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Thread: Loki (2021)
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2021-06-13, 07:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
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2021-06-13, 07:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Not technically a spoiler, since I don't know for sure what will happen, but..
Spoiler: spoilernotspoilerWas it not obvious to everyone that at least one of the time keepers in the cartoon is Kang the Conqueror? Most likely, all three are him from different timelines (Immortus, etc.) "The sacred timeline" is definitely on brand for Kang. Obviously, he needs to preserve the timelines in which he was able to seize power. That's why everything that happened in Endgame is fine for the TVA, regardless of how screwed up it makes the multiverse, because he comes to power long after those events.
About the flashbacks, I think it was important for them to give this Loki, the 2012 Loki, an abbreviated form of the character growth that the character had through the later movies. We needed to see him see his mother's death and his reconciliation with Thor, as well as his own death, so he could realize what was really important to him.Last edited by Thrudd; 2021-06-13 at 07:21 AM.
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2021-06-13, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Another way to look at the same Data.
Spoiler: Comic Lore
A) Is that the Time Keepers are separate from Kang.
B) They may be related to The Living Tribunal
(A and B are completely separate and unrelated)C) That Kang based his costume off the Time Keepers.
In sum we really do not know what is going to happen with the MCU based off Comic Lore of 616 and other alternate universes in the Marvel "Multiverse." The MCU gets to decide what stuff it keeps and what stuff it remixes
Takes a nod at the Ultimate 1610 which was in hindsight a horrible project, but we got some good ideas out of it and into the MCU even though most of it was bad and designed for shock value.
Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele
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2021-06-13, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: Loki (2021)
Is it possible this is the prelude to the Secret Wars?
Heroes taken out of time thus allowing deceased heroes to return and villains including Magneto explaining how the X-Men and mutants get introduced to the MCU as they're brought over as a result of this multiversal war?
Is that possible?
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2021-06-13, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-06-13, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
Re: Loki (2021)
Dispute away, but note that those were Kevin Feige’s words not mine.
We try to make the stories unfold in a way that if you are following along and have seen what has preceded it, you’ll be right up to speed. And more importantly, if you haven’t, you’ll be up to speed.So there were lots of conversations with Sam Raimi and and Michael Waldron, and the entire Doctor Strange team, that this movie needs to work for people who watched WandaVision, but more importantly, needs to work for people who didn’t, who maybe Endgame was the last time they saw Wanda, or one of the earlier movies. Or maybe she’s a character they’re meeting for the first time.Spoiler: WandaVision spoilersNow, if you want to argue they haven’t succeeded…I will argue back that it’s a little early to tell. A few lines of dialogue could probably cover most things (‘Who’s this?’ ‘This is The Vision.’ ‘I thought he died?’ ‘He got better!’) but it depends on how much they need to dive into the backstory to make the future movies’ stories make sense. For example, if Wanda’s main contribution to Dr. Strange 2 is to show up and shoot red wiggly-woos at bad guys? They need a lot less backstory included then if part of the plot involves tracking down her children.
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2021-06-13, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
SpoilerA and B don't explain the data, because the center figure of the time keepers definitely looks like a version of Kang. So yes, it could be that his costume is based off of the time keeper. It's possible that the MCU version of the Living Tribunal will be three separate people of whom Kang is one, and who also go by the name of Time Keepers. Or that the idea of the Living Tribunal is being combined with the idea of Kang manipulating the timestream into an MCU specific thing they are calling the Time Keepers.
However, I feel that this is getting more complicated than is likely for the MCU. I think it's most likely that the guy that looks like Kang is going to turn out to be Kang, and therefore the TVA is his creation (or he has taken control of them), for the purpose of doing what Kang is known for: conquering time. We know he is definitely going to appear in the MCU films soon, in Ant Man:Quantumania, apparently.
Also, the Living Tribunal was name dropped once in Doctor Strange, though only peripherally as the name of a magic artifact- so it might have been a throw away easter egg that Feige et al. didn't pay attention to. Or, it might indicate that the Living Tribunal exists in the MCU, by that name, which would mean the Time Keepers of the TVA are likely something separate.
However, I think it would be cool if it turns out Kang is sort of mimicking or posing as an imitation of the Living Tribunal called the Time Keepers, which ends with the reveal of the real Living Tribunal judging him. Of course, that would have to be the end of phase 4 or later
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2021-06-14, 02:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
They got away with it so far. Things were happening between movies anyways, and sometimes we were brought up to speed as you say with a few lines of dialogue. In Infinity War we understood that Wanda had been on the run for a couple of years with Captain America & co., but that she and the Vision (who was not on the run) had been meeting secretely.
But on a broader sense, the MCU now has graduated to a (small) Marvel comics universe of interconnected products, that you no longer need to read all of them them to be able to follow the stories that you're interested in. As a kid I read mostly Spider-man and Fantastic Four comics, plus a little bit of Thor. Sometimes other superheroes crossed over, like Daredevil or Iron Fist, or there were bigger events that I also read, and assuming/accepting that things were going on "off screen" that I was not aware of was never an issue. The same thing will happen going forward with the MCU."Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"
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2021-06-14, 07:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Loki (2021)
We're also talking about two very different versions of "not required viewing".
The first is what the MCU is built on - a large number of movies of which only a few "tentpole" movies are absolutely required. My core list would be something like this:
1) Iron Man
2) The Avengers
3) Captain America: Winter Soldier
4) Avengers: Age of Ultron
5) Captain America: Civil War
6) Avengers: Infinity War
7) Avengers: Endgame
Even if you toss a couple extras in there (GotG is a good shout) you still wind up with only a THIRD of the total MCU movies. Many of them have elements that come into play later like Infinity Stones or Pym Particles, but on the whole you can get by without having seen them. It's also the category I expect to file all the new TV shows. It's important for the universe at large for them to happen, but you can probably get by without them.
That separates them from the second category - the effectively non-canon. All the earlier TV shows fit into this. Phil Coulson never came back from the grave despite doing so in Agents of Shield. Spiderman isn't going to team up with Jessica Jones or Luke Cage. Shang-Chi isn't going to get into a martial-arts battle with Iron Fist. Those TV shows are never going to get referenced again, except maybe with a wink and a nod to the viewers who did see them. Even there I doubt it - there was a perfect opportunity to reference Coulson in the first episode of Loki and they didn't take it.
That's what I was referring to when I talked about required viewing in my earlier post. These shows are as part of the MCU as any of the movies are, which was very much not the case for the earlier TV shows and other adaptations.
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2021-06-14, 08:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: Loki (2021)
Spoiler: Sacred timelineSo, my impression is that the Sacred Timeline is not actually a single timeline, but a bundle that remains more or less on the same trajectory. If it was a single timeline, it would imply that the "big multiversal war" was WON outright, and not just came to a peaceful compromise ending that formed the timecops.
Small variations from one timeline to another within the bundle are fine, as long as key events all happen. Resetting the infinity stones at the end of endgame means that the timelines will be different, but the tools will be in place for events to return to normal. (with the exception of the SPACE timeline that invaded the prime universe, and the loki space stone theft, which we saw what happened to it- sorry ancient one, you got reset through no fault of yours or Banners)
Spoiler: villianI see two places the vengence-against-the-TVA Loki might have come from. One possibility, of course, is the SPACE timeline, where he never dies to Thanos, because Thanos is busy preparing to invade the prime timeline. If Loki used Thanos's tools, he might gain independant universe-hopping powers. But how does he stay ahead of the TVA?
The other possibility, though, I find more interesting. What if... On the ship where Loki is destined to die to Thanos, SOMEONE becomes a variant, and the heroes WIN...and the TVA shows up to "correct" the divergence. Everyone dies except Loki... and "our" loki, from thor 3, just had everything he ever cared about killed by the TVA, AND has the TVA fireteam's equipment.Last edited by Rakaydos; 2021-06-14 at 08:08 AM.
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2021-06-14, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
Re: Loki (2021)
Spoiler: VillainSee, my first assumption is that the Loki that is causing the problems is a future version of the Loki that they just recruited. This is because the Loki that is causing them problems must have known not to underestimate the TVA in order to cause them problems. The most likely reason he knows that is because he met them before. Now he is causing the problems so that they will recruit him in order to stop him thus ensuring that he exists. Things can only get weirder from there.
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2021-06-14, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
SpoilerWhat if... it's a Loki that was recruited by the TVA, saw first-hand that this sacred timeline goes directly against freedom and free will in a way that he ended up going up against the TVA and decided to use the time-resetting devices to get rid of the sacred timeline? (Ergo, our protagonist Loki is the past version of antagonist Loki.)Last edited by Clertar; 2021-06-14 at 08:54 AM.
"Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"
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2021-06-14, 09:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: Loki (2021)
Spoiler: VillianThat's one reason why I dont think Loki was the original variance on the ship, he was just the last survivor of the TVA/Ragnorok crew/Thanos crew 3 way fight. Especially since it's post prime-loki's death, the TVA missed the fact that the variance let loki survive, and wasnt prepared for loki's brand of subtlty in the middle of pitched battle.
But you're right, the self fulfilling prophecy to explain why multiverse starts mattering now and not before is also interesting. It raises questions about how TVA's relationship with the Sacred Timeline, though. (Loki's aprehention happens while Mobeous is investigating an attack, he isnt informed before or after, or even on an "earlier" outing, which implies a certian amout of imposed continuity on TVA itself, which paradox-loki would need to be bypassing.
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2021-06-14, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Put me down in the "important things happened in WandaVision but they can probably get people who skipped it up to speed quickly" camp.
Remember too - Marvel has a habit of recapping the important stuff from the movies they have reason to believe people didn't see. Loki is now home to our third revisitation of the major events of Thor 2, which is frequently listed in the bottom 3 of the MCU if not being the least-seen one. Similarly, Avengers did a very quick getting-up-to-speed on what happened in Incredible Hulk, first using Black Widow and secondly Steve Rogers.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-06-14, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
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2021-06-14, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Spoiler
This was also my assumption. Time stuff already known to be in play, so this is...entirely possible. And maybe a whole lot of fun, with events from both linking up if viewed from the right perspective, Memento style.
I don't want to get too set on it in case it doesn't pan out, but it'd be a lot of fun if it did.
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2021-06-14, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Spoiler
I can't wait to see Loki confront Other Loki. The Snark To Snark Combat will be epic.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2021-06-14, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: Loki (2021)
What's stopping Loki rescuing his mother once he realises Past Thanos went into the future to fight the Avengers after they went time travelling to reverse his Snap?
The more this goes on the more I'm wondering how did Loki end up where that episode started.
And what happened between the scene in Endgame when he escaped with the Space Stone and him arriving in Mongolia?
What if they're wrong and the Loki they have is the one who should have died in Infinity Wars, but was rescued by the time variant Loki and is only now recognising the TVA messed up big time?!
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2021-06-14, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
I'll never forgive how much they absolutely ruined Malekith. He's Joker with portals - unapologetically chaotic evil, insane, has armies of goons, teleports around, murders indiscriminately, and has the time of his life with every conquer-the-nine-realms scheme. And any Doctor could have pulled that off, but Eccleston especially. How do they take THAT, and make it boring?!
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-06-14, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
The protag Loki has too much ego and misplaced confidence after being picked up by the TVA to be anything but the 2012 Loki. A IW Loki would either be less egotistical, or if prepared to play a part, less shocked when things dont go his way.
The time gap between 2012 Loki vanishing in NY and appearing in Mongolia is an interesting point, though. The TVA cant prune the timeline while Stark, Banner, Ant and Cap are still in it, because their actions are authorized. How much time passes in Endgame between Loki's escape, and the heroes leaving the timeline?
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2021-06-14, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Man, this whole time thing is gonna make Cap goin' back to live a full life frigging weird again, isn't it?
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2021-06-14, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
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2021-06-14, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Hell, the TVA could have been the ones to pick him up from his "branch" and drop him off on that bench back in the Prime so that he could pass on the shield. If anything, this explains how Steve got back even more easily than our prior theories.
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2021-06-14, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Forgot my other speculatory thought.
Spoiler: Old hatI realize that any variance should be expected to involve time travel. I still got the impression during processing that they've seen a lot of Loki variants. I bet he goes off script a lot. He seems like the type. Totally explainable as in-episode foreshadowing because there is actually another Loki. If there are two now, there are probably others, past, present, or future. Time is weird in the TVA.
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2021-06-14, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-06-14, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
I wonder why Hunter B-15 doesn't have a given name, even in the cast page? The judge has a name, despite getting less screening. Heck, they even bothered to give the file clerk a name.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2021-06-14, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
Re: Loki (2021)
My understanding is that nothing happened between those scenes. That's 2012 Loki crashing in 2012 Mongolia. You can see the remnants of the restraints he was in as debris around him, and the first thing he does is pull of the gag Thor just put on him.
Considering that the workers of the TVA were created from whole cloth by the Time Keepers, I don't see any reason her given name can't be Hunter B-15.
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2021-06-14, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2021-06-14, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
Re: Loki (2021)
Possibly, but I notice that Mobius, Casey, and Ravonna all have jobs in which they're expected to converse with people outside the agency (investigator, receptionist, and judge, respectively). So it might be entirely utility-based; outsider-like names for outsider-facing positions.
(Side note: Given what we've seen of the TVA so far, I assume they consider all of their workers disposable; replaceable parts of the machine protecting the timeline).
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2021-06-14, 11:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Loki (2021)
Wait, the Judge's name is Ravonna? I didn't pay attention to the credits lol. Well, I don't see any way that Kang isn't going to be involved in this now, though I had few doubts. He might not actually appear or be introduced yet, but there's no way he isn't mixed up with the TVA somehow (I still think the Time Keepers are actually a council of Kangs).