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Thread: Loki (2021)

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    Spoiler: The document
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    Thinking about Kang's plan to have the Loki's in charge of the TVA, I assumed he didn't just leave the TVA to Renslayer because he knows she is going to leave, based on the document Miss Minutes gives her. So I asked myself, well if he knows that, why wouldn't he intervene? Ren was probably the most loyal agent who'd keep the TVA's mission on track. So I'm wondering if Miss Minutes or someone else is in the TVA pulling strings. I guess that's a season 2 mystery to wait for.


    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Spoiler: Morality
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    I wouldn't call HWRKang "good" by any stretch of the imagination. What the TVA was doing may not have been as destructive as a war, but they were still killing people (including children as we saw) en masse, and he himself was still pretty uncaring about the concept of free will.

    Funnily enough there IS a good Kang running around the comics - Iron Lad, i.e. teenage Kang who learns what he eventually becomes and decides to do... not that.


    Spoiler: "Reincarnation"
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    I don't know that he meant he would be "reincarnated" in the literal sense of the term, i.e. coming back from being dead. Rather, he meant that it was his constant pruning of the timeline through his TVA keeping all those other Kangs from existing and/or seizing power. Without him to keep them in check, the events that cause them to come into existence happen, and one or more of them will eventually survive to find the others and start the conflict anew. Judging by the alternate or changed TVA Loki lands in at the end, at least one of them has gotten that far.
    Spoiler: Morality
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    Well, good by his perspective. Or at least justified. The "lesser evil" Kang. The idea was just to differentiate him from the other Kang(s) in the discussion. :3

    Had not heard of Iron Lad tho.


    Spoiler: Reincarnation
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    Okay that makes pretty good sense to explain the loop.
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  2. - Top - End - #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Yeah, I'm beginning to think you and I don't experience media the same way at all.

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    "Anyone including Steve From Accounts could have oppressed Loki across time" is irrelevant, because this is the guy that did. Hence Sylvie being so angry and so willing to slit him up that she doesn't care about the cosmic consequences.

    NYLoki meanwhile hesitates - not because he doesn't also hate Kang, but because he has firsthand experience with what happens when you act impulsively and ignore the greater threat; it tends to kill your mom, or show up later even stronger and snap your neck followed by slaughtering your people, or something else even worse. In that sense, he is more Loki than she could ever be. And that is what the finale was about.

    They are both committed to universal free will and the ability to change oneself, but this Loki has learned prudence and restraint in doing so. His mission now is to find the third option, rather than the two Kang has proposed - and finding the third option has always been Loki's game.
    In this case, it's because I was already experiencing story collapse, which is the point where you stop following along with the writers and start thinking about the show as a show.

    A good quote to explain it is from JRR Tolkien:

    Inside [the story], what [the author] relates is “true”: it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside.
    And so here's where I come from with the mystery angle.

    The show was fairly clear about having an overarching mystery element (the fifth episode is even called Journey into Mystery, as a nice double reference to that nature and the comic Loki first appeared in), the audience were in on that from the beginning, the TVA claimed to be operating from some sort of greater good but were clearly ruthless, authoritarian, and not a little fashy in their uniforms (and were clearly revealed to be baddies when their body armour turned out to be useless, always a clear sign of disposable legions of evil), and at least from episode 4 for the characters.

    That mystery, of course, is "What is the TVA really about and who is really behind it?"

    And there are two levels on which a mystery in a show can resolve, it can resolve diagetically and provide catharsis to the characters in the story, and it can resolve adiagetically and only provide something to the viewer. The first is strong storytelling, the latter is weak storytelling.

    Diagetic resolution and catharsis is stronger because we can share it every time, we are in sympathy with the main character as they pursue the mystery and we are in sympathy with their catharsis when they resolve it even if we already knew the answer ourselves. Even if you know that Darth Vader is Luke's father, you can still see and have sympathy for the emotional catharsis when Luke finds out.

    Adiagetic resolution is weaker because once we know the answer, there isn't any catharsis to be be had in the characters finding the answer out. It's a trick that works once, and in cases like Loki's, which is a JJ Abrams style mystery, the only actual catharsis is "Hey, that is a marvel baddie who I have heard of, my nerd bones have been tickled!"

    It also, in this case, undermines the point of having the mystery at all. Because when the mystery is revealed the TVA turned out to be exactly what they said they were in the first place. They were doing exactly what they said they were doing, for exactly the reason they said they were doing it, and so the change from "the timekeepers" to "he who remains" being behind them is completely value neutral within this show. It changed nothing about our understanding of anything we'd seen up to that point, because the only thing that was different was the name, the motive and reasoning behind what was happening was exactly the same.

    The mystery box was empty, like they always are.
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2021-07-15 at 09:05 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #573
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    Just watched it, and wow, that was awful.

    It was so tedious I quit halfway through, and had to force myself to finish.



    Spoiler: Finale
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    Originally Posted by GloatingSwine
    It was a six episode prequel to the next slate of movies. Kang was a poor choice for the man behind the curtain, although the performance was great, because Loki doesn't care about him. It lacks oomph because it lacks emotional content. It could have been anyone.
    This perfectly sums up how I felt about it—in addition to my overwhelming disappointment.

    I don’t like goofball villains, and this guy really leaned into the goofball. Some people certainly enjoy that, but one of the reasons Loki made such an outstanding villain in the first Avengers is because he took himself seriously, and he forced you to take him seriously as well.

    This guy…apart from his complete lack of connection to Loki or anything else, is just impossible for me to take seriously, especially when he talked almost nonstop in a goofy tone at seriously excessive length. I like a good villain monologue, but, “eh, kill me if you like, I don’t really care” isn’t very menacing. And honestly, the first twenty minutes felt like they were stalling just to fill out the episode.

    The disappointment is all the sharper because I've thoroughly relished the series up to this final episode, and I thought I'd finally found one I could love through and through. But the blatant movie tie-in with a random neurotic guy falls completely flat for me.


    Spoiler: Coherent Timeline
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    Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir
    Gunna admit, I'm going to miss the single-coherent-timeline thing we've had up until now.
    Yeah, I’m with you here. Multiverse does not appeal.

    I just hope the Wakanda series manages to steer clear of all the multiverse shenanigans. No hint about a release date, but right now that’s what I’m most looking forward to from the MCU on Disney+.
    Last edited by Palanan; 2021-07-15 at 09:47 AM.

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    So, I really liked the finale of this. Again, absolutely nailing it on the exotic locales.

    Spoiler
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    Part of it might just be that I enjoy tropes like gambits, or adversaries meeting in a tense "peaceful" fashion.

    That said, I don't think Sylvie is at all wrong. The guy has lied so many times that he's inherently untrustworthy. Relying on his word...yeah, no. It's just not realistic at this point, and Miss Minutes trying to stall you indicates that you can do SOMETHING that is a danger to him.

    Stab the dude. It's the right choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    "You're not supposed to think/care about that" is not good storytelling, although a surprising amount of people don't seem to mind as long as there is enough spectacle to replace good storytelling. I suppose I can understand that to an extent.
    The mere existence of the Fast and Furious franchise is sound evidence in favor of this, I think.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2021-07-15 at 10:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    So, I really liked the finale of this. Again, absolutely nailing it on the exotic locales.
    Ah yes, the exotic scenery of Some Guy's Big Office, The Large Room with Nothing In It, and the crowd favorite Tiny Cramped Elevator. /joke

    Nah, the exterior shots did look pretty nice, though. For all the five seconds we got to see them, they were fun.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

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    Throughout that entire back-and-forth with Loki and Sylvie, I was thinking to myself - "He's going for the third option, doing what he does whenever he's not sure of what to do - listen to himself talk and stall for time." Maybe a half-formed idea while he's doing that - don't kill him or replace him. Intersect the timelines and let TVA Kang deal with the consequences. Give him the one-fingered salute while backing out the door - hopefully letting all their problems squash each other.
    Last edited by Telonius; 2021-07-15 at 10:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
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    Throughout that entire back-and-forth with Loki and Sylvie, I was thinking to myself - "He's going for the third option, doing what he does whenever he's not sure of what to do - listen to himself talk and stall for time." Maybe a half-formed idea while he's doing that - don't kill him or replace him. Intersect the timelines and let TVA Kang deal with the consequences. Give him the one-fingered salute while backing out the door - hopefully letting all their problems squash each other.
    This is absolutely what I got, through and through. And definitely how I relate to solving problems when playing tabletop as well, haha. When both options look bad, find the third path!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    This guy…apart from his complete lack of connection to Loki or anything else, is just impossible for me to take seriously, especially when he talked almost nonstop in a goofy tone at seriously excessive length. I like a good villain monologue, but, “eh, kill me if you like, I don’t really care” isn’t very menacing. And honestly, the first twenty minutes felt like they were stalling just to fill out the episode.

    The disappointment is all the sharper because I've thoroughly relished the series up to this final episode, and I thought I'd finally found one I could love through and through. But the blatant movie tie-in with a random neurotic guy falls completely flat for me.

    Well, what they could have done was say he was the one that gave Thanos the staff that mind controlled Loki. Sure, in this timeline he might have accepted the timeline, but he didn't directly do anything.
    See, this would have made him have a direct connection with Loki.
    Instead we get a guy who loosely has a connection.
    Spoiler
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    Also, this would have clue the audience that doesn't check internet that reference Word of God that the staff was actually controlling Loki's mind. He wasn't fully responsible for the deaths he caused in New York.
    Everyone even Kang tries to pin Loki like he chose to kill all those times, but the staff caused him to do it apparently. Sure, he had the potential, but he didn't have the desire till the staff.



    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
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    Throughout that entire back-and-forth with Loki and Sylvie, I was thinking to myself - "He's going for the third option, doing what he does whenever he's not sure of what to do - listen to himself talk and stall for time." Maybe a half-formed idea while he's doing that - don't kill him or replace him. Intersect the timelines and let TVA Kang deal with the consequences. Give him the one-fingered salute while backing out the door - hopefully letting all their problems squash each other.
    Spoiler
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    Technically we got a third option, or at least a off beat 1st option.
    Kang is killed but instead of her and him dealing with it together, Loki is lost in a new timeline multiverse.

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    I do appreciate that even after his heel-face turn, Loki remains oblivious to when people have knives aimed at his back, as opposed to all the times he aims them at others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    Spoiler: The document
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    Thinking about Kang's plan to have the Loki's in charge of the TVA, I assumed he didn't just leave the TVA to Renslayer because he knows she is going to leave, based on the document Miss Minutes gives her. So I asked myself, well if he knows that, why wouldn't he intervene? Ren was probably the most loyal agent who'd keep the TVA's mission on track. So I'm wondering if Miss Minutes or someone else is in the TVA pulling strings. I guess that's a season 2 mystery to wait for.
    Some possible explanations here:

    Spoiler
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    1) Kang's predictive "script" ran out this episode. He may have known Ravonna would come to a crossroads with regards to her role in the TVA, but not which way she would ultimately leap, so intervening (even if he wanted/cared to) might've been impossible even for him as he needed events at the End of Time to play out first.

    2) Despite her devotion to the TVA, Kang may have seen something that would indicate her running the show would be disastrous. Perhaps he knew that eventually, she would fall for one of his variants if she came across them, which would fly in the face of the TVA's primary goal - ruthlessly pruning every circumstance that could lead to one of his variants attaining power.

    3) He may have actually seen everything, up to and including her exit from the TVA. Like his guidance of the Lokis themselves, to Kang the journey matters as much as the destination, so there might be something she needs to learn by being the one to seek him out (or one of his variants) willingly rather than being led there by the nose.


    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    In this case, it's because I was already experiencing story collapse, which is the point where you stop following along with the writers and start thinking about the show as a show.

    *snip*

    It also, in this case, undermines the point of having the mystery at all. Because when the mystery is revealed the TVA turned out to be exactly what they said they were in the first place. They were doing exactly what they said they were doing, for exactly the reason they said they were doing it, and so the change from "the timekeepers" to "he who remains" being behind them is completely value neutral within this show. It changed nothing about our understanding of anything we'd seen up to that point, because the only thing that was different was the name, the motive and reasoning behind what was happening was exactly the same.

    The mystery box was empty, like they always are.
    Here's the reason I still think you're wrong. Even had we not known about

    Spoiler
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    Jonathan Majors being cast as Kang, and just saw an unrecognizable and wacky Oz/Wonka behind the curtain


    we would still have everything we need from this final episode to understand why this is Bad News, and the stakes and implications going forward.

    Spoiler
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    We get Kang's entire backstory delivered through masterful acting and visuals, without anyone saying his name once.Sure there are tons of clues scattered throughout the series that scream "Kang" for the eagle-eyed fans, but even had Kang never appeared in a comic before, you learn everything you need to know about him and why he's such a threat from this one episode - super-intelligent time traveler with multiple incarnations, with a level of science so advanced it might as well be magic at his fingertips. Even one of his more benign variants ended up essentially enslaving the entire timeline and forcing every Loki ever into a rigid script they couldn't deviate from. And through hardship and struggle, Loki fights his way across time to this man and learns "Sure you can kill me, but just be warned that others of me are even worse, and I was the only thing keeping them in check." - which calls right back to the video Loki gets upon arriving at the TVA in the first place.

    And from that backstory, we learn that there were never any omniscient "Time Keepers." He Who Remains is a vast and arrogant superintelligence, but he's still mortal (or at least born mortal) and thus fallible. That doesn't mean he's wrong about his variants being supremely scary - he sells that expertly and Loki, even with his finely honed bull**** detector, thoroughly believes him - but it does mean that his two proposed outcomes may not be the only ones even though he thinks they are. And that is why it matters that it is one scientist/wizard behind it all instead of extemporal godlike beings, because one guy can be much more easily wrong about Life, The Universe, and Everything. Much as Thanos himself was understandable and powerful, yet ultimately wrong.

    And quite honestly - like it or not, the MCU is a franchise that is designed from the ground up to draw upon decades of adaptation, that's part of its appeal. Could they write a compelling villain with absolutely no elements drawn from the comics, I don't doubt that they could, but there's absolutely no reason for them to need to when these kinds of continuity nods prove so fun for us to mull over.


    And ultimately - no matter how much flowery jargon you obfuscate your opinion with to try and present it as some objective truth, it's still just your opinion. You have of course every right to believe "series failed because I personally don't like the reveal", just like I have every right to disagree, so all we have to go by are the critical and commercial reception of the work more broadly, especially that coming from mainstream non-comic outlets. And those point to your opinion being in the minority, which I suspect Marvel are fine with since they can't please everyone and it would be a fool's errand to try. I certainly have no qualms dismissing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    So, I really liked the finale of this. Again, absolutely nailing it on the exotic locales.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Part of it might just be that I enjoy tropes like gambits, or adversaries meeting in a tense "peaceful" fashion.

    That said, I don't think Sylvie is at all wrong. The guy has lied so many times that he's inherently untrustworthy. Relying on his word...yeah, no. It's just not realistic at this point, and Miss Minutes trying to stall you indicates that you can do SOMETHING that is a danger to him.

    Stab the dude. It's the right choice.
    Here's why I think flying off the handle isn't the right call:

    Spoiler
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    There's no time pressure here, you're literally at the end of time. This guy isn't hustling you out of his office. It's not like the Matrix Architect or the Mass Effect Catalyst where you only have a few minutes to talk to the guy while people are dying before the window closes forever - again, it's the end of time, everyone else is already dead. And unlike Neo or Shepard, there's two of them talking to the Orchestrating Intelligence at the end. Maybe (definitely) they can't trust Kang, but they can trust and talk to each other.

    Had a ticking clock of some kind been established, I would be far less critical of Sylvie's actions, but there wasn't one. What she did was perfectly in line with her character, don't get me wrong, but it's still a fatal flaw in that character that she will have to address in Season 2. And NYLoki's inability to stop her was his.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Spoiler: Miss Minutes
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    I've been reading up on some behind the scenes stuff, and apparently there was at one point a pitch to have a fight sequence between Miss Minutes and the Loki's at the citadel.

    Well now I want to see this happening in season 2. At least with our NY Loki. :3

    Rather curious if Miss Minutes can fight. She can certainly scare!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Spoiler: Finale
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    I donÂ’t like goofball villains, and this guy really leaned into the goofball. Some people certainly enjoy that, but one of the reasons Loki made such an outstanding villain in the first Avengers is because he took himself seriously, and he forced you to take him seriously as well.

    This guy…apart from his complete lack of connection to Loki or anything else, is just impossible for me to take seriously, especially when he talked almost nonstop in a goofy tone at seriously excessive length. I like a good villain monologue, but, “eh, kill me if you like, I don’t really care” isn’t very menacing. And honestly, the first twenty minutes felt like they were stalling just to fill out the episode.

    The disappointment is all the sharper because I've thoroughly relished the series up to this final episode, and I thought I'd finally found one I could love through and through. But the blatant movie tie-in with a random neurotic guy falls completely flat for me.

    While I can understand all of your points, I enjoyed the whole exchange quite a bit:
    Spoiler
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    Kang here is no Endgame Thanos, or 1st half infinity war thanos, or teaser thanos' ... This Kang is Farmer Thanos. Farmer Thanos didn't fight back, he just gloated that nothing that happened now mattered. And like any interesting Time travel story, the events are happening out of order.

    Of course, while I always enjoy the extra bit of movie tie ins, I could see why a person could just be over and done with it. Also, having to build up Kang from nowhere is going to be a challenge however they do it, and I don't think they should do it identically to thanos... I guess it depends on the new Ant-Man, in how they introduce him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    we would still have everything we need from this final episode to understand why this is Bad News, and the stakes and implications going forward.
    Right, but it's actually no worse news than it was in the first half of episode 1 because it is in fact the exact same news.

    "Implications going forward" do not, in fact, make this show stronger. They make it a trailer for a bunch of other movies which will, ultimately, also stand alone without it because they will be made with the assumption that the audience didn't watch Loki.

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    And from that backstory, we learn that there were never any omniscient "Time Keepers." He Who Remains is a vast and arrogant superintelligence, but he's still mortal (or at least born mortal) and thus fallible. That doesn't mean he's wrong about his variants being supremely scary - he sells that expertly and Loki, even with his finely honed bull**** detector, thoroughly believes him - but it does mean that his two proposed outcomes may not be the only ones even though he thinks they are. And that is why it matters that it is one scientist/wizard behind it all instead of extemporal godlike beings, because one guy can be much more easily wrong about Life, The Universe, and Everything. Much as Thanos himself was understandable and powerful, yet ultimately wrong.
    Spoiler
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    Which again adds nothing of any value. There's literally no difference between "Kang is just one guy and can therefore be wrong" and "the Timekeepers are actually mortals and can be wrong". The MCU is already full of fallible godlike beings. Odin, the Supreme Intelligence, Dormammu....

    Loki's reaction to one Kang or three Timekeepers in this episode would have been exactly the same (blankly sitting and listening to exposition, mostly...)

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    Warning this may be too intense vibes for many people reading this.

    Spoiler: The Guy At The End Of Everything
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    The Guy At The End of Everything
    He Who Remains
    He Who Remains who played by Jonathan Majors who is playing Kang the Conqueror
    Kang the Conqueror who is Mr. Nathaniel Richards
    Mr. Richards ( I will let your imagination fill in why I am focusing on Richards )

    He created a system of "a food processer", a machine of mass murder.

    A machine which kidnapped* an innocent child.

    A machine where after you are prunned you are then sending children, adults, worlds, and universes not to another planet without technology to live in peace.
    But instead are sent to a "camp" , a camp where the people will be killed by a "gas monster" , let me repeat that imagery for everyone and think about it. They are removed from existence by a "gas monster" which kills everyone the gas touches.

    We are debating whether this cosmic order is justifiable? Is this system Jus-Ti-Fi-A-Ble? (5 syllables)

    Furthermore this cosmic order is not a localized place, no it is a totalized experience that inhabits all of time and space. This Fascist (the word Sylvie uses in Episode 3, the quote from Lamentis is "Loki: When did you get so paranoid? Sylvie: It must have started when I spent my entire life running from the omniscient fascists you work for.") is the Axis Mundi, the Cosmic Axis where this one man powers the system which kidnaps Children and Gases them instead of finding a different path such as sending them to a non-technology planet or a pocket universe where they can live in peace.

    You are justifying a totalizing system, a system that requires complete subservience to it.

    -----

    Are people thinking about the ramifications of what they are saying when they are trying to justify THIS *gestures* . We are literally talking about "Problem of Evil" in Theology about an Omniscient and All Powerful Being, and the Cosmic Axis character Mr. Richards, He Who Remains phrases it twice "That's the Gambit."

    Why would we trust such a person if we know him by his words, and his "Good Deeds" that included kidnapping children and not finding a better path?
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    @Ramza00 I'm not sure who you're speaking to; It's definitely not me as I'm not attempting to justify any of the Big Bad's actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Right, but it's actually no worse news than it was in the first half of episode 1 because it is in fact the exact same news.

    "Implications going forward" do not, in fact, make this show stronger. They make it a trailer for a bunch of other movies which will, ultimately, also stand alone without it because they will be made with the assumption that the audience didn't watch Loki.



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    Which again adds nothing of any value. There's literally no difference between "Kang is just one guy and can therefore be wrong" and "the Timekeepers are actually mortals and can be wrong". The MCU is already full of fallible godlike beings. Odin, the Supreme Intelligence, Dormammu....

    Loki's reaction to one Kang or three Timekeepers in this episode would have been exactly the same (blankly sitting and listening to exposition, mostly...)
    If you don't see the clear difference between "this character was an extremely powerful however fallible entity from the start" and "this character was a flawed mortal who stumbled into power and now has to decide how to use it" then I just don't understand how you can get anything out of Marvel at all, nor why you bother trying to begin with. That distinction underlies almost all of their flagship characters, and is arguably the entire point of their setting.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Here's why I think flying off the handle isn't the right call:

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    There's no time pressure here, you're literally at the end of time. This guy isn't hustling you out of his office. It's not like the Matrix Architect or the Mass Effect Catalyst where you only have a few minutes to talk to the guy while people are dying before the window closes forever - again, it's the end of time, everyone else is already dead. And unlike Neo or Shepard, there's two of them talking to the Orchestrating Intelligence at the end. Maybe (definitely) they can't trust Kang, but they can trust and talk to each other.

    Had a ticking clock of some kind been established, I would be far less critical of Sylvie's actions, but there wasn't one. What she did was perfectly in line with her character, don't get me wrong, but it's still a fatal flaw in that character that she will have to address in Season 2. And NYLoki's inability to stop her was his.
    Spoiler
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    They had already set in motion the destruction of the TVA. If they do nothing more, the timeline splinters and it's multiverse time. What they have is enough time to take what they've learned back to the TVA and take charge of the situation. If that's what they want. The important thing that happens in this confrontation is that HWR runs out of foreknowledge and free will enters the picture for the first time. Everything they'd done before, every scheme, every plan, every scrape, every setback and every triumph... That had all been part of the plan. The gambit is leveraging his knowledge of what got them here to convince them that he is right about what comes after he's gone.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
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    They had already set in motion the destruction of the TVA. If they do nothing more, the timeline splinters and it's multiverse time. What they have is enough time to take what they've learned back to the TVA and take charge of the situation. If that's what they want. The important thing that happens in this confrontation is that HWR runs out of foreknowledge and free will enters the picture for the first time. Everything they'd done before, every scheme, every plan, every scrape, every setback and every triumph... That had all been part of the plan. The gambit is leveraging his knowledge of what got them here to convince them that he is right about what comes after he's gone.
    Uh... yeah? I'm not seeing the disconnect between any of this and what I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Warning this may be too intense vibes for many people reading this.

    Spoiler: The Guy At The End Of Everything
    Show

    The Guy At The End of Everything
    He Who Remains
    He Who Remains who played by Jonathan Majors who is playing Kang the Conqueror
    Kang the Conqueror who is Mr. Nathaniel Richards
    Mr. Richards ( I will let your imagination fill in why I am focusing on Richards )

    He created a system of "a food processer", a machine of mass murder.

    A machine which kidnapped* an innocent child.

    A machine where after you are prunned you are then sending children, adults, worlds, and universes not to another planet without technology to live in peace.
    But instead are sent to a "camp" , a camp where the people will be killed by a "gas monster" , let me repeat that imagery for everyone and think about it. They are removed from existence by a "gas monster" which kills everyone the gas touches.

    We are debating whether this cosmic order is justifiable? Is this system Jus-Ti-Fi-A-Ble? (5 syllables)

    Furthermore this cosmic order is not a localized place, no it is a totalized experience that inhabits all of time and space. This Fascist (the word Sylvie uses in Episode 3, the quote from Lamentis is "Loki: When did you get so paranoid? Sylvie: It must have started when I spent my entire life running from the omniscient fascists you work for.") is the Axis Mundi, the Cosmic Axis where this one man powers the system which kidnaps Children and Gases them instead of finding a different path such as sending them to a non-technology planet or a pocket universe where they can live in peace.

    You are justifying a totalizing system, a system that requires complete subservience to it.

    -----

    Are people thinking about the ramifications of what they are saying when they are trying to justify THIS *gestures* . We are literally talking about "Problem of Evil" in Theology about an Omniscient and All Powerful Being, and the Cosmic Axis character Mr. Richards, He Who Remains phrases it twice "That's the Gambit."

    Why would we trust such a person if we know him by his words, and his "Good Deeds" that included kidnapping children and not finding a better path?
    Wow, that context makes He Who Remains worse than Hitler lol

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Wow, that context makes He Who Remains worse than Hitler lol
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    This is pretty much how Good!Kang sees himself
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Just caught up on the finale.

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    Huh. I had a theory that the TVA were trying to ensure Kang's creation, so I was...the opposite of right. Like, wrong, but inverted-style. Really liked not!Kang's appearance and character, and the statue reveal at the end was well done. I did not expect the twist of a variant Mobius, even though it was completely predictable in hindsight.

    Great music, great visual effects, and the fight scene was so well done. Much better than the throne room skirmish. I saw a lot of comparisons of Sylvie to Quill, but I don't they're similar at all--Sylvie had no reason to trust fake Kang, and she definitely had the moral upper hand of not wanting the genocidal bureaucracy to continue existing. Sure, the TVA might be "safer," but the multiversal war might also give the chance to end things on a better note. Freedom vs security, essentially.

    Didn't like or care for the Loki romance. Every scene with Loki mourning over Sylvie is just laughably sad because the connection is just so weird. It's the obligatory heteronormative underdeveloped romance that, for MCU, is more miss than hit, and adding onto the implication of "Loki comes out bi and immediately after that the only person he shows true serious feelings is a female version of himself he met hours ago" is sort of the step-forward, ten-steps-back that shouldn't be a problem in the first place. Maybe I'm expecting too much from Disney from the Owl House on this.

    Overall, much better show than Falcon & Winter Soldier, because TFAWS completely bombed its finale message in a way so facepalm-inducing that I could go on for a good deal of time without seeing "I'm so glad John Walker was able to become a good guy despite being an entitled murderer with zero hint of positive character development before while Flagsmashers are completely evil because they tried to stop what is essentially nationwide mass deportation." Okay, somewhat wrong forum for this, but anyways: I liked Loki alright. It and Wandavision were set up fairly decently, and I'm looking forward to Kang and season 2.


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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Warning this may be too intense vibes for many people reading this.

    Spoiler: The Guy At The End Of Everything
    Show

    The Guy At The End of Everything
    He Who Remains
    He Who Remains who played by Jonathan Majors who is playing Kang the Conqueror
    Kang the Conqueror who is Mr. Nathaniel Richards
    Mr. Richards ( I will let your imagination fill in why I am focusing on Richards )

    He created a system of "a food processer", a machine of mass murder.

    A machine which kidnapped* an innocent child.

    A machine where after you are prunned you are then sending children, adults, worlds, and universes not to another planet without technology to live in peace.
    But instead are sent to a "camp" , a camp where the people will be killed by a "gas monster" , let me repeat that imagery for everyone and think about it. They are removed from existence by a "gas monster" which kills everyone the gas touches.

    We are debating whether this cosmic order is justifiable? Is this system Jus-Ti-Fi-A-Ble? (5 syllables)

    Furthermore this cosmic order is not a localized place, no it is a totalized experience that inhabits all of time and space. This Fascist (the word Sylvie uses in Episode 3, the quote from Lamentis is "Loki: When did you get so paranoid? Sylvie: It must have started when I spent my entire life running from the omniscient fascists you work for.") is the Axis Mundi, the Cosmic Axis where this one man powers the system which kidnaps Children and Gases them instead of finding a different path such as sending them to a non-technology planet or a pocket universe where they can live in peace.

    You are justifying a totalizing system, a system that requires complete subservience to it.

    -----

    Are people thinking about the ramifications of what they are saying when they are trying to justify THIS *gestures* . We are literally talking about "Problem of Evil" in Theology about an Omniscient and All Powerful Being, and the Cosmic Axis character Mr. Richards, He Who Remains phrases it twice "That's the Gambit."

    Why would we trust such a person if we know him by his words, and his "Good Deeds" that included kidnapping children and not finding a better path?
    Spoiler: Oof
    Show
    And yet it's somehow even worse for Sylvie. Kang Who Remains didn't just kidnap her and kill everyone she knew, he kept doing it. Over and over and over. The only place she could connect with anyone was in an apocalypse, and as soon as she did anything that could save that person, the TVA turns up and murders them. And this wasn't even a faceless machine doing this, Kang Who Remains chose this path for her specifically and personally.

    To quote another Disney show, and understate it massively, she had a right to be upset.
    Last edited by Excession; 2021-07-15 at 11:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Just caught up on the finale.

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    Huh. I had a theory that the TVA were trying to ensure Kang's creation, so I was...the opposite of right. Like, wrong, but inverted-style. Really liked not!Kang's appearance and character, and the statue reveal at the end was well done. I did not expect the twist of a variant Mobius, even though it was completely predictable in hindsight.

    Great music, great visual effects, and the fight scene was so well done. Much better than the throne room skirmish. I saw a lot of comparisons of Sylvie to Quill, but I don't they're similar at all--Sylvie had no reason to trust fake Kang, and she definitely had the moral upper hand of not wanting the genocidal bureaucracy to continue existing. Sure, the TVA might be "safer," but the multiversal war might also give the chance to end things on a better note. Freedom vs security, essentially.

    Didn't like or care for the Loki romance. Every scene with Loki mourning over Sylvie is just laughably sad because the connection is just so weird. It's the obligatory heteronormative underdeveloped romance that, for MCU, is more miss than hit, and adding onto the implication of "Loki comes out bi and immediately after that the only person he shows true serious feelings is a female version of himself he met hours ago" is sort of the step-forward, ten-steps-back that shouldn't be a problem in the first place. Maybe I'm expecting too much from Disney from the Owl House on this.

    Overall, much better show than Falcon & Winter Soldier, because TFAWS completely bombed its finale message in a way so facepalm-inducing that I could go on for a good deal of time without seeing "I'm so glad John Walker was able to become a good guy despite being an entitled murderer with zero hint of positive character development before while Flagsmashers are completely evil because they tried to stop what is essentially nationwide mass deportation." Okay, somewhat wrong forum for this, but anyways: I liked Loki alright. It and Wandavision were set up fairly decently, and I'm looking forward to Kang and season 2.

    Uh, John Walker is very much not a "good guy." In fact, all signs point to a precipitous drop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excession View Post
    Spoiler: Oof
    Show
    And yet it's somehow even worse for Sylvie. Kang Who Remains didn't just kidnap her and kill everyone she knew, he kept doing it. Over and over and over. The only place she could connect with anyone was in an apocalypse, and as soon as she did anything that could save that person, the TVA turns up and murders them. And this wasn't even a faceless machine doing this, Kang Who Remains chose this path for her specifically and personally.

    To quote another Disney show, and understate it massively, she had a right to be upset.
    Exactly. The folks saying he wasn't a personal villain for Loki (and Sylvie especially) just don't make sense to me.

    That doesn't mean I think what she did was a good idea - but understandable, absolutely.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Uh, John Walker is very much not a "good guy." In fact, all signs point to a precipitous drop.
    Spoiler
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    I...agree? But the finale treated him like he had pulled a Heel-Face, so to speak. Him saving the Senators was framed as his "moment of redemption" and he becomes standard-Marvel-chummy with the heroes afterwards.

    Narratively, he is given the chance to "do better," and the individual Flagsmashers--even the ones that weren't on-board with Karli's plans--are not, and it's one of many factors that I felt like contributed to a troublesome at best finale, and one with unfortunate implications at worst.

    Last edited by understatement; 2021-07-16 at 12:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    He's at least as much of a good guy as anyone else in that show. The show opens up with Falcon murdering several choppers full of people as they try to run from him, then expects me to blame Walker for killing a terrorist right after he was helped murder his best friend? Nah. Make up your mind on what message you want to send. Is it ok to kill enemy combatants as they try to escape or not? Or is it only ok if you tell a quip like a sociopath before you murder them?

    The Flagsmashers lost all sympathy when they willingly murdered innocent people. It was actively insulting that the writers acted like they were sympathetic at all. If the lead Flagsmasher was a normal guy instead of a cute redheaded girl the entire show would have been 3 episodes long and no one would sympathize with them at all since Falcon would have killed them as soon as they blew up a building with innocent people. Or threatened his family.

    That whole show was a terribly written mess. The only thing it accomplished was to make me hate every single major character involved in it.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2021-07-16 at 12:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    The level of TV shows has increased a lot in recent years.
    This series is better than many of the Marvel movies.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    He's at least as much of a good guy as anyone else in that show. The show opens up with Falcon murdering several choppers full of people as they try to run from him,
    Yeah no. Batroc and the LAF were active combatants who hijacked a military plane, murdered the pilots, and were retreating over the Libyan border with their hostage to try and provoke an international incident. And Sam only ended up in those choppers because the terrorists kept moving their hostage into them. He was there to rescue a prisoner, not to get revenge; not even close to the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
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    I...agree? But the finale treated him like he had pulled a Heel-Face, so to speak. Him saving the Senators was framed as his "moment of redemption" and he becomes standard-Marvel-chummy with the heroes afterwards.

    Narratively, he is given the chance to "do better," and the individual Flagsmashers--even the ones that weren't on-board with Karli's plans--are not, and it's one of many factors that I felt like contributed to a troublesome at best finale, and one with unfortunate implications at worst.

    It's certainly possible his turn towards the light will stick. But given whose hands he ended up in at the end, it'll take more than simply wanting to do some good to keep him there.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Yeah no. Batroc and the LAF were active combatants who hijacked a military plane, murdered the pilots, and were retreating over the Libyan border with their hostage to try and provoke an international incident. And Sam only ended up in those choppers because the terrorists kept moving their hostage into them. He was there to rescue a prisoner, not to get revenge; not even close to the same thing.



    It's certainly possible his turn towards the light will stick. But given whose hands he ended up in at the end, it'll take more than simply wanting to do some good to keep him there.
    https://youtu.be/CAQ14bjGKIs

    Must be one of those newfangled invisible hostages.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    https://youtu.be/CAQ14bjGKIs

    Must be one of those newfangled invisible hostages.
    Seriously? Vasant (the hostage) is right there on the lead guy's back, 0:21 in your own clip. He's the whole reason Sam is there in the first place. Do you not watch the shows you post about?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Seriously? Vasant (the hostage) is right there on the lead guy's back, 0:21 in your own clip. He's the whole reason Sam is there in the first place. Do you not watch the shows you post about?
    Yeah, I don't see that at all even after rewatching it about 6 times after reading your comment. Maybe it's true, but it isn't clear to me at all. To be fair, I'm watching it on my phone at work, so not the best viewing experience.

    Even if it were true, I'm not sure why it's ok for Sam to gleefully murder tons of helpless people who are trying to run from him, but not ok for someone else to take out a terrorist that just held him down while someone murdered his squad mate. Walker should have arrested the guy instead of killing him, but Sam is every bit as much a murderer as him. Plus, if he'd stop thinking with his penis for 2 seconds the whole situation could have been avoided.

    Not to mention that he's responsible for every single person Zemos kills. I guess those murders are ok though since he did a quirky dance. The moral compass in that show is...not good.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2021-07-16 at 01:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Delicious Taffy View Post
    Ah yes, the exotic scenery of Some Guy's Big Office, The Large Room with Nothing In It, and the crowd favorite Tiny Cramped Elevator. /joke

    Nah, the exterior shots did look pretty nice, though. For all the five seconds we got to see them, they were fun.
    I have to say, I know you are being sarcastic, but Castle Limbo is one of the most visually interesting locations I have seen in a very long time.
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