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Thread: Loki (2021)

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    To be fair, I'm watching it on my phone at work, so not the best viewing experience.
    Without meaning to offend, when you either can't see or don't understand (or both?) basic elements of the scene you're arguing about, it makes any kind of discussion pretty frustrating to have.

    And no, the heavily armed terrorists who murdered air force servicemen so they could ransom a hostage off to his government from a foreign nation, and who are actively trying to murder the guy they send to retrieve said hostage, are not "helpless."
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    If you don't see the clear difference between "this character was an extremely powerful however fallible entity from the start" and "this character was a flawed mortal who stumbled into power and now has to decide how to use it" then I just don't understand how you can get anything out of Marvel at all, nor why you bother trying to begin with. That distinction underlies almost all of their flagship characters, and is arguably the entire point of their setting.
    It's absolutely crystal clear in Marvel that the source of your power doesn't matter, only what you do with it.

    Even within the limited subset of the MCU* we have characters who were born to power, those who sought power, and those who had it thrust on them and for all of them the important thing is them learning to live up to the responsibilities that come with that power. (Almost like there's a pithy phrase about that....)

    It's the core plot of Thor, of Dr. Strange, and of Spider-Man Homecoming. All of them are about a character with power who needs to learn to use it in the right way. All of them are characters who obtained their power in different ways for different reasons, but they all ultimately learn that the correct way to responsibly use power is not to use it for ones own edification.

    There is only a difference due to how one acquires power if the show specifically examines consequences of that difference. Loki does not. The MCU does not. Marvel as a wider property does not.


    * Because the big one here, of course, is the X-Men.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Without meaning to offend, when you either can't see or don't understand (or both?) basic elements of the scene you're arguing about, it makes any kind of discussion pretty frustrating to have.

    And no, the heavily armed terrorists who murdered air force servicemen so they could ransom a hostage off to his government from a foreign nation, and who are actively trying to murder the guy they send to retrieve said hostage, are not "helpless."
    They're about as helpless than the heavily armed super soldier who blew up a building of innocent people, and who just tried to murder Captain America, succeeded in murdering his buddy, and is still actively trying to escape and continue his terrorist activities. Which is to say I have absolutely zero sympathy for any of them. Why is it ok to kill one terrorist while they try to flee the scene but not another? Is it because he didn't do a witty line?

    It's perfectly reasonable for Sam to kill terrorists on a mission, but if he wants to turn around and wag his finger at someone else for doing basically the same thing then he's a hypocrite. Also the whole freeing a mass murdering terrorist from prison and leaving them with no oversight thing. Sam and Bucky should be behind bars for the rest of their lives, not arbiters of who or who shouldn't be Captain America.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Isn’t the terrorist actively surrendering when Walker kills him?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Androgeus View Post
    Isn’t the terrorist actively surrendering when Walker kills him?
    Eh, ambiguous. He had his hands raised but as a super soldier it’s not unreasonable to consider him armed as long as he can throw a punch. He didn’t actually say ‘I surrender’ (IIRC it was something along the lines of ‘please don’t kill me’) but if Walker had asked him to, would he have? Possibly. If the Flag-Smasher had had fifteen more seconds to get to his feet and escape, or fight back, would he have? Also possible. Neither of those things happened, so we can’t know for sure.

    I consider it a bad reaction on Walker’s part for the same reason I consider Luke Cage punching a hole in Claire’s wall to be a bad reaction on his. It’s not that what he did was horrible in and of itself, it’s that he lost control of his emotions and lashed out - this is concerning in ordinary people, but someone with super strength setting out to be a hero? The standard for that is higher, and so is the need for control.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Eh, ambiguous. He had his hands raised but as a super soldier it’s not unreasonable to consider him armed as long as he can throw a punch. He didn’t actually say ‘I surrender’ (IIRC it was something along the lines of ‘please don’t kill me’) but if Walker had asked him to, would he have? Possibly. If the Flag-Smasher had had fifteen more seconds to get to his feet and escape, or fight back, would he have? Also possible. Neither of those things happened, so we can’t know for sure.

    I consider it a bad reaction on Walker’s part for the same reason I consider Luke Cage punching a hole in Claire’s wall to be a bad reaction on his. It’s not that what he did was horrible in and of itself, it’s that he lost control of his emotions and lashed out - this is concerning in ordinary people, but someone with super strength setting out to be a hero? The standard for that is higher, and so is the need for control.
    We discussed it at the time.

    This isn't real life, it's a show. The man begging for his life is coded to be a surrendering combattant. And Captain America shouldnt kill or execute begging individual on the technicality that the guy didn't say "I surrender"

    When you are left justifying the morality of your action on a technicality, you don't deserve to be Captain America. It's that simple

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Why is it ok to kill one terrorist while they try to flee the scene but not another?
    Because.
    They have.
    A hostage.

    (Even if you refuse to see that hostage for some reason.)

    And are actively attempting to murder the guy trying to rescue that hostage.

    The Flagsmashers didn't do this, period.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    They're about as helpless than the heavily armed super soldier who blew up a building of innocent people, and who just tried to murder Captain America, succeeded in murdering his buddy, and is still actively trying to escape and continue his terrorist activities. Which is to say I have absolutely zero sympathy for any of them. Why is it ok to kill one terrorist while they try to flee the scene but not another? Is it because he didn't do a witty line?

    It's perfectly reasonable for Sam to kill terrorists on a mission, but if he wants to turn around and wag his finger at someone else for doing basically the same thing then he's a hypocrite. Also the whole freeing a mass murdering terrorist from prison and leaving them with no oversight thing. Sam and Bucky should be behind bars for the rest of their lives, not arbiters of who or who shouldn't be Captain America.
    Point of order: They did not free Zemo from prison. He did that all on his own. They didn't even aid him fleeing the country. They used Zemo's resources to jet around. They were supposed to be his oversight. He went back to prison willingly. Then he proved that being in prison didn't stop him from executing his plans.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Androgeus View Post
    Isn’t the terrorist actively surrendering when Walker kills him?
    He has not yet said it, but he is raising his hands, and clearly has no further ability to do harm. Militarily, it might be justifiable. Heroic? Certainly not. And that, of course, is the crux of Walker. He's a soldier, not a hero. So, I don't really have a problem with that scene.

    I do kind of have a problem with them suddenly switching to the opposite of that for Walker in the final episode with no real struggle, because that kind of undercuts what they're going for. Selling Walker as a soldier, not a hero, is a perfectly good reason for why he shouldn't be Cap, and the audience is pretty much on board with that, so it works. Trying to suddenly roll him back to being the hero, and having Sam ignore his allies and generally act unheroic in the final act just screws it all up, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I have to say, I know you are being sarcastic, but Castle Limbo is one of the most visually interesting locations I have seen in a very long time.
    I have to concede that the joke does hit home in that the setting isn't very important to the plot, it's mostly just an interesting locale to have conversations in, sure. That said, it helps when settings really sell the uniqueness of the environment. A lot of the motifs around the TVA, for instance, incorporate the hourglass into all of the decor. The broken gold lines scattering everywhere also seems...very thematic.

    There's been a ton of similar such settings that have been...forgettable. Nobody's going to remember another empty world with rocks or whatever, even if all the action is the same. I appreciate that they went the extra mile on the aesthetics.

    Honestly, if you took the exact same plot, and had a less charming lead, and skipped all the aesthetics, it'd probably go from a pretty great show to being mediocre at best. Hiddleston is fun to watch, and the aesthetics sell it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Here's why I think flying off the handle isn't the right call:

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    There's no time pressure here, you're literally at the end of time. This guy isn't hustling you out of his office. It's not like the Matrix Architect or the Mass Effect Catalyst where you only have a few minutes to talk to the guy while people are dying before the window closes forever - again, it's the end of time, everyone else is already dead. And unlike Neo or Shepard, there's two of them talking to the Orchestrating Intelligence at the end. Maybe (definitely) they can't trust Kang, but they can trust and talk to each other.

    Had a ticking clock of some kind been established, I would be far less critical of Sylvie's actions, but there wasn't one. What she did was perfectly in line with her character, don't get me wrong, but it's still a fatal flaw in that character that she will have to address in Season 2. And NYLoki's inability to stop her was his.
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    A flaw, well....yeah, they are ultimately Loki's. Trust is not their forte. And knowing that this is true of the person that you have to trust, well...that's a nasty prisoner's dilemma. Yeah, you can get a little bit more by cooperating, but whoever betrays first seriously changes the outcome overall.

    Given that the fate of the universe hangs in the balance, settling for not getting a few extra nuggets of information to avoid the worst case scenario is probably extremely reasonable. For either of them, given their perspectives.

    That said, I happen to see Sylvie as correct. The system is definitely immoral. The war is undoubtedly going to be bad, but it can't really be worse than all of reality forever lacking free will.


    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post

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    Didn't like or care for the Loki romance. Every scene with Loki mourning over Sylvie is just laughably sad because the connection is just so weird. It's the obligatory heteronormative underdeveloped romance that, for MCU, is more miss than hit, and adding onto the implication of "Loki comes out bi and immediately after that the only person he shows true serious feelings is a female version of himself he met hours ago" is sort of the step-forward, ten-steps-back that shouldn't be a problem in the first place. Maybe I'm expecting too much from Disney from the Owl House on this.
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    I actually like it, and think that in this case, it particularly fits. The only person that Loki, a character who perpetually struggles with selfishness and narcissism, can find true love with is....himself.

    And then he gets betrayed by it.

    That's....very Loki.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    He's at least as much of a good guy as anyone else in that show. The show opens up with Falcon murdering several choppers full of people as they try to run from him, then expects me to blame Walker for killing a terrorist right after he was helped murder his best friend? Nah. Make up your mind on what message you want to send. Is it ok to kill enemy combatants as they try to escape or not? Or is it only ok if you tell a quip like a sociopath before you murder them?

    The Flagsmashers lost all sympathy when they willingly murdered innocent people. It was actively insulting that the writers acted like they were sympathetic at all. If the lead Flagsmasher was a normal guy instead of a cute redheaded girl the entire show would have been 3 episodes long and no one would sympathize with them at all since Falcon would have killed them as soon as they blew up a building with innocent people. Or threatened his family.

    That whole show was a terribly written mess. The only thing it accomplished was to make me hate every single major character involved in it.
    What I love is that John Walker's killer move is same move Cap uses in the current Avengers video game all the time. Normalizing it.

    And true, Flagsmashers were handed kid gloves by Falcon because she was a girl.

    You would think as a therapist dealing with PTSD members, he would be better with Walker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
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    A flaw, well....yeah, they are ultimately Loki's. Trust is not their forte. And knowing that this is true of the person that you have to trust, well...that's a nasty prisoner's dilemma. Yeah, you can get a little bit more by cooperating, but whoever betrays first seriously changes the outcome overall.

    Given that the fate of the universe hangs in the balance, settling for not getting a few extra nuggets of information to avoid the worst case scenario is probably extremely reasonable. For either of them, given their perspectives.

    That said, I happen to see Sylvie as correct. The system is definitely immoral. The war is undoubtedly going to be bad, but it can't really be worse than all of reality forever lacking free will.
    Oh definitely agreed, but I don't think those are the only two options. The fact that HWR does think that, is the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    You would think as a therapist dealing with PTSD members, he would be better with Walker.
    1) He's a counselor, not a therapist. BIG difference.
    2) He's never counseled a veteran who took a mind-altering serum before. Erskine very clearly explains how it works in FA.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    You would think as a therapist dealing with PTSD members, he would be better with Walker.
    You saw how Sam and bucky were reacting to Bucky's therapist, and that was something bucky was required to attend.

    Walker wasnt ordered to listen to sam, wasnt willingly seeing a therapist for a problem, didnt see what he did as a problem at all. He was made a soldier, and the serem made him more of what he already was.

    All he saw was people who had taken every opportunity up to this point to undermine him for not being Steve, using this as an opportunity to take the shield away from him.

    He was never going to listen to Sam, no matter what Sam's training was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    Point of order: They did not free Zemo from prison. He did that all on his own. They didn't even aid him fleeing the country. They used Zemo's resources to jet around. They were supposed to be his oversight. He went back to prison willingly. Then he proved that being in prison didn't stop him from executing his plans.
    Except he totally murdered at least one guy in cold blood while Falcon and Bucky just watched and didn't do anything.

    And sure, being in prison is less of a detriment when you're allowed by the "heroes" to roam free whenever you want to set things up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    We discussed it at the time.

    This isn't real life, it's a show. The man begging for his life is coded to be a surrendering combattant. And Captain America shouldnt kill or execute begging individual on the technicality that the guy didn't say "I surrender"

    When you are left justifying the morality of your action on a technicality, you don't deserve to be Captain America. It's that simple
    I see. Now, the other guy who colluded with multiple terrorists, is at least culpable in the deaths of several innocent people, and jumped an American soldier in a back alley, broke his arm, and stole government property? THAT'S apparently the morally unambiguous bastion of righteousness you consider a true hero?
    Last edited by Anteros; 2021-07-16 at 07:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    Point of order: They did not free Zemo from prison.
    I thought Bucky did help with that? Leaving a vague threatening note to start a fight?

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Except he totally murdered at least one guy in cold blood while Falcon and Bucky just watched and didn't do anything.

    And sure, being in prison is less of a detriment when you're allowed by the "heroes" to roam free whenever you want to set things up.




    I see. Now, the other guy who colluded with multiple terrorists, is at least culpable in the deaths of several innocent people, and jumped an American soldier in a back alley, broke his arm, and stole government property? THAT'S apparently the morally unambiguous bastion of righteousness you consider a true hero?
    Apparently, social media (phones/pictures recording you) is what separates hero from villian, I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Apparently, social media (phones/pictures recording you) is what separates hero from villian, I guess.
    An easy conclusion to come to when one's eyes don't work on hostages and other extenuating circumstances, sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Apparently, social media (phones/pictures recording you) is what separates hero from villian, I guess.
    That does seem to be the biggest lesson.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    That does seem to be the biggest lesson.
    I don't usually reply in these media discussion threads because they're a hot bed for this kind of thing, but I feel like Psyren needs some backup. {scrubbed}. Falcon was on a sanctioned military mission and was trying to save a *military hostage*. New cap chased down a fleeing person after *He and his partner attacked them and they defended themselves* and then beat one to death while they weren't even attempting to fight back. {scrubbed}. Falcon's obviously done some bad things, he was literally in jail at one point. But he is not John Walker. He has not made the same calls. That's *the point of the show.*
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-07-17 at 02:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemenia View Post
    New cap chased down a fleeing person after *He and his partner attacked them and they defended themselves* and then beat one to death while they weren't even attempting to fight back.
    …I may be misremembering things but wasn’t the Flag Smashers’ goal to kill Walker during that fight? And this was after Karli blew up a supply depot with people inside just to send a message? So, not exactly unprovoked at that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    …I may be misremembering things but wasn’t the Flag Smashers’ goal to kill Walker during that fight? And this was after Karli blew up a supply depot with people inside just to send a message? So, not exactly unprovoked at that point.
    Look, if you want to draw the equivalent go ahead. But there's no way I will in any way equivalente Walker and Wilson's actions.

    Wilson respected the rules of engagement and was acutely aware of what was required of you when you declared yourself to be Captain America.

    Walker was a thug and bully with a nice smile who loved to swing his authority around and ended up collapsing under pressure.

    Walker is everything General Chester Philips wanted out of the Super Soldier serum program during world war 2. And the entire first act of The First Avenger was to demonstrate why what Philips wanted was a bad thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Look, if you want to draw the equivalent go ahead. But there's no way I will in any way equivalente Walker and Wilson's actions.
    Point me to where I said I was doing that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Point me to where I said I was doing that.
    {scrubbed}

    People here have compared Wilson's actions and Walker's and tried to make the argument that Wilson isn't better than Walker. That's all that matters.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-07-17 at 02:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Walker being a violent thug and the flagsmashers being terrorists can both be true. In my view Walker was justified in using force to catch them up until he had the one guy on the ground pleading for his life.

    And of course Wilson is different. Sam tries to deescalate even when violence might have been a reasonable option. He doesn't deescalate during the opening scene because there wasn't really a chance to; he might have played it differently if those guys had tried to negotiate instead of shooting him.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)


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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Count yourself lucky. The Variant Thread has been arguing about The Last Jedi for the past 10 pages.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    someone call the TVA. i think this thread itself is a variant. we've gone off the sacred timeline. this thread must be purged.
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2021-07-17 at 04:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Count yourself lucky. The Variant Thread has been arguing about The Last Jedi for the past 10 pages.
    ...there isn't a 'laugh out loud' emoji on this forum and right now that seems like a huge omission.

    In the interest of getting back on track, I will submit the opinion that the reveal does go a bit farther in explaining some of the shenanigans that otherwise flew in the face of the rules of time travel as they were given to us.

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    'My heir is about to die and isn't supposed to' IS a pretty big variation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    .In the interest of getting back on track, I will submit the opinion that the reveal does go a bit farther in explaining some of the shenanigans that otherwise flew in the face of the rules of time travel as they were given to us.

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    'My heir is about to die and isn't supposed to' IS a pretty big variation.
    Yeah, that's what I meant by this:

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
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    Ha, I totally called it! The Nexus Event on Lamentis-1 was because they had to survive, not because they fell in love. That had made no sense to me at all; they were about to die anyway, so why would falling in love cause a nexus event? The only way that made any sense was they were supposed to live, according to the Sacred Timeline.
    Further...

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    This also explains why Sylvie was pruned. It had nothing to do with her being a woman, or anything she did, but because it was necessary to manipulate her to that exact point in time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    Yeah, that's what I meant by this:
    Whoops, must have missed that, sorry.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    Sorry to take the thread off topic, but I want to talk about Loki for a bit. I just finished the last episode

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    my new head canon here is that the *only*thing that matters in the timeline is that we get a version of he who remains that is happy to have peace across timelines. So you can actually have many different timelines, with all sorts of random nonsense happening, as long as he thinks he can still control the timeline into producing a good version of himself. From this perspective, even inside the constraints of the job he gave himself, there are various levels of evil. He could aggressively prune and be safe about it, or his pruning could be more targeted, with a little more risk or work required to make sure the end result is acceptable.

    This could explain how alligator Loki came to be.

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