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Thread: Loki (2021)

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    ... I was really dissapointed when He Who Remains gave them the script. I predicted it even. Mostly becaue I was having Homestuck flashbacks.

    But this show has been mostly about the ride, with many character moments and a few clever ideas. Makes it hard to guess what will happen next season.

    Spoiler: idk spoiler rules I'll follow evryones lead
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    The biggest change I can count on, is the first season NYLoki was at a disatvantage, in a place he didn't fully understand, where his existance was precarious as a known variant. Now, he knows more about these recently reset (or alternate or whatever) TVA than they know about themselves. And he's on the inside.

    I assume the TVA is newly reset. They haven't met Loki variants yet. I suppose another possiblity is Sylvie is taking every Loki variant for herself. Or He Who Remains was causing more Loki variants to find the exact flavor Lokis he wanted.


    So, I guess the ending didn't really make me excited about what I had seen, but did make me curious about what's next. Also, nice place looked like cracked pottery put together with gold.
    yo

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    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    Walker being a violent thug and the flagsmashers being terrorists can both be true. In my view Walker was justified in using force to catch them up until he had the one guy on the ground pleading for his life.

    And of course Wilson is different. Sam tries to deescalate even when violence might have been a reasonable option. He doesn't deescalate during the opening scene because there wasn't really a chance to; he might have played it differently if those guys had tried to negotiate instead of shooting him.
    Yep.

    {scrubbed}

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    someone call the TVA. i think this thread itself is a variant. we've gone off the sacred timeline. this thread must be purged.
    I'm not the one who brought up FATWS in this thread that was Understatement iiirc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spriteless View Post
    ... I was really dissapointed when . I predicted it even. Mostly becaue I was having Homestuck flashbacks.
    The real question is, who gave it to him?
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-07-18 at 08:01 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    someone call the TVA. i think this thread itself is a variant. we've gone off the sacred timeline. this thread must be purged.
    The only movies and thus threads that get made are the ones the TVA allows. Thus the TVA permits the dog fashion movie called Cruella
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    The only movies and thus threads that get made are the ones the TVA allows. Thus the TVA permits the dog fashion movie called Cruella
    Sometimes a pile of dirt must be shown so that the true gems can really shine in comparison. *Sagenod*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemenia View Post
    New cap chased down a fleeing person after *He and his partner attacked them and they defended themselves*
    Actually he chased down a terrorist and murderer that any law enforcement person would be supposed to apprehend on sight. You are seriously holding it against New Cap that he chose to attack a group of gathered terrorist?

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    Quote Originally Posted by M1982 View Post
    Actually he chased down a terrorist and murderer that any law enforcement person would be supposed to apprehend on sight. You are seriously holding it against New Cap that he chose to attack a group of gathered terrorist?
    Walker isn't law enforcement.
    Walker is a soldier. He was trained to kill, seize land and obey order without question. And he excelled at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Walker isn't law enforcement.
    Walker is a soldier. He was trained to kill, seize land and obey order without question. And he excelled at that.
    And that makes him different from law enforment how? :p

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
    And that makes him different from law enforment how? :p
    I know you are writing with a sarcastic font, but that's the point of the story.

    You are right, law enforcement officers should act different than soldiers. And the show runners clearly had some opinion about that, and that's all we'll say on the topic.

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    Default Re: Loki (2021)

    A bit random, but is anyone else drawing parallels between Loki and the FF7 remake?

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    Both involve the protagonists rebelling against Fate, and in the end winning, but with the implication that maybe that wasn't necessarily a good thing. The TVA are like the Whispers, trying to make sure things play out the exact way they are supposed to.

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    Originally Posted by JadedDM
    A bit random, but is anyone else drawing parallels between Loki and the FF7 remake?
    It hadnít occurred to me, but Iím so happy to see a Loki post in the Loki thread that Iíll just go with it.

    Last edited by Palanan; 2021-07-18 at 06:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    A bit random, but is anyone else drawing parallels between Loki and the FF7 remake?
    Takes your Segue to do another.

    Spoiler: The TVA The Final Frontier
    Show


    What would we as the audience would have felt if it was Q at the end of Time?

    What would we felt about Q creating the TVA and thus vicariously doing all the horrible things the TVA is doing?

    Would we then support Sylvie stabbing He Who Remains?

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    Originally Posted by Ramza00
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    What would we as the audienceÖhave felt if it was Q at the end of Time?
    Spoiler
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    Originally Posted by Ramza00
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    Would we then support Sylvie stabbing He Who Remains?
    Spoiler
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    So, so much.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    It hadnít occurred to me, but Iím so happy to see a Loki post in the Loki thread that Iíll just go with it.

    I feel there is too much Loki in a Loki threat
    Spoiler
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    So, do you think Loki-croc is okay at end? We didn't see anything happen to him but I might have missed it.
    Also, I worry about Frog-Thor.

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    Disney's silence on Cruella's numbers after they were so quick to trumpet those of Black Widow is a bit deafening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Takes your Segue to do another.

    Spoiler: The TVA The Final Frontier
    Show


    What would we as the audience would have felt if it was Q at the end of Time?

    What would we felt about Q creating the TVA and thus vicariously doing all the horrible things the TVA is doing?

    Would we then support Sylvie stabbing He Who Remains?
    That would depend entirely on the consequences for doing so, as well as the consequences/time pressure for inaction. The latter didn't appear to have any that I could see.

    I will say that I much prefer
    Spoiler
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    an up-jumped mortal to any kind of godlike being waiting behind that door. I'm also very interested in the potential Richards connection being set up here that we wouldn't have gotten with the traditional HWR or Timekeepers.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    It hadnít occurred to me, but Iím so happy to see a Loki post in the Loki thread that Iíll just go with it.

    In deference to your hopes of actual Loki discussion in the Loki thread I will pass on this otherwise great opportunity to talk **** about FF7 Remake
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    I do wish Loki's point to Sylvie had been, "Killing him is *obviously* what he wants us to do, and we need to figure out why."

    Honestly, though, I had a great time with it. I think if we'd all gone into it knowing that they'd written the season to end on a set-up cliffhanger rather than a resolution, it would be getting less blowback than it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Disney's silence on Cruella's numbers after they were so quick to trumpet those of Black Widow is a bit deafening.
    They already greenlit a sequel, but hey do not let new data you are unfamiliar with ruin the narrative

    The TVA approves of Cruella the Sequel!
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-07-19 at 12:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    I feel there is too much Loki in a Loki threat
    Spoiler
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    So, do you think Loki-croc is okay at end? We didn't see anything happen to him but I might have missed it.
    Also, I worry about Frog-Thor.
    Spoiler: fate of croki-loki?
    Show
    I figure, either absolutely everything go reset, and the Lokis will be pruned anew, or Kid Loki and Croci-Loki are still the Lokis most able to work together long-term.
    yo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    I do wish Loki's point to Sylvie had been, "Killing him is *obviously* what he wants us to do, and we need to figure out why."

    Honestly, though, I had a great time with it. I think if we'd all gone into it knowing that they'd written the season to end on a set-up cliffhanger rather than a resolution, it would be getting less blowback than it is.
    That may be a difference in expectations. I knew they were having another season, and the upcoming movie titles hint very strongly at a Multiverse existing. I figured there would be some sort of outcome that left Loki alive in case they opted to use him, but that resulted in a Multiverse unfolding.

    The TVA's sacred timeline was never going to be preserved, and I assumed that from episode one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    The TVA's sacred timeline was never going to be preserved, and I assumed that from episode one.
    This very much seemed a given, it was just the specifics on how and why it happened that was uncertain.

    Overall quite enjoyed the showed and looking forward to season 2 and the multiverse related movies. They seem to be leaning into existential/eldritch horror rather hard with this series, and hopeful that Dr. Strange 2 will continue that trend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    They already greenlit a sequel, but hey do not let new data you are unfamiliar with ruin the narrative
    Oh don't worry, I'll skip that too

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    I do wish Loki's point to Sylvie had been, "Killing him is *obviously* what he wants us to do, and we need to figure out why."
    Pretty sure
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    he wanted to recruit them. He certainly didn't MIND having his Watch very forcibly Ended, but that was always plan B if not C or D.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Pretty sure
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    he wanted to recruit them. He certainly didn't MIND having his Watch very forcibly Ended, but that was always plan B if not C or D.
    I'm not saying that I think he *was* trying to trick them into killing him. But while I think HWR was masterfully acted, I don't think it was a very good pitch for getting either Loki on board, and I would have bought Loki thinking there's a con game going on that Sylvie is falling for more than I did him buying into the necessity of the TVA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    I'm not saying that I think he *was* trying to trick them into killing him. But while I think HWR was masterfully acted, I don't think it was a very good pitch for getting either Loki on board, and I would have bought Loki thinking there's a con game going on that Sylvie is falling for more than I did him buying into the necessity of the TVA.
    I don't think he "bought into the necessity of the TVA" either. His exact words were:

    Spoiler
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    L: "What if he's telling the truth?"
    S: "So what?"
    L: "I believe him."
    S: "Believe what? That a bazillion boogeymen are going to turn up just because we give people free will? He's a liar, Loki!"
    L: "So am I. And I don't think he was lying. Not about that. Insane? Yes. But maybe he was telling the truth."
    S: "So what are you suggesting?"
    L: "I'm suggesting we think about it."
    S: "And what PRECISELY is there to think about?"
    L: "Weren't you listening to what he was saying? That's the gambit. Remove the dictator and what fills the void?"
    S: "Ah. You want the throne."
    L: "No. That's not it, no."
    S: "I don't believe you."
    L: "Sylvie... the universe is in the balance. Everything we know to be true, everything. I know the TVA has hurt us both... but what if, by taking him out, we risk unleashing something even worse? All I'm saying is that we just take a minute to think about it."
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    What a lovely end to a wonderful first series. Loki season 1 is hands down top tier MCU material, and I'm so happy to see it setting a trend for the space-magic side of MCU. The spy-soldier side is not bad by a long shot, but Loki really made the MCU great exciting again.

    As an admitted Loki-Sylvie romance supporter I loved the dynamic of these two, and the place where they both ended is full of potential. Sylvie is very much On A (Revenge) Mission, and in typical narcissist fashion the self-centered righteous tunnel vision let her down a dark path that she might come to regret. Our Loki, post NYC invasion and having caught up with what his revenge path ends up bringing, is one step ahead of her and sees things from a different perspective.
    "Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"

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    Originally Posted by Clertar
    Loki season 1 is hands down top tier MCU materialÖ.
    I would say Loki is by far the best of the three MCU series weíve had so far, and up until the finale I was thoroughly enjoying the ride.

    I was disappointed enough that Iím not especially longing to get to Season TwoÖand yet, tomorrow morning has a certain empty feel.

    Originally Posted Clertar
    As an admitted Loki-Sylvie romance supporter I loved the dynamic of these two, and the place where they both ended is full of potential.
    Very much agreed. The chemistry between them really made the show. Loki may be narcissistic and needy, but at least he can recognize real quality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I don't think he "bought into the necessity of the TVA" either. His exact words were:

    Spoiler
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    L: "What if he's telling the truth?"
    S: "So what?"
    L: "I believe him."
    S: "Believe what? That a bazillion boogeymen are going to turn up just because we give people free will? He's a liar, Loki!"
    L: "So am I. And I don't think he was lying. Not about that. Insane? Yes. But maybe he was telling the truth."
    S: "So what are you suggesting?"
    L: "I'm suggesting we think about it."
    S: "And what PRECISELY is there to think about?"
    L: "Weren't you listening to what he was saying? That's the gambit. Remove the dictator and what fills the void?"
    S: "Ah. You want the throne."
    L: "No. That's not it, no."
    S: "I don't believe you."
    L: "Sylvie... the universe is in the balance. Everything we know to be true, everything. I know the TVA has hurt us both... but what if, by taking him out, we risk unleashing something even worse? All I'm saying is that we just take a minute to think about it."
    Balance is always paid in other peopleís blood. This is literally the definition of the tyrant.
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    I can appreciate the chemistry between the two actors, but if the show plans on deepening/pursuing the relationship angle I really do hope they narratively/metaphysically "distance" Loki and Sylvie a bit further from each other next season. The meme groups I'm in were having a field day with that kiss, and Disney tends to be somewhat reactionary to fan "feedback."

    (Also, funny note from the previous episode - why does a frost giant need a blanket anyway?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Balance is always paid in other peopleís blood. This is literally the definition of the tyrant.
    The same can be said of thoughtless regime change.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The same can be said of thoughtless regime change.
    Nope we have other words for that for they are different concepts even if both are not excellent / arete.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Nope we have other words for that for they are different concepts even if both are not excellent / arete.
    My point is that both result in bloodshed. Loki wants to prevent/minimize that, Sylvie doesn't care.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    My point is that both result in bloodshed. Loki wants to prevent/minimize that, Sylvie doesn't care.
    That is not true

    Spoiler: Has not been a week yet, so spoiler blocks
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    You are asking for a method of Elenchus, also called Elenctic method, or Socratic debate. You are asking for a cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals, to argue the nature of reality, the nature of opinion, and the nature of appearances.

    But you forgot one key fact, He Who Remains does not want those things!

    He has eliminated all rivals, rivals of his own variants, but also he has no one up in his castle besides Miss Minutes. He does not want to have a dialogue or come to a "cooperative" understanding, He Who Remains does not believe in cooperation only pruning, he is a mass murder beyond the ability to put into language. And he likes this creation of his, treating people like objects, and eliminating their ability to think, for any variant he eliminates.

    A solitary person at the end of time who just wants to dominate all of realities in all times, past, present, future, to the point newtonian physics of cause and effect do not work, cause does not lead to effect for he will just go back in time and eliminate whatever he feels is a deviation and thus he has made the time-line into a time-loop.

    He Who Remains is a Sophist. A one man judge and jury who is not able to concieve of himself being wrong for he will just rewrite all of reality to not accept anything else in his narcissism, in his "ground hog's day."

    I say no to "Dr Pangloss" (also called Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz for that is the real life person, and Pangloss was a satire) , He Who Remains may say this is Optimism, that this is the best of all possible worlds, but you can't make a newtonian claim like that when you rewrite cause and effect.

    Was it "REALLY" necessary to eliminate all variants to achieve this goal? If not everything follows than you can't say it was "All For The Best."

    -----

    Yes if Sylvie kills He Who Remains her obligations do not end and it is her moral duty to still help other people. But what He Who Remains offers is not a world free of moral duty of obligation, he has created a system of where you have the duty to die when he says so and you can't argue, you can't change, you must accept the outcome and you are probably not even aware of it happening in the first place.
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-07-20 at 02:12 PM.
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