All in all, it felt much more like a penultimate episode than a series finale. Getting introduced to Kang, hearing his history and plan, and ending on a cliff-hanger that there was a WORSE Kang now in charge, after an episode which was 90% talking, made me feel like now I wanted to see Loki fight Kang and resolve something. Resolve anything.

    Right now though we've gone 6 episodes and Kang is still secretly in charge (in that no one knows he is evil or whatever), the TVA is still standing, and Loki is still disguised as a low-level grunt with no authority or real agency. It feels like 6 episodes of prologue - an enjoyable one, don't get me wrong, and I hope it's clear that my position is that I want MORE of this great show - but the wrong place on which to end a series.
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    Well, that's certainly a lot of plot holes. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by Marvel just ignoring those and hoping people won't think too hard about them at this point. "You're not supposed to think/care about that" is not good storytelling, although a surprising amount of people don't seem to mind as long as there is enough spectacle to replace good storytelling. I suppose I can understand that to an extent.

    Hiddleston's charisma is still doing the vast majority of the heavy lifting to carry this show. I'll probably pick up the second season whenever it airs, but I'm not super invested or anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Hiddleston's charisma is still doing the vast majority of the heavy lifting to carry this show. I'll probably pick up the second season whenever it airs, but I'm not super invested or anything.
    People declaring in Marvel threads how little they care for Marvel shows and movies, while also being clear that they plan to continue watching them and join the next thread, is a neverending font of amusement for me

    Quote Originally Posted by thatSeniorGuy View Post
    Glad you guys enjoyed it.

    Spoiler: E6: For all time. Always.
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    I won't say disliked it, it was just ... fine, I guess? That's always the risk with these sort of mystery-based series, there's the chance the reveal won't quite live up to your expectations. And I will emphasise that below is all my personal taste, so if you thought it was fantastic more power to you!
    So:
    • Really, the series was just a set up to Antman and the Wasp: Quantumania
    • The TVA, the Time-keepers and the Sacred Timeline: I think this is where my (mild) dissatisfaction stems from. Essentially, most of what has been said previously was correct. There was a multiverse, there was a multiversal war, and the TVA was created to prune timelines to avoid a future war. The founding idea was to prevent anarchy, and not for any (say) "personnel gain". The only thing that really changed was that HWR/Kang was the person ultimately in charge, and his variants were the cause of the war. I guess I expected a bigger reveal that would overturn a lot of the stated premise, when really only a few detailed were changed.
    • He Who Remains/Kang - didn't quite jive with JM's performance, he felt a bit too erratic. Will be interesting to see how he portrays Kang, who presumably will be a lot more .. grounded.
    • I felt like there was a lot of dead air in this episode that could have been trimmed, in particular with the exploration of the manor. And Loki & Sylvie felt extremely passive during the exposition.
    • The Kiss - well now I will say I did smile at this part (and not in a creep way I swear!)
    • Mobius and B-15 - disappointing that essentially all their character development has been wiped away by whatever happened to the TVA ... but on the other hand, it does give us an excellent chance to reconnect with the characters in season 2.
    • Ravonna and changed Kang!TVA - on that note about the TVA. I'm guessing whatever Ravonna did when she stepped through the portal was the cause of the TVA's "change in leadership" - but I'm not sure why HWR would get her to do that.
    • Also interesting that the timeline appeared to be circular ... very interesting implications.


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    - Like Thanos - and many other good villains - Kang is supremely arrogant and believes he is ultimately the hero. His assumption is that only he can keep himself in check, but he's forgetting among other things that infinite Kangs (villains) means infinite heroes too.
    - HWR Kang is supposed to be a bit erratic, he's been by himself for... god knows how long with only his wacky cartoon AI to keep him company.
    - The Kiss was a cover to grab NYLoki's TemPad. Maybe Sylvie does feel a little something for him too but that was definitely the main reason.
    - I wouldn't worry about their character development being lost, we've already seen that Loki has the ability to restore variant memories (and share his/her own). That will no doubt happen early in S2 in order to get Moibius and B-15 back on side. The other possibility is that there are now multiple timelines (this Kang doesn't appear to care about that, see spoiler below), so the Mobius and B-15 we know might still be out there, in that TVA, and NYLoki simply has to get there.
    - Ravonna specifically states what she's after before leaving - she wants to go find "free will." Since she believes only the guy at the top possesses that free will, she's on a beeline straight for Kang, and I doubt she cares which one she finds. So we're headed straight for her aligning more with her comic counterpart. What's really cool here is that they found a way to give her eventual relationship with Kang a ton more depth than it had originally.
    - Of course time is a circle. He gets to the end, founds the TVA, they prune the branches so he can get to the end, found the TVA...


    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I agree with thatSeniorGuy.

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    I liked it, but with caveats. Took a long time to get to anything very important, which turned out to be more or less exactly what we've already been told since episode 1. As a reveal it worked fine, but I think it needed more 'oomph' to really sell it. Maybe have spent longer on obfuscating that the twist was that there was no twist in order to keep us guessing and keep the tension high for a while longer.

    All in all, it felt much more like a penultimate episode than a series finale. Getting introduced to Kang, hearing his history and plan, and ending on a cliff-hanger that there was a WORSE Kang now in charge, after an episode which was 90% talking, made me feel like now I wanted to see Loki fight Kang and resolve something. Resolve anything.

    Right now though we've gone 6 episodes and Kang is still secretly in charge (in that no one knows he is evil or whatever), the TVA is still standing, and Loki is still disguised as a low-level grunt with no authority or real agency. It feels like 6 episodes of prologue - an enjoyable one, don't get me wrong, and I hope it's clear that my position is that I want MORE of this great show - but the wrong place on which to end a series.
    Nah there were big changes:

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    - Unlike HWRKang, The new Kang (likely KTC but not explicitly stated) doesn't appear to care that there are many branching timelines now. This one appears to not mind war at all, which does support the idea that this one is the conqueror. This one is also not hiding behind enigmatic "Time Keepers", instead brazenly displaying himself standing alone in the TVA's statuary.
    - Since there are now multiple timelines, Loki's TVA could still be out there. Even if it isn't, Loki has the power to restore/share the memories of the variants he's landed with, so we'll eventually get Mobius and B-15 back one way or another.
    - Ravonna (loose with a tempad) now knows she's a variant and doesn't care, she believes in Kang's mission - possibly all of them. This is setting her up to be a solid deuteragonist down the road, or possibly even supplant Kang later on.
    - Loki has plenty of agency. He now knows almost everything about the TVA while they (or at least the one he landed in) know nothing about him. He might need to go get help, but that's just a tempad away.
    - Sylvie is still out there too - and now that free will has been reestablished, she's unlikely to just sit on her laurels and do nothing. She too has a tempad.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-07-14 at 11:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I agree with thatSeniorGuy.

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    I liked it, but with caveats. Took a long time to get to anything very important, which turned out to be more or less exactly what we've already been told since episode 1. As a reveal it worked fine, but I think it needed more 'oomph' to really sell it. Maybe have spent longer on obfuscating that the twist was that there was no twist in order to keep us guessing and keep the tension high for a while longer.

    All in all, it felt much more like a penultimate episode than a series finale. Getting introduced to Kang, hearing his history and plan, and ending on a cliff-hanger that there was a WORSE Kang now in charge, after an episode which was 90% talking, made me feel like now I wanted to see Loki fight Kang and resolve something. Resolve anything.

    Right now though we've gone 6 episodes and Kang is still secretly in charge (in that no one knows he is evil or whatever), the TVA is still standing, and Loki is still disguised as a low-level grunt with no authority or real agency. It feels like 6 episodes of prologue - an enjoyable one, don't get me wrong, and I hope it's clear that my position is that I want MORE of this great show - but the wrong place on which to end a series.
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    It was a six episode prequel to the next slate of movies. Kang was a poor choice for the man behind the curtain, although the performance was great, because Loki doesn't care about him. It lacks oomph because it lacks emotional content. It could have been anyone.

    Also for a series about the god of mischief, one of the greatest tricksters in Marvel's lineup, Loki basically never has a scheme, or even a plan most of the time. I've just watched the first season of Lupin and that's felt much more like a trickster mystery than Loki did past like episode 2.

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    Taking a minute for a spoilery victory lap here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Spoiler: Mobius
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    I suspect his first step will be locating and releasing B-15. No doubt Sylvie told him about her and that he'd have a powerful ally if she's freed. And given how easily she subdued Loki even outside the TVA, I suspect she'll be a badass fighter who will keep him from being pruned again.


    Spoiler: Ravonna
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    You're assuming that she has to have a pre-existing connection to Kang in order for Kang to be involved. What you're not considering is the possibility that she IS just a brainwashed variant, but having found that out, simply doesn't care. Maybe her life pre-TVA actually sucked, and she is embracing her new role as an enforcer. And furthermore, she's determined to find the Man Behind the Curtain - but is doing so in order to swear fealty.

    In other words, she can still end up roughly where she is in the comics - Kang's right hand - in spite of having been a dupe up until this point, rather than a willing accomplice, merely by becoming a willing accomplice now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Spoiler: Big Bad Goal
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    The BBEG could indeed be Selfish Loki, Kang, The One That Remains (i.e. alternate name for one of the other two) or something else entirely.

    My one issue with your theory is that if his main goal is for NYLoki to become TVALoki to become himself, why wait until he falls for Sylvie to prune him? All that accomplishes is allowing TVALoki to reach him. And if that's truly what he wanted, why put Alioth out front to block access? All he's done is guarantee that TVALoki will be nothing like him and thus break the cycle. So while I wouldn't mind this reveal, on paper it doesn't seem likely without a lot more details we haven't been shown yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Spoiler: B-15
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    Uh.... "alliance?" With the person who has you indefinitely locked up without trial? Were we watching the same episoode?

    And I'm not sure why Ravonna turning out to be okay with temporal oppression in spite of her origins opposes "optimism" for the series as a whole.
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Spoiler: Time Keepers and the Big Bad
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    My vote is still for It Was Kangatha All Along, but other fun ideas for the man behind the curtain include:

    Dr. Doom - Fake Robots on thrones all the way down is very his style, but despite the huge stakes here (summed up in the Arc Words: "For All Time - Always") this is a bit too low profile for such an iconic big bad. (Doom was Darth Vader before Darth Vader, he deserves a big screen debut!)

    Old Loki - This is looking less likely now since that looks like him in the stinger, but getting himself pruned by his own Time Police as a Xanatos Gambit to throw off suspicion would be pretty on-brand too.

    The One That Remains - IIRC this is the founder of the TVA in the comics, but this title is generic enough that it could be anyone more well-known as opposed to a random Snoke situation.
    Feels so good

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
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    It was a six episode prequel to the next slate of movies. Kang was a poor choice for the man behind the curtain, although the performance was great, because Loki doesn't care about him. It lacks oomph because it lacks emotional content. It could have been anyone.

    Also for a series about the god of mischief, one of the greatest tricksters in Marvel's lineup, Loki basically never has a scheme, or even a plan most of the time. I've just watched the first season of Lupin and that's felt much more like a trickster mystery than Loki did past like episode 2.
    Spoiler: Personal
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    Wait, why wouldn't Loki care about him? He is single-handedly the reason why Loki is never allowed to better himself or win. You don't get stakes more personal than that.

    The bigger question is why THAT Kang, the one who sees Loki as nothing but a backstabbing loser and footnote in the stories of others, was the one to find Alioth and subjugate the others. Is that a constant across Kangs, or specific to this one? He knew Sylvie would make it to the decision-point, is that why he had her pruned when she was? What does the new Kang think of them, or of Lokis in general?
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-07-14 at 01:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Spoiler: Personal
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    Wait, why wouldn't Loki care about him? He is single-handedly the reason why Loki is never allowed to better himself or win. You don't get stakes more personal than that.

    The bigger question is why THAT Kang, the one who sees Loki as nothing but a backstabbing loser and footnote in the stories of others, was the one to find Alioth and subjugate the others. Is that a constant across Kangs, or specific to this one? He knew Sylvie would make it to the decision-point, is that why he had her pruned when she was? What does the new Kang think of them, or of Lokis in general?
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    He clearly didn't. He had absolutely no personal motivation in the final episode at all, he was only on board with keeping him around because better the devil you know.

    And he had no personal connection to Kang, specifically. Kang as the answer to the "who is it really" mystery meant nothing to him. It could have been Steve from accounts, it could have been that random nobody that got pruned back in episode 1, and Loki's reaction would not have changed.

    And so, as identified, the reveal felt flat. Because there were no emotions on the line.
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-07-14 at 01:13 PM.

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    i mean hey, this ending was kind of a given right? Hard for Dr. Strange to have a Multiverse of Madness if there is no Multiverse, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
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    He clearly didn't. He had absolutely no personal motivation in the final episode at all, he was only on board with keeping him around because better the devil you know.

    And he had no personal connection to Kang, specifically. Kang as the answer to the "who is it really" mystery meant nothing to him. It could have been Steve from accounts, it could have been that random nobody that got pruned back in episode 1, and Loki's reaction would not have changed.

    And so, as identified, the reveal felt flat. Because there were no emotions on the line.
    Yeah, I'm beginning to think you and I don't experience media the same way at all.

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    "Anyone including Steve From Accounts could have oppressed Loki across time" is irrelevant, because this is the guy that did. Hence Sylvie being so angry and so willing to slit him up that she doesn't care about the cosmic consequences.

    NYLoki meanwhile hesitates - not because he doesn't also hate Kang, but because he has firsthand experience with what happens when you act impulsively and ignore the greater threat; it tends to kill your mom, or show up later even stronger and snap your neck followed by slaughtering your people, or something else even worse. In that sense, he is more Loki than she could ever be. And that is what the finale was about.

    They are both committed to universal free will and the ability to change oneself, but this Loki has learned prudence and restraint in doing so. His mission now is to find the third option, rather than the two Kang has proposed - and finding the third option has always been Loki's game.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
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    i mean hey, this ending was kind of a given right? Hard for Dr. Strange to have a Multiverse of Madness if there is no Multiverse, right?
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    There were the other dimensions that could have fit the bill (e.g the Mirror dimension and the dark dimension), but this show explicitly using the term Multiverse did mean there had to be some kind of kerfuffle in TVA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
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    i mean hey, this ending was kind of a given right? Hard for Dr. Strange to have a Multiverse of Madness if there is no Multiverse, right?
    Pretty much yeah.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Yeah.

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    We know at least half the batch of next movies, Ant-Man, Spider-Man, Doctor Strange (and if you listen to Moviebob, also Eternals and Venom, of all things) will be about the Multiverse, and we knew Kang was the next big villain that had been cast. The TVA had to implode and it had to be Kang behind it.
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    Thinking about the Baroque, Mannerism, and the Renaissance art periods and how we are not really telling a traditional story but instead telling one about art and how art measures society and sees our place in it.

    Renaissance the universe is understandable, it follows divine proportions, and those proportions exist in the universe but also in man. Aka Leonardo’s Vitruvian Man (1490)

    Mannerism (1530s and later, but we see some mannerism art style going back to 1500, and it is a gradual transition) is in conversation with Renaissance art but it is a different style.

    • Where High Renaissance art emphasizes proportion, balance, and ideal beauty, Mannerism exaggerates such qualities, often resulting in compositions that are asymmetrical or unnaturally elegant.[4] Notable for its artificial (as opposed to naturalistic) qualities,[5] this artistic style privileges compositional tension and instability rather than the balance and clarity of earlier Renaissance painting. Mannerism in literature and music is notable for its highly florid style and intellectual sophistication.[6]
    • The characteristics of Mannerism include hyper-idealization, distorted human forms; staged, awkward movement; exaggerated poses; crowded, unorganized compositions; nervous, erratic line; sour color palettes, and ambiguous space.


    While Renaissance practiced restraint, Mannerism (whose root means “style”) purposefully chooses to be dramatic. To introduce artifact and exaggeration to the picture or poetry.

    ————

    (What comes later after Mannerism is the Baroque when the Baroque starts is different in different locations but let’s say 1600 for Rome though it was already changing half a century earlier. Likewise France, Spain, Netherlands, etc did not start the Baroque until decades later.)

    Likewise the Baroque (irregular pearl) art movement is in Conversation with Mannerism. The baroque is “Bizarre and uselessly complicated”, complexity and detail done to excess that baffles the human mind. The Baroque / baroco is often associated with magic, complexity, confusion, and excess.

    We see the Baroque with Palace of Versailles, a Palace for the Sun King. Likewise we see the Baroque in all this specific religious art of a certain style. I will let the people reading this Google it themselves. Words will not capture what I am saying.

    Also the Baroque was an inherently political art movement, for if the world is not the center of the universe (heliocentrism), what then is the organizing principles when the Earth is one piece of space in a grand space beyond human imagination? We can no longer measure things with magic ratios tied to the human body like the Renaissance painters, sculptors, architects, and poets did. Now we are talking things like bureaucracies, armies, religions, nation-states, sun-kings etc to bring order to this grand universe that science now illuminates and people feel awe and fear at how small a human is in this grand world. Politics has always existed, but seeing the concept of what is sacred, what is “set apart”, is an aspect of human perception and human will changes our relationships with our neighbors and how we see them.

    ————

    What I am saying is

    Spoiler: What we started as
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    What we started as a story of a God, Loki, God of Mischief struggling with other titans of power.

    And now we are in a different form of conflict and Loki of New York feels so small, feels like there has to be something to cling too. This is no longer a story about a son of Odin, nor is it a story about Infinity Stones. What is glorious purpose in a universe that is so vast even gods feel lovecraftian / romantic despair.

    Likewise the Loki / Sylvie clings to her own self for it is personal, the things she measure are in the measurements of her own personal experiences. She does not feel the despair for she remains fixated on her goal and she will not take a moment to unfocus from it and view reality from such a larger point of view in which it is beyond any individual ability to see all the space at once. It is so vast that all things end, even societies, planets, individuals, culture, etc. How can one measure something at the end of time?

    Now it is societies and universes in the multiverse are some of the aspects the MCU is measured in.

    *shrug* it is what it is.
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    Spoiler: closing thoughts
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    Gunna admit, I'm going to miss the single-coherent-timeline thing we've had up until now. i was more then happy to accept Venom, Spiderverse, Xmen, and Deadpool as their own self-contained universes/multiverses outside the MCU, and i was all for the "What if?" series being nothing more then hypotheticals a la "The what if machine" in Futurama. but hey... guess we gotta tie them all together apparently.

    Hopefully it doesn't get to be too much of a clusterduck. if i recall correctly, this has screwed up the comics more then a few times.
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    Spoiler: crackpot theory
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    Moebius behaves like Owen Wilson acts in everything he's ever done because Owen Wilson exists in the sacres timeline and he is a variant of the ST Owen Wilson.
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    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Spoiler: Multiverse of Madness
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    Chiwetel Ejiofor showing up at the TVA, with Jonathan Majors in tow, “No More Kangs” !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Finale: Mind. Blown.
    Same here!
    Spoiler: Some thoughts...
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    The jump-scare of miss Minutes showing up in the sanctuary had me angry enough to grumble "damn it Twilight!" XD

    I agree with the sentiments of there being a lot of dead space in this episode. I think Kang (Dr. Kang? Kang-616? I dunno, I feel like he needs a differentiating name) just took too long to explain everything. I would have liked to see more time devoted to the Lokis reacting to the explanation and the TVA getting burned down by Mobius.

    That final scene with poor Loki and no one recognizing him. I guess the TVA isn't completely immune to time shenanigans. It does give off a bit of a downer that Mobius and B-15 got "reset" in a way. Huh, is that why our mobius didn't remember the water marks on Renslayer's table or ever apprehending a gator Loki? I guess if the timeline is circular then Kang's comment about reincarnation makes plenty of sense.

    Damn, I loved that focus on the statue at the end. Like one giant silent middle finger...

    So yeah. Definitely has faults, but I still enjoyed it. I'll be awaiting season two.



    Quote Originally Posted by thatSeniorGuy View Post
    Spoiler: E6: For all time. Always.
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    * He Who Remains/Kang - didn't quite jive with JM's performance, he felt a bit too erratic. Will be interesting to see how he portrays Kang, who presumably will be a lot more .. grounded.
    Spoiler: For all Time.
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    I assume this version of Kang is a good "variant" versus the evil conquering one will get to meet in the movies.




    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
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    - Unlike HWRKang, The new Kang (likely KTC but not explicitly stated) doesn't appear to care that there are many branching timelines now. This one appears to not mind war at all, which does support the idea that this one is the conqueror. This one is also not hiding behind enigmatic "Time Keepers", instead brazenly displaying himself standing alone in the TVA's statuary.
    Spoiler: Hmmm...
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    I think thing Kang was just tired of it all and wanted out of the job one way or another. But then again, if he reincarnates like he said he would, he's going to do it all over again. I assume he doesn't remember the previous cycle in this process. So Wibbly Wobbly...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Spoiler: Multiverse of Madness
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    Chiwetel Ejiofor showing up at the TVA, with Jonathan Majors in tow, “No More Kangs” !
    I mean, that's essentially what happened initially I'd say (minus CE).

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Spoiler: closing thoughts
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    Gunna admit, I'm going to miss the single-coherent-timeline thing we've had up until now. i was more then happy to accept Venom, Spiderverse, Xmen, and Deadpool as their own self-contained universes/multiverses outside the MCU, and i was all for the "What if?" series being nothing more then hypotheticals a la "The what if machine" in Futurama. but hey... guess we gotta tie them all together apparently.

    Hopefully it doesn't get to be too much of a clusterduck. if i recall correctly, this has screwed up the comics more then a few times.
    I don't see why you'd miss it though. From both a Watsonian and a Doylist perspective, it had to be this way, and should be this way.

    Spoiler: Time (Watsonian)
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    For time travel to work the way it does in Endgame/the MCU (i.e. characters changing the past creates a branch instead of changing the present they came from), there has to be a multiverse, or at least the potential for one. And if there is truly a "sacred timeline" while all those other branches keep getting pruned, that's just a roundabout way of saying there's no such thing as free will - not for any choice that matters anyway. There's just no way those two things can work in the setting as presented. And that means, the sacred timeline had to go.


    Spoiler: Time (Doylist)
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    You mentioned comics and Futurama; here's the thing about those. Getting characters together there is easy - you just draw them standing next to each other, and then you figure out a plot that would make that happen. And the comic book/animation audiences have been seeing this for decades, so it's an easy sell. If you need someone to act out of character to make that premise happen, you can just do it - maybe it's a variant, maybe it's a shapeshifted impostor, maybe they're possessed, whatever.

    For live action it's much harder - and consequently, it's much more rewarding. You've got to get the actors together, and you have a limited window to do so because they are aging in real time, they have other projects, personal lives etc. You've got to sell them on the premise/script to get them engaged so they bring their 'A' game on set. You've got to write it in such a way that you bring your mainstream audience on board, the majority of whom don't read comics, making them much newer to all the shenanigans I listed above.

    The reward for that is getting to watch your favorites play off each other on screen. Tom Holland and Tom Hardy. Andrew Garfield and Toby McGuire. Michael B. Jordan and Robert Downy Jr. Michael Rooker and Chadwick Boseman. The closest we've gotten to that so far has been Endgame itself, and ever since people have been craving more of it. Literally any kind of justification to make that a reality is worth it.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I mean, that's essentially what happened initially I'd say (minus CE).



    I don't see why you'd miss it though. From both a Watsonian and a Doylist perspective, it had to be this way, and should be this way.

    Spoiler: Time (Watsonian)
    Show
    For time travel to work the way it does in Endgame/the MCU (i.e. characters changing the past creates a branch instead of changing the present they came from), there has to be a multiverse, or at least the potential for one. And if there is truly a "sacred timeline" while all those other branches keep getting pruned, that's just a roundabout way of saying there's no such thing as free will - not for any choice that matters anyway. There's just no way those two things can work in the setting as presented. And that means, the sacred timeline had to go.


    Spoiler: Time (Doylist)
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    You mentioned comics and Futurama; here's the thing about those. Getting characters together there is easy - you just draw them standing next to each other, and then you figure out a plot that would make that happen. And the comic book/animation audiences have been seeing this for decades, so it's an easy sell. If you need someone to act out of character to make that premise happen, you can just do it - maybe it's a variant, maybe it's a shapeshifted impostor, maybe they're possessed, whatever.

    For live action it's much harder - and consequently, it's much more rewarding. You've got to get the actors together, and you have a limited window to do so because they are aging in real time, they have other projects, personal lives etc. You've got to sell them on the premise/script to get them engaged so they bring their 'A' game on set. You've got to write it in such a way that you bring your mainstream audience on board, the majority of whom don't read comics, making them much newer to all the shenanigans I listed above.

    The reward for that is getting to watch your favorites play off each other on screen. Tom Holland and Tom Hardy. Andrew Garfield and Toby McGuire. Michael B. Jordan and Robert Downy Jr. Michael Rooker and Chadwick Boseman. The closest we've gotten to that so far has been Endgame itself, and ever since people have been craving more of it. Literally any kind of justification to make that a reality is worth it.

    It's less any of that, and more that i just liked the simplicity of knowing what was what, who was who, and when was when.

    Before Loki (the series) the MCU consisted of: One iron-man, one Thor, one Hulk, one Steve Rogers, One Loki (the character) one battle for new york, one battle of Wacanda, one Wanda, one Vison (Not counting white vision or illusion vision) etc etc etc. There was only ever one of everyone and everything. the "Time Heist" shenanigans / branches ultimately didn't matter, as we had no reason to go back to those worlds once they were made, and the act of returning everything to it's proper time made any changes minimul at best.

    NOW though, with the multiverse / multiple-branching timelines thing, we have infinite of everyone and everything.

    Oh! You say you saw Ironman fight in New York? Was this Robert Downy Junior iron man? Animated iron man? Female iron man? iron man who smokes instead of drinks? Captain-falcon-iron-man? iron-spider-man? titanium-gold-alloy man? Pig iron man? Peter Parker iron man? Ultron iron man?

    And was this the Loki! battle of new york? the Giant-spiders! battle of new york? Were the invaders Scrull or Cree? Was Hulk there too? Which one? How many times did a building blow up? Is this the one where the empire state building exists, or never existed? Is this the new york in America, Canada, or Mars? or did you mean the battle of new-new-new-new-new-new-new-new york?

    And when you say "Spider man", do you mean Tom Holland spider man? Christopher Reeds spider man? Miles moralis spider man? Toby Maguire spider man? Leeam neeson spider man? Andrew Garfeild spider man? Babe pig-in-the-city spider man? The spiderman that is only twelve years old? Norman reetus spider man?

    It's just inviting so much confusion so quickly. Now instead of just keeping track of a large, shifting cast of characters and events, we'd ALSO need to keep track of all the alternates and variants that are undoubtedly going to get involved. plus this invites the whole escapade of "oh no! X character is dead! * Twenty minutes later * "Oh look! i found an alternate timeline version of X character who is NOT dead, and almost identical in every way except that in their timeline, it's all of US who are dead! So everything works out! hahahahahaha!"

    like don't get me wrong, i love the idea of Toby, Tom, and Andrew getting together as different spider-men in a future spider-man movie, but they're all in the unique position of having at least two movies under their belt as THE quintessential spider-man, the whole team-up movie is more fan-service for those who have been watching for the past two decades.

    The moment we get five different Thor's from different timelines standing together, all of whom I'm supposed to care about and be invested in, my head is going to spin. and i'd rather avoid that if possible.
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2021-07-14 at 07:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    It's just inviting so much confusion so quickly. Now instead of just keeping track of a large, shifting cast of characters and events, we'd ALSO need to keep track of all the alternates and variants that are undoubtedly going to get involved.
    I suspect part of the reason they’re doing this is so they can replace actors more easily.

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    SPOILERS Draconi, it hasn't been even a day yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    Same here!
    Spoiler: For all Time.
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    I assume this version of Kang is a good "variant" versus the evil conquering one will get to meet in the movies.
    Welllll....

    Spoiler: Morality
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    I wouldn't call HWRKang "good" by any stretch of the imagination. What the TVA was doing may not have been as destructive as a war, but they were still killing people (including children as we saw) en masse, and he himself was still pretty uncaring about the concept of free will.

    Funnily enough there IS a good Kang running around the comics - Iron Lad, i.e. teenage Kang who learns what he eventually becomes and decides to do... not that.


    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    Spoiler: Hmmm...
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    I think thing Kang was just tired of it all and wanted out of the job one way or another. But then again, if he reincarnates like he said he would, he's going to do it all over again. I assume he doesn't remember the previous cycle in this process. So Wibbly Wobbly...
    Spoiler: "Reincarnation"
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    I don't know that he meant he would be "reincarnated" in the literal sense of the term, i.e. coming back from being dead. Rather, he meant that it was his constant pruning of the timeline through his TVA keeping all those other Kangs from existing and/or seizing power. Without him to keep them in check, the events that cause them to come into existence happen, and one or more of them will eventually survive to find the others and start the conflict anew. Judging by the alternate or changed TVA Loki lands in at the end, at least one of them has gotten that far.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-07-14 at 08:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Replies in bold.
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    - Like Thanos - and many other good villains - Kang is supremely arrogant and believes he is ultimately the hero. His assumption is that only he can keep himself in check, but he's forgetting among other things that infinite Kangs (villains) means infinite heroes too.
    I wouldn't say he (HWR) believes himself to be the hero per say (he said himself that he's a villain), but he does definitely think he's acting for the greater good. And it will be very interesting if we run into any good versions of Kang.
    - HWR Kang is supposed to be a bit erratic, he's been by himself for... god knows how long with only his wacky cartoon AI to keep him company.
    Oh there absolutely a reason why he's looney, it's just that the performance was a little bit grating for me.
    - The Kiss was a cover to grab NYLoki's TemPad. Maybe Sylvie does feel a little something for him too but that was definitely the main reason.
    I missed that the kiss was a cover, but I'm pretty sure NYLoki didn't have a TemPad. Sylvie used HWR's TemPad.
    - I wouldn't worry about their character development being lost, we've already seen that Loki has the ability to restore variant memories (and share his/her own). That will no doubt happen early in S2 in order to get Moibius and B-15 back on side. The other possibility is that there are now multiple timelines (this Kang doesn't appear to care about that, see spoiler below), so the Mobius and B-15 we know might still be out there, in that TVA, and NYLoki simply has to get there.
    Oooh, good point on the retrieving memories part, I hadn't considered that.
    - Ravonna specifically states what she's after before leaving - she wants to go find "free will." Since she believes only the guy at the top possesses that free will, she's on a beeline straight for Kang, and I doubt she cares which one she finds. So we're headed straight for her aligning more with her comic counterpart. What's really cool here is that they found a way to give her eventual relationship with Kang a ton more depth than it had originally.
    I do agree that it was a great set-up to connect Ravonna with Kang!
    - Of course time is a circle. He gets to the end, founds the TVA, they prune the branches so he can get to the end, found the TVA...
    Excellent point!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Spoiler: crackpot theory
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    Moebius behaves like Owen Wilson acts in everything he's ever done because Owen Wilson exists in the sacres timeline and he is a variant of the ST Owen Wilson.
    Canon accepted!

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
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    [...]

    Also for a series about the god of mischief, one of the greatest tricksters in Marvel's lineup, Loki basically never has a scheme, or even a plan most of the time. I've just watched the first season of Lupin and that's felt much more like a trickster mystery than Loki did past like episode 2.
    Spoiler: Schemes
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    Yeah that's another problem with the series - NYLoki didn't really behave like a god of mischief, especially in the later episodes. No hidden schemes, no clever backstabbing or sudden reversal of power. Really he was just .. reacting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    She was about to say "--this new place that just opened up, Starshinia, which was founded by a red-headed aasimar, but was just taken over by an Azurite fallen paladin turned blackguard. Apropos of nothing, I hear they just invented a new spell called Halflings Don't Have To Breathe."

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    Quote Originally Posted by thatSeniorGuy View Post
    Replies in bold.
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    - Right right, he called everyone in that room "villains", but my point is that he still believes he's ultimately doing the right thing.
    - For a "Good Kang", see my plug for Iron Lad in the spoiler above. Especially given the idea that they'd probably want to make him black, Disney is going to be all over this idea.
    - Point about the TemPad, but still the kiss was meant to be a distraction. I'm personally glad she had an ulterior motive as that really downplays the weirdness of that moment.
    - The lack of clever schemes is exactly where Sylvie went off the rails. This was very much a bad guy where talking things out was the right answer, especially after they got to the end of his "script" - but she had had enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Spoiler: Replies
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    - Right right, he called everyone in that room "villains", but my point is that he still believes he's ultimately doing the right thing.
    - For a "Good Kang", see my plug for Iron Lad in the spoiler above. Especially given the idea that they'd probably want to make him black, Disney is going to be all over this idea.
    - Point about the TemPad, but still the kiss was meant to be a distraction. I'm personally glad she had an ulterior motive as that really downplays the weirdness of that moment.
    - The lack of clever schemes is exactly where Sylvie went off the rails. This was very much a bad guy where talking things out was the right answer, especially after they got to the end of his "script" - but she had had enough.
    Spoiler
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    - 100% agreed.
    - Yeah I was writing up my reply when you made your comment, thanks for that.
    - Agreed.
    - See, Sylvie's actions make sense, especially given that 1) she's been on the run since she was a girl so rightly had enough with HWR's interference and 2) due to the pruning attempt hadn't really had the chance to fully grow into the God of Mischief role (and even then she did an excellent job with her scheme to get into the TVA via the attack on the Sacred Timeline). But there was nothing from NYLoki, which is where my dissatisfaction comes from.
    Last edited by thatSeniorGuy; 2021-07-14 at 08:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    She was about to say "--this new place that just opened up, Starshinia, which was founded by a red-headed aasimar, but was just taken over by an Azurite fallen paladin turned blackguard. Apropos of nothing, I hear they just invented a new spell called Halflings Don't Have To Breathe."

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    Quote Originally Posted by thatSeniorGuy View Post
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    - 100% agreed.
    - Yeah I was writing up my reply when you made your comment, thanks for that.
    - Agreed.
    - See, Sylvie's actions make sense, especially given that 1) she's been on the run since she was a girl so rightly had enough with HWR's interference and 2) due to the pruning attempt hadn't really had the chance to fully grow into the God of Mischief role (and even then she did an excellent job with her scheme to get into the TVA via the attack on the Sacred Timeline). But there was nothing from NYLoki, which is where my dissatisfaction comes from.
    Spoiler: Sylvie
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    Oh I completely agree that her actions made perfect sense for her character - I'm just saying she was wrong. (It'll all turn out okay in the end of course, but that will be in spite of what she did rather than because of it.)

    As for NYLoki, he was blinded by his feelings for her, which he had never felt before at all. He can be forgiven for being a bit caught off-guard.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Spoiler: S1E6 - For All Time. Always.
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    Ha, I totally called it! The Nexus Event on Lamentis-1 was because they had to survive, not because they fell in love. That had made no sense to me at all; they were about to die anyway, so why would falling in love cause a nexus event? The only way that made any sense was they were supposed to live, according to the Sacred Timeline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Spoiler: Sylvie
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    Oh I completely agree that her actions made perfect sense for her character - I'm just saying she was wrong. (It'll all turn out okay in the end of course, but that will be in spite of what she did rather than because of it.)

    As for NYLoki, he was blinded by his feelings for her, which he had never felt before at all. He can be forgiven for being a bit caught off-guard.
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    Hard disagree that she was wrong. Perpetuating systemic genocide because the alternative is scary is not my idea of a good selling point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    People declaring in Marvel threads how little they care for Marvel shows and movies, while also being clear that they plan to continue watching them and join the next thread, is a neverending font of amusement for me
    Saying "this is mediocre but I'm invested" is not that unusual an opinion. Nor is it particularly high praise.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2021-07-14 at 11:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
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    Hard disagree that she was wrong. Perpetuating systemic genocide because the alternative is scary is not my idea of a good selling point.
    What exactly was the time pressure there though? There wasn't any.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Saying "this is mediocre but I'm invested" is not that unusual an opinion. Nor is it particularly high praise.
    I didn't say anything about praise, I said I was amused.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
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    Hard disagree that she was wrong. Perpetuating systemic genocide because the alternative is scary is not my idea of a good selling point.
    Spoiler
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    I'm not sure that the alternative was 'scary' so much as 'oblivion', at least if HWR could be trusted at all.


    Not a bad episode, although it really didn't feel like a finale of... much of anything, really. Marvel Studios really seem to be feeling their way a bit blindly through here, with careful tie-ins back into the 'main' movie properties that seem to be having a bit of mixed success. Be interesting to see how this pans out, and if it changes anything at the comics end of things; the comics tend to be violently allergic to permanent changes to the status quo, but using live actors in a highly successful movie franchise means that you're kind of forced to change things, since actors don't stop aging just because you've hit the point in the status quo where you want to stay. And now, with the movies being the financially dominant end of things (and with silly, spiteful changes happening in the comics already, like the attempt to push the Inhumans as replacement for the mutants, or the Fantastic Four being cancelled, or the ban on creating new mutants, and so forth), I'm hoping some positive changes come of this and Marvel comics finally break out of their... eesh, something like 30 year stagnation.

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    The finale is setting up more than just one movie. There is at least two that were announced that I am certain is set up from this, if not the whole next saga as a multiverse saga. (I would find it interesting if Deadpool 3 was based off of "Deadpool Kills Deadpool".)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    I'm hoping some positive changes come of this and Marvel comics finally break out of their... eesh, something like 30 year stagnation.
    I... don't think you have anything to worry about, in the comic world Marvel's been getting the most mainstream press of the big players. House of X, Okoye becoming Iron Fist, Death of Doctor Strange, Immortal Hulk - I've seen more Marvel comics news in passing than ever before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lizard Lord View Post
    The finale is setting up more than just one movie. There is at least two that were announced that I am certain is set up from this, if not the whole next saga as a multiverse saga. (I would find it interesting if Deadpool 3 was based off of "Deadpool Kills Deadpool".)
    TV too. In addition to the next season, it's a safe bet that What If will follow on pretty directly from the events here. And depending on how far they want to distance themselves from the Inhumans debacle, Ms. Marvel could end up tied in here as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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