Settlements and Alignments

[Behold_the_Void]

I've been doing some worldbuilding recently, and I'm coming on an interesting question regarding alignments. I'm going to give a few examples here, based off some of the more extreme racial alignment cases (Dwarves and Orcs, in this case). I'm looking for opinions on how I should treat this, since I have a number of ideas myself and am not sure what I want to go with.

So let's start with the orcs. Orcs are by definition "often chaotic evil," which is a pretty severe alignment in many cases.

Now, the Monster Manual classifies them as "aggressive humanoids that raid, pillage and battle other creatures."

In the setting I have going with a lot of strong empires, while there is still the definite aspect of raiding and pillaging that I will likely preserve with most of the "savage humanoids".

However, we've got communities of orcs that are not particularly capable of raiding, especially if they're neighbors with rather powerful human, elven or dwarven empires.

Now, according to the blurb in the Monster Manual Gruumsh does not at all tolerate peaceful behavior from his people. However, since I'm more than happy to bend D&D Black-and-White Morality, I'm altering it so that Gruumsh isn't going to smite each and every orc community that doesn't go out and slaughter x non-orcs in x days. I am assuming here that some orcs are able to make martially capable but primarily agriculture or hunter-gatherer-based communities, as they lack the manpower to make proper raids.

Now, these orcs, being good servants of Gruumsh, have been properly socialized in the orc way. They hate elves and dwarves and humans (although many of them probably don't even know what the former two are, as they are unlikely to ever come in contact with them in their lives), believe orcs are the greatest thing ever, etc. etc..

They're also more or less peasants. Agriculturists, hunter-gatherers or what have you, their primary concern is making sure their village sustains itself and they can go about their lives.

How do they ping on a detect spell? Are they chaotic evil? Are they even evil? Socialized orc prejudices notwithstanding, they're mainly a bunch of dudes who want to get on with their farming. The DMG, as I recall, tends to identify most peasant-types as neutral. Not particularly good but not horrendously bad either.

Now let's take a look at the Dwarves. Same deal here, good followers of Moradin, honor thy clan, be good, upstanding and contributing members of dwarven society, forge lotsa stuff, whatever. But even then, this community is more or less peasants. They too have their own inherent prejudices, they hate goblinoids and giants, distrust elves, tend to be isolationist and somewhat surly with strangers. Do these guys ping as Lawful Good? Or even lawful or good?

[JaxGaret]

The simple answer is that they ping as whatever they are.

You, as the DM, decide what the dominant alignment of a community is, and what the alignment of each specific person is.

If you envision your Orcs as Neutral Agrarians, then by golly, that's what they are.

If you picture your Dwarves as not-so-Good, then by the same token, there are going to be plenty of Neutral Dwarves mixed in with the Good ones. It's up to you whether or not they are Lawful, but it's easy to just go with the status quo and say that Dwarves are Lawful. It's the whole sticking-to-tradtions thing, an aversion to change, that makes them "usually Lawful".

[geek_2049]

It's all up to you, it's your world after all.

You could have powerful empires and frontier land, they are not mutually exclusive. You could have Orcs residing in the frontier land and have the dwarves, elves , and humans encroaching on their territory, hence the orcs resort to raiding. You could have the orcs with their -4 to int/+4 str try to bully the other races into giving their valuables and food. You could have some BBEG influencing the orcs for some nefarious scheme.

I played in a game world where orcs became extinct. I played in another world where most orcs were CE, but a continent of millions of orcs were LE, there were even some paladins. The LE orcs favored class was fighter.

To answer your question each individual pings what their respective alignment is. Many, but not all PHB orcs will ping as CE, elves will usually be CG, etc.

[Blanks]

I am assuming here that some orcs are able to make martially capable but primarily agriculture or hunter-gatherer-based communities, as they lack the manpower to make proper raids.

My emphasis.

The orcs are evil because they WANT to murder, rape and pillage, they just can't.

The dwarves just want to be left alone, even if they are the most impressive military might on earth. They are strange but not evil.
They don't like elves but unless they kill them on sight, they aren't evil. Good people can hate too, just not act too strongly on the impulse :)
They slaughter orcs on sight, because they have learned that orcs do that. Thats not evil thats logic.

This argument holds true if you see evil as "evil intentions". If you define evil as "evil actions", then they are both good.

[bosssmiley]

The Trollman bros' "Races of War" on the WOTC forums has something good on this very subject. Basically a whole section on why racial cultures are certain alignments, and how this makes them act in.

In many respect it's just retro-fitting a rationalisation onto our existing cliches: but it adds verisimilitude, which is always good.

[shadow_archmagi]

Very interesting.. thank you for that link.

[Dhavaer]

I concur. That's a very interesting link.

[Riffington]

Another point, most communities have figured out a way to live with each other. But you can tell a lot about their morality by the way they treat strangers who visit. If you visit (assuming you don't appear to be some kind of asskicking machine), do they make sure you have food and shelter, and help you on your journey? Do they try to exploit you and charge you exorbitant amounts because they know you have nowhere else to turn? Do they rape/kill you because you are defenseless? Etc.
If Dwarves are surly in the sense that they'll feed you, but expect payment if you have it, and will help you get an extra early start next morning... fine.
If they go further than that in lack of hospitality, then they aren't Good.

[Saithis Bladewing]

This is why I eliminated racial 'archetypes' and tend to mostly do away with alignments in general...

I think others put it best - orcs ping as whatever the DM wants them to. If they're basically "good" people with some cultural biases, they're probably neutral (good meaning innocent, they don't cause crimes as a general rule, they take care of themselves, their family and their community. Generally, I believe most "people" are "good", they just probably wouldn't ping as good on the alignment scale due to a lack of enthusiastic willingness to sacrifice their own good for others. Give a person a choice between doing the obviously wrong thing and the obviously right thing, they're most likely to pick the right thing for any myriad of reasons.)

[puppyavenger]

Wait doesen't "often chaotic evil" mean only around 40% of them are chaotic evil?

[JaxGaret]

The Trollman bros' "Races of War" on the WOTC forums has something good on this very subject. Basically a whole section on why racial cultures are certain alignments, and how this makes them act in.

In many respect it's just retro-fitting a rationalisation onto our existing cliches: but it adds verisimilitude, which is always good.

That link rocks my socks.

[Roderick_BR]

You could use the alignment entry in the MM as a general guideline, and the interspecies hatred more like a prejudice form. It means that a dwarf won't attack an orc on sight, but is likely to treat him coldly, or worse. Maybe change bonus to attack/AC/damage for bonus in skill checks to fit the flavor better.
If you claim a society is of is some alignment, it means the majority acts like that, but others individuals are common.

If you like numbers, here's quick table to base off, assuming LG as the majority.
More common: Either Lawful, or Good:
LG: 25%
NG: 15%
LN: 15%
More common: Part either Lawful, or Good, and part opposite:
CG: 10%
LE: 10%
Nor lawful nor neutral:
NN: 10%
part nor lawful nor neutral, and part opposite:
CN: 5%
NE: 5%
Complete opposite of the majority:
CE: 5%
If you sum everything, you can get the following results:
Good/Evil axis:
Good: 50%
Neutral: 30%
Evil:20%
Law/Chaos axis
Lawful: 50%
Neutral: 30%
Chaotic: 20%

This is a basic guideline for generic large cities. Adjust as you see fit.
Move some numbers around according to race or local (dwarves from one city could be a bit more chaotic than dwarves in another city).
Same things with orcs. You can have a good deal of evil individuals in a city, while keeping the majority neutral, or even good.